Psychiatrist/Neurologist being accepted to a Ph.D Program

[Vivara]

Hi Guys,

I'm just looking far into the future here, so don't worry if I sound a little mad.

After I complete my medical degree, I intend to do a combined residency in Neurology and Psychiatry.

As a Neurologist and Psychiatrist, what are my chances of being accepted into a Ph.D program in Clinical Psychology in a good university? i.e. Cornell, Columbia? This is without any Bachelor of Arts or Masters in psychology.

I am well aware of the huge differences between the two approaches, so I really don't need a lecture on psychiatry vs. psychology! Also, I realise that doing the Ph.D won't open up any further doors for me professionally, but in terms of research, do you think it could be big?

Any opinions are very, very welcome.

Thanks,
Ed.

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[DrGero]

Hi Guys,

I'm just looking far into the future here, so don't worry if I sound a little mad.

After I complete my medical degree, I intend to do a combined residency in Neurology and Psychiatry.

As a Neurologist and Psychiatrist, what are my chances of being accepted into a Ph.D program in Clinical Psychology in a good university? i.e. Cornell, Columbia? This is without any Bachelor of Arts or Masters in psychology.

I am well aware of the huge differences between the two approaches, so I really don't need a lecture on psychiatry vs. psychology! Also, I realise that doing the Ph.D won't open up any further doors for me professionally, but in terms of research, do you think it could be big?

Any opinions are very, very welcome.

Thanks,
Ed.

You're a masochist.

 

[cara susanna]

My question is: why would you want to?

 

[loveoforganic]

I don't think there's a lot of point discussing it now. If, as a 4th year resident, you still feel like a clinical psychology phd would probably best fit your career goals, you could seek advice then. Even if you were 100% convinced to do both degrees now, there's not a thing you could do with that until 4th year residency regardless.

 

[stigmata]

And palnning to get dually boarded in psychiatry and neurology is a very risky one.

 

[Vivara]

And palnning to get dually boarded in psychiatry and neurology is a very risky one.

What? Why? I've never heard this from anyone else.

Thanks for the opinions. I realise that by then I probably won't want to do it, and that there really is no point thinking about it.

My question is though, it is something that would even be considered by the directors of the Ph.D program?

Ed.

 

[Ollie123]

Well, I'm a bit confused by some things...for one, Cornell doesn't have a program, last I knew, so don't count on getting in there. Given the institutions you mentioned I'm wondering if you are placing the prestige of the institution ahead of the program...these are only loosely correlated, and some of the best programs are at institutions you wouldn't necessarily expect (Wisconsin-Madison, Minnesota, etc.). These programs are certainly just as strong, if not stronger, than many of the programs at more traditionally "prestigious" universities.

For admissions, would it likely help you out? Maybe in some places - might hurt you at others, since you'd need to explain why, there might be concerns about your willingness to undergo re-training on many issues, potential conflicts between the models, etc. I wouldn't say an MD is a guarantee by any means - especially not at the stronger schools. That said, this is purely guesswork since I've never heard of anyone doing this.

That said - I'm also unclear on why anyone would do this. Psychology training is certainly different from medical training, but I suspect most of what you would want to learn could be gained from fellowships and/or other training that wouldn't involve another 5-6 years of full-time school and those heinous loans continuing to grow.

What was the motivation for pursuing the PhD, if I may ask?

 

[Manicsleep]

And palnning to get dually boarded in psychiatry and neurology is a very risky one.

Not its not, there are dual board programs. Most of the people who do it are those who want to do research.

The PhD would be probably be the wrong way to go if you started from scratch. You should have done it in the context of your MD as it would have trained you to use your MD in research. You would be better served doing a neuropsychiatry fellowship which is offered at a few programs. Another option is a research fellowship.

 

[Vivara]

Well, I'm a bit confused by some things...for one, Cornell doesn't have a program, last I knew, so don't count on getting in there. Given the institutions you mentioned I'm wondering if you are placing the prestige of the institution ahead of the program...

I probably am. As I said, it's a long way off and at this stage I'm just enquiring. You see I plan to do my residency at either Columbia, Cornell or NYU (as I like New York, and they all have excellent Med Schools). I thought that I would have a better chance of securing a place in a Ph.D program in whatever university I'm in.

