Providing no evidence, Trump tweets message attacking CDC, doctors as 'lying'

johnfree7

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Trump tweeted: "Everyone is lying. The CDC, Media, Democrats, our Doctors, not all but most ,that we are told to trust. I think it's all about the election and keeping the economy from coming back, which is about the election. I'm sick of it."
 

Lawpy

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Health experts gave unnecessary conflicting advice on masks and then blamed it on supply issues. The fact that US has a shortage of PPE and had to rely on imports is embarrassing since PPE must be entirely produced and regulated domestically. Also researchers keep publishing garbage covid research and unnecessarily politicized HCQ investigations to the point of publishing fraudulent and manipulated research only to end up rightly retracted. Then comes the massive contradiction in official public health advice that urged people to go out and participate in mass protests against police brutality while also bizarrely slamming anti lockdown protests for endangering public health.

Trump isn't perfect and his covid response has major problems, including not taking covid 19 seriously and absurdly calling it a hoax, failing to promote a unified federal response to help states control the virus, damaging CDC response efforts, politicizing research on Twitter based on shady French HCQ study, and unnecessarily politicizing mask wearing. But Trump has a point to criticize health experts for contributing to the mess with conflicting and contradictory advice combined with continued crappy and often fraudulent covid research.
 
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EmilKraepelin55

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Health experts gave unnecessary conflicting advice on masks and then blamed it on supply issues. The fact that US has a shortage of PPE and had to rely on imports is embarrassing since PPE must be entirely produced and regulated domestically. Also researchers keep publishing garbage covid research and unnecessarily politicized HCQ investigations to the point of publishing fraudulent and manipulated research only to end up rightly retracted. Then comes the massive contradiction in official public health advice that urged people to go out and participate in mass protests against police brutality while also bizarrely slamming anti lockdown protests for endangering public health.

Trump isn't perfect and his covid response has major problems, including not taking covid 19 seriously and absurdly calling it a hoax, failing to promote a unified federal response to help states control the virus, damaging CDC response efforts, politicizing research on Twitter based on shady French HCQ study, and unnecessarily politicizing mask wearing. But Trump has a point to criticize health experts for contributing to the mess with conflicting and contradictory advice combined with continued crappy and often fraudulent covid research.
It seems disingenuous to place the bulk of the onus on the scientific community when people in power like Trump have done their best to sow mistrust in our experts for years, causing the public who is already deficient in an understanding of the scientific method to see science from a lens of absolutism. While there are certainly conflicts of interest we have to grapple with in this crisis, it seems to me that the scientific skepticism which drives the development of our ever-shifting understanding of medicine has been laid bare.

The development of scientific knowledge isn’t really as clear cut as most lay people make it out to be, especially when there is both political and ethical pressure on medical scientists to better understand such a rapidly evolving existential threat like COVID-19. There just hasn’t been an honest dialogue between those in power and the public on the limitations inherent within the current status quo, leading people to make thousands of appeals to false authority.

I agree that our health experts could have acted in concert much better in their recommendations, but we all know that such discord is due to one thing: we don’t really know what to do. So in that light, we shouldn’t act like there is any specific thing we ought to do until we have evidence to suggest the best course of action.
 
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Lawpy

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It seems disingenuous to place the bulk of the onus on the scientific community when people in power like Trump have done their best to sow mistrust in our experts for years, causing the public who is already deficient in an understanding of the scientific method to see science from a lens of absolutism. While there are certainly conflicts of interest we have to grapple with in this crisis, it seems to me that the scientific skepticism which drives the development of our ever-shifting understanding of medicine has been laid bare.

The development of scientific knowledge isn’t really as clear cut as most lay people make it out to be, especially when there is both political and ethical pressure on medical scientists to better understand such a rapidly evolving existential threat like COVID-19. There just hasn’t been an honest dialogue between those in power and the public on the limitations inherent within the current status quo, leading people to make thousands of appeals to false authority.

I agree that our health experts could have acted in concert much better in their recommendations, but we all know that such discord is due to one thing: we don’t really know what to do. So in that light, we shouldn’t act like there is any specific thing we ought to do until we have evidence to suggest the best course of action.
Not knowing what the virus does or scientific research being complicated doesn't excuse or justify making really bad public health decisions and ignoring the scientific method in favor of putting some crap out. WSJ today reported even more retractions, effectively challenging the scientific integrity that political leaders are questioning


Also experts making bold false statements like telling people not to wear masks in Feb and Mar and claiming homemade masks don't help without any evidence is absurd. That can't be blamed on the virus being unknown since wearing masks for any infection is something that's done instinctually.

Yes political officials can be blamed but their job is to avoid societal and economic collapse so they have the incentive to aggressively push for any treatment they can find. It's thanks to Raoult's aggressive self promotion of HCQ that the treatment became widespread and overly politicized.

