Pritzker vs. Feinberg

[phenylalanine]

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so... besides the fact that these two schools are on the opposite ends of Chicago, what makes one better than the other?

 

[MollyMalone]

Well, Pritzker accepted me, while Feinberg used my secondary to paper the bottom of a birdcage. Hmmm. Come to think of it, I guess that could go either way. 🙄

 

[Wertt]

Feinberg is better because they accepted me while Pritzker rejected me post-secondary.

 

[Wertt]

Well, Pritzker accepted me, while Feinberg used my secondary to paper the bottom of a birdcage. Hmmm. Come to think of it, I guess that could go either way. 🙄

Wow, the opposite scenario, posted at the identical time... maybe I should change my name to TheLightSide...

 

[2010MD]

so... besides the fact that these two schools are on the opposite ends of Chicago, what makes one better than the other?

Well, besides the fact that Pritzker accepted me (and is therefore better, obviously!) and I have some unspecified, inauspicious decision "forthcoming" from Feinberg, I think Pritzker is a lot more integrated into the University of Chicago than Feinberg is into Northwestern U (not just geographically, but also philosophically and administratively). How much "better" that makes Pritzker would clearly then be a matter of how much you see yourself wanting to do things academically beyond the standard MD curriculum.

One of the things that impressed me most about Pritzker was the sense that its students have a lot of interests outside medicine and really use the UofC to their advantage to explore those other interests. My interviewer told me about a student who was interested in pastoral care and end-of-life issues doing some joint coursework with the Divinity School, and I also heard a lot about med students taking healthcare-related courses in the law school etc. This isn't to say Feinberg students don't have interests outside medicine, but I asked around and it didn't sound like they really have much of a connection with the rest of the University.

Edit: Also, given the first 3 responses to your question, it also sounds like maybe they're looking for 2 totally opposite types of students?

 

[MollyMalone]

Wow, the opposite scenario, posted at the identical time... maybe I should change my name to TheLightSide...

 

[Wertt]

Edit: Also, given the first 3 responses to your question, it also sounds like maybe they're looking for 2 totally opposite types of students?

This is likely true - I have absolutely no interests outside classes.

 

[sanford_w/o_son]

yes, u of c is extremely interdisciplinary, including the professional schools.

 

[2010MD]

This is likely true - I have absolutely no interests outside classes.

Aww, I didn't mean it like that!! I even said I didn't mean it like that!

 

[Comrade]

If you want to do an MD-MBA, NU's Kellogg School of management is the country's top ranked business school....

 

[Wertt]

Aww, I didn't mean it like that!! I even said I didn't mean it like that!

So you did...in that case where does someone like me fit in? Someone with a 2-dimensional personality and no interests or opinions?

 

[2010MD]

So you did...in that case where does someone like me fit in? Someone with a 2-dimensional personality and no interests or opinions?

I really hope you're just egging me on here, but I did say:

This isn't to say Feinberg students don't have interests outside medicine, but I asked around and it didn't sound like they really have much of a connection with the rest of the University.

I'm sorry if it sounded otherwise -- I really did mean connection with the rest of the University in Evanston. Pritzker is geographically close to the rest of the University, and a lot of med students take classes in other schools. Obviously Feinberg students have outside interests as well, they just didn't seem to pursue them through use of the NU Evanston campus as much.

 

[Wertt]

I'm sorry if it sounded otherwise -- I really did mean connection with the rest of the University in Evanston. Pritzker is geographically close to the rest of the University, and a lot of med students take classes in other schools. Obviously Feinberg students have outside interests as well, they just didn't seem to pursue them through use of the NU Evanston campus as much.[/QUOTE]


Yeah, I was just egging. And it is true, that the Med campus is a fair hike from the undergrads. I guess some see that as a plus, not being surrounded by the young'uns. But, if you're in the MD/PhD and hoping to do research in a lab at Evanston, that would be a big pain. The downtown campus is very metropolitan, safe, and nice though.

 

[DrRads101]

I don't know how much time you'll have and how much you'll want to take "extra classes" while in medical school. That said, Northwestern has joint programs in just about everything, and the business, law, and school of continuing studies which offers just about every cross-discipline class under the sun is right on the Chicago campus and there for your use. The entire Chicago campus is geared towards those who have graduated college and that means a lot of night classes are offered which fits perfectly with a med students schedule unlike an undergrad campus--I can't really see how or why I'd want to use the undergrad campus for any reason, personally speaking, and it's nice to not be surrounded by frat boys and drunk 18 year olds (not that is happening a ton at U of C). There is so much going on and so many "extra" things you can do within the med school community though, I just don't see taking an extra undergrad class meaning anything other than more stress.

