Preventing non-physician providers from misrepresenting their qualifications

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wayttk said:
And who watches the Quackwatchers?
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Did you notice there are over 300 advisory members?
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AhhPuller said:
Most Europeans call anyone with a doctorate "doctor," and they seem to have the necessary skill to differentiate a medical doctor from others with doctorates.
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Far from true. In Germany, physicians are not even referred to as "doctors" unless they've done an optional research thesis. Until then they are addressed as "Mr." or "Mrs." and many go their entire career as such. They are very cautious about who is referred to as "doctor."
 
maxhealth said:
Far from true. In Germany, physicians are not even referred to as "doctors" unless they've done an optional research thesis. Until then they are addressed as "Mr." or "Mrs." and many go their entire career as such. They are very cautious about who is referred to as "doctor."
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OK, maybe you missed the fact that I said "most." Germany is only one country that I've never lived in, but I've lived in several of the EU countries because of my parents' professions, and what you mention is definetly not the norm. Sometimes you go into banks and have to address the manager as "dr" because they hold a doctorate.
 
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Will the Reverand Dr_______be precluded from using the title of Doctor?
 
Are optometrists doctors. Podiatrists do major bone surgery in most hospitals in US-are they doctors. How about PHDs? This is a dopey lobbyist scam to waste $ defending laws that are already written. DOs rotated through my clinic and were by far the most easily identifiable intellectually subdued. Dentists? Whoa who cares. Why would anyone impersonate a dentist?
 
We might also consider, since the word "physician" is from the Greek, meaning "interpreter of signs," perhaps we can assume that the AMA had read the "signs," which appear evident on all fronts, that they no longer have complete control of the health care market and such legislative efforts are "signs" of their futile efforts to maintain control of their dwindling market share.
 
Cap Sulotomy said:
Will the Reverand Dr_______be precluded from using the title of Doctor?
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Come on. READ THE BILL:

"(a) CONDUCT PROHIBITED.—It shall be unlawful for 20
any person who is a licensed health care service provider 21
but who is not a medical doctor, doctor of osteopathic 22
medicine, doctor of dental surgery, or doctor of dental 23
medicine to make any deceptive or misleading statement, 24
or engage in any deceptive or misleading act, that deceives 25
or misleads the public or a prospective or current patient 1
that such person is a medical doctor, doctor of osteopathic 2
medicine, doctor of dental surgery, or doctor of dental 3
medicine or has the same or equivalent education, skills,4
or training. Such deceptive or misleading statements or 5
acts shall include advertising in any medium, making false 6
statements regarding the education, skills, training, or li- 7
censure of such person, or in any other way describing 8
such person’s profession, skills, training, experience, edu- 9
cation, or licensure in a fashion that causes the public, 10
a potential patient, or current patient to believe that such 11
person is a medical doctor, doctor of osteopathic medicine, 12
doctor of dental surgery, or doctor of dental medicine. 13​

No one is talking about a pseudo-copyright on the title of "doctor". What this act is supposed to do is eliminate the common practice of sCAM providers telling their patients that they have education and training equal to or superior to that of an MD/DO. Period. That is all it does. Anyone, including chiropractors and NDs who has earned a doctoral degree will still be able to refer to themselves as "doctor". They just won't be able to insinuate or state that, for purposes of medical care, their doctorate is equal to or superior to that of an MD/DO.

What I don't get is the uproar over this. This bill merely mandates ethical behavior. Midlevels and others opposing this bill should really ask themselves what in their day to day practices would change if it passed. If the answer is "a lot" that merely proves the need for the law.

- H
 
PublicHealth said:
We might also consider, since the word "physician" is from the Greek, meaning "interpreter of signs," perhaps we can assume that the AMA had read the "signs," which appear evident on all fronts, that they no longer have complete control of the health care market and such legislative efforts are "signs" of their futile efforts to maintain control of their dwindling market share.
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You know PH, I have come to realize that you are the SDN equivalent of the fat balding 40 year old man pretending to be a 16 year old virgin on the net. There is no way you are a medical student of any description. If you really are then medical school has changed dramatically in the last 3 years. Why? Because medical students are taught to actually gather facts prior to making decisions. The proposed law says NOTHING about use of the title "physician" or "doctor". All it says is (paraphrased) "when providing healthcare you can't claim to be an MD/DO/DDS, nor can you claim your education is equal to or superior to that of an MD/DO/DDS (in terms of providing healthcare), unless you are an MD/DO/DDS". What is wrong with that?

- H
 
PublicHealth said:
We might also consider, since the word "physician" is from the Greek, meaning "interpreter of signs," perhaps we can assume that the AMA had read the "signs," which appear evident on all fronts, that they no longer have complete control of the health care market and such legislative efforts are "signs" of their futile efforts to maintain control of their dwindling market share.
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I used to take you seriously, but you have just revealed that you really dont know anything at all on which you speak.