Scientific peer review has rapidly been shortened to weeks or days which risks crappy and fraudulent research getting published. Disturbingly, retractions are becoming more often in the past couple of months so scientific integrity is drawn into question.

Also leading health experts still enjoy high approval ratings. The problem lies with experts making bad suggestions as absolute warnings and promoting crappy, fraudulent and politicized research.
 
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Health experts gave unnecessary conflicting advice on masks and then blamed it on supply issues. The fact that US has a shortage of PPE and had to rely on imports is embarrassing since PPE must be entirely produced and regulated domestically. Also researchers keep publishing garbage covid research and unnecessarily politicized HCQ investigations to the point of publishing fraudulent and manipulated research only to end up rightly retracted. Then comes the massive contradiction in official public health advice that urged people to go out and participate in mass protests against police brutality while also bizarrely slamming anti lockdown protests for endangering public health.

Trump isn't perfect and his covid response has major problems, including not taking covid 19 seriously and absurdly calling it a hoax, failing to promote a unified federal response to help states control the virus, damaging CDC response efforts, politicizing research on Twitter based on shady French HCQ study, and unnecessarily politicizing mask wearing. But Trump has a point to criticize health experts for contributing to the mess with conflicting and contradictory advice combined with continued crappy and often fraudulent covid research.
I agree. 100%.

However, trying to convince the population that those equipped to research and execute proper COVID-19 protocols are lying solely because they're trying to ruin his election chances is a miserable excuse and insinuates his motive for his opinion. It's not about calling out health professionals for the woefully abysmal handling of the scientific method and calling on them to do better and acknowledge their shortcomings as he has a right to.

The president is suggesting to his followers to disregard the few people in the country that have the skill set to actually adequately research and inform the population. Regardless of whether or not they are the ones calling for nonsensical policy or actions. I wonder who then does the president think we should rely upon? Perhaps those who don't fall under "most doctors"? Uplifting data for election prospects ala Erikson & Massihi?

As if trust between physicians/scientists and patients haven't been eroded enough. People already had a tenuous relationship with facts and science prior to this pandemic.

It is incredibly reckless and dangerous.
 
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AMEHigh

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Health experts gave unnecessary conflicting advice on masks and then blamed it on supply issues. The fact that US has a shortage of PPE and had to rely on imports is embarrassing since PPE must be entirely produced and regulated domestically. Also researchers keep publishing garbage covid research and unnecessarily politicized HCQ investigations to the point of publishing fraudulent and manipulated research only to end up rightly retracted. Then comes the massive contradiction in official public health advice that urged people to go out and participate in mass protests against police brutality while also bizarrely slamming anti lockdown protests for endangering public health.

Trump isn't perfect and his covid response has major problems, including not taking covid 19 seriously and absurdly calling it a hoax, failing to promote a unified federal response to help states control the virus, damaging CDC response efforts, politicizing research on Twitter based on shady French HCQ study, and unnecessarily politicizing mask wearing. But Trump has a point to criticize health experts for contributing to the mess with conflicting and contradictory advice combined with continued crappy and often fraudulent covid research.
You really think the missteps about a novel virus that the public health community in the US made are because they/we don’t want trump re-elected?

It’s fine to constructively criticize with evidence, but to further divide people by saying mistakes were entirely political is horribly dangerous.

There’s enough conspiracy theories out there and they love to spread false information.
 

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You really think the missteps about a novel virus that the public health community in the US made are because they/we don’t want trump re-elected?

It’s fine to constructively criticize with evidence, but to further divide people by saying mistakes were entirely political is horribly dangerous.

There’s enough conspiracy theories out there and they love to spread false information.
Doing fraudulent research, such as utilizing data obtained by a shady company that refuses to hand over it, is terrible and can't be attributed to ignorance of covid 19. Seeing that HCQ paper was enough to stop a WHO clinical trial for a while suggests malignant and political intentions in the worst case scenario. Yes Trump is to be blamed for politicizing research but why are some researchers falling into the trap by forging evidence?

Masks weren't even supposed to be controversial in the health community in Feb and Mar. A lot of health experts claimed masks don't help without any evidence and discouraged homemade masks. It's instinctual for people to wear masks when the pandemic hit. The consensus later switched to pro masks but mask critics could be using initial opposition to justify not wearing masks.

Seeing how research quality is rapidly deteriorating because of increased preprint dependence and throwing some crap to see it works, i think the only evidence worth seeing are RCTs and well designed observational studies. It's thanks to those studies that true accomplishments can be achieved in an objective and apolitical manner, and politicians slamming them should be criticized.
 

AMEHigh

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Doing fraudulent research, such as utilizing data obtained by a shady company that refuses to hand over it, is terrible and can't be attributed to ignorance of covid 19. Seeing that HCQ paper was enough to stop a WHO clinical trial for a while suggests malignant and political intentions in the worst case scenario. Yes Trump is to be blamed for politicizing research but why are some researchers falling into the trap by forging evidence?

