DocJP

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I'm hoping to get some assistance...trying to gather information to make the best decision....please give your input (especially from current students and alumnu) on what I have on the chart below...am I correct? wrong? Also, any advice?

My Goals:
1.GOOD medical education
a.Strong science foundation: systems is the best
b.Learn clinical skills during 1st and 2nd year?
2.Rotations that will enable me to get residency in CA (of course it also depends on my grades and boards)
a.Rotations at teaching hospitals

Touro
135 students
Pro:
- located in CA
- rotations in CA = create relationship with CA hospital
- pretty good curriculum
- on-campus housing
Cons?
- rumor of not so good professors?
- fairly new school
Questions:
- is there a coordinator that helps you set-up your rotations
- how is the faculty
- do you gain clinical skills during 1st and 2nd yr? preceptorship? actor patients?
- Is the curriculm system approach?

KCUMB

200 students
Pro:
- great curriculum – system approach
- housing across the street
Cons?
- 3rd and 4th year rotations only with core hospitals
Questions:
- Preceptorship? Stimulated patient?

DMU
250? students
Pros:
- great reputation
- great curriculum
- Harvey
- Option of doing rotation outside core hospitals during 4th year
- Cheapest tutition
- good student/professor/TA ratio for anatomy and OMT
Cons?
- it’s in Des Moines, IA
Question:
- For 4th year, will someone help us set it up rotations outside core hospitals?
- For the curriculum is a systems approach?

NYCOM
300 students
Pros:
- very high tech
- in NY
- 4th year someone will help you set it up
- very nice staff
- Stan – lots of clinical skills
Cons?
-rumors of low board passing rate – 80%?
-expensive: tuition and housing
Question:
- what kind of approach is the curriculum?

Western
200 students
Pros:
- located in CA
- rotations in CA = create relationship with CA hospital
- good curriculum: foundation and then systems approach
- affiliated with 45 hospitals
Cons?
- rumors of low board passing rate – 90%
- expensive: tuition, housing
- need to commute

Thank you! Any input will be much appreciated :love:
 

macman

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your post:

DMU
250? students
Pros:
- great reputation
- great curriculum
- Harvey
- Option of doing rotation outside core hospitals during 4th year
- Cheapest tutition
- good student/professor/TA ratio for anatomy and OMT
Cons?
- it’s in Des Moines, IA
Question:
- For 4th year, will someone help us set it up rotations outside core hospitals?
- For the curriculum is a systems approach?


-Help to set up rotations is there-admitedly-some coordinators are better than others: that being said you are probably better doing your own research (really not that difficult) and then telling them where to send the paperwork. The major advantage to the fourth year schedule is the high amount of flexibility-I did my whole fourth year in Boston at major teaching hospitals (except 1 FP month in Colorado)
-1st year is class by class, 2nd year does the systems-I thought this hybrid system to be very good

happy hunting
 

babyruth

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Des Moines = 200 not 250 students....
The curriculum is didactic the first year with clinical correlates and the option to do elective interest classes and the second year is systems based heavier clinical approach. You also have the option if you are interested into dooing a MPH or MHA degree simulataneously here.
We also have lots of people of california here and I haven't heard too many complaints from them about Iowa, maybe the weather and lack of variety in restaurant choices.
 

LadyDoc

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DocJP said:

KCUMB

200 students
Pro:
- great curriculum – system approach
- housing across the street
Cons?
- 3rd and 4th year rotations only with core hospitals
Questions:
- Preceptorship? Stimulated patient?
I am a first year at KCUMB so I can at least address your pros and cons about that particular school.

Pros:

1. The students. The students at KCUMB are absolutely fantastic. We have a small campus, so everybody knows each other for the most part, and everybody is very friendly and willing to help each other. You can stop by and ask any students you see any question you want, and if they can’t help you, they will be able to direct you to someone who can. The students really make what would otherwise be a very good school into a great school.

2. The instructors. The instruction at KCUMB is top-notch. Every year, KCUMB students have a higher than average board pass rate, which is a direct testament to how good the professors are. Virtually all the professors are approachable and willing to meet with students anytime a student wants. There are no office hours – you are always welcome to drop in, e-mail, or call any instructor. There’s always an instructor here or there with a style that you may not like, but you don’t HAVE to go to their lectures.

3. The curriculum. The way the classes are arranged sure makes it easier to learn. Our president has done great things with the school, which was in trouble before she took over 10 years ago. The lecture PowerPoint slides are printed for us and are usually also posted to Blackboard. We get essentially free printing from school computers too, so that’s handy.