I also seriously doubt that you have any connection to any medical school whatsoever. Only a fool would claim that MDs have "dwindling market share"
 
Always nice to see a serious discussion with issues and arguments focusing on reason and evidence. :rolleyes:

If this is how SDN veterans are going to behave, who need trolls?
 
QuikClot said:
Always nice to see a serious discussion with issues and arguments focusing on reason and evidence. :rolleyes:

If this is how SDN veterans are going to behave, who need trolls?
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Meaning what? We should allow the discussion to be sidetracked into one of some non-existent proposed law that only MDs and DOs will be called "doctor"? PH is a person who has claimed, in the past, to be a DO student from NY. Given his/her latest ramblings on this and other threads, I do not believe that claim. PH simply lacks the basics of scientific reasoning, thus I have a difficult time believing that they attend medical education.

As for this thread, many, including PublicHealth, seem to want to debate a law suggesting that no one besides MDs or DOs can be called "doctor"; which would be an appropriate discussion if such a law were proposed. But one hasn't been. What has been proposed is a law to prevent midlevels and sCAM providers from holding out their qualifications as equal or superior to that of an MD/DO/DDS. A quick look at internet based advertising suggests that such claims are not rare at all. A law to prevent a less educated populace from being taken in by such snake oil salesmen is a good thing. As for the providers who do not engage in this unethical practice, the law places no burden on them. So where is the problem?

- H
 
FoughtFyr said:
Meaning what? We should allow the discussion to be sidetracked . . .
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Ad hominium never stopped a discussion from being hijacked. Getting personal just accelerates the desent into meaninglessness. When you make it about people, you contribute to the thread drift, rather than somehow forcing the thread back on the track you wish it to follow.
 
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MacGyver said:
I used to take you seriously, but you have just revealed that you really dont know anything at all on which you speak.

I also seriously doubt that you have any connection to any medical school whatsoever. Only a fool would claim that MDs have "dwindling market share"
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What about: "I AM Pod. When your mother or sister has an infected ingrown nail or hammertoe or bunion-who'll be there to fix it. How many diabetics with horrible ulcers rely on a dentist or PCP to debride the wound- how silly only DPMs bother with that. What hospital doesn't have DPMs on staff to save your sole?"

This HR 5688 is going to cause a tremendous run on student loan defaults if it passes anything.

I have an MD degree went to DPM school first. It was all many years ago and many fortunes were made. Most of my contemporaries have retired or are collecting disability-GOOD POINT- Make sure you have disability insurance.

The kid sponsoring the bill has NO real training - look up his bonafides.
 
Cap Sulotomy said:
What about: "I AM Pod. When your mother or sister has an infected ingrown nail or hammertoe or bunion-who'll be there to fix it. How many diabetics with horrible ulcers rely on a dentist or PCP to debride the wound- how silly only DPMs bother with that. What hospital doesn't have DPMs on staff to save your sole?"

This HR 5688 is going to cause a tremendous run on student loan defaults if it passes anything.

I have an MD degree went to DPM school first. It was all many years ago and many fortunes were made. Most of my contemporaries have retired or are collecting disability-GOOD POINT- Make sure you have disability insurance.

The kid sponsoring the bill has NO real training - look up his bonafides.
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I would agree that DPMs should be written into the bill. I am an MD, I go to a POD. I have relatives and friends who are orthopedic surgeons, they all have pods in their practices...

- H
 
I won't honor the aforementioned "cheap-shots" with another cheap shot. But I will leave you all with some humor: "What will become of Dr. John if this bill passes?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dr._John Will he simply be "John?"

You folks need to lighten up a bit. :) If this is not such a big issue, then why are you all getting so bent out of shape over it? We are all entitled to our opinions.
 
Pods, just write on your card _________doctor of podiatric medicine a graduate of the so and so college of podiatric medicine. They are called colleges of podiatric medicine aren't they? If you paid tuition and took out loans based on that I'd be really ticked off.
 
emedpa said:
I don't know of any pa's who would have problems with this. we all take great pains to let folks know we are not docs. every state in fact requires us to wear name tags that spell out "physician assistant" prominently.
I'm guessing all the opposition to this bill will come from the DNP crowd.
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boy, you give people no credit whatsoever. if people really needed to know that bad, they would find out themselves. excessive regulation by government paternalists. plus id like to see you try to enforce this. recording clinical interviews for quality control purposes, anyone?
 
ForbiddenComma said:
Yes... the DO education is 100% equal and 99% identical. Let's keep our wrath focused on the NPs and especially the DCs ;)

I also got a good laugh from the "some medical schools do [require the MCAT]" line. Isn't there something like only one school in the Caribbean that does not?

