Prestigious?

[mustang]

I am a senior in high school and I am in the process of applying to undergrad universities. I plan on majoring in biochemistry and then going on to med school. My ultimate goal is to become a surgeon (I know I still have a long, long road ahead).

Although many people say that the name of the undergrad university does not matter, I know that students that study in a prestigious university have a better chance of getting into the top med schools. After all, in an application you try to sell yourself to the school. So someone that goes to Harvard obviously has a better chance at getting in than someone who goes to a small state university.

One of the universities that I will be applying to is Washington University in St. Louis. This school has one of the top medical programs in the nation and I would assume that its undergraduate programs should be good as well. Yet, from what I've seen, this university doesn't really have the much name recognition. No one seems to know about it.

My question goes to anyone that has had experience with WashU. I would like to know of your experience there. Is their undergrad as good as the med school? Also, how does this school compare to the "prestigious Ivies"? If you ask anyone about Cornell, they will say that it's one of the best schools in the US. Ask them about Washington University in St. Louis and they will have no idea, yet it is ranked above Cornell in US news. Is this lack of name recognition justified?

Thanks

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[indianboy]

Washington University is a fine University, and you are right, prestige does matter. Regardless what the rankings are, there are some schools that are considered to be 'better' for whatever reason. However, rest assured that an adcom will be familiar with a school like Washington Univeristy, and will be recognized. While you won't get the 'wow' factor that say Harvard or Yale has, you will get a great education that will be a jumping point to bigger and better things. I wouldn't put too much stock in the difference between Cornell and Washington University either. The other thing to consider is that Washington U gives out great merit scholarships, something to consider if you are headed down such a long and expensive road.

 

[CatsAreKillers]

Hi mustang,

Washington U of St. Louis is unique in that it has a great medical school, but it's undegrad isn't a "Top 10" school and even though it has a decent undergrad, NO ONE has ever heard of the school. I went through this discussion with how hardly anyone knows the difference between Penn State University and University of Pennsylvania....and Wash U is waaaaay worse off.....like hardly anyone knows of Wash U unless they're from that region (or students like us that are in the "market").

Then there are other undergrad schools like Chicago or Georgetown. Other than the Ivies, these are two of the most prestigious schools around....for their undergrad names (and for some grad programs), but their medical schools aren't "Top 15".

Undergrad is where you find "name recognition" usually. Brown and Dartmouth have the WOW factor for their undergrads (they are two of the best in the country), but again, their medical schools aren't even "Top 30".

Originally posted by mustang
I am a senior in high school and I am in the process of applying to undergrad universities. I plan on majoring in biochemistry and then going on to med school. My ultimate goal is to become a surgeon (I know I still have a long, long road ahead).

Although many people say that the name of the undergrad university does not matter, I know that students that study in a prestigious university have a better chance of getting into the top med schools. After all, in an application you try to sell yourself to the school. So someone that goes to Harvard obviously has a better chance at getting in than someone who goes to a small state university.

One of the universities that I will be applying to is Washington University in St. Louis. This school has one of the top medical programs in the nation and I would assume that its undergraduate programs should be good as well. Yet, from what I've seen, this university doesn't really have the much name recognition. No one seems to know about it.

My question goes to anyone that has had experience with WashU. I would like to know of your experience there. Is their undergrad as good as the med school? Also, how does this school compare to the "prestigious Ivies"? If you ask anyone about Cornell, they will say that it's one of the best schools in the US. Ask them about Washington University in St. Louis and they will have no idea, yet it is ranked above Cornell in US news. Is this lack of name recognition justified?

Thanks

 

[doepug]

Wash U is very well known in the medical community, and as such, a WU degree will carry you far when applying to medical school. WU provides an outstanding education, and its prestige is known very well among medical/science types.

It is just a matter of time before WU gets their name out... now that they're ranked #12 for undergrad, they're getting all kinds of applications. In fact, I interviewed a number of applicants this year.

WU isn't easy; in fact, I worked considerably harder in college than in med school. I think the other 3 people from WU in my medical school class would agree. If you're serious about becoming a doctor, WU is a wise choice. It is an outstanding school that has been underrated for far too long.

Cheers,

doepug
AB, Washington University, 2000
MD, Johns Hopkins, 2004

 

[pbehzad]

WashU has a great name. Its right under the Ivy league schools, but honestly it is better than some of the Ivy league schools, like Brown, Cornell,Darthmouth. I think going to WashU makes you competitive with Ivy-league students. But also realize that WashU is an extremely competitive school, and they are really going to work your @$$ off to get a good gpa. Everyone will be pre-med, and the weed out classes will be alot more difficult than at a public school (im sure you know this and will be able to do fine). However, sometimes i wonder if it was worth it to go to a top 20 school where my gpa would be lower compared to going to my state school where i could probably get a 4.0 or very high gpa. Well good luck.

