Promoting genuine MD-DO equality

[Internist O]

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There have been dually accredited residencies for years.

Why not have LCME accreditation for DO medical schools sans OMT?.

Especially now that all residencies are merging. The same arguments for
Merging residencies apply to dual accreditation for DO medical schools.

On the flip side of the equation, any MD medical schools that establish departments
Of Manual Medicine could receive COCA accreditation.

As has been argued, most or all DO schools could pass LCME standards.

The DO degree can be kept, but now everyone, and the nation,
will know that equal standards ( the same standards ) are met and enforced for
ALL medical schools as well as residencies.

Gradually even more students of high caliber will want to do the DO degree, because the
highly questionable feature of a separate accrediting standard is no longer an issue.

Then osteopathic medicine really would stand apart based solely on its distinctive philosophy
And NOT on any lower standard that might be perceived by pre-meds and residency PDs.

 

[DrWhozits]

Some of the reasons for this not happening (IMO):

1. COCA likes have a purpose. No MD school is going to seek accreditation from them when DO schools are done by LCME. COCA will be completely irrelevant and dissolved, which means they wouldn’t support this.

2. Sure, some, maybe most of the DO schools would be able to get LCME accreditation. Some wouldn’t and would have to close. But either way, the LCME has much more stringent rules and requirements, which cost $$$ and hassle for administrations who are making tons of money now with basically zero effort.

3. While being LCME accredited would certainly be at least met neutral to DO students at worst, and extremely beneficial at best, it doesn’t really help the individual schools. If schools that struggled to match well didn’t get a ****load of applicants every year, they would be incentive to change. However, schools are still the gate keepers to being a doctor, so pre meds will line up to take any spot that they can.

Point being, the administration still makes their money by keeping the status quo and really only stand to lose money if they sought accreditation via LCME because they would actually have to make changes themselves.

Edit: also the same argument as the GME single accreditation doesn’t really apply, because the AOA was more or less strong armed by the ACGME. If something similar were to happen, I could see a merger of the LCME and COCA but until then, I wouldn’t hold my breath.

 

[Mad Jack]

Such childish optimism about people wanting to adhere to higher standards and do what is best instead of lining their own pockets

 

[Internist O]

Your responses, possibly correct and definitely cynical, serve only to
demonstrate the pure hypocrisy inherent in "separate but equal" educational systems.

Thus, COCA really serves only itself, according to your views. , I am really hoping that the advent of the new Scientific and Engineering schools
of medicine will sweep all these horrible self- serving political organizations into the dustbin of history.

In reality, the only thing I trust at least is the HONEST application of the natural sciences to address
human health and disease. Same as Van't Hoff wrote in his circa 1900 treatise on "Physical Chemistry
in the Service of the Sciences.", delivered at the University of Chicago.

In response to the cynicism displayed above, let me just note that INSISTING on equally high
standards for all phases of medical education and practice may, despite self serving hypocrisy
and cynicism, come to be universally respected because of the underlining force of truth and
logic that this position conveys.

The answer to cynicism and self serving hypocrisy is to first note their existence and then turn right
around and push for and insist upon equally high standards based on the truth and logic of this
position. Note that I do not suggest COCA accredit all schools, just the manual medicine
components where they exist.

The responses I see here further demonstrate that their authors do NOT respect COCA and
strongly suspect the DO profession of some degree of hypocrisy.

What I am telling you is to adopt and adhere to truth, logic, reason, and continuous maintenance of
high standards, and to call out self serving hypocrisy and self-serving policies each time you see them.
Manual medicine can likely, in some cases be put on a firm scientific foundation sans it's cult-like
Blind-do-not-question -us attitude it sometimes displays

Once you adopt high standards uniformly, respect and success follow like Dawn follows Night.

 

[Rekt]

Your responses, possibly correct and definitely cynical, serve only to
demonstrate the pure hypocrisy inherent in "separate but equal" educational systems.

Thus, COCA really serves only itself, according to your views. , I am really hoping that the advent of the new Scientific and Engineering schools
of medicine will sweep all these horrible self- serving political organizations into the dustbin of history.

In reality, the only thing I trust at least is the HONEST application of the natural sciences to address
human health and disease. Same as Van't Hoff wrote in his circa 1900 treatise on "Physical Chemistry
in the Service of the Sciences.", delivered at the University of Chicago.