Here's another gem: "However, D.C.s must teach courses in which M.D.s or D.O.s don't have sufficient education or practical clinical experience." :laugh:
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Several (very, very good) schools in Canada don't require the MCAT - like McMaster.
 
twester said:
Is this legislation really necessary? Couldn't the problem be alleviated by doing away with the cryptic alphabet soup of abbreviations? Put Doctor of Medicine, Nurse Practitioner, Physician's Assistant, Registered Nurse, Doctor of Optometry, Doctor of Pharmacy, etc on name tags and stationary rather than MD, NP, PA, RN, DO, or PharmD which make no sense to the general public. It just takes an extra line on that name tag or lab coat - what's that a couple of extra bucks?
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Well, the main offenders of the alphabet soup embroidery are the nurses, and then the technicians like (and not poking at them here) the resp, therapists.
 
FoughtFyr said:
Come on. READ THE BILL:

"(a) CONDUCT PROHIBITED.—It shall be unlawful for 20
any person who is a licensed health care service provider 21
but who is not a medical doctor, doctor of osteopathic 22
medicine, doctor of dental surgery, or doctor of dental 23
medicine to make any deceptive or misleading statement, 24
or engage in any deceptive or misleading act, that deceives 25
or misleads the public or a prospective or current patient 1
that such person is a medical doctor, doctor of osteopathic 2
medicine, doctor of dental surgery, or doctor of dental 3
medicine or has the same or equivalent education, skills,4
or training. Such deceptive or misleading statements or 5
acts shall include advertising in any medium, making false 6
statements regarding the education, skills, training, or li- 7
censure of such person, or in any other way describing 8
such person’s profession, skills, training, experience, edu- 9
cation, or licensure in a fashion that causes the public, 10
a potential patient, or current patient to believe that such 11
person is a medical doctor, doctor of osteopathic medicine, 12
doctor of dental surgery, or doctor of dental medicine. 13​

No one is talking about a pseudo-copyright on the title of "doctor". What this act is supposed to do is eliminate the common practice of sCAM providers telling their patients that they have education and training equal to or superior to that of an MD/DO. Period. That is all it does. Anyone, including chiropractors and NDs who has earned a doctoral degree will still be able to refer to themselves as "doctor". They just won't be able to insinuate or state that, for purposes of medical care, their doctorate is equal to or superior to that of an MD/DO.

What I don't get is the uproar over this. This bill merely mandates ethical behavior. Midlevels and others opposing this bill should really ask themselves what in their day to day practices would change if it passed. If the answer is "a lot" that merely proves the need for the law.

- H
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Are NDs allowed to call themselves doctors in the States?
 
FoughtFyr said:
Yep, and they are allowed to tell their patients that they have "the same training" as an MD/DO...

- H
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hmm well that's not kosher is it? :confused:

Here in Ontario they can't call themselves doctor. BUt then again, neither can podiatrists which i find odd.
Up here in Ontario only MDs, ODs, DCs, DDS, and psychologists can use the title 'doctor' . Of course, so can Phd's.
 
See I like this because it prevents chiropractors from claiming they have MD equavilent training, but would this prevent them from claiming they can cure cancer and all sorts of other ailments? Does this force them to stick with science?

But I'm also on the otherside, because there are some allied health professionals like Clinical Psychologists, which have DIFFERENT training than MDs but are scientifically proven to have techniques and treatments which are more effective than some treatments that a Psychiatrist (MD) could provide. I don't know of any that CLAIM to be MDs, but wouldn't this act hurt the business of these other allied health professionals?

Could this infact cause problems? Because alot of people will probally avoid seeing allied health care professionals after they find out they are not 'MDs' and this potentially could cause issues no? Or am I the only one that sees it like that?
 
Daemos said:
Could this infact cause problems? Because alot of people will probally avoid seeing allied health care professionals after they find out they are not 'MDs' and this potentially could cause issues no? Or am I the only one that sees it like that?
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Shouldn't they have the right to see an MD if that matters to them?

- H
 
FoughtFyr said:
Shouldn't they have the right to see an MD if that matters to them?

