Professor's Misguided Curving Policy. Opinions?

[freemontie]

I'm taking a chemistry course. The professor teaches 2 sections. Exact same professor, lecture and exams given (the exams are also given together, at the same date/time.)

First section scored a 52. Second section scored a 62.

The professor decided to curve the first section so that their score was a 62 average as well (+10 curve). The second section's scores were left unchanged (0 curve)

Fair or not?

I contend that the grades should be averaged together and a curve made. I.e. both classes together-> average is 57. So give everyone in both sections a +5 curve. I feel curves are meant to account for tests of differing difficulty. But if both sections have the exact same exam/professor/lecture than they should be curved TOGETHER. (I'm not sure but I think the reason for the difference between the sections is a combination of the loweer scoring section being an early morning class + statistical anomaly).

Go to professor and complain (nicely)? It's not just this exam- there's one more exam to go and a final which means that if she continues this than the effect would be a huge. (i.e. if it turns out we just have smarter people in our section by chance).

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[NoDakDok]

Welcome to college. Fair is whatever the professor deems fair. Regardless of what you say, I bet the response would be along the lines of "It accounts for my teaching difference between the classes" rather than "One class is smarter than the other," and then you would be dismissed. Except now the professor thinks you're one of those annoying "give me more points" premeds.

This is partly why it's not rare for premeds to utilize websites like RMP and ask around to find classes and professors that give them the easiest route to a high GPA.

 

[freemontie]

Welcome to college. Fair is whatever the professor deems fair.

Obviously. To avoid more smart aleck answers, let me restate the question: Is this egregious enough that I should complain about it?

EDIT: You edited your response to expound further. Good points.

 

[NoDakDok]

Obviously. To avoid more smart aleck answers, let me restate the question: Is this egregious enough that I should complain about it?

You could ask him/her why she does it this way, but complaining is not going to get you anywhere.

 

[TheRhymenocerous]

How are final grades distributed? Is it by score, or a set curve (like top 15% get As no matter the score)? And if it is curved, is it the top 15% in each section, or across both sections?

 

[freemontie]

How are final grades distributed? Is it by score, or a set curve (like top 15% get As no matter the score)? And if it is curved, is it the top 15% in each section, or across both sections?

That's a good question.
I believe however that since she's curving the exams, she won't curve the final grade. According to a syllabus, the final grade is a"point system" e.g. each of 3 exams is worth 100 points plus 200 points for the final. You need 420 points at the end to get an A.

 

[Mr.Zero]

I doubt your professor will change his mind now. I bet at least a few students in the other section would be pretty mad about losing 5 points and he would then have to deal with them. Who knows, maybe this system of averaging the grades will work in your favor next time!

 

[TheRhymenocerous]

If that's the case, I think it's pretty unfair to hold both sections to the same standard when one's been given a 10 point advantage. I don't know how you'd protest it without sounding whiney though...

 

[ProudMD]

This professor's policy does seem unfair. But there's really not anything you can do. I wouldn't approach the professor about this matter.

 

[deleted641469]

Sounds like some shady first-section people are sharing answers. Maybe I'm just cynical, though

 

[ProudMD]

Sounds like some shady first-section people are sharing answers. Maybe I'm just cynical, though

I wouldn't rule out that possibility. If students in both sections are of equal caliber (and there's no reason to believe otherwise), then a 10 point difference should raise some red flags.

 

[PantherPride]

Sounds like some shady first-section people are sharing answers. Maybe I'm just cynical, though

OP mentioned that the exams are administered at the same time

 

[Doudline]

tl;dr You want to retroactively change a curving policy set by your professor -most likely BEFORE the course- by complaining to the program direction because... it's unfair? To whom? You - because it means more people pass and your Z score isn't as pretty?

Poor thing.

 

[MrLogan13]

Grade grubbing is not a virtue. You got what you got. Unless you're due points because of grading errors, just leave it be. It's likely he won't change it, and even more likely that you'll be viewed as another grade grubbing pre-med.