The biggest differences are obviously location, and that the tests at NU are multiple choice board style and at U of C there are essays. NU is a little more focused on making good clinicians while it seems that U of C is more focused on making good researchers, though both obviously do the other very well. Beyond that I don't know anything about U of C other than the campus depresses the hell out of me, and I know I'd rather live in Streeterville than Hyde Park--just a personal preference. Streeterville is very urban, very clean, and very safe, and it is rare to get all three of those in one package.

 

[chandelantern]

The schools felt very different when I interviewed at them, and neither one was a good fit for me. I'm not into living in a skyscraper nor did I like the "east coast" feel I got from Pritzker (totally my opinion, no flames please!) However, both are regarded as great schools! Some things I would consider...

1.) Curriculum=completely different. Pritzker is a traditional lecture curriculum while Northwestern is in love with their PBL

2.) Class dynamics. Pritzker is a smaller (~100) class when compared to Northwester (170+)

3.) Cost. Northwestern is $6k more than pritzker (if i remember right) and I haven't heard a whole lot about generous financial aid from there (although i could be wrong.) I imagine it is more expensive to live downtown than around Hyde park, but I don't really know that for sure.

If you're choosing between these two schools, visit them both again. Make a list of things that are important to you and see how the schools match up.

 

[gary5]

Feinberg if you want to do clinical medicine.
Pritzker if you want to do research.
If you're unsure, then Feinberg, hands down.

 

[phenylalanine]

thanks guys 🙂 very helpful!!

I think Pritzker would fit me better... I am definitely leaning toward academic medicine because I already have a strong research background and want to continue to do both bench and clinical research as a physician. I also like how U of C is not catered for the board and 1. a problem-solving style teaching 2. still has an incredible match list.

 

[veenut]

it's strange, given how similar the two schools are in terms of reputation and everything, but it seems like a lot of people get interviews at one but not the other (feinberg for me). i wonder why that is hmmm

 

[phenylalanine]

it's strange, given how similar the two schools are in terms of reputation and everything, but it seems like a lot of people get interviews at one but not the other (feinberg for me). i wonder why that is hmmm

i am guessing these schools are looking for different ppl
on the MSAR, proportion of accepted applicants with relevant experiences:

U Chicago-
Community Service: 68%
Medically-Related Work: 82%
Research: 88%

NW:
Community : 55%
Medically-Related Work: 60%
Research: 77%

U Chicago, I think, is looking for ppl with more healthcare experiences who are interested, if not committed, to become academic physicians.

 

[veenut]

i am guessing these schools are looking for different ppl
on the MSAR, proportion of accepted applicants with relevant experiences:

U Chicago-
Community Service: 68%
Medically-Related Work: 82%
Research: 88%

NW:
Community : 55%
Medically-Related Work: 60%
Research: 77%

U Chicago, I think, is looking for ppl with more healthcare experiences who are interested, if not committed, to become academic physicians.

i wonder if the # of HPME students at feinberg skews those numbers

 

[infiniti]

I think U of C has more diversity in its clinical training during the last two years. One of the reasons I decided against northwestern is that they don't take any patient without insurance. I didn't like this (this is just me personally). Also, U of C is affiliated with county hospitals (in addition to its hospitals). where you get to see a lot of rich, poor and everthing in between patient. Northwestern in my opinion, caters more to the wealthy.

Even though I am from Cali, I am currently spending a few months here in chicago. I work in NW hospital and I see the sort of patient they cater to.

I actually think U of C is a better school to go to if you are solely interested in being a clinician (just because opportunities abound in research doesn't mean there isn't an emphasis on clinical medicine). The same could also be said for academic medicine.

That being said, both schools are good school. Its comes down to curriculum, location, and class size.

 

[phenylalanine]

I was thinking the same thing myself. Among the students admitted through the regular admissions process, it is hard to find one in the M1 and M2 class at NU who hasn't done research or some kind. (This was not the case in the classes admitted prior to 2004; what year does the MSAR data reflect?).

2004.

 

[nosugrefneb]

I think most of you have hit on a lot of the major differences between Pritzker and Feinberg and most importantly have realized that they are on completely different ends of the spectrum. It follows then that they probably are indeed looking for different types of people to fit into their programs. I think they are both fantastic schools and you could not possibly go wrong going to either, but it's important to consider your own personal preferences when choosing between the two since they are so different.

The most obvious thing is the location of the two schools. Northwestern is in one of the better and more well-to-do areas of the city, and as a result they have very nice places to live in the surrounding area, their hospital is gorgeous, etc. A big drawback in my mind about that situation is that their patient population tends to be more well-to-do as a result of their location, so the students there might not be exposed to a lot of the more extreme medical cases since their patients tend to have better health care overall. At the same time, it is an important tertiary center so they do tend to have many referrals for serious diseases that can't be cared for at other hospitals.