- H
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some settings staff midlevels with docs and some staff midlevels only. if you go to a # of rural hospitals in many states(vermont, maine, texas, arizona, washington, others) you will not have the option of seeing a doc without going to another facility. if that's really important to you you can make that choice but you may have to drive hundreds of miles for the luxury of an md eval...I work a few times a month in such a facility and if someone wants to see a doc in the middle of the night they can go elsewhere or wait 12 hrs until the day shift doc comes on.....(we staff 24/7 pa's and a doc for 8 hrs on day shift)
 
emedpa said:
some settings staff midlevels with docs and some staff midlevels only. if you go to a # of rural hospitals in many states(vermont, maine, texas, arizona, washington, others) you will not have the option of seeing a doc without going to another facility. if that's really important to you you can make that choice but you may have to drive hundreds of miles for the luxury of an md eval...I work a few times a month in such a facility and if someone wants to see a doc in the middle of the night they can go elsewhere or wait 12 hrs until the day shift doc comes on.....(we staff 24/7 pa's and a doc for 8 hrs on day shift)
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And that is fine... but they need to know what choice they are making... Sir, you are seeing an NP or a PA at this hour here in this town... you want a doc then you need to drive an hour to XXX...

That way the community is well well well aware that they are not supporting having doctors in their neighborhood 24/7... which may or may not be acceptable... it's up to the community... but they need to be informed.
 
Faebinder said:
And that is fine... but they need to know what choice they are making... Sir, you are seeing an NP or a PA at this hour here in this town... you want a doc then you need to drive an hour to XXX...

That way the community is well well well aware that they are not supporting having doctors in their neighborhood 24/7... which may or may not be acceptable... it's up to the community... but they need to be informed.
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they know who they are seeing and in general they have made the choice to staff their er's with pa's instead of docs based on cost....pa at rural hospital 80-100k/yr....md at same hospital working same hrs 150k+
of course the pts who arrive by ambulance have less of a choice but I guess they can always sign out ama.....
 
Dr. Dai Phan said:
Hi all,

I did not know that DPMs in Ontario can't be called "doctors" by their patients while psychologists, dentists, chiropractors,optometrists can !!! Can anyone clarify why this is the case? it just does not make sense. DP

http://www.cocoo.on.ca/doctor.html
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Ontario has a reputation for being North America's most over regulated juristiction. Every profession has VERY clear regulations that must be followed to avoid professional misconduct. One major part of each professions governing act of parliament is the section called "restricted titles," these are the only titles that a liscensed member may use in the conduct of their practice. In the past the government even went so far as to regulate the size of font on a practioners sign! Each profession is regulated by a provincial "College" which establishes regulations for professional conduct and also takes the the role of disciplinary board when members are in violation of the regulations. Also, each college is governed by the Regulated Health Professions Act, 1991. The RHP states that only members of the colleges regulating physcians and surgeons, optometrists, chiropractors, psychologists, and dentists may use the title doctor. Now becuase podiatrists are regulated by the College of Chiropodists, which is not authorized to use the doctor title, they are restricted from using it in the provision of patient care. Now the reason why the college of chiropodists is not allowed to use the title is probably because chiropodists, unlike DPM's, do not hold a doctorate degree, they have a certificate diploma instead. Perhaps if ontario podiatrists had their own college then they would be permited use of the title. However, due to orchestrations on part of the government in the 80's to eventually eliminate autonomous DPM's from the province and replace them with chiropodists in health centers working under MD's the existing DPM's became members of the chiropody college and since 1992 no new DPM's have been allowed to register and obtain a liscence from the college.

These are the guidlines given to existing DPM's registered with the college:Q. When addressing my podiatrist colleagues outside the hospital/clinic, may I address them as "doctor"?
A. Yes. You may use the title "doctor" in strictly social settings where there are no potential patients present.

Q. Can I spell out my DPM degree as "Doctor of Podiatric Medicine" degree in advertisements?
A. Yes. In this context you are using the term as a qualification rather than a title. You must, however, use the title "Podiatrist" in the advertisement as that is the title under which you are registered to practise.

Q. Many of my patients call me 'doctor', should I correct them?
A. Yes. You should clarify the matter for them. You may find it useful to post a simple explanation in your waiting room to help your patients understand your requirements regarding the use of this term.
 
emedpa said:
some settings staff midlevels with docs and some staff midlevels only. if you go to a # of rural hospitals in many states(vermont, maine, texas, arizona, washington, others) you will not have the option of seeing a doc without going to another facility. if that's really important to you you can make that choice but you may have to drive hundreds of miles for the luxury of an md eval...I work a few times a month in such a facility and if someone wants to see a doc in the middle of the night they can go elsewhere or wait 12 hrs until the day shift doc comes on.....(we staff 24/7 pa's and a doc for 8 hrs on day shift)
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Exactly my point. For most things I would see a midlevel, but the uneducated general public should have that choice. And if they feel the benefits of waiting or travel are "worth it" to them, they should have that choice. It is merely a "truth in advertising" bill. To be fair, I would support a requirement for MDs to have to disclose their training type as well. FPs, EPs, etc shouldn't be doing plastics but many are...

- H
 
FoughtFyr said:
Shouldn't they have the right to see an MD if that matters to them?