For admissions, would it likely help you out? Maybe in some places - might hurt you at others, since you'd need to explain why, there might be concerns about your willingness to undergo re-training on many issues, potential conflicts between the models, etc. I wouldn't say an MD is a guarantee by any means - especially not at the stronger schools. That said, this is purely guesswork since I've never heard of anyone doing this.

That said - I'm also unclear on why anyone would do this. Psychology training is certainly different from medical training, but I suspect most of what you would want to learn could be gained from fellowships and/or other training that wouldn't involve another 5-6 years of full-time school and those heinous loans continuing to grow.

What was the motivation for pursuing the PhD, if I may ask?

My motivation initially, I suppose, is the antipsychiatry/psychology vs. psychiatry/whatever you want to call it movement. I have strong views regarding this (if you want to know why, read 'Madness Explained' by Richard P. Bentall). In a sense, I want to see it from both sides of the coin.

I absolutely want to do medicine, and have a huge interest in neurology. But then I have a huge passion for psychology too, and I would love to combine them both and be a foremost expert in the area of mental health, if you can catch my drift. I normally refrain from saying things like this because it sounds so mad. In a sense, I want any research I do to not be seen as something done by a psychiatrist or something done by a psychologist, but something done by a psychiatrist who is also a clinical psychologist and vice-versa.

Ed.

 

[erg923]

I would caution that you are getting much, much too caught up in titles and degrees here. Bottom line is that it's your methodology and conclusions (and your ability to write grants and collaborate) that will get your work respected, not your title. This is because 1.) many people reading them wont know or bother to find out exactly what your training background is 2). Wouldnt care anyway.

You also might wanna think about all these goals in the context of actual real life. How much are you willing to sacrifice in terms of finances, earning potential, lifestyle, personal free time, family time, etc. to do all these things? I think the older one gets the more important these things become. Especially family and/or your spouse and children. I'm just a lowly psychologist but I am very happy I work 45 hours per week and can spend my free time doing things that are important/fun for both myself AND my growing family.

 

[kea2115]

It sounds as though all your reasons for wanting to pursue a PhD in clinical psych can be done through various avenues using your MD. Just look to match into a residency that highlights certain components that are commensurate with clinical psych (psychotherapy strong programs, such as Cornell). And, as one of the posters mentioned above, look to secure fellowships that will give you training in research. Also, while I am not super well-versed in MD positions, it is to my understanding that a lot of psych PhDs will work in departments of psychiatry in teaching hospitals/psychiatry departments of medical schools, so that might be a position that you would like to work towards ultimately.

I'd say going on to get a PhD in clinical psych, on top of an MD, would most likely be unwise for most of the reasons others gave.

 

[futureapppsy2]

My question is: why would you want to?

My thoughts exactly!

 

[nitemagi]

I have to agree with WHY?

And even besides that, I'd worry about it TEN years from now (4 years medical school, 6 years to dual board in psych/neuro). After all that, then decide if you really want to go on to a PhD. Also it's probably better to do an MD/PhD program, then just get singly boarded in whichever interests you most. May at least trim a few years.

 

[Neuropsych2be]

Hi Guys,

I'm just looking far into the future here, so don't worry if I sound a little mad.

After I complete my medical degree, I intend to do a combined residency in Neurology and Psychiatry.

As a Neurologist and Psychiatrist, what are my chances of being accepted into a Ph.D program in Clinical Psychology in a good university? i.e. Cornell, Columbia? This is without any Bachelor of Arts or Masters in psychology.

I am well aware of the huge differences between the two approaches, so I really don't need a lecture on psychiatry vs. psychology! Also, I realise that doing the Ph.D won't open up any further doors for me professionally, but in terms of research, do you think it could be big?

Any opinions are very, very welcome.

Thanks,
Ed.

