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Hi folks. I'm curious to know what people's experiences with PBL have been like. My state school (Hawaii) uses PBL.
Problem Based Learning
- Thread starter adoggie
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I got accepted to JABSOM. I decided that I really didn't like the curriculum, and I managed to get off a waitlist at another school before UH's really early start date.
I had already begun applying for the next year's app cycle because UH was the only school I was outright accepted to.
I hated every minute of PBL and small groups the 1st two years, and we didn't have much. However, I knew that I liked lecture, and PBL was not going to fit with my learning style. One of my friends from high school just graduated from there and matched into derm, so it does work. She was also my HS's top valedictorian.
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Absolutely hated every minute of PBL they tried to shoehorn in the first two years, and not glad to see they're backing off on it for the incoming class.
In third year, it's actually pretty decent. When you do case presentations and talk through them with the class, it's cool to know this is an actual patient someone saw, the results are real, and you've actually learned something by that point and that makes you feel like your not a buncha idiots trying to hump a doorknob like you did in the first two years with PBL.
In third year, it's actually pretty decent. When you do case presentations and talk through them with the class, it's cool to know this is an actual patient someone saw, the results are real, and you've actually learned something by that point and that makes you feel like your not a buncha idiots trying to hump a doorknob like you did in the first two years with PBL.
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Not good. Not good at all.
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80% of med students hate it, 20% of med students, the ones that like to listen to themselves talk, love it.
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I'm not in med school yet. (A post bacc student) My undergrad degree was pretty much all PBL though, and the same idea follows through. I'd have to say that at the time NOBODY likes it. Why? You have overbearing people, actually have to do work (answers aren't nice and bundled up for you), and there is just a greater amount of frustration at the time. I don't know how medical schools do it, but I also had to deal with the frustration of scheduling conferences/meetings with 3 or 4 different teams at a time. At the end of it all, it did work. I forced myself to learn material in order to solve problems while simultaneously practicing how to approach a problem. My major was the highest recruited at the university, and we had the largest starting income....so something worked with it. The PBL curriculum can also teach leadership. That person that keeps talking? Develop leadership techniques to shut them the hell up. I've had to suffer through plenty of overbearing team members, and as a team/project leader I'd talk to them individually at some time about calming down. If not? Well, I'd dish out the crappy scut work to them. 
They learn pretty fast when nobody cares to work with them.
Odds are you're going to hate it, but a lot of it has to do with people never really using it TILL that point. Lectures are very very very inefficient when it comes to learning. Very few people learn by just listening and staring...an active approach is almost always best. You'll inevitably say to yourself "what the hell am I learning?" at some point, but by the end of the day you'll at least be on par with other students if not better prepared for the real world stuff.
They learn pretty fast when nobody cares to work with them.Odds are you're going to hate it, but a lot of it has to do with people never really using it TILL that point. Lectures are very very very inefficient when it comes to learning. Very few people learn by just listening and staring...an active approach is almost always best. You'll inevitably say to yourself "what the hell am I learning?" at some point, but by the end of the day you'll at least be on par with other students if not better prepared for the real world stuff.
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my take on it... its the blind leading the blind
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Seems there is a lot of negativity towards PBL on this forum, but it also seems that school don't know how to do it and I get from comments that it's usually not "real" PBL but a scaled down version.
At my school we're entirely PBL (as well as organ based) and I like the way it's set up.
The problem given is only an excuse to fit in the stuff we have to learn. And there is more to learn or discuss than just what's in the problem.
I'll take neuro as an example.
Take the syllabus from your neuro class and split the content in 9 sections (e.g. motor patways, sensitive pathways, cerebelum, etc...). The problems for each section are gross descriptions of common deficit/pathologies.
First the group tries to explain the anatomy/physiology/pathology of the content of the problem. This is either very quick (when we're at the beginning of a unit and don't know squat) or moderatly long (1 hour tops) when we actually know some stuff.
Then we get a list of objectives (the material) which goes beyond the problem
(this includes: anatomy, physio, path, investigations, treatments, etc)
Then comes the biggest and best part: alone, you study the material covered in the section. You read, take notes, study, etc. This is exactly like "not going to lectures and learning stuff in books" (as so often read on this forum).
When the group meets again, this is what usually happens:
-we discuss the case in the problem
-go trough the objectives and we explain stuff (usually everyone speaks)
-there is always an MD present with the group. He validates the explanations given by students, give quick lectures on what's important or poorly understood, relates the material to real cases, and answers our questions.
A typical session lasts 3.5-4 hours and is split like this:
-discussion on the case in the problem (20-30minutes)
-objectives, questions and lectures from the teacher (2 to 2.5 hours)
-new problem (half to one hour)
In summary, PBL is learning by yourself and then validating what you learned with a group and a teacher. The "problem" is not really what is focused on the most. I understand that most school don't use PBL in this way. I gather that there is a case to be discussed as it would be in real life and an MD may be present or not. I agree that it's a waste of time in the first and second year.
Now i'll take a shot at the pros and cons according to my experience:
Pros
-no lectures (well, maybe 3-4 on harder topics and to review)
-you pretty much set your own schedule.
-it makes you keep up because you look like an idiot if you don't work between sessions.