- H
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That may be true. But the thing is this doesn't clearly define the training and qualifications of MDs/DMDs/DOs etc.

IMO this has the possiblity of making the 'doctor' shortage worse, because people will be avoiding allied health care professionals to go see MDs.

When in some cases the allied health care professionals are more than enough to deal with the problems they have, or sometimes have different training or practices or techiques that may work just as well or even better than what MDs can provide.

So unless if they will make a list defining the similiarities and exact differences within the law what each doctorate (and specality if needed) is allowed to do, this IMO will scare the average joe away from non MDs.

How about definining the sub specalities of medicine? Many people think "Doctor" and automatically assume they know EVERYTHING, when they don't. I have a few examples of people getting PISSED off at MDs for telling average joes they don't have the answer to their question because it's not their specality. The average joe gets confused, and angry, and thinks that the person he talked to is a quack or a fraud.

I mean I understand about a choice, but I just think it's unfair targeting non MD/DMD/OD professionals, when there is already enough confusion between the different MD/DMD/ODs.
 
Daemos said:
That may be true. But the thing is this doesn't clearly define the training and qualifications of MDs/DMDs/DOs etc.

IMO this has the possiblity of making the 'doctor' shortage worse, because people will be avoiding allied health care professionals to go see MDs.

When in some cases the allied health care professionals are more than enough to deal with the problems they have, or sometimes have different training or practices or techiques that may work just as well or even better than what MDs can provide.

So unless if they will make a list defining the similiarities and exact differences within the law what each doctorate (and specality if needed) is allowed to do, this IMO will scare the average joe away from non MDs.

How about definining the sub specalities of medicine? Many people think "Doctor" and automatically assume they know EVERYTHING, when they don't. I have a few examples of people getting PISSED off at MDs for telling average joes they don't have the answer to their question because it's not their specality. The average joe gets confused, and angry, and thinks that the person he talked to is a quack or a fraud.

I mean I understand about a choice, but I just think it's unfair targeting non MD/DMD/OD professionals, when there is already enough confusion between the different MD/DMD/ODs.
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I don't know. There are a number of people out there with questionable credentials (e.g., DCs and NDs) and many more with clear ones (e.g., PAs and NPs) who currently misrepresent themselves as MD/DOs or less frequently DDSs. Why should that be legal? Why shouldn't the ethical practice of notifying your patient of the level of your training be such a big deal. I firmly believe that MOST midlevels do this (but I have seen more than one PhD in Nursing, NPs confuse their patients with the "doctor" title), but I also know, both from personal experience and a quick look at web based advertisements that many sCAM providers claim to have attended "medical school" when in fact, they went to chiropractic college or an ND program. That should be outlawed.

As for your concern "How about definining the sub specalities of medicine? Many people think "Doctor" and automatically assume they know EVERYTHING, when they don't. I have a few examples of people getting PISSED off at MDs for telling average joes they don't have the answer to their question because it's not their specialty." I have three comments, first, your example proves such a law (one defining MD/DO roles) is unnecessary. As you state, people are pissed because the MD/DO refers them to a specialist because the first MD/DO can't answer the question. What you are describing is NOT similar to the proposed law, but in fact opposite to it. If an emergency physician held themselves out as capable of performing an angiogram, that would be the same thing, and board certification already prevents this, to a point. Second, like it or not, almost all states provide unrestricted licenses to "practice medicine and surgery", so, legally speaking, any licensed MD/DO can do anything in medicine or surgery (before everyone turns on flamethrowers - yes, radiation oncology has additional regulations as does provision of chemotherapy, but these are by the NRC and DEA/FDA respectively, not usually the state). It is just that hospitals (in the case of surgery), insurers (both health and malpractice) and the public at large force restrictions on practice, as do state boards of medicine in the event of a serious breech. Third, I don't see the problem with a "PISSED" off patient being referred out. Heck, that is what should happen. Unfortunately, again with the sCAM providers being the worst, it doesn't always happen. This law would at least force them to advertise honestly...

- H
 
emedpa said:
they know who they are seeing and in general they have made the choice to staff their er's with pa's instead of docs based on cost....pa at rural hospital 80-100k/yr....md at same hospital working same hrs 150k+
of course the pts who arrive by ambulance have less of a choice but I guess they can always sign out ama.....
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If they know who they are seeing then this rule should not impact your rural hospital, regardless of what money the pas make or the docs make. This law is not about money... it's about impersonation. Making sure that the uninformed are not MISINFORMED, not reinforming those already informed.
 
OSTEOPATHETIC


If osteopaths are so smart how come the aren't MDs. Go to MBA or law or nusring school before you teke out loans to be a DO (curious how an MD is AN MD but a DO is just a DO).