This is in distinct contrast to UChicago, which also does play a role as a large tertiary care center but also, given its location, tends to care for a lot more of the underserved population, and unfortunately that tends to make for a more interesting education in my opinion. That said, Hyde Park isn't anywhere close to being as nice as the Gold Coast, but for many people, that's okay. I personally love Hyde Park - it feels almost like a suburb within Chicago, and the whole downtown area is close enough that you're not isolated. That said, you're not required to live in Hyde Park, certainly. Many people don't in fact, and commuting is not a big deal at all, especially since the drive is outbound in the morning and inbound at night, so there's very little traffic if any. (Plus there's ample street parking!)

I think the other major difference, as many of you have touched on, is the curriculum. Pritzker is going to be revising the curriculum over the next few years, so it could be entirely different for some of you, but for most this won't apply. Northwestern does tend to pride itself on having very little lecture time and stressing PBL, whereas Pritzker tends to be a bit more lecture intensive. (I want to stress here though that you're not in lecture ALL DAY like some people think you are. That's definitely a myth. As a first year, you have 2-3 lectures in the morning, a 3 hour break, an afternoon lecture, and then anatomy lab. This is in stark contrast to the rumors going around that you're in lecture from 8:30-5 every day!) So, my point is that these two curricula are like black and white. It will be important for you to evaluate how you like to learn, whether that's reading a lot on your own and not being bogged down by a formal class structure or getting a lot of your information out of lectures and labs and reading a bit on the side to supplement the lectures. (One thing I will mention that kind of freaked me out when I was choosing was that you want to make sure your PBL group, if applicable, is on the ball. You really depend on others in your group to learn, and if you have a slacker in your group or someone who totally depends on everyone else, you will have to pick up the slack for that person on top of your own work. That prospect really scared me personally, but I am the type of person who likes to learn independently and study in groups without worrying about teaching everyone else the whole time.)

I will tell you that for most people difference in cost isn't an issue. There's not much difference between a few thousand dollars when the total amount is in the hundreds of thousands. You will be a lot happier paying extra money for the school you like than saving a few thousand dollars and hating your educational experience in my opinion.

The other thing is that there are plenty of research opportunities at both schools. You shouldn't say "I want to be a researcher or an academician so I'm going to Pritzker" or "I hate research so I'm going to Northwestern." Both schools have emphasis on both being a good clinician and developing research skills. Obviously graduates from both schools will have ample choices for the direction of their careers, and neither will be prohibitive for research and academics vs. pure clinical practice. Each has its perks and each probably has areas in which the other is better. The bottom line is that these are fantastic schools and you are lucky to have a choice between them. The key is to determine which school lines up with your personal goals and preferences better.

Please take this all with a grain of salt. I'm a second-year at Pritzker and can honestly say that I LOVE it here, but I certainly know people who also love Northwestern and I obviously can't give a whole lot of perspective on Feinberg in the first place.

If any of you have specific questions about Pritzker or want to come visit for a day, let me know and I'd be happy to help out. I'll be starting PhD work next year too (which I just decided to do!) so if you're curious or have questions about research at Pritzker, let me know that too! Just shoot me an email at [email protected] or PM me or something.

Peace.
Ben

 

[DNM503]

Peace.
Ben

You make me want to go to Pritzker to be your friend...haha. That sounded really lame, but seriously, you're posts are always logical and helpful...thanks.

Oh, and P.S. to the people reading this thread-- I, too, received an interview/acceptance from Pritzker, but have heard nothing from Northwestern (which means definite rejection at this point). Actually, Northwestern was the only school I applied to not to offer me an interview--I'm not saying that to brag or anything--it just fits with the weirdness. Maybe there is some sort of conspiracy going on... Or more likely, I just wasn't what Northwestern was looking for... 🙂

 

[DrRads101]

One of the reasons I decided against northwestern is that they don't take any patient without insurance.

Speaking as a medical student here at Northwestern with a gf who is a nurse at NMH, I can say that this is absolutely, positively false! During my internal medicine rotations we see people without insurance all the time. I'm not sure where you are working but I would I agree with LizzyM and say the vast majority of patients I see at NMH are middle class or younger (in their 20's-30's, as a reflection of how many young people are in this city) and not wealthy. I see people without insurance and the very poor every week--we treat them the same as anyone but then give them free samples rather than a prescription. Heck my gf works in cardiac ICU and has *homeless* patients. You can't get more "treat those without insurance" than free cardiac ICU for the homeless!

 

[DrRads101]

(One thing I will mention that kind of freaked me out when I was choosing was that you want to make sure your PBL group, if applicable, is on the ball. You really depend on others in your group to learn, and if you have a slacker in your group or someone who totally depends on everyone else, you will have to pick up the slack for that person on top of your own work. That prospect really scared me personally, but I am the type of person who likes to learn independently and study in groups without worrying about teaching everyone else the whole time.)