 

[Trajan]

I would argue that for the purposes of applying to medical schools, there are two types of colleges, prestigious and not prestigious. I don't think that a medical school admissions committee looks at Harvard, Dartmouth, Stanford, Williams, Bowdoin, WashU, or U. Chicago and favors the applicants according to the rankings w/r/t US News, acceptance rates, etc. Rather, an applicant from any of these places is seen as someone who attended a rigorous college, and that's really all there is to it, in my opinion.

I would also point out that one can get into any medical school from just about any college if he has the right stuff. However, being an applicant from this prestigious group of schools is a great plus, but if you want to attend one of them, be sure to find one that fits you. When I was in high school, my final college choice came down to three very different colleges: Johns Hopkins, Univ. of Chicago, and Middlebury College. All are great schools and very well respected by graduate and professional programs, but the first two are, perhaps, better known to the general public. However, I chose to attend Middlebury, as I thought that it was a better match for me. I was right. Five years later, after a wonderful academic experience, I applied to medical school and was accepted rather early in the process. Had I attended Hopkins, I probably would have been miserable because I was a bad match for the school, and I might have blamed it on being premed and not have even made it to the application stage. The point is that you should be concerned about attending a strong college, but one shouldn't worry about the relative rankings within this group of 50 or so institutions (one of which IS WashU). Rather, one simply should find a good match (which, admittedly, isn't always an easy thing to do when you are 18).

Best of luck to you.

 

[Premed2003]

Do not be deterred by what people feel is "weed out." The people who decide not to become a doctor are often those who find that they are not interested in science anymore. Hence, they do not study and do poorly on exams. They finish the introductory chemistry and never move on to orgo because they have no interest in continuing. Very few people at these top schools do not have the brain power to excel as a doctor. Becoming a doctor, however, requires a passion not only for the science, but also for the profession -- helping people through clinical care.

Do not be scared that you won't make it at a top school. Do not go to a state school just because you think you'll get all A's and you're afraid to fail. You will not fail if you work hard. I would always want to be in the best learning environment -- a place where everyone has a passion for learning and other passions beyond academics. This brings the best out of you. The experience of college is more than getting As. And if you work hard and are dedicated to doing well, you will get those As.

I can also attest to the importance of a prestigious name to getting into med schools. I know people try to think that it doesn't matter, but it definitely does make a difference. Of course, people from a variety of schools get into top med schools (or any med school for that matter). However, the prestige of the undergrad institution is also important. I have been fortunate to get into a few top 20 schools already, and I flubbed an MCAT section (7 verbal). I can assure you that I would not have gotten into one of these schools if I had not gotten As at Princeton. If it had only been As at my state school, I would not have been given this opportunity. At Princeton, my top grades are top against the brightest (for the most part) students in the nation. They all work hard and are smart. At a state school, however, some students work hard, but it is certainly not 100% of the class -- which is the case at Princeton (well, not 100% but close to it)

Therefore, do not choose a school based on a fear of failure. If you want to succeed, you will.

 

[Jacobim]

I know a lot of people that go to state schools that are not really that "prestigious" but were admitted to all the top medical schools. Your scores, GPA, and activities are what is important.

 

[Premed2003]

Yes, but they are the exception, not the rule.

But most importantly, it is the college experience that should be treasured -- not simple a road to a top med school. State schools do not offer anything that top schools offer -- the small classes, the accessibility of profs, the amazing other students, the unity of the class, the extracurricular opportunities, just the entire feeling of being in this environment where you can learn anything and everything. State schools are too big and impersonal for this type of environment.

 

[Mutterkuchen]

I attended Podunk Missouri State University for undergrad and am doing a Masters at Wash U. Although I think that Wash U is a good solid school, I would recommend going to your state institute. The extra money that I am paying for Wash U is not worth it, and I am only getting a marginally better education than I got at Podunk State. I think that everyone who attends an expensive private school thinks their school is giving them a better education. "This is costing so much it must be better."

I disagree with this. If I had to do it over again, I would go to my brand name state university, in my case, the university of Illinois. Incidentally, ALL (yes ALL) of my premed acquantances who went to Podunk State, got into medical school, with acceptances to Vanderbilt, Wash U, Hopkins, Yale, etc. They did this by scoring very well on the MCAT, getting a great GPA, and doing amazing things outside of the medical field. I do not think that they are the exception. Incidentally, my MCAT kind of sucked and I have been accepted to Creighton, and expect a few more.