In response to the cynicism displayed above, let me just note that INSISTING on equally high
standards for all phases of medical education and practice may, despite self serving hypocrisy
and cynicism, come to be universally respected because of the underlining force of truth and
logic that this position conveys.

The answer to cynicism and self serving hypocrisy is to first note their existence and then turn right
around and push for and insist upon equally high standards based on the truth and logic of this
position. Note that I do not suggest COCA accredit all schools, just the manual medicine
components where they exist.

The responses I see here further demonstrate that their authors do NOT respect COCA and
strongly suspect the DO profession of some degree of hypocrisy.

What I am telling you is to adopt and adhere to truth, logic, reason, and continuous maintenance of
high standards, and to call out self serving hypocrisy and self-serving policies each time you see them.
Manual medicine can likely, in some cases be put on a firm scientific foundation sans it's cult-like
Blind-do-not-question -us attitude it sometimes displays

Once you adopt high standards uniformly, respect and success follow like Dawn follows Night.

This entire thing makes me cringe so hard I'm going to have a stroke.

 

[Lawpy]

This entire thing makes me cringe so hard I'm going to have a stroke.

I think it's satire but I'm not sure

 

[Osminog]

I think it's satire but I'm not sure

Check out his posts on the April Fool's thread. I don't think it's satire. It's just someone who made an account for the sole purpose of spouting strange opinions and lecturing people.

 

[DrWhozits]

Your responses, possibly correct and definitely cynical, serve only to
demonstrate the pure hypocrisy inherent in "separate but equal" educational systems.

Thus, COCA really serves only itself, according to your views. , I am really hoping that the advent of the new Scientific and Engineering schools
of medicine will sweep all these horrible self- serving political organizations into the dustbin of history.

In reality, the only thing I trust at least is the HONEST application of the natural sciences to address
human health and disease. Same as Van't Hoff wrote in his circa 1900 treatise on "Physical Chemistry
in the Service of the Sciences.", delivered at the University of Chicago.

In response to the cynicism displayed above, let me just note that INSISTING on equally high
standards for all phases of medical education and practice may, despite self serving hypocrisy
and cynicism, come to be universally respected because of the underlining force of truth and
logic that this position conveys.

The answer to cynicism and self serving hypocrisy is to first note their existence and then turn right
around and push for and insist upon equally high standards based on the truth and logic of this
position. Note that I do not suggest COCA accredit all schools, just the manual medicine
components where they exist.

The responses I see here further demonstrate that their authors do NOT respect COCA and
strongly suspect the DO profession of some degree of hypocrisy.

What I am telling you is to adopt and adhere to truth, logic, reason, and continuous maintenance of
high standards, and to call out self serving hypocrisy and self-serving policies each time you see them.
Manual medicine can likely, in some cases be put on a firm scientific foundation sans it's cult-like
Blind-do-not-question -us attitude it sometimes displays

Once you adopt high standards uniformly, respect and success follow like Dawn follows Night.

 

[Gurby]

Your responses, possibly correct and definitely cynical, serve only to
demonstrate the pure hypocrisy inherent in "separate but equal" educational systems.

Thus, COCA really serves only itself, according to your views. , I am really hoping that the advent of the new Scientific and Engineering schools
of medicine will sweep all these horrible self- serving political organizations into the dustbin of history.

In reality, the only thing I trust at least is the HONEST application of the natural sciences to address
human health and disease. Same as Van't Hoff wrote in his circa 1900 treatise on "Physical Chemistry
in the Service of the Sciences.", delivered at the University of Chicago.

In response to the cynicism displayed above, let me just note that INSISTING on equally high
standards for all phases of medical education and practice may, despite self serving hypocrisy
and cynicism, come to be universally respected because of the underlining force of truth and
logic that this position conveys.

The answer to cynicism and self serving hypocrisy is to first note their existence and then turn right
around and push for and insist upon equally high standards based on the truth and logic of this
position. Note that I do not suggest COCA accredit all schools, just the manual medicine
components where they exist.

The responses I see here further demonstrate that their authors do NOT respect COCA and
strongly suspect the DO profession of some degree of hypocrisy.