-you can relate the material to a real case.
-you can assess the material you know and don't know (by reviewing the material with the group).
-you get a more intimate access to a teacher: you can ask as many questions as you want, get stuff explained to you, learn about real cases.
-you get to build on and reactivate knowledge as you progress.
Cons
-yes, gunners can show off (but the group and teacher usualy shuts them up real quick)
-if you actually like lectures, you're going to be miserable
-you have a relatively short amount of time to master a lot of material
-groups are changed every unit/organ so you could be stuck with a bad group for a while
At my school we're entirely PBL (as well as organ based) and I like the way it's set up.
The problem given is only an excuse to fit in the stuff we have to learn. And there is more to learn or discuss than just what's in the problem.
I'll take neuro as an example.
Take the syllabus from your neuro class and split the content in 9 sections (e.g. motor patways, sensitive pathways, cerebelum, etc...). The problems for each section are gross descriptions of common deficit/pathologies.
First the group tries to explain the anatomy/physiology/pathology of the content of the problem. This is either very quick (when we're at the beginning of a unit and don't know squat) or moderatly long (1 hour tops) when we actually know some stuff.
Then we get a list of objectives (the material) which goes beyond the problem
(this includes: anatomy, physio, path, investigations, treatments, etc)
Then comes the biggest and best part: alone, you study the material covered in the section. You read, take notes, study, etc. This is exactly like "not going to lectures and learning stuff in books" (as so often read on this forum).
When the group meets again, this is what usually happens:
-we discuss the case in the problem
-go trough the objectives and we explain stuff (usually everyone speaks)
-there is always an MD present with the group. He validates the explanations given by students, give quick lectures on what's important or poorly understood, relates the material to real cases, and answers our questions.
A typical session lasts 3.5-4 hours and is split like this:
-discussion on the case in the problem (20-30minutes)
-objectives, questions and lectures from the teacher (2 to 2.5 hours)
-new problem (half to one hour)
In summary, PBL is learning by yourself and then validating what you learned with a group and a teacher. The "problem" is not really what is focused on the most. I understand that most school don't use PBL in this way. I gather that there is a case to be discussed as it would be in real life and an MD may be present or not. I agree that it's a waste of time in the first and second year.
Now i'll take a shot at the pros and cons according to my experience:
Pros
-no lectures (well, maybe 3-4 on harder topics and to review)
-you pretty much set your own schedule.
-it makes you keep up because you look like an idiot if you don't work between sessions.
-you can relate the material to a real case.
-you can assess the material you know and don't know (by reviewing the material with the group).
-you get a more intimate access to a teacher: you can ask as many questions as you want, get stuff explained to you, learn about real cases.
-you get to build on and reactivate knowledge as you progress.
Cons
-yes, gunners can show off (but the group and teacher usualy shuts them up real quick)
-if you actually like lectures, you're going to be miserable
-you have a relatively short amount of time to master a lot of material
-groups are changed every unit/organ so you could be stuck with a bad group for a while
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never was a fan of it.
people learn differently. i say: let us approach it the way we want
people learn differently. i say: let us approach it the way we want
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I tend to study well on my own anyways so PBL didn't bother me. I miss lectures, but we get by. My father went to you school btw.
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From what I've seen pbl is generally hated by people at non-pbl myself and liked by people at pbl schools. Of course, there's a selection bias there, but I think it's true that pbl schools do pbl better than schools like mine, where pbl is just thrown in as an afterthought. In the end since we all teach ourselves, I'm sure it will be fine with whatever method you go with.
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While I'm hardly a "PBL" kind of guy, I went to a dedicated PBL school. I think the truth is that anyone gets used to the system they work in. Personally I think it's stupid to reapply if you only get into a PBL school, but if it's not your cup of tea and you have the choice, skip it.
Face it people, med school sucks a$$, no matter your curriculum the first two years.
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PBL wasn't the only reason I was going to reapply, but it was a ginormous reason.
I'm a big proponent of being in some location/school/whatever you'd be happier too. I spent 4 years hating where I was in college. I didn't want to do that again in med school.
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The above post sums it up nicely. I go to a PBL/Lecture based school, with the two divided roughly equally in terms of hours.
I've always studied on my own and if I feel like working a group, then I have my friends/classmates to organize that for myself in my spare time.
PBL for me is a colosal waste of time and I always recommend highly for people to go to schools with a minimum amount of PB-Hell. I dread every minute that I have to sit and fill space in that room. It's just stupid. There are those moments, that like shooting stars, flare for rare seconds where PBL is useful, but for the rest of the time, it's like watching your youth and precious free time being flushed repeatedly down the toilet.
Man what I would give to have PBL hell as an "option". Might actually get a good nights rest.
I've always studied on my own and if I feel like working a group, then I have my friends/classmates to organize that for myself in my spare time.
PBL for me is a colosal waste of time and I always recommend highly for people to go to schools with a minimum amount of PB-Hell. I dread every minute that I have to sit and fill space in that room. It's just stupid. There are those moments, that like shooting stars, flare for rare seconds where PBL is useful, but for the rest of the time, it's like watching your youth and precious free time being flushed repeatedly down the toilet.
Man what I would give to have PBL hell as an "option". Might actually get a good nights rest.
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