Unless you have a major scholarship, I would save your money and go to UF or Miami.

 

[mustang]

Wow, if you worked considerably harder in college (WashU undergrad) than in med school (John Hopkins), then WashU HAS to be better than most people think it is.
This would lead one to believe that Washington University is better than just a "good solid school" and that paying the extra money WOULD be worth it.
Maybe the difference between JBJ and doepug's opinion deals with the area in which they majored.
I would think that a university with a top med school would have a really good Bio, chem, and physics undergrad departments. If this is so, is WashU deficient in other areas?
JBJ, why is it that WashU only gave you a marginally better education? Where would you say is lacking in this school?
Also, how is St. Louis and the campus life?
Thanks, I appreciate the help.

 

[LoneCoyote]

Originally posted by Premed2003
Yes, but they are the exception, not the rule.

But most importantly, it is the college experience that should be treasured -- not simple a road to a top med school. State schools do not offer anything that top schools offer -- the small classes, the accessibility of profs, the amazing other students, the unity of the class, the extracurricular opportunities, just the entire feeling of being in this environment where you can learn anything and everything. State schools are too big and impersonal for this type of environment.

Having both graduated from a top 5 liberal arts college and now doing post-bac at a large state school I would have to disagree with this statement. State school is what you make of it, and most state school have honors programs that are full of people who had the stats to go to an ivy or an other highly ranked college and chose to go to state school, often for monetary reasons, or for other reasons. I have met people here who are more motivated and brilliant than people I went to school with in undergrad. So you can definitely be surrounded by very smart, motivated people and learn a lot. Plus, since you are motivated while many of the other students around you may not be, I have found it easier to access professors. At an elite school you may be one of 100 smart, motivated students clamoring for a professors attention. At a state school if you make the effort to show you are interested and go ot office hour, it often will be rewarded. Not to say all professors at a state school are great. Some definitely follow the stereotype of being more interested in research than teaching. But I had some pretty bad professors at my elite college too, so there are bad apples everywhere. And if you are interested in research you can often have access to really top people who do great work at larger state schools. Opportunities for extracurriculars are very widespread, and are definitely more varied than they were at my undergrad, mostly due to the vast size difference in the institutions. With more people, there will be more clubs, activities, etc. Both have their positives and negatives and you will probably need to work a bit harder to find your niche at a state school, and you will have to put up with being in large classes, especially in the basic sciences. But it shouldn't be written off as full of stupid people and totally impersonal. It's definitely what you make of the experience.

 

[doepug]

Originally posted by mustang

Wow, if you worked considerably harder in college (WashU undergrad) than in med school (Johns Hopkins), then WashU HAS to be better than most people think it is.

WU is truly an underrated school. For what it's worth, I know plenty of people who worked harder in college, though.

This would lead one to believe that Washington University is better than just a "good solid school" and that paying the extra money WOULD be worth it.

I think it is. I was fortunate enough to get one of WU's scholarships (they buy several of their students), but I still would've paid quite a bit of $$ to go there.

Maybe the difference between JBJ and doepug's opinion deals with the area in which they majored.

JBJ mentioned that they're getting a master's degree. I'd contend that JBJ hasn't really experienced WU the way an undergrad does, and that JBJ's reflections are not representative of what most WU students think.

I would think that a university with a top med school would have a really good Bio, chem, and physics undergrad departments. If this is so, is WashU deficient in other areas?

Not really... WU has very strong humanities programs in addition to highly regarded undergraduate programs in art, architecture, engineering, and business. I think WU's greatest weakness is that they don't have a journalism program.

Also, how is St. Louis and the campus life?

I didn't think I'd like St Louis, but I ended up loving it. It's a fabulous city that abounds with restaurants and cultural activities, and it's cheap! St Louis is one of the last few truly affordable cities in the US.

Thanks, I appreciate the help.

You're welcome. Feel free to PM me with other questions about WU.

Cheers,

doepug
MS III, Johns Hopkins

 

[surfdevl02]

Forget Wash U. and the Ivy's....for the best of academics and college sports go to Duke!

 

[MedicinePunkin]

That's right!!!! Duke "the most wellrounded Ivy" in the nation. Jason Williams, Shane Battier etc

 

[mustang]

I remember reading about WashU up in a site that ranks universities. They said that WashU doesn't accept applications that are "over qualified" because many people that apply to the Ivies apply to WashU as a back up. I'm not saying that my application would be over qualified but any university that doesn't admit students because they think that the student is too good to go there has a big problem. I'm sure that this web site was probably crap and had no authority but I can't really remember where it was. Has anyone ever heard of a school doing this? Although this sounds absurd, it might me true for a school that's trying to cut down on the number of students that get accepted but don't enroll. Is WashU in this boat?
Thanks

 

[shamthis]

Originally posted by pbehzad
WashU has a great name. Its right under the Ivy league schools, but honestly it is better than some of the Ivy league schools, like Brown, Cornell,Darthmouth.