My non-traditional program at Fielding has a neurologist who has gone back to get a Ph.D. in clinical psychology. Very nice and very classy lady. She used to be on faculty at a med school as I recall. She is now on internship at a VA. She struggled doing the match since training directors looked at her as if she was a creature from Mars and no one seemed to understand her choice! I asked her once why she decided to do a Ph.D. on top of an M.D. The answer she gave me was that a Ph.D. in clinical psychology would give her better and more varied training than doing a psychiatry residency. I know of two other physicians who are in my program currently. I can't say I understand these choices but it is not my place to impose a value judgment on people who think so highly of clinical psychology. I might be able to get a current email address for her. PM me if you are interested.

 

[O Gurl]

My non-traditional program at Fielding...

The same Fielding that has a 48% match rate? Non-traditional or otherwise, I am not sure I would recommend this program.

To the OP:
I agree with others that your needs might be met through careful choice of residency and fellowship. The MD/PhD joint route is one thing, but to complete the training sequentially just sounds like unnecessary hassle, delay of life, extended poverty... and a whole bunch of other bad things,

 

[stigmata]

Not its not, there are dual board programs. Most of the people who do it are those who want to do research.

The PhD would be probably be the wrong way to go if you started from scratch. You should have done it in the context of your MD as it would have trained you to use your MD in research. You would be better served doing a neuropsychiatry fellowship which is offered at a few programs. Another option is a research fellowship.

Did I say it was not possible? No, I said that to COUNT ON this is risky. Also, the PhD part of a MD/PhD program pales in comparison to a full PhD program in a new area. I am a bit confused as to why so many are questioning why someone would want to obtain a PhD after an MD and the PhD is the higher academic degree.

 

[Manicsleep]

Did I say it was not possible? No, I said that to COUNT ON this is risky.

No you didn't, you said planning on dual boarding is very risky. Then again, so is getting into med school, going to Columbia for residency etc etc etc. The dual boarding is the least of OP's worries. Anyways, if thats what you meant, I was just clarifying for the OP who appears to believe wholeheartedly that they can get into med school and then go to a top notch New York Psychiatry residency...all of which is possible. Dual boarding at that level is probably easier, they want people of that caliber and it may even make it easier to match to the top residency spots under some circumstances.

Also, the PhD part of a MD/PhD program pales in comparison to a full PhD program in a new area. I am a bit confused...

Its not in a new area. In an overlapping area, it is superior to do the PhD in the context of the MD.

 

[PsychAndMusic]

The same Fielding that has a 48% match rate? Non-traditional or otherwise, I am not sure I would recommend this program.

and the same fielding whos apa accreditation is on probation? eekk i agree, i wouldn't recommend this program either...

 

[jena2nsu]

If this is what you're heart is set on, I'd say go for it! Why not? When you're 80 years old and death comes knocking, are you going to wish you did it?

 

[Neuropsych2be]

and the same fielding whos apa accreditation is on probation? eekk i agree, i wouldn't recommend this program either...

My comments are in no way a recommendation for or even about my program but instead are about people who choose pursue another doctorate after med school.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

There's another option that I don't think anyone has suggested...

Rather than going back to school for another degree, why not try to get a job as a post-doc in someone's psychology research group?

Here are my reasons for suggesting this:

1. On a first-impression basis it's a more fitting path for someone with an MD.
2. Some schools will allow post-docs to audit/enroll in classes, so you could get some of the didactic education that you want.
3. You wouldn't have to take part in some of the PhD stuff that you don't want to do. (I'm sure not all of the classes appeal to you.)
4. You'd still get the research experience that it sounds like you're looking for.
5. You wouldn't be tied to a 4+ year experience.
6. Schools wouldn't have to use up one of their training slots that they'd really like to give out to someone who's taking a more traditional path.

Last point... sort of a part-A, part-B thing:

7A - If you're getting another degree, in the best-case scenario it will be a funded position but you'll be barely making any money. You'll just be delaying your real income. Worst case: unfunded, you'll be racking up more debt.
7B - If you're doing research as a post-doc you'd be eligible for NIH loan repayment programs to pay off your med school debt (google "nih loan repayment").

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In the end, however, I don't recommend this path if you want to practice medicine like you say you do.

If you're really serious about practicing medicine, don't forget that your skills are likely to get rusty whether you do a post-doc or go to graduate school. All those things you learn in residency will start slipping away if you're busy doing research full time.

