Problem based learning?

[fsjune2009]

I am a little confused on the idea of problem-based learning. I usually would prefer to learn from a professor/MD directly, but i also value close connections with faculty so small group learning is appealing. Does anyone have any advice on place to apply/avoid given those preferences?

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[silverlining1]

Both lectures AND PBL sessions may be led by MDs or PhDs, to my knowledge. Therefore, you can (and will) get MD contact in both PBL and non-PBL curricula.

Also, you may want to search this forum to learn more, but PBL isn't all happy sunshine and rainbows of "interactive learning with faculty" - it requires research on your own time with often ill-defined objectives, and it may not be the most time-efficient method of learning for all students. Some people like the time/initiative required for PBL, while many students would prefer to have an organized curriculum present the information that is important to learn.

That being said, I am sure that most non-PBL schools (including my own) have some small group components. For instance, at least once a week, we have some sort of small-group problem solving or discussion session involving clinical cases (with MD or PhD faculty, it depends).

For more information on what kind of emphases each school's curriculum has, try checking school websites or the Medical School Admissions Requirements (MSAR) book.

 

[Eklipse113]

At the schools I've interviewed at, the ones with PBL (that's how they abbreviate it) have a split between classroom time, small group, and PBL.

During PBL you don't just get locked in a room and told "here's your problem- solve it!"
You have a doctor right there with you, guiding your discussion. You go home and do your research and come back with what you think you should do with the "patient" next class.

To me, schools with PBL are top of my list!

 

[fsjune2009]

Thanks so much for your quick response!
I was not crazy about the idea of PBL because i heard just about the same things you said about it being ineffective...
I was looking at the MSAR but it was unfortunately not as specific as i would have liked about the details of the curriculum for many schools. I see you go to UCSD...im a california native myself and UCLA and UCSD are on the top of my list...are you completely happy there, or is there something else you would have wanted in a med school? Thanks for the help!

 

[Law2Doc]

...
Also, you may want to search this forum to learn more, but PBL isn't all happy sunshine and rainbows of "interactive learning with faculty" - it requires research on your own time with often ill-defined objectives, and it may not be the most time-efficient method of learning for all students. Some people like the time/initiative required for PBL, while many students would prefer to have an organized curriculum present the information that is important to learn....

PBL exists because of dissatisfaction with the results of lecture based learning -- that students didn't learn to think about problems but merely to regurgitate facts. So both lecture and PBL probably have their place in medical education. As silverlining mentions PBL involves a lot of on your own research of topics, with the group typically assembling the research into a more cohesive analysis of an issue, with input by a faculty member who may be either a PhD or an MD. If done right, it can be effective learning and more closely simulates some of what you are going to be expected to do on the wards when the attendings expect you to "read up" on the issues affecting your patients each night. The push is to (1) get away from spoon feeding students info and (2) give more of a clinical correlation between the factoids and real hospital life, because lecture based coursework is not the way you are going to be learning after the basic science years and so the sooner you get away from this format, the better off you will be later. So you show me someone who just wants "an organized curriculum present the information that is important to learn", and I'll show you someone who is exactly the kind of person PBL was meant for, because they are relying on being spoon fed too much.

 

[Mobius1985]

Personally, I am also a fan of PBL. I found this post with a partial list. Schools with PBL: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=588330

 

[chiz2kul]

I was under the assumption that majority of med students HATE PBL....??
Or not?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=612378

 

[virusgirl]

I think PBL can be a good thing if it is done well. However, if it is poorly facilitated or you have a group full of gunners or people who just don't pull their weight, it can suck more than anything in the world. Given that I haven't started med school yet, I can't give an informed opinion of clinical PBL, but my P-chem class was very problem-based, group-learning, and it was the most awful thing ever.

It sounds so good in theory...

 

[Siverhideo1985]

The one PBL session that I got to sit in on at a second look visit was very impressive. It was fun to try and solve the mystery of what was going on with the various patients and it was a true team-effort. People seemed to enjoy it overall. I think it will really help us become good diagnostician later on. It even had sort of a Dr. House feel to it, haha.

 

[freakystud]

However, if it is poorly facilitated or you have a group full of gunners or people who just don't pull their weight, it can suck more than anything in the world.

yeah u bet virus girl. PBL will be a beneficial session if everyone really participate , discuss and did their research/homework before attending PBL session. I learn a lot from PBL coz lots of thing i can not cover within just period of time.PBL members can search from lots of various topic...like a sharing session.. if theres some mistakes or false facts, lecturer involved will guide us.

 

[freakystud]

However, if it is poorly facilitated or you have a group full of gunners or people who just don't pull their weight, it can suck more than anything in the world.

yeah u bet virus girl. PBL will be a beneficial session if everyone really participate , discuss and did their research/homework before attending PBL session. I learn a lot from PBL coz lots of thing i can not cover within just period of time.PBL members can search from lots of various topic...like a sharing session.. if theres some mistakes or false facts, lecturer involved will guide us.

 

[Lukkie]

do you HAVE to attend PBL sessions? one of the main draws of lecture based schools seems to be that you can just watch all the lectures online and almost never have to attend class your first two years.

 

[drizzt3117]

do you HAVE to attend PBL sessions? one of the main draws of lecture based schools seems to be that you can just watch all the lectures online and almost never have to attend class your first two years.

That's certainly a cool thing but not as useful as actually being in class, you can't hear what people other than the instructor say, for the most part, so it sucks when you don't know what questions people are asking. Any class that's done in a more socratic method is totally useless on capture unless the professor repeats the question on the mic.

I like PBL, Our school has a good amount of small group but I wish we had more of it.

Generally you have to attend any small group activity.

 

[thoffen]

UM Boca is very PBL intensive. I think PBL is run very differently at different schools. The pros and cons have already been identified here. Essentially, it is a good way to learn for conceptual learners who work well with others. It is also a good way to learn how to look up medical questions, put together and deliver presentations, and to practice general professionalism. While all of that sounds great, it can be an inefficient use of time, and sometimes you get stuck with some group conflict or a bad facilitator.

Personally, I very much enjoy PBL.

 

[nlax30]

do you HAVE to attend PBL sessions? one of the main draws of lecture based schools seems to be that you can just watch all the lectures online and almost never have to attend class your first two years.

Yea, here you do, and I'd assume at most other programs the small group sessions are required.

Of course, even though they are "required", I'm at school a max of roughly 2 hours a day. And this past year I would be done by noon at latest.

Like others have said, if done well it can work well. All PBL does is serve as framework and provide some sort of context for approaching all this material. Really not a lot of actual "learning" should happen in the actual small group session. That time is meant to move the case forward, identify the core topics relevant to that disease/presentation, and then go home and read broadly on those topics. During the next session you may spend some time tying up lose ends from last time or clarifying a mechanism, but the main focus is on going forward and identifying the next set of topics/issues that you need to study.

 

[Law2Doc]

That's certainly a cool thing but not as useful as actually being in class, you can't hear what people other than the instructor say, for the most part, so it sucks when you don't know what questions people are asking. Any class that's done in a more socratic method is totally useless on capture unless the professor repeats the question on the mic.

I like PBL, Our school has a good amount of small group but I wish we had more of it.

Generally you have to attend any small group activity.

To do PBL right, you have to do it in a very small group (<10 people), so you don't have the problems of hearing people you suggest. Socratic method can work well even in a bigger class, but requires a prof skilled in it or a classroom designed for it -- many law schools exclusively use socratic method teaching without the same problems you describe.