Just like people may overemphasize how much class time you have at UChicago, I gaurantee people are guilty of doing the same with Northwestern's PBL. We have 2 PBL classes per week, each for 2 hours. That's 4 hours a week maximum of PBL. In no way is it the center or core of the curriculum--it's merely supplemental. Compare the 4 hours per week of PBL to the 4 hours per DAY of lecture/STS/lab we have.

 

[nosugrefneb]

Good to know...that just goes to show both our schools have myths flying around! I'm certainly sorry to have contributed to it.

Ben

 

[Wertt]

Actually, Northwestern was the only school I applied to not to offer me an interview--

Interestingly, same goes for me in the reverse direction. Accepted to Northwestern, interviews at all schools I applied to save for Pritzker.
Makes me suspicious that there may be some communication going on between these institutions.

 

[Wertt]

It is more a case, I think, that schools are looking for different things. It can also be luck of the draw: when <12% of applicants are being interviewed you can be in the top 13% of "excellent candidates" and not get an invitation. 🙁

Of course that's a possibility. We'd need to find a lot of people that had this same either-or scenario to really suggest that they might be 'conspiring'. But it is an interesting thing nonetheless.
I wonder if something similar happens in other cities with multiple schools?

 

[pnasty]

i was interviewd from northwestern and rejected post secondary from pritzker

forthcoming at northwestern tho so we shall see what this ominous phrasing is all about. Northwestern is definitely leaps and bounds my top choice, but I can't comment because I haven't seen pritzker. I was impressed with how northwestern has a lot of research money and yet above all still stressed clinical excellence in the interview. Best of both worlds.

 

[titoincali]

Of course that's a possibility. We'd need to find a lot of people that had this same either-or scenario to really suggest that they might be 'conspiring'. But it is an interesting thing nonetheless.
I wonder if something similar happens in other cities with multiple schools?

I had the same thing happen to me. Accepted to Northwestern but UChicago was the only school I received a rejection from post-secondary. LizzyM is correct. You can't be in the top <12% of applicants in every school!

 

[Zymogen]

Pritzker=great school
Feinberg=great school

I'm going to make a bold statement and say that both student bodies are equally happy and have near equally bright futures. 👍

 

[sanford_w/o_son]

nwmh may take uninsured pts, but it's still the wealthiest hospital in a city in which the overwhelming majority of hospitals are operating in the red and occasionally shutting down (Michael Reece several years back, I've *heard* Laretto will be closing soon). and while I won't blame a hospital just for being embedded in an inequitable system of medical reimbursement, that nwmh puts some of its excess profits into luxurious, medically irrelevant pt rooms shows that they're happy with their position in this system and they don't mind attracting insured pts from other hospitals who could use them. so to me, they're almost in the same category of respect as boutique medicine.

a second factor that is not really the fault of nwmh (as far as i can tell) is that the chicago fire department takes its pts to the closest hospital and cfd takes a lot of impoverished pts. nwmh is located in the wealthiest area of chicago, and between it and the more impoverished areas to the south and west is a "buffer zone" of community hospitals operating in the red. the big exception, as someone pointed out, is adult trauma. but still, there are level-one adult trauma centers in christ h and cook county h which are usually closer to the impoverished areas to the south and west.

 

[DrRads101]

nwmh may take uninsured pts, but it's still the wealthiest hospital in a city in which the overwhelming majority of hospitals are operating in the red and occasionally shutting down (Michael Reece several years back, I've *heard* Laretto will be closing soon). and while I won't blame a hospital just for being embedded in an inequitable system of medical reimbursement, that nwmh puts some of its excess profits into luxurious, medically irrelevant pt rooms shows that they're happy with their position in this system and they don't mind attracting insured pts from other hospitals who could use them. so to me, they're almost in the same category of respect as boutique medicine.

Boutique medicine? Surely you don't mean that. We have VERY large, very diverse, and quite wonderful medical community here and I have never had a bad experience at this hospital, everyone has treated me with the utmost respect as a lowly student, and every doctor I have met wants nothing less than the best care for the patient and the best future via more research. This is a major academic medical center with a ton going on. That's not boutique medicine.

I am generally sorry to hear that other hospitals are closing or in the red across this country. But what would you have NMH do... start operating in the red too? Start being in the business of other institutions? Turn away people who have been treated elsewhere? Move the hospital entirely? Take the paintings down off the patient room walls?

You know, the money that NMH put into its "luxurious" patient rooms was done back in 1998. Since the hospital opened no more money has poured into making the patient rooms "more luxurious" unless it is for medically relevant purposes such as computerized, universal wireless medical records. It's not like profits are being spent on replacing the printed paintings from 1998 with original Picasso's you know. It's spent on medicine and things that advance care like new crazy MRI units that don't exist anywhere else in the region.