Cons

1. The professionalism scorecard debacle. It’s like going to school under the Third Reich, and I don’t make that reference lightly. During lectures, there is a faculty member in the back of the room with photos of all the students. If a student comes in late, leaves early, or isn’t dressed according to the dress code, it is noted and the offending student gets a negative mark on the elusive “professionalism score card.” There is no chance at rebuttal, and it is impossible to find out any specifics in order to change whatever the offending behavior was.

I say elusive because its existence was only a rumor until they suddenly showed up in our mailboxes filled with negative marks and comments. For example, 60 students (of 239) didn’t fill in the SSN box on the BACK of their Scantrons during a particular test. We test in two separate rooms, and the room with the 60 who didn’t fill it out correctly weren’t told to do so (the other room was). Some office assistant somewhere got mad because she had to bubble in the back of the Scantrons and so these students got a negative mark on their scorecards, and the only explanation was “test misconduct.” You can imagine how happy that made those students. To the administration’s credit, they did eventually, after much uproar, agree to change the comment. They left the negative marks however. The mentality is very much “faculty is always right, students are always wrong.”

There are only a handful of faculty who have the Big Brother mentality, but they have a huge impact. The vast majority of the administration building is filled with wonderful, helpful people. Sadly, it’s Big Brother who is hurting us though. Big Brother loves to jump to conclusions, and always assumes the very worst about any student. Before she even speaks to a student about an alleged infraction, she files a negative mark on their scorecard. Once she’s put a negative mark down, it is set in stone, since to remove the mark might be perceived as a mistake.

Recently, my class had some issues with campus security (or the lack thereof). Whenever a topic comes up on Blackboard that the Big Brother doesn’t like, some who have more vocal posts on the topic are written up as having a “major professionalism lapse.” The reasons are vague, and there is no requirement to explain to a student why a bad mark is given.

2. The neighborhood. Honestly, I don’t see #2 as a major issue. The school does need some more security, and we’re all hoping they aren’t just waiting for something horrible to happen before they do so, but so far this year, the worst that’s happened is a few cars have been broken into.

The students addressed the issue of security, but hit a huge nerve with somebody in the administration. We were told that we could only discuss “academic” issues on Blackboard, and to flex their muscles, quite a few “major lapses” were handed out on the ever-popular professionalism scorecards.

KCUMB is such a great school, but to have a tiny minority of uncaring, mean-spirited faculty members in positions of such influence over students scares me, and it makes me wonder what the future hold for this great school.

Honestly, if I’d known how brutally Machiavellian it would be here, I never would have come. There are a very select few with absolutely no compassion, understanding, or tolerance for anything or anyone who doesn’t agree with them. I am very happy here otherwise, and because I love the school so much (and the students), I probably won’t transfer. My advice would be to come interview here, but keep this school as a backup in case you don’t get into your first choice. You’ll get a great education and meet great people here, but you will also have to put with the Gestapo. :scared:

Wow, that was a lot longer than I meant it to be – sorry. I didn’t mean to vent so much; I guess I was more upset by the way we’ve been treated than I realized.
 

Docgeorge

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[EDIT]

In the end you have to make up your mind all on your own, take everything that is said on this or any other anyonamous fourm with a grain of salt. But ask your self, were you left allone with the students, did you have the ability to walk around own your own and talk to current students ranther then chosen few? Some of these will tip you off to what's really going on at the school.

Asking questions of current students from a random sampling will give you the best info about the school.
 

Docgeorge

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Oh one more thing, whats up with not have electronic locks on those buildings espicially in that neighborhood. The argument that they dont have enough money is BS you know what they charge for tuition?
 

cooldreams

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Docgeorge said:
Oh one more thing, whats up with not have electronic locks on those buildings espicially in that neighborhood. The argument that they dont have enough money is BS you know what they charge for tuition?

hah i dunno about the locks... in my opinion they are easier to by pass than regular locks... u jus need different tools...

anyways yea i have talked to a ton of ppl at kcumb most of which were not "set up" for me to talk to and some of these were during the interview day.... in the past week i have heard of like this email thing for the first time. something musta just happend, but i have honestly never heard of this as a problem before. i am sure the administration is trying to do something in the best interest of everyone involved. i dunno... i cant refute anything anyone has said, but my own personal experiences have been nothing but THE BEST at kcumb and i have been in contact with a number of different schools and students... everyone just seems exceptionally happy there... that is my impression from generally everyone, including the adminstration staff of which i have also talked to in person one on one.
 