 

[ski89]

I agree with the others above that talking to the professor about this will only be bad for you. That being said, what he is doing is unethical in my opinion and you should report this at the end of the semester (most schools have a formal process for this).

 

[freemontie]

tl;dr You want to retroactively change a curving policy set by your professor -most likely BEFORE the course- by complaining to the program direction because... it's unfair? To whom? You - because it means more people pass and your Z score isn't as pretty?

Poor thing.

This is off-topic, but why do people write down "tl; dr" and then respond to the thread? If you didn't read it then what value could your opinion have?

No, obviously the policy was not set before the course since she couldn't have predicted what the scores would be or if a curve would be given to anyone. No, that isn't why it's potentially unfair. No, there is no evidence that she computed standard deviations and a z score, though that's not directly relevant to my question anyway. Yes, you response is foolish and nonsensical.

 

[Doudline]

This is off-topic, but why do people write down "tl; dr" and then respond to the thread? If you didn't read it then what value could your opinion have? No, obviously the policy was not set before the course since she couldn't have predicted what the scores would be or if a curve would be given to anyone. No, that isn't why it's potentially unfair. No, there is no evidence that she computed standard deviations and a z score, though that's not directly relevant to my question anyway. Yes, you response is foolish and nonsensical.

You are correct - your professor could not have predicted the average of each section. She could have however decided to systematically give a bonus to the section which performed poorer to match the other section. Not as in "I CAN READ THE FUTURE" but as in, you know, "GUIDELINES".

Note that I didn't not say your prof "computed" anything. However, since, as far as you know, your professor does grant marks based on class percentile, you are fighting solely against yourself; the only reasonable impact her curving policy could have on you is psychological.

Perhaps I am being "foolish and nonsensical", yet the sentiment about you sounding entitled seems quite unanimous here.

 

[freemontie]

You are correct - your professor could not have predicted the average of each section. She could have however decided to systematically give a bonus to the section which performed poorer to match the other section. Not as in "I CAN READ THE FUTURE" but as in, you know, "GUIDELINES".

Note that I didn't not say your prof "computed" anything. However, since, as far as you know, your professor does grant marks based on class percentile, you are fighting solely against yourself; the only reasonable impact her curving policy could have on you is psychological.

Perhaps I am being "foolish and nonsensical", yet the sentiment about you sounding entitled seems quite unanimous here.

Away you foolish thing. You came back and this time you did read my original post in full - just so you could try to argue with me. This is actually a valid use of "tl;dr."

 

[deleted641469]

OP mentioned that the exams are administered at the same time

Oops sorry missed that somehow!

 

[freemontie]

Oops sorry missed that somehow!

People might be sharing answers from past exams though.

 

[Mad Jack]

Obviously. To avoid more smart aleck answers, let me restate the question: Is this egregious enough that I should complain about it?

No it isn't. Let it go. If you have to fight and scrape for points like this you won't last in med school anyway. The professor isn't obliged to curve at all. Get used to letting things like this slide, because it doesn't stop in undergrad.

 

[ski89]

No it isn't. Let it go. If you have to fight and scrape for points like this you won't last in med school anyway. The professor isn't obliged to curve at all. Get used to letting things like this slide, because it doesn't stop in undergrad.

I agree, profs are under no obligation to curve grades. However, if they do they are expected to do so in a uniform and ethical manner. Administrators will want to hear about this - but not until the end of the semester. Until then, just adapt and overcome.

 

[freemontie]

No it isn't. Let it go. If you have to fight and scrape for points like this you won't last in med school anyway. The professor isn't obliged to curve at all. Get used to letting things like this slide, because it doesn't stop in undergrad.

Yeah that seems to be the consensus.

In the end I may not *have* to fight and scrape for points. I did get a 90 on it and have a good chance at an A in the class as a whole. Some people might call this grade grubbing. And someone has already commented that it isn't a virtue. I just disagree with that sentiment. I would feel pretty foolish if I end up with 415 total points, for e.g. Especially since this professor doesn't give out A-'s or B+'s.