What defines 'better' and who's to say WashU is "right under this" and "better than that"? That's right, P. Behzad.

 

[Jacobim]

Premed2003 doesn't know what he/she is talking about.

 

[Premed2003]

Really? Have you had the experience of a top school education? You can only know how incredible it is if you have had this experience.

Too often people want to make themselves feel better that a state school is giving them a great education -- with huge classes and few professors caring about the students -- and students who don't care about learning. I just can't imagine myself in that type of environment -- high school all over again.

There are great state schools (UMich, UVA), but they're all huge. You cannot have the intimacy of a top college when there are 50,000 students at the school.

 

[Jacobim]

Clearly, the more prestigious schools are MUCH better than state schools. But for getting into good med schools, the topic of this post, state schools can be adequate (plus can offer lower costs).

I agree that you have probably have had a lot of benefits going to a more prestigious private school. I, for the record, am not one to boast about most state schools. I didn't mean that to be as harsh as it was...

 

[Premed2003]

I'm trying to emphasize that undergrad is not just for getting into med school. Ivy schools certainly help getting into med school.

However, each year during your undergrad time, you should not think "Oh, this is good for med school. Okay, a state school is going to get me into this med school" The undergrad times is for learning and exploring and discoviering and living. It's not just a road to med school.

Therefore, high school students should choose a school based on the undergrad experience -- not based on "will washu get me into a med school more than cornell?" Either school will get you into a good med school, but choose the school that offers you the opportunities that you want.

Personally, I would not choose Cornell or Washu because Cornell is supposed to be high stress in a rural environment, and it is huge. I would prefer any of the other Ivies because they are more intimate with more professor access.

 

[shamthis]

ooh...oohhhh...stress stress i cant handle the stress...."Big Red Stress.."....oohh I can't take the pain.

Premed2003. If you cant take the stress of undergrad maybe medicine isnt the right direction for you.

As you can probably tell this entire thread is infuriating me. It's pointless to argue one school over the next. For the most part we're comparing apples and oranges, and who can say if "Cornell" is better than Wash U. Cornell has 7 Colleges within. Who's to say you can't approach professors at Cornell. Some courses like Psych 101 are huge but upper level classes have 10-20 enrollees, tops.

"I can't take the stresss...AAAAHHH" Get a f'n life. "Will Wash U get me into a better med school than Cornell?" Ech.

The naivete on these boards overwhelms me...for Christ's sake go where you'll prosper. Every institution is what you make of it.

 

[Mutterkuchen]

I have not had a bad experience at Wash U, and I fully admit that my experience is very different than doepug, since I am a grad student and s/he was an undergrad. I just don't see how you can justify paying $20,000 a year more for a similar experience. If you have a full ride or a scholarship that brings the price similar to a state school, by all means take advantage of it. If not, have the $80,000. That is a ton of money.

Here is what I contend:

-Most states offer education at a similar quality to that of most private schools, for a lot less.

-You can get the intimacy that premed2003 describes at some state schools. 7 years after graduating, I still get personal, handwritten letters, Christmas cards, email from several professors that knew well. As an undergrad, I lived in a professor's house for a summer in exchange for painting it. I spent many hours at another's house drinking wine and making a fool of myself reading poetry. My school was MUCH smaller than 50,000.

-The only degree that really matters in your "pedigree" is the final, terminal degree.

-Acecdotally, the students that I spent time with were the ones driven to succeed, and they were accepted into prestigious medical schools and graduate programs.

-Most students that attend private schools think that their education is much better than public ones, because they are paying so much (at $25,000 a year, its got to be better, right?) I do not begrudge people of thinking that their alma mater is the best. There is nothing wrong with loyalty.

-As quoted by premed2003 "Too often people want to make themselves feel better that a state school is giving them a great education "--I think that the opposite is true, see above.

-A student driven to succeed will succeed at a state school and at a private school alike.


All in all, I am not bashing private schools. I am sure that you get a great education at most of them. They are just not worth the extra money, unless you get a substantial scholarship.

 

[doctor girl]

JBJ,

It sounds like you went to a cool undergrad school.

What school was it??

Originally posted by JBJ
I have not had a bad experience at Wash U, and I fully admit that my experience is very different than doepug, since I am a grad student and s/he was an undergrad. I just don't see how you can justify paying $20,000 a year more for a similar experience. If you have a full ride or a scholarship that brings the price similar to a state school, by all means take advantage of it. If not, have the $80,000. That is a ton of money.