You can always buy your way into some field- after a lifetime of observing the vanities of the healthcare field- imagine doctors of nursing, shy ro practors and of course the quest for legitimacy of the osteopatheticists- look at the mb bs of Brittish origin- they get to be MD - You think some hillbilly with an ingrown nail is gonna question some dude or dudette that has a do harrying post the name? Hell no. DOs have tried for years to be able to write MD after their names- I spent lotsa years with 2 degrees MD and DPM and you know what nobody knows what DPM means and they don't care as long as you can set a fracture, pin a bone or write for meds.

The bozotic perception that they-those not being you - want to make it illegal to call yourself doctor unless you are a dentist or do is superficially goofy. Who cares. Nobody has health insurance anyhow.

But the DO that is the trumper-think about it: A DO with a degree in Physical Education+ DO PE

Lotsa FOOL THE PUBLIC

I'd prefer a Doctor of Nursing

What the hell is wrong with that-insurance companies won't pay more and the DN will probably not have the bussiness savvy of JO DO to hire a PA to to his/her thing....LOOK AT THE NOTORIOUS DOs- Richard Kimble, The guy that shot Botox into himself- DO is a short cut. Guys and gals with guts went offshore because they had CHUTZPAH.


Podiatry is what it is Chiropodist general to the queen of New York-

Its all stupid-one regulatory board works.

Oh yeah, you young MDs have a long road-divorce, dementia, drunken egos and yeah those student loans...STUDENT LOANS the ones that

LIMITED LICENSE practitioners WILL default on upping your interest rates.

Pay more for academic apartheid.

BTW my novels are published in every language and this is a great topic.
Books don't sell but stories about US healthcare are interesting.

Who's the most famous DO in London? :laugh:
 
jefguth said:
Ontario has a reputation for being North America's most over regulated juristiction. Every profession has VERY clear regulations that must be followed to avoid professional misconduct. One major part of each professions governing act of parliament is the section called "restricted titles," these are the only titles that a liscensed member may use in the conduct of their practice. In the past the government even went so far as to regulate the size of font on a practioners sign! Each profession is regulated by a provincial "College" which establishes regulations for professional conduct and also takes the the role of disciplinary board when members are in violation of the regulations. Also, each college is governed by the Regulated Health Professions Act, 1991. The RHP states that only members of the colleges regulating physcians and surgeons, optometrists, chiropractors, psychologists, and dentists may use the title doctor. Now becuase podiatrists are regulated by the College of Chiropodists, which is not authorized to use the doctor title, they are restricted from using it in the provision of patient care. Now the reason why the college of chiropodists is not allowed to use the title is probably because chiropodists, unlike DPM's, do not hold a doctorate degree, they have a certificate diploma instead. Perhaps if ontario podiatrists had their own college then they would be permited use of the title. However, due to orchestrations on part of the government in the 80's to eventually eliminate autonomous DPM's from the province and replace them with chiropodists in health centers working under MD's the existing DPM's became members of the chiropody college and since 1992 no new DPM's have been allowed to register and obtain a liscence from the college.

These are the guidlines given to existing DPM's registered with the college:Q. When addressing my podiatrist colleagues outside the hospital/clinic, may I address them as "doctor"?
A. Yes. You may use the title "doctor" in strictly social settings where there are no potential patients present.

Q. Can I spell out my DPM degree as "Doctor of Podiatric Medicine" degree in advertisements?
A. Yes. In this context you are using the term as a qualification rather than a title. You must, however, use the title "Podiatrist" in the advertisement as that is the title under which you are registered to practise.

Q. Many of my patients call me 'doctor', should I correct them?
A. Yes. You should clarify the matter for them. You may find it useful to post a simple explanation in your waiting room to help your patients understand your requirements regarding the use of this term.
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This is exactly the kind of nonsense that a law like this would bring here in the U.S.
 
flighterdoc said:
Well, the main offenders of the alphabet soup embroidery are the nurses, and then the technicians like (and not poking at them here) the resp, therapists.
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In my 23 years in nursing, I have never seen the amount of disdain for nurses from ANY MD/DO, etc like on this forum? Why are we the enemy?

I would like to offer a word of advice for those of you who are in or will be in your internship/residency. Be nice to the nurses. I have seen nurses make a mediocre resident look brilliant and a brilliant resident look mediocre. I saw a nurse slip a resident lab results that had just come up, making him look like he was really on top of things. I have also seen a nurse rush into a patient's room during rounds with new lab results making the resident look as if he had dropped the ball. I am NOT condoning this behavior; but I have seen it happen.

