Program Prestige and After-Residency Job Prospects

[NinerNiner999]

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Hey gang,

Just curious, will the specific program or its affiliated medical school have any bearing on the types of job offers one would recieve out of residency? For example, would a graduate from John's Hopkins EM residency expect a higher compensation or better opportunities than a graduate from a program with a lesser reputation?

Here as a hypothetical:

Christiana EM Residency (excellent EM program with a great reputation within EM) versus, say, Duke University (new/unproven EM program with an Excellent medical school and graduate program). Would one expect greater employment oppurtunities from Duke because of its universal "prestige" or from Christiana because of its EM-specific "prestige".

As an EM applicant myself, I have read all of the posts regarding "the best residency programs" and agree with what has been said - I am just trying to ascertain if there is some type of hierarchy that arises after residency is finished...

 

[GCS:3]

I don't know about any programs in particular, but it seems that the smaller programs (Allegheny/St Luke's) I've interviewed at have had no problems placing their residents.

I'm curious about the Duke scenario in particular. With them having a strong name, but having to fill with scramblers last year, I'm curious to see which way it will go. My assumption is that they'll have no problem finding work in desirable ED's.

 

[Apollyon]

I was in the ED one morning a few weeks ago with the Division Chief, and a phone call came in, out of the blue - a recruiter offering $320K/year for a rural hospital in NC, for BC/BE EPs. She said, "Our graduates won't have any trouble finding jobs!"

Duke is interviewing a lot more this year than last. Shouldn't have the same problem this year.

 

[DrQuinn]

Duke wont' have a problem finding jobs for their residents. NO program will have a problem. The market is wide open, for the most part, in most major markets...

I have a strong suspicion that recruiters and ED's that are hiring do NOT look at the match list to see which programs to contact!

🙂

Q, DO

 

[Sessamoid]

My feeling is that the older, more well-established programs will have an easier time placing their residents, and that in general they'll get better positions. Name doesn't count for nearly as much as who you know. If you're a graduate of a well-established program, you've got a lot of contacts built-in, and there's a larger degree of trust in the quality of the graduates built-in.

 

[GCS:3]

Originally posted by Apollyon
I was in the ED one morning a few weeks ago with the Division Chief, and a phone call came in, out of the blue - a recruiter offering $320K/year for a rural hospital in NC, for BC/BE EPs. She said, "Our graduates won't have any trouble finding jobs!"

Duke is interviewing a lot more this year than last. Shouldn't have the same problem this year.

That's what I figured, but still good to hear. I'll see you guys in January... 😎

 

[Sheerstress]

I would think that for most of the jobs out there, especially the rural ones, most recruiters or hospital chiefs of staff would not be especially particular about what specific EM residency program the physician completed, unless there were specific problems with that program.

It would probably be different if the graduate were looking for an academic position at a program other than the one at which he or she trained. Research, chief residency, references, and residency program completed would probably play a larger role in such a decision.

 

[spyderdoc]

There should be no problem finding jobs from any accredited EM program. I was in the third graduating class at Yale, and had no problem finding jobs on the West coast. Each of the graduates from my class, as well as the first two graduating classes from my program got the jobs that they most wanted. Some went to academics at large institutions, some went to community jobs. I figure the same will apply to Duke. I wouldn't even worry about this issue. There are plenty of jobs out there...

 

[NinerNiner999]

Spyderdoc - your situation poses exactly the question I am asking. When you graduated from Yale, you did so from a young, less-established program at the time. Do you think that your job opportunities came from your EM training, or from the fact you graduated from Yale? If it was in fact the EM program that landed you the job offers, than I suppose it really doesn't matter which program you choose to rank number 1. However, if you were offer your jobs based on your Yale Diploma, than prestige really does go a long way. (I am not by any means suggesting that Yale EM was a poor program, it just seems very appropriate given the initial question I proposed).

 

[DrQuinn]

I think name has extremely little to do with it... as said above, I think older established program may have a slight advantage, as they have alumni that are out in the markets working, and are probably more likely to give a nudge if asked to people at their institution about to finish.