Here is what I contend:

-Most states offer education at a similar quality to that of most private schools, for a lot less.

-You can get the intamacy that premed2003 describes at some state schools. 7 years after graduating, I still get personal, handwritten letters, Christmas cards, email from several professors that knew well. As an undergrad, I lived in a professor's house for a summer in exchange for painting it. I spent many hours at another's house drinking wine and making a fool of myself reading poetry. My school was MUCH smaller than 50,000.

-The only degree that really matters in your "pedigree" is the final, terminal degree.

-Acecdotally, the students that I spent time with were the ones driven to succeed, and they were accepted into prestigious medical schools and graduate programs.

-Most students that attend private schools think that their education is much better than public ones, because they are paying so much (at $25,000 a year, its got to be better, right?) I do not begrudge people of thinking that their alma mater is the best. There is nothing wrong with loyalty.

-As quoted by premed2003 "Too often people want to make themselves feel better that a state school is giving them a great education "--I think that the opposite is true, see above.

-A student driven to succeed will succeed at a state school and at a private school alike.


All in all, I am not bashing private schools. I am sure that you get a great education at most of them. They are just not worth the extra money, unless you get a substantial scholarship.

 

[Premed2003]

Shamthis,

I certainly can take the stress of undergrad, and medicine is for me. I'm almost done with undergrad and already accepted to top med schools. I'm trying to tell people that they should not let fear of the unknown take over their lives

Originally posted by shamthis
ooh...oohhhh...stress stress i cant handle the stress...."Big Red Stress.."....oohh I can't take the pain.

Premed2003. If you cant take the stress of undergrad maybe medicine isnt the right direction for you.

As you can probably tell this entire thread is infuriating me. It's pointless to argue one school over the next. For the most part we're comparing apples and oranges, and who can say if "Cornell" is better than Wash U. Cornell has 7 Colleges within. Who's to say you can't approach professors at Cornell. Some courses like Psych 101 are huge but upper level classes have 10-20 enrollees, tops.

"I can't take the stresss...AAAAHHH" Get a f'n life. "Will Wash U get me into a better med school than Cornell?" Ech.

The naivete on these boards overwhelms me...for Christ's sake go where you'll prosper. Every institution is what you make of it.

 

[merlin17]

"Most students that attend private schools think that their education is much better than public ones, because they are paying so much (at $25,000 a year, its got to be better, right?) I do not begrudge people of thinking that their alma mater is the best. There is nothing wrong with loyalty."

I have to argue against that comment. Many of the most prestigious universities have a need blind financial aid policy. That is, they admit students regardless of financial need and then meet all of the demonstrated financial need of the family with scholarship and a few loans. At my "prestigous" university, a very large percentage of students were on financial aid and my freshman year roommate actually paid less than $4000 a year to attend (that included her loans). For many of the people that did pay full tuition, they were wealthy enough that cost was not much of a consideration.

I'm pretty sure it was princeton that first decided that it didn't want any of its students to graduate with student loans and a few months later most of the other top colleges followed their influence and boosted their scholarship packages. In terms of finances, I was treated very very well by my school. For me, my state school would have been cheaper for sure, but certainly not $20,000 cheaper, and their are a lot of experiences that I had in college that for me were worth the money regardless of where I end up in medical school.

 

[Mutterkuchen]

If your financial aid package at a private institution brings the cost of attendance down to the approximatelcost of a state institute, then by all means, one should go there if they want. My point is simply that it is not worth an extra 50,000-100,000 to just to get a private education. It will not advance your career much, and you probably won't be any happier there. Grad schools or medical schools are another story.

Regarding merlin's friend who was able to go to a private for less than $4000 a year. . . I think that is great. I had a close friend from high school who was able to go to Northwestern, leaving with about $12,000 in loans. I was happy for him, since Northwestern University is a great school. But these stories are the exception, not the rule. SDN is littered with people who are going to medical school with substantial undergraduate debt.

And I attended Southeast Missouri State University by the way.

 

[INeedAdvice]

I agree with Premed2003. Not everyone who gets into medical school comes from a "prestigious" school, but a prestigious name won't hurt you and it probably helps.

There are a lot of great schools out there. Here's a list of the ones with the "it" factor.

The IvyLeague:

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Columbia
Cornell
Penn
Brown
Dartmouth


The Super Six:

Chicago
Stanford
Georgetown
MIT
Hopkins
Duke

Then there are schools that are on the brink of belonging to the above, but their names are not "common among the masses" as others. Schools like:

CIT
CMU

These two are *Top* in academic areas...and medical schools Admissions are very aware of them...which is what matters. (I also don't think it's a coincidence that both of these schools are high tech and that they're not common household names. I think a regular 'Joe Public' isn't always aware of the most cutting-edge high tech areas out there).