You're right that professors aren't obligated to curve. They are also not obligated to be "fair" in how they grade different students and sections (since as we've established in this thread- fair is subjective). But most strive to be. No doubt, this curving policy is a direct result of her attempt to be fair. Hence why I called it 'misguided.'

 

[Mad Jack]

Yeah that seems to be the consensus.

In the end I may not *have* to fight and scrape for points. I did get a 90 on it and have a good chance at an A in the class as a whole. Some people might call this grade grubbing. And someone has already commented that it isn't a virtue. I just disagree with that sentiment. I would feel pretty foolish if I end up with 415 total points, for e.g. Especially since this professor doesn't give out A-'s or B+'s.

You're right that professors aren't obligated to curve. They are also not obligated to be "fair" in how they grade different students and sections (since as we've established in this thread- fair is subjective). But most strive to be. No doubt, this curving policy is a direct result of her attempt to be fair. Hence why I called it 'misguided.'

Misguided, yes. Unfair, yes. Anything you can do to fix it? No. Just do your best to pass with as high a grade as possible.

 

[MrLogan13]

The average was 62, and you got a 90. What're you upset about? You're ahead of most of the class.

There was another thread a couple of weeks ago where LizzyM had some strong opinions about grade grubbing, and they weren't good. Don't be that guy. If you lost legit points because of grading errors, that's a different story.

 

[TheLionheart]

Yeah that seems to be the consensus.

In the end I may not *have* to fight and scrape for points. I did get a 90 on it and have a good chance at an A in the class as a whole. Some people might call this grade grubbing. And someone has already commented that it isn't a virtue. I just disagree with that sentiment. I would feel pretty foolish if I end up with 415 total points, for e.g. Especially since this professor doesn't give out A-'s or B+'s.

You're right that professors aren't obligated to curve. They are also not obligated to be "fair" in how they grade different students and sections (since as we've established in this thread- fair is subjective). But most strive to be. No doubt, this curving policy is a direct result of her attempt to be fair. Hence why I called it 'misguided.'

Most people would.

I had a friend in a Physics class who got an 85 on an exam (an A by that particular class' scale), and saw that he lost 2 points on 1 question when the answer key said he shouldn't have. He gave it back to our professor for a regrade, despite everyone telling him not to. Our professor gave him those 2 points back, and then regraded every other question too.

New grade: 60.

tl;dr: This is grade grubbing. Don't grub.

 

[ski89]

Most people would.

I had a friend in a Physics class who got an 85 on an exam (an A by that particular class' scale), and saw that he lost 2 points on 1 question when the answer key said he shouldn't have. He gave it back to our professor for a regrade, despite everyone telling him not to. Our professor gave him those 2 points back, and then regraded every other question too.

New grade: 60.

tl;dr: This is grade grubbing. Don't grub.

I disagree. Grade grubbing would include things like begging for extra credit, complaining about the fairness of a particular test question or arguing with a prof about why you should get a credit on a particular assignment or exam question.

Requesting full credit on an exam question that you clearly got correct based on the key? That's just sticking up for yourself and all the hard work you put in studying for the exam.

 

[kthxbai]

I'm taking a chemistry course. The professor teaches 2 sections. Exact same professor, lecture and exams given (the exams are also given together, at the same date/time.)

First section scored a 52. Second section scored a 62.

The professor decided to curve the first section so that their score was a 62 average as well (+10 curve). The second section's scores were left unchanged (0 curve)

Fair or not?

I contend that the grades should be averaged together and a curve made. I.e. both classes together-> average is 57. So give everyone in both sections a +5 curve. I feel curves are meant to account for tests of differing difficulty. But if both sections have the exact same exam/professor/lecture than they should be curved TOGETHER. (I'm not sure but I think the reason for the difference between the sections is a combination of the loweer scoring section being an early morning class + statistical anomaly).

Go to professor and complain (nicely)? It's not just this exam- there's one more exam to go and a final which means that if she continues this than the effect would be a huge. (i.e. if it turns out we just have smarter people in our section by chance).

You don't go to Maryland undergrad, do you? Same exact thing happened to me.