What I am telling you is to adopt and adhere to truth, logic, reason, and continuous maintenance of
high standards, and to call out self serving hypocrisy and self-serving policies each time you see them.
Manual medicine can likely, in some cases be put on a firm scientific foundation sans it's cult-like
Blind-do-not-question -us attitude it sometimes displays

Once you adopt high standards uniformly, respect and success follow like Dawn follows Night.

 

[Goro]

There have been dually accredited residencies for years.

Why not have LCME accreditation for DO medical schools sans OMT?.

Especially now that all residencies are merging. The same arguments for
Merging residencies apply to dual accreditation for DO medical schools.

On the flip side of the equation, any MD medical schools that establish departments
Of Manual Medicine could receive COCA accreditation.

As has been argued, most or all DO schools could pass LCME standards.

The DO degree can be kept, but now everyone, and the nation,
will know that equal standards ( the same standards ) are met and enforced for
ALL medical schools as well as residencies.

Gradually even more students of high caliber will want to do the DO degree, because the
highly questionable feature of a separate accrediting standard is no longer an issue.

Then osteopathic medicine really would stand apart based solely on its distinctive philosophy
And NOT on any lower standard that might be perceived by pre-meds and residency PDs.

And why, pray tell, would the AOA be interested in this?
And why would LCME care either?
I understand the desire to have a scientific grounding in the basics and practice of Medicine, but it shouldn't be a belief system either.

 

[Internist O]

Because then all PDs and all patients would be guaranteed of uniformly equal
and acceptably high standards of medical
education. The very same reasons for residency merger.

Note that it is NOT a question of each organization's' "interest"
( read SELF-interest), it is a question of what is genuinely in the public
interest-just like any other licensed profession- For the AOA,
It guarantees that it's alternative physician training system meets the same
standards as the major one does, and eliminates all question of
the different philosophy merely being a dodge for having a system of
lower standards than the main system. This is a benefit of enormous value.

For COCA, it offers the unique opportunity to put manual medicine
right into the heart of its biggest critics-the MD schools and prove its
worth to its biggest skeptics. Let the DOs send their best manual medicine
Professors to demonstrate directly what they have been teaching for decades.
Let there be objective measures that demonstrate the validity of the methods
( this could be done).

See also the social writings of Rudolph Virchow on the legit ate role of
medicine in society- it is the opposite of self-serving.

 

[el_duderino]

I don't think any MD school would be interested in the additional administrative overhead and hassle of obtaining COCA accreditation. Why would they? Would it help them attract better applicants, get them more research or alumni dollars, or increase their prestige?

No, it wouldn't.

On the flipside, many DO schools would probably love to get LCME accreditation. That would definitely get them better applicants and more money and prestige.

COCA would never allow it. There's no incentive on the part of LCME or COCA to do this. You're asking for programs to adhere to two separate sets of accreditation guidelines. That's a lot of investment with no return whatsoever.

It also really doesn't serve your goal of "equality" in any real way. It wouldn't benefit the students' education, and it wouldn't benefit the public. It would be to just make physicians feel better about an "equal system" with "high standards."

If you don't think COCA's standards are sufficiently high, then your problem is with COCA's standards, not with whether LECOM could get LCME accredited.

 

[Osminog]

See also the social writings of Rudolph Virchow on the legit ate role of medicine in society- it is the opposite of self-serving.

Could you PM me the full assigned reading list when you get a chance?

 

[Ho0v-man]

Lol. Since when does any administrative anything do anything that isn’t financially motivated? The ugly truth is that if there isn’t money to be made then no one is doing anything. What’s being proposed is putting forth effort that could cost money with no guarantee that it would generate money. No rational organization would do that and anyone who suggested they should would be quickly unemployed. OP is an idealistic child.

 

[Internist O]

Not the whole MD school, just MANUAL MEDICINE for COCA. You also just do not understand
that separate but equal is never equal. As far as admin, if residencies can be
dually accredited so can medical schools

And if manual medicine does become part of MD schools, than the AOA
would love it-proof of concept achieved. Makes sense with residency merger.

For someone like you, the residency merger must come as a real shocker

The idea is for all American medical schools, like all American residencies, to achieve
Minimum uniformly high educational standards- MD and DO.

Since residencies are merging, how can the LCME NOT be interested in making sure DO
graduates meet minimum standards? DOs will fill the very same GME as their graduates.
If LCME purpose is to make sure all physicians meet minimum educational
standards, then of course they will be interested.