Of course, as has already been pointed out, you can't go to any of these prestigious schools and get a C average and expect it to carry you through when you're up against competition that gets an A average at a fine State School.

There are also schools like the following:

Virginia
Notre Dame
Rice
Wash U (St. Louis)
University of California (Berkeley)
Northwestern

Their names may be more "common" and some are also State Schools.... but they have some awesome programs. Even if they don't have the prestige that the Ivies or the Super Six have with the general public, they carry a lot of weight with Admissions departments at medical schools because of their excellent academic reputations.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

Originally posted by Premed2003
I can also attest to the importance of a prestigious name to getting into med schools. I know people try to think that it doesn't matter, but it definitely does make a difference. Of course, people from a variety of schools get into top med schools (or any med school for that matter). However, the prestige of the undergrad institution is also important. I have been fortunate to get into a few top 20 schools already, and I flubbed an MCAT section (7 verbal). I can assure you that I would not have gotten into one of these schools if I had not gotten As at Princeton. If it had only been As at my state school, I would not have been given this opportunity. At Princeton, my top grades are top against the brightest (for the most part) students in the nation.

 

[tedstriker]

You may also want to consider the extent to which a medical school favors its own undergraduates. Cornell guarantees an interview to its undergrads, for example. Do an SDN search for "schools that favor undergrad" and you'll unearth a recent thread about this...

 

[shamthis]

Originally posted by tedstriker
Cornell guarantees an interview to its undergrads, for example.

wanna make a bet?

 

[Horseradish99]

I agree with what premed posted up earlier... if you are freaking out about cornell and washu and which is better for getting people into med school, you might be approaching it all wrong.

take a look at the students there... are they happy? Are they involved in activities that might interest you? How much contact do they have with professors? Does the school have a major that you might be interested in? If so, is it a good program where you will be challenged/nourished/enriched? How do finances play a part in your decision? How does location? What kind of competitiveness exists, if any, among the students? Is there a premed advisor to help you plan your path into premed? How much support does that office give for a premed? Are there MCAT tutoring groups? Do they offer outside factors (kaplan, princeton review) that can come to your campus and give review sessions?

There are tons of factors to consider in going to undergrad. If you are thinking medicine is for you, rock on. But don't limit your search to how well an undergrad will prepare you for med school or how well an undergrad will put your foot in the door of med schools. I know TOO many people who came to college as premeds and ended up dropping that after a semester. If you should find something else to be passionate about, how silly would it have been for you to pick your school solely on its ability to send its graduates to med schools.

I'm not saying you can't look into the school's reputation for making med students, but by the sounds of it, if you are that worried, you might need a little refocusing. Choose a school where you will get a great education, have exposure to new challenges and life experiences, have the opportunity to volunteer, get involved with activities, sports, networks, whatever floats your boat. And here comes my bias... think about the possibility of liberal arts! Pre-meds shouldn't be afraid of lib arts schools-- they don't make you become an English major everytime! And if lib arts don't suit you, pick cornell or washu for the right reasons, not just the numbers.

Good luck to ya!


scott

"It does not do to dwell in dreams, or you might forget to live." -Albus Dumbledore

 

[tedstriker]

Originally posted by shamthis
wanna make a bet?

If you apply by September 1, you're supposed to get an interview. Since I'm bankrupt from apps I can't bet money! I guess you probably have a story to tell, feel free PM me or post the real deal...

 

[shamthis]

Cornell is my top choice, hands down.

I applied 7/31, submitted by hand.
I worte them a letter two months later confirming my interest in Cornell, and reporting that I was offered a research position at the next-door hospital for the next 4 years, contingent on an acceptance to Cornell (for availability purposes).

My letter of recommendation is from a Cornell alumnus and current professor, who is one of America's top doctors. The last line says something along the lines, "I would like to see [shamthis] among the entering class here at Cornell." This same surgeon spoke with a professor at Cornell to aid me with leverage.

I currently work at Cornell. I was a 4 year rower for Cornell. I just had a major surgery at Cornell. I did ok in school- 32P, 3.5 with sports...College of Arts and Sciences...

And I have not been offered an interview.

STORY 2

My friend went to Cornell. So did her parents, and her parents' parents. And all them went to Cornell medical school too. She did well enough at Cornell to get interviews and acceptances at most of the schools she applied to and Cornell is her first choice. She also told them that, and submitted early.

She, too, has not been offered an interview.