 

[TheLionheart]

I disagree. Grade grubbing would include things like begging for extra credit, complaining about the fairness of a particular test question or arguing with a prof about why you should get a credit on a particular assignment or exam question.

Requesting full credit on an exam question that you clearly got correct based on the key? That's just sticking up for yourself and all the hard work you put in studying for the exam.

And in this class, submitting your exam for a regrade on one question means the entire exam is subject to regrade. Sure, he should have gotten those two points back--and he did. Then he lost a bunch of others once the professor graded the actual test, rather than the class TAs.

Generally speaking, grading mistakes often work both ways, meaning he lost points on one question he shouldn't have, but got points on others that he shouldn't have either.

And this is exactly what we told our friend. He insisted he wanted those points. Needless to say, he regretted it.

 

[PantherPride]

I disagree. Grade grubbing would include things like begging for extra credit, complaining about the fairness of a particular test question or arguing with a prof about why you should get a credit on a particular assignment or exam question.

Requesting full credit on an exam question that you clearly got correct based on the key? That's just sticking up for yourself and all the hard work you put in studying for the exam.

In the grand scheme of things, 2 points isn't going to matter most of the time. This case is the definition of grade grubbing. Especially in a class like physics, where you may get partial credit on questions. I was a TA for an ochem class, and students would literally complain about missing a single point on the exam and want a regrade. It pisses the professor off, and I have no sympathy for the students. The rare time a student lost of point or two for something dumb was easily made up for by the leniency of giving points elsewhere. I assume thats what happened with this particular student and why the professor decided to grade 100% to the key and take away those lenient points.

 

[freemontie]

The average was 62, and you got a 90. What're you upset about? You're ahead of most of the class.

There was another thread a couple of weeks ago where LizzyM had some strong opinions about grade grubbing, and they weren't good. Don't be that guy. If you lost legit points because of grading errors, that's a different story.

You misunderstand something though. I would be equally concerned about her curving policy if my score had been a 60 vs. 90 vs. 100 (make it a 110). So I think that argument is a bit specious. e.g. "You got a 90 so why make an issue?" My desire to make an issue has nothing to do with the absolute value of my score. That line of thought doesn't even make sense to me- it implies that someone just got lucky to get a good score and thus should be happy and shut up.

PS- I find it funny that people reference any opinion that LizzyM made and consider it pre-med canon. Obviously, nobody likes grade grubbers (almost) by definition - unless they're the one's grubbing. In actuality, I don't consider myself a grade-grubber in the usual definition (begging for extra credit, arguing about answers, etc) but nor do I begrudge them. It's a form of fighting. Done expertly it's beneficial (special advantages over others) otherwise detrimental (annoying the grader and disadvantaging yourself on future grades). I would do it but I just don't have the energy for it considering the relatively low payoff.

 

[freemontie]

Most people would.

I had a friend in a Physics class who got an 85 on an exam (an A by that particular class' scale), and saw that he lost 2 points on 1 question when the answer key said he shouldn't have. He gave it back to our professor for a regrade, despite everyone telling him not to. Our professor gave him those 2 points back, and then regraded every other question too.

New grade: 60.

tl;dr: This is grade grubbing. Don't grub.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Unless your definition of grade grubbing is extremely general, i.e. "never question anything about a grade or grading policy, ever"

Also, your example doesn't seem realistic. If he saw that he lost two points by looking at the answer key- how could he have not known that he also gained many points unfairly? i.e. "My correct score should be a 60, and I got an 85; maybe I can make them correct some mistakes and not others to incorrectly get a score higher than 85?" Do I have that thought process right? I hope nobody is silly/stupid enough to take your anecdote to mean one shouldn't ask for a correction that is clearly warranted based on an answer key.

 

[TheLionheart]

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Unless your definition of grade grubbing is extremely general, i.e. "never questioning anything about a grade or grading policy"

Also, your example doesn't seem realistic. If he saw that he lost two points by looking at the answer key- how could he have not known that he also gained many points unfairly? i.e. "My correct score should be a 60, and I got an 85; maybe I can make them correct some mistakes and not others to incorrectly get a score higher than 85?" Do I have that thought process right? I hope nobody is silly/stupid enough to take your anecdote to mean one shouldn't ask for a correction that is clearly warranted based on an answer key.