Masks weren't even supposed to be controversial in the health community in Feb and Mar. A lot of health experts claimed masks don't help without any evidence and discouraged homemade masks. It's instinctual for people to wear masks when the pandemic hit. The consensus later switched to pro masks but mask critics could be using initial opposition to justify not wearing masks.

Seeing how research quality is rapidly deteriorating because of increased preprint dependence and throwing some crap to see it works, i think the only evidence worth seeing are RCTs and well designed observational studies. It's thanks to those studies that true accomplishments can be achieved in an objective and apolitical manner, and politicians slamming them should be criticized.
Ok.
That didn't really answer the question.
Yes there were missteps.
No I don't think the cdc missteps and research missteps have been done in order to further ruin the economy and prevent trump from getting elected again.
It seems as though the jump to research is due to people wanting to get on top of being the first to publish, not because they want to ruin the economy and hate trump.
So we'll have to agree to disagree on the reasons that there have been missteps until there is proof of wide spread nefarious methods by doctors, the media, the cdc and democrats specifically to hurt the economy and trump.
 
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Lawpy

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Ok.
That didn't really answer the question.
Yes there were missteps.
No I don't think the cdc missteps and research missteps have been done in order to further ruin the economy and prevent trump from getting elected again.
It seems as though the jump to research is due to people wanting to get on top of being the first to publish, not because they want to ruin the economy and hate trump.
So we'll have to agree to disagree on the reasons that there have been missteps until there is proof of wide spread nefarious methods by doctors, the media, the cdc and democrats specifically to hurt the economy and trump.
That's why i'm going only by RCTs and well designed observational studies while throwing everything else out the window

As an example, the clinical trials clearly showed HCQ was ineffective and i fully took into account of that and stated Trump was wrong to promote untested drugs on Twitter.
 

Matthew9Thirtyfive

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Trump’s not my guy but there have been a lot of guidelines pushed by doctors that were more about supply/demand or equipment than actual science
Tu quoque arguments aren’t logically sound arguments. That there have been missteps by the scientific community is not an argument that Trump is not sabotaging and hamstringing doctors, public health officials, and scientists by sewing distrust and doubt in the public by his actions or that he has any justification.
 
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sb247

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Tu quoque arguments aren’t logically sound arguments. That there have been missteps by the scientific community is not an argument that Trump is not sabotaging and hamstringing doctors, public health officials, and scientists by sewing distrust and doubt in the public by his actions or that he has any justification.
I don’t at all think he isn’t sowing mistrust in docs/govt. He is.

I disagree with his claim that it’s all about unseating him

I do think, and stand by my statement, that there have been a lot of statements made that were about supply and demand of equipment that were not honestly disclosed as such. These policy/suggestions were draped in white coats hoping people would obey because doctors said so when it wasn’t really as solid evidence as was pitched or wasn’t really based on evidence at all. I feel like that is starting to calm down though
 
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Matthew9Thirtyfive

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I don’t at all think he isn’t sowing mistrust in docs/govt. He is.

I disagree with his claim that it’s all about unseating him

I do think, and stand by my statement, that there have been a lot of statements made that were about supply and demand of equipment that were not honestly disclosed as such. These policy/suggestions were draped in white coats hoping people would obey because doctors said so when it wasn’t really as solid evidence as was pitched or wasn’t really based on evidence at all. I feel like that is starting to calm down though
I agree with you. I wasn’t arguing that any of that wasn’t true. I’m just pointing out that bringing that up isn’t a sound argument against the first part of your post. It was more just a general statement.
 
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sb247

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I agree with you. I wasn’t arguing that any of that wasn’t true. I’m just pointing out that bringing that up isn’t a sound argument against the first part of your post. It was more just a general statement.
I think now that we’ve been more complete in our statements we’re close to the same thoughts
 
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Trump’s not my guy but there have been a lot of guidelines pushed by doctors that were more about supply/demand or equipment than actual science
Trump is not my guy but I always find a way to defend him. Lol

Be transparent, man...

It's ok to support Trump.
 

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NotAProgDirector

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Did anyone actually go read the paper. It's amazing. Math proves homeopathy.

Short Version:

(normal person) x (something that makes you sick) = (sick person)
(normal person) x (some substance) = (symptoms equal to sick person above).

Therefore:
(normal person) x (something that makes you sick) = (normal person) x (some substance)

Divide by normal person:
something that makes you sick = some substance.

Signify some substance by C, thing that makes you sick by A

Create some Random thing B that I don't understand.

Now A = BCB', because anything times it's inverse get's to back to where you started.

QED, Homeopathy works.

Extra credit for anyone who sees the flaw in their logic
 
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Then comes the massive contradiction in official public health advice that urged people to go out and participate in mass protests against police brutality while also bizarrely slamming anti lockdown protests for endangering public health.
Bingo.
And I say that even recognizing just how stoopid the anti-lockdown protests are.
 
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