There t'aint no guarantees in life, mon frere I think that was an old policy that was ultimately done away with because it 'tricked' or 'teased' too many people and was a waste of students' travel expenses. I suspect there is no favoritism whatsoever. Of course, I could be mistaken.

 

[scootad.]

Cornell med no longer guarantees interviews to their undergrads.
That policy ended the very year I applied (2000-2001) unfortunately. Too bad cos I had borderline stats.

 

[tedstriker]

Ah, I see. I left Ithaca in 2000...

Sorry that happened to you, Shamthis.

 

[shamthis]

No worries--- I'm happy with the cards I've already been dealt, regardless of what comes of Cornell...

I didn't know you guys are cornell alums too. Great to know! Good luck with everything.

 

[tedstriker]

Thanks. Go Red!

 

[doctor girl]

There are a lot of great schools out there. Here's a list of the ones with the "it" factor.

The IvyLeague:

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Columbia
Cornell
Penn
Brown
Dartmouth


The Super Six:

Chicago
Stanford
Georgetown
MIT
Hopkins
Duke

Then there are schools that are on the brink of belonging to the above, but their names are not "common among the masses" as others. Schools like:

CIT
CMU

These two are *Top* in academic areas...and medical schools Admissions are very aware of them...which is what matters. (I also don't think it's a coincidence that both of these schools are high tech and that they're not common household names. I think a regular 'Joe Public' isn't always aware of the most cutting-edge high tech areas out there).

Of course, as has already been pointed out, you can't go to any of these prestigious schools and get a C average and expect it to carry you through when you're up against competition that gets an A average at a fine State School.

There are also schools like the following:

Virginia
Notre Dame
Rice
Wash U (St. Louis)
University of California (Berkeley)
Northwestern

Their names may be more "common" and some are also State Schools.... but they have some awesome programs. Even if they don't have the prestige that the Ivies or the Super Six have with the general public, they carry a lot of weight with Admissions departments at medical schools because of their excellent academic reputations.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

Universities in the ivy league or the "super 6" may be a lot harder. The other students that are there may be of a higher caliber. Prestige in a school can also be a 2 edged sword.

 

[mvervaine]

personally, i think both wash u and cornell are great great schools (reputation and education), so you should choose according to the remaining--yet most important--factor: happiness. if you hate your school, you won't be able to do well. okay, you might be able to, but you'll be miserable in the process.

in terms of comparing an ivy (cornell) to a non-ivy (wash u), i think the only medical school that i've seen (with my own eyes) that very explicitly favors ivy-league students over non-ivy students is columbia. if you flip through their student handbook at their interview, you'll see that 85% of the school is comprised of ivy-league students. now, i don't know if this is because these students are just brighter period (regardless of undergrad institution) or what, but columbia accepted about 30% of the students that applied from my undergrad institution (i went to an ivy school) in 2001 and the GPA/MCAT avg for this accepted population is slightly lower than the national avg of acceptees for columbia. so, maybe school name matters in this case. but, like i said, this is the only school where i've suspected this. consequently, if columbia is not at the top of your list, then you shouldn't worry too much about prestige of cornell over wash u.

 

[jwin]

mustang

i am a senior at wash u currently applying to medical school. yes, no one knows wash u, but this is not true in the medical community. several of my interviewers have commented on how they like wash u and have a lot of respect for its students. you will get an excellent science/premed education at wash u although be warned as others have said they make you work for your gpa and if you do not have a strong work ethic it is not the place for you. wash u sends a number of students to the best medical schools in the country. it also sends about 10-15 undergrads a year to its own medical school. if you are truly interested, i can send you a list of the where students have gone in the last 7 years.

more importantly, wash u is a fun place to go to school. everyone has a good time. in years past, the mentality has been to work hard and play/party hard.

i cannot say anything about cornell, but if you go to wash u, you will have a lot of fun and you will study your brains out.

 

[doepug]

22 people from the WU class of 2000 matriculated at WU's medical school. Pretty sweet odds if you're an undergrad at WU.

Cheers,
doepug

AB, Washington University, 2000
MD, Johns Hopkins, 2004

 

[phllystyl]

Well, for what it's worth..

I just checked my watch to confirm this:

It's 4:26, and PRINCETON STILL SUCKS

go quakers!

 

[All-Star14]

Prestige is a factor in med school admissions, but I don't know how major a factor it is (yet). Just remember...with every decision you make, there are drawbacks. So although someone might attend a prestigious university (eg. Ivy League institutions, Stanford, Duke, Emory, UChicago, Berkley, etc.), that person might have a lower GPA due to high academic competition. But I don't mind competition...after all, med school and good residencies all require one to be competitive. I'm getting my competitive training from my undergrad.