Nurses are not the enemy! Most MD/DO's really trust the nurses they work with; realizing they have brains and can catch problems early. At some point in your practice, you will write a bad order - you're human and humans all make mistakes (even nurses). The nurse is expected to catch the error and clarify it - covering your a%%. Yet, many of you (not all) act like nurses are the enemy and out to take your jobs away. Many of us had the chance to go to med school but chose the nursing (care) model over the medical (cure) model. So PLEASE!! Lighten up on the nurses.
 
Lets face it I think this bill will cause havok with the system. I mean other than CAM providers (which SOME COULD be improved if they focused more on scientific results, and some DO work, yes I support SOME CAM, like Naturopathic medicine (which I believe is the only CAM that has any chance of redemption, as long as it can seprate it self from traditional naturopahy), it's currently on the WRONG foot, but there are many many treatments they ahve available that work...unfortunately they also teach bs like homeopathy, and the 'subluxsation' model of chiropractic which is completely false and does nothing)

Nurses, Techs, Psychologists, Nutritionists, optomistrists are all an integral part of providing health care. And in a hospital many different people work together, remember you are only as strong as your weakest link. Remember as they say "By uniting we stand, by dividing we fall
 
DNP student said:
In my 23 years in nursing, I have never seen the amount of disdain for nurses from ANY MD/DO, etc like on this forum? Why are we the enemy?

I would like to offer a word of advice for those of you who are in or will be in your internship/residency. Be nice to the nurses. I have seen nurses make a mediocre resident look brilliant and a brilliant resident look mediocre. I saw a nurse slip a resident lab results that had just come up, making him look like he was really on top of things. I have also seen a nurse rush into a patient's room during rounds with new lab results making the resident look as if he had dropped the ball. I am NOT condoning this behavior; but I have seen it happen.

Nurses are not the enemy! Most MD/DO's really trust the nurses they work with; realizing they have brains and can catch problems early. At some point in your practice, you will write a bad order - you're human and humans all make mistakes (even nurses). The nurse is expected to catch the error and clarify it - covering your a%%. Yet, many of you (not all) act like nurses are the enemy and out to take your jobs away. Many of us had the chance to go to med school but chose the nursing (care) model over the medical (cure) model. So PLEASE!! Lighten up on the nurses.
Click to expand...


A bit oversensitive there, aren't you? My comment must have hit close to home.

BTW, I have worked with all sorts of nurses, good ones, bad ones, and incompetent ones, as a paramedic. I've even saved a few patients from being killed by nurses (but never had to have a nurse save a patient from me).

So, why do nurses (especially) need to put all their merit badges on after their names? Jane Smith (it always seems to be the female nurses, too), RN, BSN, CCRN, XYZRN, CNBERN, etc.

When I was a medic, Paramedic was good enough for me. When I'm a physician, MD will be good enough too - although I suppose I could add all of my educational titles if I really was feeling insecure.
 
flighterdoc said:
A bit oversensitive there, aren't you? My comment must have hit close to home.

BTW, I have worked with all sorts of nurses, good ones, bad ones, and incompetent ones, as a paramedic. I've even saved a few patients from being killed by nurses (but never had to have a nurse save a patient from me).

So, why do nurses (especially) need to put all their merit badges on after their names? Jane Smith (it always seems to be the female nurses, too), RN, BSN, CCRN, XYZRN, CNBERN, etc.

When I was a medic, Paramedic was good enough for me. When I'm a physician, MD will be good enough too - although I suppose I could add all of my educational titles if I really was feeling insecure.
Click to expand...

Seriously, I have never encountered another group in healthcare who put more abbreviations after their names then nurses. It has nothing to do with bashing their clinical competency, I just happen to find it pretentious and amusing. I don't even know what the hell half of the letters stand for, and I doubt the general public recognizes much of anything beyond "R.N.". Is it really necessary to go as Nurse Jane, R.N., B.S.N., B.C., W.O.C.N., C.W.C.N.? You don't see doctors walking around signing themselves with all their undergraduate degrees behind their name nor abbreviations for every single certificate earned. To me, anything more than two sets of initials after your name screams of raging insecurity.

Can you name any other profession in this country that regularly identify themselves with both a professional abbreviation AND their bachelor's degree after their name?
 
LizUMD said:
Seriously, I have never encountered another group in healthcare who put more abbreviations after their names then nurses. It has nothing to do with bashing their clinical competency, I just happen to find it pretentious and amusing.

Can you name any other profession in this country that regularly identify themselves with both a professional abbreviation AND their bachelor's degree after their name?
Click to expand...

I agree with that. I am one of the ones on the bandwagon to change signatures to that of highest degree held followed by professional license. Unforturately, some nurses like having alphabet soup. What I was speaking of was the recurrent theme on this forum of nursing incompetence. Every profession has its bad apples. There are bad doctors, nurses, paramedics, PA's, NP's, accountants, etc.