Q< DO

 

[Sessamoid]

Originally posted by QuinnNSU
I think name has extremely little to do with it... as said above, I think older established program may have a slight advantage, as they have alumni that are out in the markets working, and are probably more likely to give a nudge if asked to people at their institution about to finish.

It's not even necessarily the blind allegiance that gives grads from established programs the advantage. It's the built-in web of trust that's in place. Say that a group of docs is looking for a candidate for an open position. If they interview a candidate from a program that one of their own docs came from, they can easily have that physician call the PD or other faculty back at the residency to get their honest opinion of the candidate. Assuming that the recent grad isn't a complete and total screwup, he's got the inside track since there's that built-in web of trust. Somebody he knows trusts him, and that person is in turn trusted by the previous grad from that program. You don't that by graduating from a "big name" program with no track record.

 

[EMIMG]

I think that one of the only situations where program "name" may come into play is with certain academic settings and positions. And, by this, I really don't mean name; rather, I mean length of training.

EM has either 1-3 year programs, 2-4 year programs, or 1-4 year programs. Some of the 4 year residency programs (where their residents have to have a fourth year of training before becoming Board Eligible) tend to not look at residents who have completed a three year program unless they have worked for a while or unless they have completed a fellowship. However, some of these programs also support fellowships where their fellows who have completed 3 years of training also serve as attending physicians for part of their fellowship. So, there is a slight double standard here.

The bottom line is that the name of the program probably really does not matter; rather, the acuity of the program may. People completing a more rural or community EM program may very well have problems going to one of the more urban areas to work since they may have to make an adjustment to new systems (i.e. lack of ancillary staff).

In terms of getting jobs, there are many that are out there. YOu need to find the one that is right for you. EM is a tight-knit community and knowing someone who knows someone is always a great way to get into the door. You will be suprised at some of the "lesser-known" programs who have very strong contacts through the EM community.

 

[SHOX]

Originally posted by EMIMG

The bottom line is that the name of the program probably really does not matter; rather, the acuity of the program may. People completing a more rural or community EM program may very well have problems going to one of the more urban areas to work since they may have to make an adjustment to new systems (i.e. lack of ancillary staff).

I disagree with the above statement. I work (as a fellow) at a ACS Level 1 Adult/Pediatric community academic program in Delaware and our residents see and do more than many of the academic places I have been at. We do not have fellows running around the hospital steeling procedures such as TV Pacing, Thoracotomy, Cric., Lateral Canthotomies, all ortho procedures. Specialists that come to work in our hospital are always amazed at what we do compared to what the EDs at the "academic" programs they came from did. We also do more US than more than 95% of academic programs out there.

As to the true content of this thread, our residency program is also a very old/ established program with graduates all over the country... we keep track of our grads and when a resident wants to go to a specific part of the country we hook them up with the grads as a contact. We also help introduce our residents at the national meetings to people we know at programs/hospitals the residents are interested in going to. It's all about the net-working!

 

[FoughtFyr]

Originally posted by SHOX
I disagree with the above statement.
[SNIP]
... we keep track of our grads and when a resident wants to go to a specific part of the country we hook them up with the grads as a contact. We also help introduce our residents at the national meetings to people we know at programs/hospitals the residents are interested in going to. It's all about the net-working!

Yes, I'd agree. But that is not as much about prestige as it is about having a great number of graduates. By this logic, the "best" programs are the ones with the most alumni (which may be true, but was not the question asked in the OP).

- H

 

[SHOX]

There are at least 2 distinct questions being asked:

1)How does one's residency affect how one gets a job? (the question that I addressed).

2)How can one rank the best programs? (this is an individual decision... you just have to know what is important to you).

The assertion that someone from a community program being unable to work in an inner city setting is ridiculous... the real question is why would they want to?

 

[NinerNiner999]

OK, so I just got back from my John's Hopkins interview, and during their closing remarks, they mentioned that not one graduate from their program has ever had difficulty working where they wanted, and that having completed a program at Hopkins, they were given opportunities that may not have been possible otherwise.

Would these "opportunities" be attributed to the status of JHU in medicine, from their well-established program (among the oldest EM programs), or a combination of both? SHOX has alluded to networking among graduates from a large, well-established program as helping the market for graduates from his program in Delaware. How would Johns Hopkins' name compare to his program when vying for the same spots (his program is also very well respected within emergency medicine).