Docgeorge

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It's not the expert lock picker thats worrysome, it some random "community" person walking in.
 

angryinjun

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KCUMB is not as bad as it is being made out to be. The majority of what KCUMB does, it does right. I think it puts the right amount of emphasis on OMT and the right amount of emphasis on the rest of the curriculum. As of now they are still working out the kinks in the professionism scorecard, which i assume is something every school is dealing with if we are to believe the admin.... We do go to school in the heart of darkness...

But it is easy to complain about the handful of thing the school does wrong while neglecting the mountain of items it does right. For instance, I like the patient interviews that we have. The reason is this, i am gonna have the rest of my life to develop diff dx skillz and work up skillz, but i only have 2 years to learn how not to come off as a douche bag during an interview. Also our diff dx skills are being polished at KCUMB, DocGeorge, I think your buddy failed to mention how freaking amazing Doc Freilander is at teaching path (developing a DX based on history and slides) and on physical exams (heart sounds, funky joints etc).

but all in all, what makes or breaks any school is going to be your classmates, you can have a cool class that helps each other out, or you can have a group of gunners who make it absolutely miserable. For the most part KCUMB has done an excellent job with picking up bright kids who don't suck. Can that be said about other med schools DO or MD?
 

Docgeorge

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My friend has nothing but good things to say about ERF and most of the other faculty. My friend feels that it's the admin and very select few faculty that make life hard a KCUMB. No school is perfect but it's better to know whats going on and learn the discenting views so that the OP can make an informed descion.

Ulitmately every accredated school will give you the minimums to become a physician. The thing that each person lucky enough to have a choice is to, decide what other things beyond the minimus do each school offer, and how do those offerings going to impact you those (partner,children) who are on this journey with you. By offering I mean location, extra courses, support structure, and atmosphere.

The one that that we must do as professionals and as students is always question, always ask whats wrong and what can be fixed or made better. I might evean buy the argument that you should'nt air diry laundry in public, but on the blackboard where only you and your colluges have access to, thats a little ridiculus.

Professional score cards are not issiues facing many other schools. Professionalism must be taught, for accredidation, not kept on scorecards. We handle that here by having lectures on ethics and conduct and the patient physician relatationship, not by professinal scorecards that some secratery can get pissed off at you for not bubbleing in your SSN on a test and mark your file (which your residency director will get correct me if I'm wrong) with an entry saying Test Misconduct. What is that director going to think?
 
OP
D

DocJP

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Thanks to all those that have responded. I really appreciate it.

Any current students from TUCOM or NYCOM???
 

aphasia

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DocJP said:
Thanks to all those that have responded. I really appreciate it.

Any current students from TUCOM or NYCOM???
There are tons of threads on NYCOM.
As for TUCOM, there are a couple recent ones that have been pretty helpful.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=171014

the accepted students thread in pre osteo
erm..I would do a search. I can't think of the other ones.
 

Lola Jenkins

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LadyDoc said:
I am a first year at KCUMB so I can at least address your pros and cons about that particular school.

Pros:

1. The students. The students at KCUMB are absolutely fantastic. We have a small campus, so everybody knows each other for the most part, and everybody is very friendly and willing to help each other. You can stop by and ask any students you see any question you want, and if they can’t help you, they will be able to direct you to someone who can. The students really make what would otherwise be a very good school into a great school.

2. The instructors. The instruction at KCUMB is top-notch. Every year, KCUMB students have a higher than average board pass rate, which is a direct testament to how good the professors are. Virtually all the professors are approachable and willing to meet with students anytime a student wants. There are no office hours – you are always welcome to drop in, e-mail, or call any instructor. There’s always an instructor here or there with a style that you may not like, but you don’t HAVE to go to their lectures.

3. The curriculum. The way the classes are arranged sure makes it easier to learn. Our president has done great things with the school, which was in trouble before she took over 10 years ago. The lecture PowerPoint slides are printed for us and are usually also posted to Blackboard. We get essentially free printing from school computers too, so that’s handy.

Cons

1. The professionalism scorecard debacle. It’s like going to school under the Third Reich, and I don’t make that reference lightly. During lectures, there is a faculty member in the back of the room with photos of all the students. If a student comes in late, leaves early, or isn’t dressed according to the dress code, it is noted and the offending student gets a negative mark on the elusive “professionalism score card.” There is no chance at rebuttal, and it is impossible to find out any specifics in order to change whatever the offending behavior was.

