Professor vs Doctor

[BozoSparky]

I then look at the fact that the cost of college continues to increase and the wages of professors have also increased alongside. Many assistant professors with phds in biology at private and large state universities are starting with salaries close to 100K.

Since becoming a professor or a doctor is about a 6 - 10 year plan, and with the above in mind, would this influence your decision?

Also, I know many here are altruistic, I don't think this part of the discussion can be overlooked.

This is still a confusing discussion as one can be a professor in medicine. But, for university professor vs. private practice clinician: Assuming wages equalize, becoming a professor at a university is still pretty competitive, even at the smaller schools. Also, you have to go to where the job is available...geography might work against you. The MD has the benefit of being able to work almost anywhere, for most specialties. In any case...I guess the bottom line is you have to go with your gut and what makes you happy.

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[amikeMD]

This is still a confusing discussion as one can be a professor in medicine. But, for university professor vs. private practice clinician: Assuming wages equalize, becoming a professor at a university is still pretty competitive, even at the smaller schools. Also, you have to go to where the job is available...geography might work against you. The MD has the benefit of being able to work almost anywhere, for most specialties. In any case...I guess the bottom line is you have to go with your gut and what makes you happy.

Yes, I know I am kind of trying to separate something that is really a murky area. I know the option of becoming a professor exists with a MD, but I am really trying to pretend for this discussion that that option doesn't exist. Mostly because most professors with a MD focus on clinical work over research. I have heard that many MD professors are usually encouraged to do more clinical over research since that brings in more money for the hospital/institution. I am really describing a professor as one that does research and teaches.

I guess I should also add in a timeline.

4 years MD + 3 - 7 years Residency = 7 - 11 years. This isn't adding any research training that some doctors take a part in.

5 - ? years PhD + 1 - 4 years Postdoc = 6 - 9 years.

 

[brainCO]

5 - ? years PhD + 1 - 4 years Postdoc = 6 - 9 years.

The 1-4 year postdoc time is pretty presumptuous. In today's research climate, many many people are doing two or three postdocs to both be competitive for top jobs and generate enough data to get career-making grants funded. As an example, we just had one of our postdocs in the lab get a tenure-track job after 15 years of postdocing, but another who was really productive get one after just 4 years of postdocing.

The chances of becoming a tenure-track professor are pretty slim unless you are a combination of talented and lucky with your research. The PhD market is saturated with a bottleneck at the professor step (its not uncommon for 200-400 people to apply for tenure track jobs at mid-tier schools). When you're finished training with the MD you are virtually guaranteed a decent living because the pipeline bottlenecks at the application step.

 

[amikeMD]

The 1-4 year postdoc time is pretty presumptuous. In today's research climate, many many people are doing two or three postdocs to both be competitive for top jobs and generate enough data to get career-making grants funded. As an example, we just had one of our postdocs in the lab get a tenure-track job after 15 years of postdocing, but another who was really productive get one after just 4 years of postdocing.

The chances of becoming a tenure-track professor are pretty slim unless you are a combination of talented and lucky with your research. The PhD market is saturated with a bottleneck at the professor step (its not uncommon for 200-400 people to apply for tenure track jobs at mid-tier schools). When you're finished training with the MD you are virtually guaranteed a decent living because the pipeline bottlenecks at the application step.

So, is becoming a professor with MD at a medical school not competitive? Wouldn't you still be faced with the challenge of having to move to another state to get a position?

That 15 years of postdoc is kind of ridiculous though. Are you sure that wasn't a unique situation? I have been looking around the faculty of many good universities and they have people who have completed their PhD in 2004 - 2007 as assistant professors. Of course, I have no clue if they are tenure tracked.

Also, doesn't the place where you get your PhD play a role into your job prospects? I have a hard time believing that someone who gets there PhD from Harvard,MIT, Berkley, etc with a good research track would have a hard time getting good job as a professor. If that was the case, then we would have a lot of people with those types of PhD degrees ending up a lower end colleges due to competition. I can indeed see how a person who gets there PhD from a less known school could have difficulty finding a good job as a professor and end up needing to do a long postdoc.

 

[brainCO]

Also, doesn't the place where you get your PhD play a role into your job prospects?

It does, but it isn't just the name of the place, its also the perceived fame/prestige of your advisor (who are mostly, but not always, at the best places anyway). And you're right again, the 15-year postdoc didn't have a big name behind his degree, the 4-year one did. There are a number of published criticisms out there that we train too many PhDs, but those working with really productive scientists probably don't fall into that category.

If you go to one of the top places and bust your ass and land a great post doc and publish like mad, your chances are decent, but with 10-15% funding rates for grants, it still isn't easy. To be fair though, even if people from top schools don't get tenure-track jobs, it may be because they went to industry or did something else entirely with their degrees and aren't stuck in postdocs for life.

By the same token, it isn't exactly easy to get a job as an academic physician. But you've got to keep in mind that even if you come in as somebody looking to do 80% research, if the grants never come you can just devote more time to clinic, making you a little bit more versatile.
Also, the pipeline is different even at the postdoc/fellow level. It is fairly common for fellows at academic centers to stay on as faculty after their fellowships; that is pretty rare in the PhD-world which seems to really disfavor academic inbreeding.

The bottom line is simply if research is your bag and you motivated and can perform at very high levels, you are probably going to do fine getting a PhD, landing a great post doc, and publishing high impact work. If you want to do translational work or even just spend a couple days a week in clinic, do an MD, or, if you are interested and really like school, an MD/PhD. The amount of work required (and the timeline) is probably roughly the same to get to top academic jobs. The type of work you do, as others have mentioned, is pretty different.

 

[amikeMD]

It does, but it isn't just the name of the place, its also the perceived fame/prestige of your advisor (who are mostly, but not always, at the best places anyway). And you're right again, the 15-year postdoc didn't have a big name behind his degree, the 4-year one did. There are a number of published criticisms out there that we train too many PhDs, but those working with really productive scientists probably don't fall into that category.

If you go to one of the top places and bust your ass and land a great post doc and publish like mad, your chances are decent, but with 10-15% funding rates for grants, it still isn't easy. To be fair though, even if people from top schools don't get tenure-track jobs, it may be because they went to industry or did something else entirely with their degrees and aren't stuck in postdocs for life.

By the same token, it isn't exactly easy to get a job as an academic physician. But you've got to keep in mind that even if you come in as somebody looking to do 80% research, if the grants never come you can just devote more time to clinic, making you a little bit more versatile.
Also, the pipeline is different even at the postdoc/fellow level. It is fairly common for fellows at academic centers to stay on as faculty after their fellowships; that is pretty rare in the PhD-world which seems to really disfavor academic inbreeding.

The bottom line is simply if research is your bag and you motivated and can perform at very high levels, you are probably going to do fine getting a PhD, landing a great post doc, and publishing high impact work. If you want to do translational work or even just spend a couple days a week in clinic, do an MD, or, if you are interested and really like school, an MD/PhD. The amount of work required (and the timeline) is probably roughly the same to get to top academic jobs. The type of work you do, as others have mentioned, is pretty different.

Yes, that is a pretty good explanation on this issue. Thanks.

I suppose the last thing I would wonder is the factor of MD debt when trying to become a professor. It seems the average debt is around 150K - 200K+ nowadays. So, I wonder how can someone with this hanging over their head become a professor? Don't MD academic professors make significantly less than normal doctors? Wouldn't it take a long time to pay such a debt to off with only a 90k - 150K salary? Is this debt discouraging people with a MD from going the professor route?