CORE QUESTION - If one would go to Johns Hopkins EM residency, could they expect higher pay, choice of job location, and choice of position? This is what I was led to believe today.

 

[edinOH]

CORE QUESTION - If one would go to Johns Hopkins EM residency, could they expect higher pay, choice of job location, and choice of position? This is what I was led to believe today. [/B]

no.


On every interview I went on last year, I never head the program tell me that "Our applicants haven't been able to get the best jobs because they trained here." They all "get their number one job" or the "job they most wanted". And you know what? For the most part I think they were all telling me the truth!

 

[Sessamoid]

Originally posted by NinerNiner999
Would these "opportunities" be attributed to the status of JHU in medicine, from their well-established program (among the oldest EM programs), or a combination of both? SHOX has alluded to networking among graduates from a large, well-established program as helping the market for graduates from his program in Delaware. How would Johns Hopkins' name compare to his program when vying for the same spots (his program is also very well respected within emergency medicine).

I would guess if they have an advantage i the job market, it's largely because they're an old program with a good reputation. The networking part of the job hunt shouldn't be underestimated. If you have contacts out there, it beats any amount of "prestige" you may imagine. Just because they have the name "Johns Hopkins" doesn't give them much, but that fact that they have built a solid program with a long history of producing good physicians does. Most of us in EM know which programs have been around and what their reputations are as programs, and we don't pay much attention to the overall institution's "name recognition". I suspect Harvard residency grads get very little mileage out of their name since they have a brand-new program with no track record.

 

[Sutureboy]

I agree that the name of the institution is not important. It?s not surprising that every program claims to not have had a problem in placing graduates. The job market for EM grads has been wide open but this may be changing. This year, it has been more difficult to find positions in areas that were relatively easy in the past like New York or Boston. San Diego and LA have always been tough. Location of the program will give you an advantage in securing a local community job, particularly if the program has a good number of affiliates. The age of the program may also help locally as many of the former program grads will work in local EDs. But who your faculty are, is much more important than the age or reputationof the program. When a job is difficult to get, personal rapport between the recruiting director and one of your faculty is the single most critical factor in getting the position. Since there has been a lot of mobility on the part of the leaders in the field, you need to know who the main players are even more than the program?s rep. Cincinnati?s most important strength in terms of job security is Brian Gibler. A reference letter or a call from him will be meaningful to anyone he has trained or built a rapport with. UNC is much younger than a number of other programs but since Judy Tintinalli is there, it has a stronger network than many older programs. A residency where key senior attendings have left will have more trouble placing grads than a new program started by academic veterans who have the network and reputation.

 

[Sessamoid]

Originally posted by Sutureboy
Since there has been a lot of mobility on the part of the leaders in the field, you need to know who the main players are even more than the program?s rep. Cincinnati?s most important strength in terms of job security is Brian Gibler. A reference letter or a call from him will be meaningful to anyone he has trained or built a rapport with. UNC is much younger than a number of other programs but since Judy Tintinalli is there, it has a stronger network than many older programs. A residency where key senior attendings have left will have more trouble placing grads than a new program started by academic veterans who have the network and reputation.

I concur completely. Similarly in SoCal, UCLA Harbor grads have the benefit of Hockberger's name (look on the cover of your Rosens) and San Diego grads have Rosen himself.

 

[Sutureboy]

Actually, in the case of UCSD, this may be an example of a very competitive program loosing some of its edge. From what I hear, Rosen has left San Diego and is now splitting his time between Arizona and Boston.

 

[Sessamoid]

Originally posted by Sutureboy
Actually, in the case of UCSD, this may be an example of a very competitive program loosing some of its edge. From what I hear, Rosen has left San Diego and is now splitting his time between Arizona and Boston.

Interesting. I've been out of the loop from the academic world.

 

[Apollyon]

Originally posted by Sutureboy
Actually, in the case of UCSD, this may be an example of a very competitive program loosing some of its edge. From what I hear, Rosen has left San Diego and is now splitting his time between Arizona and Boston.

Hey, did you interview at Duke last week?