And you forget that Northwestern was operating in the red not too long ago. They made a major investment in the new hospital back in the 1990's, and a major gamble to make patient rooms single rather than double, to make the visiting hours 24/7, and to make the entire health care experience seem more hotel-like to comfort patients' almost universal and very real paranoia re: hospitals. And this whole gamble was all based on their own very medically relevant research regarding patient care. Even the paintings on the walls in the patient rooms are based on NU's own research on what types of paintings makes the patient more at ease. Yet it was still a gamble because many of these things had never been done before and are theoretically not profitable. Making patient rooms single is not as profitable as making them double. 24 hour visiting hours costs more money than making them 12 hours. Putting a small pull-out bed for a loved one to sleep in the same room as the patient while he/she is in intensive care is technically not profitable. But these things can't be construed as anything other than a good thing for the patient and if the patient prefers this type of environment and prefers that their loved one is able to stay with them overnight in a private room, then you can't construe this as a bad thing.

This simple trial and investment worked and the hospital is now modelled. With new profits there are plans for medically very relevant major medical and research expansion here. In 2007 there are plans to break ground on a new joint RIC/NMH hospital equally as big as the current hospital on the old vacant VA site, along with a 15 story academic research complex adjacent to RIC. And the 2nd largest Women's Hospital in the country is under construction and will be opening in a little over a year. It's an exciting time to be at Northwestern in my opinion.

 

[phenylalanine]

I think it can be concluded tha both are very good schools ( I may be biased.. but I think U of C is alittle bit more well known), and no matter where one ends up, he/she will be very happy!

now..... just curious, how are ppl planning to finance their medical school career? loans?? 55,000 of loans for the 1st year? then x4 (well, for U of C it's like 70,000 something for the last two years).. eeck! give us ur thoughts 🙂

 

[earmuffs]

Congrats on the acceptances!

I had the same choice to make a few years back, and I picked NU because of the location, the curriculum (I liked the balance of lecture & small group sessions/PBL), and I found the NU students and faculty to be more sociable based on the sample size of people I met (my girlfriend's from U of C so I'm going to pay for that, even though she agrees 😉 ).

I believe I made the right choice for me, and have been very happy with it. But I would probably have been very happy at U of C as well. Either way, you can't go wrong...(and I say that despite the NU-UofC rivalry). Good luck making your decision!

and while I won't blame a hospital just for being embedded in an inequitable system of medical reimbursement

Umm, it sounds like you are blaming them. I second everything ctwickman says.

that nwmh puts some of its excess profits into luxurious, medically irrelevant pt rooms shows that they're happy with their position in this system

A goal for the room design is try to make patients feel more like they're at home. Before you simply discount this as being "medically irrelevant", you should recognize that there is more to patient care than what medications you give. This is emphasized both at NMH and in the curriculum at NU, as it is in most all medical schools these days.

and they don't mind attracting insured pts from other hospitals who could use them. so to me, they're almost in the same category of respect as boutique medicine.

Shouldn't the health care industry strive to provide superlative care and maximize comfort for all patients? Is trying to make your patients and their families feel more comfortable (regardless of ability to pay) "boutique medicine"? I say ability to pay because as you pointed out with the ambulance rides, NMH is the closest hospital to Cabrini Green & for homeless pts living downtown on the lower multilevel streets.

I absolutely agree with you that by virtue of being in Streeterville (not exactly prime real estate when NU first affiliated itself with Passavant) it's not like the west or south side. But my uninsured pts admitted from Erie Clinic & Winfield-Moody disagree that they're not welcome at NMH.

 

[DNM503]

I think that Columbia & Cornell have a similar thing going... applicants seem to be a good fit at one or the other, but seldom both. NU has a lot in common with Cornell & Columbia is more like U of C.

I have to disagree. I LOVED the University of Chicago and STRONGLY DISLIKED Columbia. The people/goals/mentality at each institution seemed quite quite different.

 

[sanford_w/o_son]

okay, i agree i went too far in saying it was just below boutique medicine. that ascribes motivations that are probably *too* self-interested to be true.

i said i wasn't blaming them for being embedded in the current system of medical reimbursement. i didn't say i wasn't blaming them for taking the actions they do within that system.

and i wasn't claiming that they actively turn away uninsured, but that there are structural factors (location and ems system) that tend to lower their burden of uninsured pts as well as investment decisions they make to attract insured pts who might otherwise go to less luxurious, but closer, hospitals. any research they point to that shows this improves pt outcomes is at least in good part a rationalization of their primary motive--to attract insured pts from less luxurious hospitals. do "enjoy your health" ads improve pt outcomes? yes, i don't respect hospitals for spending their profits in boutique-y ways like this while others struggle to remain open (i cringe at u of c's ads, too).

but they're just playing by the rules of the game, right? they can't donate profits to other hospitals before building luxurious rooms and running ads because that's just not how things are done, right? its the system's fault, and it's really not their job. none of their business, really, to trifle with matters related to health care outside of their walls. they shouldn't even entertain such ideas.

if nwmh, or any other hospital not in the red, thinks that "the health care industry [should] strive to provide superlative care and maximize comfort for all patients" then any profits that would be spent on ads, hotel-like accomodations, or other frills that have the primary goal of attracting insured pts should be given to medical institutions in the red. they don't, so they don't.