The nurse bashing just gets old. It is not based on reality. I never said that all nurses were perfect, or competent; but the same holds true with any profession. And the comment by the paramedic that he has NEVER had a nurse save a patient from him even though he has saved patients from nurses, is the most arrogant thing I have ever heard. Everyone who has practiced for more than 5 years has made at least one mistake - it's called being human. If we are lucky, we have someone catch our mistakes before a problem develops. But that only happens if/when we all work together.
 
LizUMD said:
Seriously, I have never encountered another group in healthcare who put more abbreviations after their names then nurses. It has nothing to do with bashing their clinical competency, I just happen to find it pretentious and amusing. I don't even know what the hell half of the letters stand for, and I doubt the general public recognizes much of anything beyond "R.N.". Is it really necessary to go as Nurse Jane, R.N., B.S.N., B.C., W.O.C.N., C.W.C.N.? You don't see doctors walking around signing themselves with all their undergraduate degrees behind their name nor abbreviations for every single certificate earned. To me, anything more than two sets of initials after your name screams of raging insecurity.

Can you name any other profession in this country that regularly identify themselves with both a professional abbreviation AND their bachelor's degree after their name?
Click to expand...

Not all nurses have a bachelor's degree in nursing. The other initials identify specialty certification.

FWIW, I have seen plenty of MDs with the alphabet soup after their names, but I agree that nurses are the worst offenders, with maybe the exception of speech therapists.
 
fab4fan said:
Not all nurses have a bachelor's degree in nursing. The other initials identify specialty certification.
Click to expand...

Oh I know, but that doesn't mean all those letters are necessary. Whether one has a diploma, ADN/ASN or BSN they are all R.N.'s performing the same job. I just don't understand why it is necessary to specify to such an extent. I mean, plenty of other professions have different levels of education within them (like teachers, where you can have a bachelors, graduate certificate or masters... but you don't see Teacher Jane, B.A., C.A.S.E., M.Ed. sign her name as such on your kid's report card do you?) Why can't it just be LPN, RN, or NP (there's another topic- how NPs in different specialties all have their own unique acronym, like FNP, CNNP, CPNP, ACNP, etc. in addition to the umbrella term of NP/APN and the degree MSN. Ugh, my head is spinning.)

I guess this isn't really a big deal to complain about, I just find it personally irritating.

As for the doctors- the vast majority of simply "M.D." or "D.O." I've never seen someone use an abbreviation for board-certification after their name, even though most have it. A lot will also add their fellowship credential if they have it (Like "F.A.C.O.G.") but you have to admit that's mostly all. You certainly don't see them listing their bachelor's degrees, even though not all of them have one. There are very few doctors who go beyond that, and the ones who do, yes I would agree that they are equally as obnoxious.

Not sure how I feel about listing master's degrees either. You'll see some MD/MBA, MD/MPH or even MD/JD's out there but I am of the mind that only the highest-level degree should be listed. Multiple degrees should only be listed if they are equal level (like MD/PhD or MD/DDS).
 
flighterdoc said:
BTW, I have worked with all sorts of nurses, good ones, bad ones, and incompetent ones, as a paramedic. I've even saved a few patients from being killed by nurses (but never had to have a nurse save a patient from me).
Click to expand...

Sorry dude, but I've saved quite a few patients (and some were harmed beyond saving) from paramedic errors and poor judgements based on their short training which for some reason seems to elevate them to the level of know it all. And yes, I know it's difficult in the field...ex ARMY medic and Helicopter Flight Nurse.
 
There are two different general degrees in the PA field a Bachelors and a Masters and I can't recall seeing anyone put MPAS after their PA-C to distinguish themselves.

I also guess that technically I could be a PA (MPAS), BS (CLS), MT (ASCP), CST, EMT-B if I wanted to identify my specialty certifications but I prefer to let my work do the talking.

-Mike
 
Chronic Student said:
There are two different general degrees in the PA field a Bachelors and a Masters and I can't recall seeing anyone put MPAS after their PA-C to distinguish themselves.

I also guess that technically I could be a PA (MPAS), BS (CLS), MT (ASCP), CST, EMT-B if I wanted to identify my specialty certifications but I prefer to let my work do the talking.

-Mike
Click to expand...

agree- my name tag says pa-c but my resume says pa-c, mpas, emt-p. I also have 2 bs degrees that I could list....and a scuba certification or 2 ...and I was a lifeguard for a while...and a water safety instructor..hmmmmm
emedpa, pa-c, ,mpas, emt-p, bs, ba, emt-p instructor, a.r.c. lifegaurd, a.r.c. wsi, rescue diver(ssi), nitrox/drysuit certified, master diver candidate, once dated your sister
 
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