Plus, our basketball teams are ranked very high this season. Excellent academic preparation and top-ranked basketball programs...what more can one ask for?

 

[klp14]

Originally posted by jwin
i cannot say anything about cornell, but if you go to wash u, you will have a lot of fun and you will study your brains out.

Same is true for CU - the work hard, play hard mentality seems to be a constant at "good" schools. But does Wash U have Slope Day? I think not!

Bottom line to the OP is that you should visit both schools and talk to the people there. Pick the place where you feel most comfortable and you'll have a much better chance of doing well.

P.S. Why does Cornell always seem to get bashed when it comes to discussions about Ivies? Why such grudges about one particular school? Go Big Red!

 

[phllystyl]

High above Cayuga's waters
There's an awful smell!
Some say it's Cayuga's waters
We say it's CORNELL!!

Sons of b1tches, Sons of bastards
40,000 strong
40,000 horse's a55es
Call themselves Cornell



phlly

 

[ScreamingTreesRule]

I'm getting my competitive training from my undergrad.

Plus, our basketball teams are ranked very high this season.

Where do you go for undergrad All-Star??

I agree with Premed2003. Not everyone who gets into medical school comes from a "prestigious" school, but a prestigious name won't hurt you and it probably helps.

There are a lot of great schools out there. Here's a list of the ones with the "it" factor.

The IvyLeague:

Harvard
Yale
Princeton
Columbia
Cornell
Penn
Brown
Dartmouth


The Super Six:

Chicago
Stanford
Georgetown
MIT
Hopkins
Duke

Then there are schools that are on the brink of belonging to the above, but their names are not "common among the masses" as others. Schools like:

CIT
CMU

These two are *Top* in academic areas...and medical schools Admissions are very aware of them...which is what matters. (I also don't think it's a coincidence that both of these schools are high tech and that they're not common household names. I think a regular 'Joe Public' isn't always aware of the most cutting-edge high tech areas out there).

Of course, as has already been pointed out, you can't go to any of these prestigious schools and get a C average and expect it to carry you through when you're up against competition that gets an A average at a fine State School.

There are also schools like the following:

Virginia
Notre Dame
Rice
Wash U (St. Louis)
University of California (Berkeley)
Northwestern

Their names may be more "common" and some are also State Schools.... but they have some awesome programs. Even if they don't have the prestige that the Ivies or the Super Six have with the general public, they carry a lot of weight with Admissions departments at medical schools because of their excellent academic reputations.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

Washington University is right up there with the Virginias and Notre Dames. It may not be Ivy League, but it's up there as far as respectability.

"yes, no one knows wash u, but this is not true in the medical community."

I think that's the key. The medical community knows all about Washington University and they are your ultimate target.

 

[Bounty]

Originally posted by All-Star14
Plus, our basketball teams are ranked very high this season. Excellent academic preparation and top-ranked basketball programs...what more can one ask for?

Lots of duke people on SDN. I love it! Go Duke!

 

[doctor girl]

Originally posted by Gleevec
I think US News has taken a lot of the power of the Ivy name away.

I'd agree that not everyone knows of all of the Ivy schools. I also think a lot of a college's reputation is regional.

I'm not from the South so my friends and I always thought of Duke as a "basketball school" because of Coach K and his dynasties. Not until I was looking into medical school did their US News medical ranking catch my attention.

Similarly, I only knew about Notre Dame in terms of football and didn't realize that they were a Top 20 school until I saw the US News rankings.

Although I never even heard of Cal Tech until I started looking at colleges. But everyone from California (that region) has heard of Cal Tech (or students who are applying or those in academia). Reputation is still very regional.

 

[CatsAreKillers]

Originally posted by doctor girl
I'd agree that not everyone knows of all of the Ivy schools. I also think a lot of a college's reputation is regional.

Most people don't know the difference between Penn State and Penn, for gosh sakes!

I'm not from the South so my friends and I always thought of Duke as a "basketball school" because of Coach K and his dynasties. Not until I was looking into medical school did their US News medical ranking catch my attention.

It's a Southern thing. I think most people think that about Duke until they start looking around for med schools and then..."They're a top med school?? Wow."

Same with Michigan having athletic teams. Never knew that they were a top med school until application time.

 

[cg1]

It's a Southern thing. I think most people think that about Duke

Before Krzyzewski won 2 championships in the 1990's (is that the total amount that they've won?) ... the only Duke that I knew about was Patty.

Mustang,
Washington University and Cornell are both excellent institutions, so you really can't go wrong with either selection.

Originally posted by phllystyl
Well, for what it's worth..

I just checked my watch to confirm this:

It's 4:26, and PRINCETON STILL SUCKS