Whether you admit it or not, this is absolutely in the best interest of patients, program directors
Of residencies and all medical students.

Do you see two separate sets of standards for Law, Engineering, or Architects?

Of course not and for similar reasons.

I went to DO school at a time BEFORE residency merger and before DOs could even take
MD licensing exams for a medical license.

Like it or not, these two systems are moving closer and closer together,
regardless of whose ridiculous little power structure is threatened- as they should
and as they must.

I will look up Virchow again.

 

[austintr]

I have a feeling you interview very well, OP.

 

[Mad Jack]

Because then all PDs and all patients would be guaranteed of uniformly equal
and acceptably high standards of medical
education. The very same reasons for residency merger.

Note that it is NOT a question of each organization's' "interest"
( read SELF-interest), it is a question of what is genuinely in the public
interest-just like any other licensed profession- For the AOA,
It guarantees that it's alternative physician training system meets the same
standards as the major one does, and eliminates all question of
the different philosophy merely being a dodge for having a system of
lower standards than the main system. This is a benefit of enormous value.

For COCA, it offers the unique opportunity to put manual medicine
right into the heart of its biggest critics-the MD schools and prove its
worth to its biggest skeptics. Let the DOs send their best manual medicine
Professors to demonstrate directly what they have been teaching for decades.
Let there be objective measures that demonstrate the validity of the methods
( this could be done).

See also the social writings of Rudolph Virchow on the legit ate role of
medicine in society- it is the opposite of self-serving.

Except they lose all power, functionally, should they cede to the LCME. You clearly don't understand power and how it affects people and their decisions. Giving up power for the "greater good" is a situation that rarely happens in reality, as most in power are there as much to serve themselves as any other reason, and most often more so

 

[DrWhozits]

I would not be surprised if the two merged. But it would have 0% to do with the COCA wanting any of the idealistic stuff you have spewed in this thread.

If a merger were to happen, it would be initiated by the group with power aka the LCME. Not COCA. And not for the reasons you have brought up.

 

[Internist O]

Well mad jack, since I was commissioned as a Medical Officer, USAF, and have also served as the
Clinical Director of a 3000 inmate Federal Prison, I have both given and taken Orders under
both UCMJ law, as well as serving as a sworn law enforcement officer for the Federal Government.
In addition, I have directly supervised Medical Officers, a DO and an MD-Ph.D., who both
Worked directly for me ( very fine people, also)- as well as the usual PAs and NPs and RNs
And LPNs and EMTs, and so forth. I can personally assure you that the DOJ and the DOD
both want high quality physicians. In addition, USAF was by far the finest and most
logical organization it was my pleasure to serve with-they are scientists and engineers, they
run their organization efficiently and logically, with uniformly high standards (pun?).

So yes, I rather think I know all about "power politics"

Hint: The only REAL " power" anyone has is to strive to make the world a better place, and to
help the people who work so hard every day to fulfill their duties and care for the families who
love them. All else is illusion. Medicine , like DOD and DOJ, is a public service job.

At the end of the day, megalomaniacs ( as may be the case) of these organizations aside, their only legitimate function
is enumerated in the paragraph above.

See the Wikipedia Article on Rudolph Virchow , social and political medicine, to see why many
docs believe in his example. But note well also that even he, like Newton, made some large scientific blunders-
which is why our ideas MUST be subjected to rigorous testing.

When I first applied to medical schools ( and I got 4 MD interviews and 1 DO interviews), I told
everyone I wanted to apply Physical Chemistry and Physics to Medicine ( 34 old MCAT- now 515 or a little
more). Well, they uniformly rejected me and the next year I talked only about family medicine- and finally got
in at NYCOM with a full USAF HPSP scholarship. science GPA about 3.5.

Next Saturday, I am going to Case Western open house physiology and biophysics to see about vigorously
pursuing the Ph.D., with as much P.Chem as I can torque into my program.

Why?

Not for money, but because I really believe that the time has come where the physical sciences
can now take on a much more central role in advancing Medicine.

NYCOM has just begun a Ph.D MSTP program for 2019, and they are working with the NYIT school
of engineering. Also a large new joint Chemistry laboratory has opened there.

It is absolutely the right decision, and I am very proud of them.

 

[DrWhozits]

What are we talking about again?