 

[earmuffs]

Well, you have partial agreement from me on some points, and I apologize if I misinterpreted some of your statements yesterday.

There is no money bin at NMH where the board members roll around naked in. If there was, I would have gone Scrooge McDuck on that long ago.

The newfound profits go in large part towards improving pt care at NMH. Much of this was alluded to above by ctwickman, which benefits patients. New MRI scanners, multiple PACS machines on every floor, EMR & computers for accessing it, cool state-of-the-art surgical toys, multimillion dollar patient simulators for health care providers to practice on. These are good for patients. There are lots of building projects going on like the new Women's hospital (currently it's the 2nd busiest birthing center in the US, and it's extraordinaly cramped), the Lurie Cancer Center is now done, other building projects coming soon as well.

Hospital advertising does suck. But this is hardly singular to NMH (which I know that you do acknowledge). U of C's "forefront of medicine" and "there is no #2 in Chicago" ads are all over the place. Loyola and Rush are on the airwaves. How many major academic medical centers don't advertise? The answer probably rhymes with "hero". If memory serves correct, about 2-3yrs ago Rush was even doing a radio ad campaign to try and get perfectly healthy people come in for a medically unnecessary full body scan. 😱 The new thing is medical centers are paying pro sports teams millions of dollars to be their official doctors - thank the NY Mets cashing in on this idea 1st to the tune of a few million dollars. But the joke was on them because their players ended up getting absolutely clobbered with injuries and reinjuries as soon as they made the switch.

And these hospital ads are stil not even close to being on the same level as the f-ing drug companies.

[Happy woman goes running thru a field of flowers. Camera zooms in to her face - "I have genital herpes, and I love it!!! You should get it too just so you can take my company's new herpes medicine!]

Where we largely differ, I believe, is how we view NMH's expenditures. As ctwickman states above, they're pioneering advances to improve patient outcome. Doing single patient rooms was a huge gamble economically. But they should also become the norm for hospitals - better from an infectious disease standpoint (especially in this era of superbugs - MRSA, VRE), more privacy, better for patients & their families. To have never invested in these rooms for a new hospital would ultimately not have been as good for all patients served by NMH, locally and regionally. They're pouring money towards attracting top-notch researchers and providing them with lab space and equipment, also for the ultimate betterment of patient care. Ads? Yeah, I agree with you 100% that they suck, and that goes for everyone that does it. But NMH shouldn't be scorned for transforming itself from a hospital that was losing money, to taking a huge financial risk which paid off, and is now one of many hospitals helping to set a new and improved standard in health care. Hospital administrators from all over the US are always touring the facilities to see how they can model their own after it to improve both financial stability and patient outcomes.

I don't believe it's the responsibility of an individual hospital to cover the losses of other hospitals. Sometimes these losses are due to local demographics, sometimes it's mismanagement, sometimes it's just a miserable place for patients to be and they have to seek out institutions that will treat the person and not the disease. And I certainly don't know nearly enough about these other hospitals to identify which scenario it may be.

Hospitals in the red is a big problem both in Chicago & nationwide. The real problem here, which we do seem to agree on, is a health care system that is the best in the world for 80% of our patients, and among the worst for the other 20%. It's a problem in health care reimbursement that will only be fixed through these wonderful, reliable and caring elected officials in Springfield and Washington. 😉 The villians here are crooked governors, VP's that shoot their hunting buddies, and legislators unwilling to take any action.

The villian is not Northwestern Memorial Hospital simply because they run occasional ads and don't give away millions of dollars per year directly to hospitals (although the fundraising done by NMF giving away about $32 million during FY2004 probably does qualify, with $$ going for Women's hospital construction, health education programs, and their partnerships with the YMCA, Erie Clinic, & Winfield-Moody).

I'm really veering off topic here and have to hit the books, so I'm probably going to sign off on this thread, sanford. I feel where you're coming from on this one man, I just hate the game a whole lot more than I hate the player (who in this case really isn't a bad guy and actually does some good stuff).

Good luck to everyone making decisions on med school!