I say elusive because its existence was only a rumor until they suddenly showed up in our mailboxes filled with negative marks and comments. For example, 60 students (of 239) didn’t fill in the SSN box on the BACK of their Scantrons during a particular test. We test in two separate rooms, and the room with the 60 who didn’t fill it out correctly weren’t told to do so (the other room was). Some office assistant somewhere got mad because she had to bubble in the back of the Scantrons and so these students got a negative mark on their scorecards, and the only explanation was “test misconduct.” You can imagine how happy that made those students. To the administration’s credit, they did eventually, after much uproar, agree to change the comment. They left the negative marks however. The mentality is very much “faculty is always right, students are always wrong.”

There are only a handful of faculty who have the Big Brother mentality, but they have a huge impact. The vast majority of the administration building is filled with wonderful, helpful people. Sadly, it’s Big Brother who is hurting us though. Big Brother loves to jump to conclusions, and always assumes the very worst about any student. Before she even speaks to a student about an alleged infraction, she files a negative mark on their scorecard. Once she’s put a negative mark down, it is set in stone, since to remove the mark might be perceived as a mistake.

Recently, my class had some issues with campus security (or the lack thereof). Whenever a topic comes up on Blackboard that the Big Brother doesn’t like, some who have more vocal posts on the topic are written up as having a “major professionalism lapse.” The reasons are vague, and there is no requirement to explain to a student why a bad mark is given.

2. The neighborhood. Honestly, I don’t see #2 as a major issue. The school does need some more security, and we’re all hoping they aren’t just waiting for something horrible to happen before they do so, but so far this year, the worst that’s happened is a few cars have been broken into.

The students addressed the issue of security, but hit a huge nerve with somebody in the administration. We were told that we could only discuss “academic” issues on Blackboard, and to flex their muscles, quite a few “major lapses” were handed out on the ever-popular professionalism scorecards.

KCUMB is such a great school, but to have a tiny minority of uncaring, mean-spirited faculty members in positions of such influence over students scares me, and it makes me wonder what the future hold for this great school.

Honestly, if I’d known how brutally Machiavellian it would be here, I never would have come. There are a very select few with absolutely no compassion, understanding, or tolerance for anything or anyone who doesn’t agree with them. I am very happy here otherwise, and because I love the school so much (and the students), I probably won’t transfer. My advice would be to come interview here, but keep this school as a backup in case you don’t get into your first choice. You’ll get a great education and meet great people here, but you will also have to put with the Gestapo. :scared:

Wow, that was a lot longer than I meant it to be – sorry. I didn’t mean to vent so much; I guess I was more upset by the way we’ve been treated than I realized.

KCUMB is most definitely a wonderful school. I wouldn't trade the experience here or the people I have met for anything. The whole professionalism thing does definitely need some "tweeking" and it really sucks that it is taking quite a bit of effort from the students to keep from getting screwed because the faculty has yet to figure out exactly what they want to get angry about and how to categorize it. All in all, the curriculum and the faculty is wonderful, and the students are some of the best people I have ever met in my life. You won't regret it.
 

medicine1

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DocJP said:
I'm hoping to get some assistance...trying to gather information to make the best decision....please give your input (especially from current students and alumnu) on what I have on the chart below...am I correct? wrong? Also, any advice?

My Goals:
1.GOOD medical education
a.Strong science foundation: systems is the best
b.Learn clinical skills during 1st and 2nd year?
2.Rotations that will enable me to get residency in CA (of course it also depends on my grades and boards)
a.Rotations at teaching hospitals

Touro
135 students
Pro:
- located in CA
- rotations in CA = create relationship with CA hospital
- pretty good curriculum
- on-campus housing
Cons?
- rumor of not so good professors?
- fairly new school
Questions:
- is there a coordinator that helps you set-up your rotations
- how is the faculty
- do you gain clinical skills during 1st and 2nd yr? preceptorship? actor patients?
- Is the curriculm system approach?
-------------------------------------------------------------------


What about Touro University-Nevada?
Touro University is a great University.
On the contrary, I have heard only wonderful things about the professors.
TUCOM is new, but has great hospital affiliations.
Graduates of TUCOM have matched into very competitive residency programs.
Great location.
Two Campuses (Mare Island, CA and Henderson, NV).
Most of the questions you asked, can be answered on TUCOM's website.
http://www.tucom.edu/
http://www.tumi.edu/cs.html
http://www.tucom.edu/admissions.htm
http://misl.info/cv/c.asp?c=50