I'm curious as to where people find out how prestigious an APA-accredited site is. I've heard others say about site X or Y something like "Oh, that's a very prestigious site," and I'm like, "how do they know that?". I was even on an internship interview and someone mentioned that they believed they should be listed on some website that tells you which APA-accredited internships are research-heavy (in addition to a clinical focus). Anybody got any clues? Googling didn't provide any answers, nor did I find any information on these forums!
Prestigious internship sites
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I would argue that "prestigious" is subjective. If by that you mean heavily research-focused sites, I believe that there is a list on the Academy of Clinical Science's webpage or whatever you call that group.
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You won't find this information because it does not exist and varies depending on so many variables. For example, a certain site can have the top researcher in the world in your specific area, say for emotion regulation and trauma studies, but only average faculty for other content areas. So, it could be very prestigious for certain people, and just mediocre for many others. Like, for neuro, many of us could give you a list of our top 10s in the country, and it'd overlap to some extent, given some geographic variability and bias, but many of those sites may just have average training for other content areas. It's highly subjective and dependent on your focus.
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There are certainly sites that have strong reputations across the field (e.g., Brown, U. Maryland Counseling Center, Yale, Western Psych, Minneapolis VA, Houston VA, Palo Alto VA, etc.) but the strength of recognition will also vary by specialty asked to rank the site. Some of these will stand out more than others as 'great sites'. Frequently internship sites with a lot of praise by those in academic settings will be tied to strong research tracked programs - often at the flagship institutions or prestigious universities. But 'how prestigious' isn't really a thing and will vary by your area of focus. In my view, the reason that research focused internships get a more general 'prestigious' label is that academics know research so it's within our specialty.
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For clinical work: It's mostly just name recognition This could be conceptualized as either by institution or who is on staff. If you're a patient, then that name might mean something to you. If you're an institution or provider, the name on staff might mean something to you. I know a few people who have made a career out of having an Ivy or a big name attached to their CV.
For research work: It's a small, small, small world. As you progress in your training and career, you'll be repeatedly exposed to author's names. You'll form an opinion of the quality of their work. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. But you'll at least respect that only a few are publishing all the damn time. So when you see a site associated with such a name, you'll know it's a better place to learn about that area of research.
For research work: It's a small, small, small world. As you progress in your training and career, you'll be repeatedly exposed to author's names. You'll form an opinion of the quality of their work. Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad. But you'll at least respect that only a few are publishing all the damn time. So when you see a site associated with such a name, you'll know it's a better place to learn about that area of research.
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It typically matters very little. Fit is most important. To extend upon WisNeuro’s post, within a speciality area there are sites that are thought of above others, but internship should be more about rounding out clinical training and getting the necessary hours to put towards licensure (i.e. hoop jumping).
I valued fit over name recognition, even though I wanted to rank based on perceived prestige....and it all worked out. N=1, obviously. IMHO....fellowship/post-doc is the far more important name.
I valued fit over name recognition, even though I wanted to rank based on perceived prestige....and it all worked out. N=1, obviously. IMHO....fellowship/post-doc is the far more important name.
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It is also worth mentioning that, as in anything else, there is significant variability among even the "top" sites, so fit is important in this small subset as well. And some places are not all they are cracked up to be, resting on their laurels more than others.
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I think there is also a different dynamic now that 25%+ of applicants don’t get squeezed bc of an imbalance....like it was for some of us 8-12+ years ago.
*walked up hill to and from the post office to mail PAPER applications*
I don’t have useful advice as to the current challenges and nuances, but fit still seems to be a big part of it (as it should). Best of luck OP!
*walked up hill to and from the post office to mail PAPER applications*
I don’t have useful advice as to the current challenges and nuances, but fit still seems to be a big part of it (as it should). Best of luck OP!
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I think the brand name recognition can matter. Having a brand name Internship and postdoc site helped me get a brand name first job. There is zero requirement to care about that kind of stuff, of course. I wanted it because I don’t know where I will ultimately settle so wanted a shiny CV so I could move around the country easier.
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Fancy names only matter in some circumstances. Especially for certain specialties. There are certain brand name/Ivy/etc placements for neuro that are well known in the field to be mediocre at best, absolute trash at worst. I'd worry about the training experiences you'll get over the name, any day.
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In my case (back in the paper applications spread all over the floor days), my advisor/mentor steered me towards and groomed me for specific “Big name” internships almost from the first time I walked through the door. She introduced me to the internship faculty at conferences as well as encouraged them to attend my presentations and posters. There were 2-3 internships that I was expected to apply to, and I knew this from the get go.
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I had a neuropsych supervisor who gave me a list of top neuro sites and strongly encouraged me to apply to them. To her credit, she also made introductions in the months leading up to my application cycle for quite a few of them. I then ran the list by my mentor and he helped me identify some additional sites that had a more rehab slant to help round out my training, and that’s how I came up with my list. Fit was a big part of it and I got interviews at 11 of the 14 sites I applied (2 sites had multiple tracks, so I ultimately ranked 13 spots for match).
My internship mentor also emailed/called around to a number of top fellowship sites and made introductions in the Fall, which really helped me narrow my apps both within and outside of the neuro match. I had 12 or so, interviewed mostly at the conference and did a few phone interviews.