Focker, out!

okay, i agree i went too far in saying it was just below boutique medicine. that ascribes motivations that are probably *too* self-interested to be true.

i said i wasn't blaming them for being embedded in the current system of medical reimbursement. i didn't say i wasn't blaming them for taking the actions they do within that system.

and i wasn't claiming that they actively turn away uninsured, but that there are structural factors (location and ems system) that tend to lower their burden of uninsured pts as well as investment decisions they make to attract insured pts who might otherwise go to less luxurious, but closer, hospitals. any research they point to that shows this improves pt outcomes is at least in good part a rationalization of their primary motive--to attract insured pts from less luxurious hospitals. do "enjoy your health" ads improve pt outcomes? yes, i don't respect hospitals for spending their profits in boutique-y ways like this while others struggle to remain open (i cringe at u of c's ads, too).

but they're just playing by the rules of the game, right? they can't donate profits to other hospitals before building luxurious rooms and running ads because that's just not how things are done, right? its the system's fault, and it's really not their job. none of their business, really, to trifle with matters related to health care outside of their walls. they shouldn't even entertain such ideas.

if nwmh, or any other hospital not in the red, thinks that "the health care industry [should] strive to provide superlative care and maximize comfort for all patients" then any profits that would be spent on ads, hotel-like accomodations, or other frills that have the primary goal of attracting insured pts should be given to medical institutions in the red. they don't, so they don't.

 

[sanford_w/o_son]

sorry for being such a player hater. i'm sure my statements "misunderestimate" the extent to which any other hospital, even with charitable motives, would simply play by the rules of the game if they were in nwmh's position.

part of my frustration just comes from having been to just about every hospital in chicago and many in the suburbs, and seeing firsthand what bad and outdated condition much of the infrastructure and equipment is in for so many hospitals. because hospitals are individually acting rationally in an uncoordinated system, the system as a whole is irrational and huge capital reinvestment gaps exist among hospitals. nwmh makes for a noticable scapegoat.

 

[nuclearrabbit77]

nwmh may take uninsured pts, but it's still the wealthiest hospital in a city in which the overwhelming majority of hospitals are operating in the red and occasionally shutting down (Michael Reece several years back, I've *heard* Laretto will be closing soon). and while I won't blame a hospital just for being embedded in an inequitable system of medical reimbursement, that nwmh puts some of its excess profits into luxurious, medically irrelevant pt rooms shows that they're happy with their position in this system and they don't mind attracting insured pts from other hospitals who could use them. so to me, they're almost in the same category of respect as boutique medicine.

a second factor that is not really the fault of nwmh (as far as i can tell) is that the chicago fire department takes its pts to the closest hospital and cfd takes a lot of impoverished pts. nwmh is located in the wealthiest area of chicago, and between it and the more impoverished areas to the south and west is a "buffer zone" of community hospitals operating in the red. the big exception, as someone pointed out, is adult trauma. but still, there are level-one adult trauma centers in christ h and cook county h which are usually closer to the impoverished areas to the south and west.

As an M4 at Northwestern, I want to assuage the concerns prospective students may have concerning the perception that Northwestern does not provide significant amounts of care for the underserved. Although our facilities and location may give the impression that we serve only the insured and upper-class, this is simply not true.

Northwestern Memorial has expended over 300 million dollars in unreimbursed care over the past 5 years. These are folks with no insurance.

As far as Medicaid, we are one of the largest providers in Illinois and one
of the highest of any of the Chicago medical schools. This is just for NMH. The VA is entirely an underserved population.

If you have any questions or concerns regarding this topic, please feel free to contact me.

For those who have the fortune of deciding between U of Chicago and Northwestern, congratulations and the best of luck to your decision. Both of these schools are outstanding institutions and your success will not be limited by picking one versus the other, but rather on your performance at each respective institution.

 

[bdubz]

I'm set on going to a school in Chicago, and am deciding between Feinberg and Pritzker. Can any current students at NU or Uchicago let me know how much class time there is at each school? I know that it is a myth that NU is all PBL and Uchicago is all lecture, they are actually more similar than different (Northwestern actually has a lot of lecture, and UChicago has group-type classes that are similar to PBL, but just not called that). I wasn't able to find Northwestern's curriculum schedule posted on their website, but while actually looking at UChicago's in more detail, it looks like the first two quarters of 1st year really suck, but after that, they do get a good deal of weeks with 1-2 afternoons off. And I was told by current Northwestern students that not all afternoons are free, though it does appear that they get more afternoons free in general per week. Thanks!

 

[nosugrefneb]

I'm set on going to a school in Chicago, and am deciding between Feinberg and Pritzker. Can any current students at NU or Uchicago let me know how much class time there is at each school? I know that it is a myth that NU is all PBL and Uchicago is all lecture, they are actually more similar than different (Northwestern actually has a lot of lecture, and UChicago has group-type classes that are similar to PBL, but just not called that). I wasn't able to find Northwestern's curriculum schedule posted on their website, but while actually looking at UChicago's in more detail, it looks like the first two quarters of 1st year really suck, but after that, they do get a good deal of weeks with 1-2 afternoons off. And I was told by current Northwestern students that not all afternoons are free, though it does appear that they get more afternoons free in general per week. Thanks!

That's exactly right: The first quarter at Pritzker is relatively crappy and gets better afterward. You can download a class schedule online, but here's the skinny.