 

[Jacquejam1234]

Well mad jack, since I was commissioned as a Medical Officer, USAF, and have also served as the
Clinical Director of a 3000 inmate Federal Prison, I have both given and taken Orders under
both UCMJ law, as well as serving as a sworn law enforcement officer for the Federal Government.
In addition, I have directly supervised Medical Officers, a DO and an MD-Ph.D., who both
Worked directly for me ( very fine people, also)- as well as the usual PAs and NPs and RNs
And LPNs and EMTs, and so forth. I can personally assure you that the DOJ and the DOD
both want high quality physicians. In addition, USAF was by far the finest and most
logical organization it was my pleasure to serve with-they are scientists and engineers, they
run their organization efficiently and logically, with uniformly high standards (pun?).

So yes, I rather think I know all about "power politics"

Hint: The only REAL " power" anyone has is to strive to make the world a better place, and to
help the people who work so hard every day to fulfill their duties and care for the families who
love them. All else is illusion. Medicine , like DOD and DOJ, is a public service job.

At the end of the day, megalomaniacs ( as may be the case) of these organizations aside, their only legitimate function
is enumerated in the paragraph above.

See the Wikipedia Article on Rudolph Virchow , social and political medicine, to see why many
docs believe in his example. But note well also that even he, like Newton, made some large scientific blunders-
which is why our ideas MUST be subjected to rigorous testing.

When I first applied to medical schools ( and I got 4 MD interviews and 1 DO interviews), I told
everyone I wanted to apply Physical Chemistry and Physics to Medicine ( 34 old MCAT- now 515 or a little
more). Well, they uniformly rejected me and the next year I talked only about family medicine- and finally got
in at NYCOM with a full USAF HPSP scholarship. science GPA about 3.5.

Next Saturday, I am going to Case Western open house physiology and biophysics to see about vigorously
pursuing the Ph.D., with as much P.Chem as I can torque into my program.

Why?

Not for money, but because I really believe that the time has come where the physical sciences
can now take on a much more central role in advancing Medicine.

NYCOM has just begun a Ph.D MSTP program for 2019, and they are working with the NYIT school
of engineering. Also a large new joint Chemistry laboratory has opened there.

It is absolutely the right decision, and I am very proud of them.

You must be fun at parties.

 

[el_duderino]

If your problem is that COCA standards aren't high enough, then your problem is with COCA.

That's the end of the story. Giving individual schools the option of becoming LCME accredited solves absolutely nothing whatsoever and creates massive headaches for literally everyone involved. Mandating LCME accreditation effectively makes COCA cease to exist. There might be a good argument to make that COCA should stop existing, but that's not the argument you're making.

Your proposed solution is a poor one. There are problems in medical education, but at the end of the day your "solution" makes more work for everyone and does nothing to improve physician education or provide public benefit of any kind.

Also, you talk about your MD acceptances and whatnot... but you're not a physician? Why are you telling us all this stuff? No one cares.

 

[Norwood-Sano]

What are we talking about again?

I agree, I skimmed and saw the usual MD vs DO but now I’m lost

 

[libertyyne]

1. Most DO schools would not meet current LCME requirements especially in terms of research facilities, access to research, and possibly even the rotations with residents just to name a few standards.
2. MDs and DOs are currently equal in terms of scope of practice and access to residency training and specialties.
3. Most people are not going to DO schools because of the "philosphy".
4. There are significant differences in outcomes and possibly interests of DO students and differences in research productivity, board scores, access to home sub-specialty residency programs .
5. The MD side really has nothing to gain from said merger of accrediting bodies.
6. There is a large difference in cost of opening an MD school vs a DO school and it is reflection of the difference in standards by accrediting bodies.
7. The mission of most DO schools is not to conduct research, rather generate PCPs, so even after merger it is unlikely that there would be a massive change in outcomes or focus.
8. The best way to fix this "problem" is to raise the standards on the DO side for starting residency programs, affiliating with large tertiary medical centers and investing in research facilities, staff, and obtaining grants. But these would require money, endowments, and affiliations with major universities which a majority of DO schools do not have. This would be like asking a local religious university to change its focus to become a research powerhouse. Easier said than done.


You are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. If you want to be an ivory tower academic physician, or be regarded as such go there to begin with. If not, attend residency there.