My internship mentor also emailed/called around to a number of top fellowship sites and made introductions in the Fall, which really helped me narrow my apps both within and outside of the neuro match. I had 12 or so, interviewed mostly at the conference and did a few phone interviews.
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Would you mind sharing the names of these not-so-great training sites with great brand recognition?
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Not publicly, neuro is a small world, and I'm not exactly anonymous on here.
Thanks to everyone for your input. It was actually very helpful to see the variety of responses. I'd only heard of a couple of sites myself prior to the application cycle, so I was surprised at how overwhelmingly random the site selection process seemed when I was first attempting to narrow the list down.
When it comes to rankings, I've haven't been able to quite figure out my top 1 and 2. Both sites offer similar clinical experiences and research time. One of them is listed on the Academy of Clinical Sciences webpage as a member, and name recognition is important to me. I think I actually prefer the one without name recognition, but I worry that it may actually have a bad reputation in the field and I'm just unaware of it. Neither my DCT nor mentor had heard of the site (although they weren't surprised there was a site there). I'd be comforted to find out that post-doc name recognition really does hold more water than internship.
When it comes to rankings, I've haven't been able to quite figure out my top 1 and 2. Both sites offer similar clinical experiences and research time. One of them is listed on the Academy of Clinical Sciences webpage as a member, and name recognition is important to me. I think I actually prefer the one without name recognition, but I worry that it may actually have a bad reputation in the field and I'm just unaware of it. Neither my DCT nor mentor had heard of the site (although they weren't surprised there was a site there). I'd be comforted to find out that post-doc name recognition really does hold more water than internship.
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Would you be willing to PM the names of some of these neuro sites? I am in the process of looking over my final ranking list (for the 100th time) and it might be helpful for me in moving some of my rankings.
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For what it's worth, I actually very intentionally ranked NON-prestigious internship sites at the top of my list and the more prestigious ones (Brown, U of Washington) in the middle of my list. I basically decided that I wanted good training at a site that seemed trainee-focused with reasonable workload and hours, and emphasis on work-life balance. I assumed (rightly so) that internship wouldn't matter to me for getting an academic job. Now, for post-docs or clinical jobs, that may be a different story, but for academic jobs? Nah, no one cares. I decided to emphasize having a really clinically-focused year instead of trying to do research on top of that. I definitely made the right choice for myself!!
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BIG +1. I did the same thing. No regrets. The life balance was fantastic.
Ironically, I am skeptical other sites would have provided me with the same research opportunities that my non-prestigious internship did (I'm on multiple papers conducting treatment studies on EBPs and assessment use because of my choice, all as first author).
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I did this too, to the chagrin of at least one of my letter writers. I ended up at a generalist site (respectable VA w quality staff) bc I ranked powerhouse R1 medical centers (e.g. MGH/Boston Consortium, Brown, OU Health, etc) lower bc I trusted fit over prestige.
The generalist site provided a solid work -life balance and it felt like a family (most staff were there 10-20+ years, team pot lucks, bbq at DCTs, etc). Our DCT required us to use all vacation and sick time once we met our training goals bc she knew we could use some time off.
I didn’t appreciate it at the time, but I benefited from doing more out-pt individual & group therapy. My DCT was spot on when she pushed me to do PE, CPT, and take on challenging cases....even though I was resistant bc I just wanted to focus on assessment. I actually learned to enjoy working w really challenging cases, which helped me down the road in my jobs.
While intervention is <10% of my current practice, those therapy rotations really helped me with treatment planning and it kept me sharp. It also helped me with my supervision abilities bc there is so much more nuance in treatment than assessment.
As for fellowship/post-doc...I only looked at top-notch AMCs and I put in the long hours for two years to get my pick of faculty positions. Internship checks a box, fellowship builds a bridge to your first job.
Yes, applicants should definitely rank with more than just prestige in mind, but don't necessarily dismiss training at a well known site. Fwiw, I'll add that not all "prestigious"/"research focused" places are poor fits for more clinically focused people; they don't have to mean sacrificing good clinical training. It's a clinical year, and that doesn't change dramatically at most places. I ended up at one of these programs (it was high on my list, but not first) and I received excellent clinical training and many folks went on to more clinical careers. The hours were also very manageable and the environment was healthy. In fact, the faculty exemplified the scientist-practitioner model, and I have not seen that as well done anywhere else.
I say the above because I almost ditched even applying to the site I ultimately matched to because of the (imo, misguided) reasons outlined above, and I've seen others doing the same. Some places do earn their reputation (and of course, some... meh), so make an individualized decision. The message here is still "fit fit fit," just more nuanced.
I say the above because I almost ditched even applying to the site I ultimately matched to because of the (imo, misguided) reasons outlined above, and I've seen others doing the same. Some places do earn their reputation (and of course, some... meh), so make an individualized decision. The message here is still "fit fit fit," just more nuanced.
This is all very good to hear. The non-prestigious site I've ranked above the well-known one has a prolific researcher in my area, and previous interns seem to have gotten a lot of first-authored papers while on internship there. I realize this year is mostly focused on clinical work (regardless of site), but I was really hoping to boost my first-authored papers. It's possible I could do that at the other more prestigious site, but I wouldn't have the direct mentorship that other site has. And I definitely want that academic job down the road!