First quarter: Lectures at 8:30, 9:30, and 1:30 and lab 2:30-5 with a break from 10:30-1:30. On TuTh, there are clinical skills lectures during the first part of the break, but not always. This is the toughest quarter because it includes biochem, anatomy, and cell physio.

Winter quarter: Lectures at 9:30, 10:30, and 12:30 and lab 1:30-4 with an hour break in there. On TuTh, there are lectures at 9:30 and 10:30 with random small group discussions later in the day. This gets easier because of no biochem and because you're used to how anatomy works and because the ethics and social context courses are a nice break from the hardcore science.

Spring quarter: By far the easiest. Plenty of time for as many electives as your heart desires (honestly...one guy in my class took 7 electives on top of required classes). MWF lectures at 8:30, 9:30, and 10:30 followed by very occasional clinical skills sessions. TuTh lectures at 8:30, 9:30, and 10:30 and lab 1:30-3. Easy quarter because of the decreased class time and because neuro is the only tough course. Popular electives are emergency medicine, pediatric forensics, medical Spanish, some random law and health policy classes, radiology...there's a bunch.

I think you're kind of right about the myths, but my understanding is that the curricula at the two schools still are pretty different (although I have no idea exactly what NU's curriculum entails). Hopefully some NU peeps can post re: their schedule!

 

[DrRads101]

I'm set on going to a school in Chicago, and am deciding between Feinberg and Pritzker. Can any current students at NU or Uchicago let me know how much class time there is at each school? I know that it is a myth that NU is all PBL and Uchicago is all lecture, they are actually more similar than different (Northwestern actually has a lot of lecture, and UChicago has group-type classes that are similar to PBL, but just not called that). I wasn't able to find Northwestern's curriculum schedule posted on their website, but while actually looking at UChicago's in more detail, it looks like the first two quarters of 1st year really suck, but after that, they do get a good deal of weeks with 1-2 afternoons off. And I was told by current Northwestern students that not all afternoons are free, though it does appear that they get more afternoons free in general per week. Thanks!

NU's curriculum can be broken down like this:

First 4 months of school, lecture from 8-10 every day, and afternoon class from 1-3 Tues/Thurs. So Mon/Wed/Fri you are off at 10 AM and Tues/Thurs you are off at 3 PM with a 3 hour lunch/study break.

Rest of first year and ALL of second year, lecture from 8-10 every day, lab/class from 10-12 every day, and again, afternoon class from 1-3 two days a week. So Mon/Wed/Fri you are off at noon and Tues/Thurs you are off at 3 with a 1 hour lunch break.

3rd year, say goodbye to your family.

4th year, probably more free time than 2nd year from what people tell me.

Hope that helps.

 

[nosugrefneb]

3rd year, say goodbye to your family.

4th year, probably more free time than 2nd year from what people tell me.

Ditto for Pritzker, BTW. Probably goes for most schools though.

 

[riceman04]

so... besides the fact that these two schools are on the opposite ends of Chicago, what makes one better than the other?

what makes one better than the other in your opinion?
You are the one attending...
do you know the type of curriculum that interests you most?
what about location? housing? Diversity? affiliated hospitals/clinics? financial aid packages? volunteer/research opps?

ask yourself those questions and I guarantee you will be able to answer your overrinding question by yourself

 

[eastsidaz]

Yet another instance in which I'm tempted to troll against Northwestern because I'm on their waitlist. But I won't.

This is a really tough call. Why not live in the NU med part of town and commute to Pritzker? Best of both worlds 😀

Honestly, though, you totally have to make up your mind based on individual preference--and try to ignore the stereotypes of Feinberg people as yuppie partiers and Pritzker people as uber-intellectuals and research devotees. I'm sure they both have enough of whatever you're looking for; realistically, you can't go wrong.

 

[siimpleton]

As for which school is better I'm not sure. But, I'd go with Northwestern assuming you don't want to get shot on your way to class. It sounds harsh or perhaps like a joke, but I know many people who go to their schools or work there and all but one have had serious incidents (the one that didn't only just started and has already had several minor incidents), some involving being shot at, mugged, etc. Perhaps I just know a bunch of people with bad luck, but it would convince me not to go there.

 

[pnasty]

As for which school is better I'm not sure. But, I'd go with Northwestern assuming you don't want to get shot on your way to class. It sounds harsh or perhaps like a joke, but I know many people who go to their schools or work there and all but one have had serious incidents (the one that didn't only just started and has already had several minor incidents), some involving being shot at, mugged, etc. Perhaps I just know a bunch of people with bad luck, but it would convince me not to go there.

i've heard its not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. i have a friend that goes there for undergrad, and he likes it (not sure if the two campuses are the same or not tho)

 

[luhando]

i've heard its not as bad as everyone makes it out to be. i have a friend that goes there for undergrad, and he likes it (not sure if the two campuses are the same or not tho)

uchicago pretty much has one big campus in hyde park.