If you got full points on a question, would you look at the key to compare your seemingly correct answer to what the professor said? Probably not. You look at questions that you missed points on.

You're not stupid if you don't risk your already great test grade for the sake of 2 points. It's called risk vs reward. As a physician, will you provide every patient you have with therapies that offer, at best, minimal benefits, but come with significant risks and potential for harm?

 

[mehc012]

Some profs feel that differences between sections are likely due to differences in the lectures - one ran short on time, someone asked 80 bajillion questions, they forgot a talking point, whatever.

Could it be random chance? Sure. But maybe not. I guess your prof finds it unlikely.

 

[freemontie]

You don't go to Maryland undergrad, do you? Same exact thing happened to me.

No, it's one of the ivies- but I post a lot here and don't want to say which one and fear revealing myself.

 

[freemontie]

New question: What do you guys think about starting a petition among my section to change her curving policy for the future exams? I imagine I can start one anonymously.

 

[kthxbai]

No, it's one of the ivies- but I post a lot here and don't want to say which one and fear revealing myself.

Interesting, the professor who did this was an ivy grad himself. Maybe it's a popular thing that they do there. You might want to take a look into how prevalent this policy is.

 

[Goro]

Just let it go.

New question: What do you guys think about starting a petition among my section to change her curving policy for the future exams? I imagine I can start one anonymously.

 

[edgerock24]

Yeah that seems to be the consensus.

In the end I may not *have* to fight and scrape for points. I did get a 90 on it and have a good chance at an A in the class as a whole. Some people might call this grade grubbing. And someone has already commented that it isn't a virtue. I just disagree with that sentiment. I would feel pretty foolish if I end up with 415 total points, for e.g. Especially since this professor doesn't give out A-'s or B+'s.

You're right that professors aren't obligated to curve. They are also not obligated to be "fair" in how they grade different students and sections (since as we've established in this thread- fair is subjective). But most strive to be. No doubt, this curving policy is a direct result of her attempt to be fair. Hence why I called it 'misguided.'

You misunderstand something though. I would be equally concerned about her curving policy if my score had been a 60 vs. 90 vs. 100 (make it a 110). So I think that argument is a bit specious. e.g. "You got a 90 so why make an issue?" My desire to make an issue has nothing to do with the absolute value of my score. That line of thought doesn't even make sense to me- it implies that someone just got lucky to get a good score and thus should be happy and shut up.

PS- I find it funny that people reference any opinion that LizzyM made and consider it pre-med canon. Obviously, nobody likes grade grubbers (almost) by definition - unless they're the one's grubbing. In actuality, I don't consider myself a grade-grubber in the usual definition (begging for extra credit, arguing about answers, etc) but nor do I begrudge them. It's a form of fighting. Done expertly it's beneficial (special advantages over others) otherwise detrimental (annoying the grader and disadvantaging yourself on future grades). I would do it but I just don't have the energy for it considering the relatively low payoff.

You're comparing apples and oranges here. Unless your definition of grade grubbing is extremely general, i.e. "never question anything about a grade or grading policy, ever"

Also, your example doesn't seem realistic. If he saw that he lost two points by looking at the answer key- how could he have not known that he also gained many points unfairly? i.e. "My correct score should be a 60, and I got an 85; maybe I can make them correct some mistakes and not others to incorrectly get a score higher than 85?" Do I have that thought process right? I hope nobody is silly/stupid enough to take your anecdote to mean one shouldn't ask for a correction that is clearly warranted based on an answer key.

No, it's one of the ivies- but I post a lot here and don't want to say which one and fear revealing myself.

New question: What do you guys think about starting a petition among my section to change her curving policy for the future exams? I imagine I can start one anonymously.

You talk too much .

 

[Dr Stephen T Colbert DFA]

You're going to be okay