I think you're trying to do too much. Neurology AND psychiatry AND clinical psychology, with equal emphasis on clinical theory AND research? Too much stuff!

You say you don't want your research to be viewed as coming from one distinct theoretical paradigm. But psychology and psychiatry are pretty similar. Maybe you should do a Doctor of Social Work program after your PhD, that way no one will accuse you of ignoring the social work approach. Something to consider? And if you get a PhD in psychology from a school that emphasizes cognitive-behavioral type stuff, maybe you should add on a PsyD from a school that teaches Jungian psychology.

Ed Smith, MD, PhD, DSW, PsyD... nice ring to it, right? Now no one would dare question your credentials... (Joking point is, people are always going to think your work is influenced by your training!)

You say you want the two degrees to be considered an expert, but generalization is not how experts are usually made. Experts are usually highly specialized, not highly generalized.

Also, it usually takes a looooonnnnggg time before anyone will start thinking of you as an expert, and taking a guess about your age this plan sounds like you'll be in your mid-40's by the time you finish... you'll have spent so much time working on your credentials that you won't have the time you need to do the work that makes you an expert.

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Do what makes you happy, but this sounds like you're biting off more than you can chew. Good luck!

 

[stigmata]

Good post and idea! I want to make 1 disclaimer though; psychology and psychiatry are not all that much alike per se. Unbeknownst to most physicians doctoral level training in psychology focuses a lot of time learning topics such as how learning, memory, executive functioning works...etc..

 

[Wapote84]

You're a masochist.

I wish I could "like" this.

 

[hopefuldoc97239]

Good post and idea! I want to make 1 disclaimer though; psychology and psychiatry are not all that much alike per se. Unbeknownst to most physicians doctoral level training in psychology focuses a lot of time learning topics such as how learning, memory, executive functioning works...etc..

I was mostly saying that for the value of the joke... the OP was indicating he/she wanted not to appear as though coming from one particular school of thought so I was trying to jokingly provoke him/her by saying that they were very similar.

I definitely agree that clinical psychology is quite distinct from psychiatry. Although my status says "Pre-Medical" I would note to you that I'm a psychology professor currently, until I start med school in the fall

However, I wouldn't have chosen memory and executive function as my examples of things that psychiatrists don't learn about. Understanding and knowing how to test cognitive function is a cornerstone to a good psychiatric education, in my humble opinion. I might have pointed out that clinical/counseling psychology training gives a person tools that are conducive to working with populations who are free from mental illness or are sub-clinical... family therapy, intelligence testing, I/O psychology, etc.... but I admit that I don't know a whole lot about it.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I was mostly saying that for the value of the joke... the OP was indicating he/she wanted not to appear as though coming from one particular school of thought so I was trying to jokingly provoke him/her by saying that they were very similar.

I definitely agree that clinical psychology is quite distinct from psychiatry. Although my status says "Pre-Medical" I would note to you that I'm a psychology professor currently, until I start med school in the fall

However, I wouldn't have chosen memory and executive function as my examples of things that psychiatrists don't learn about. Understanding and knowing how to test cognitive function is a cornerstone to a good psychiatric education, in my humble opinion. I might have pointed out that clinical/counseling psychology training gives a person tools that are conducive to working with populations who are free from mental illness or are sub-clinical... family therapy, intelligence testing, I/O psychology, etc.... but I admit that I don't know a whole lot about it.

Clinical psychology actually provides a fairly extensive amount of training in the theory and treatment of clinically-significant psychopathology, including non-pharmacological research and treatment of psychotic disorders. Counseling psychology, based on what I've heard, used to focus more heavily on non-pathological populations, but in recent years many counseling programs have become nearly indistinguishable from clinical programs in their focus (although the "feel" is often said to be different).

From what I know, psychiatric/medical training does not provide the same level of depth or exposure to cognitive testing that a degree in clinical psychology would. Although the term "cognitive testing" is very vague. If you mean neurological exams and neuroimaging, then yes, psychiatrists would have much more exposure to those methods than the majority of clinical psychologists (although I'd make the argument that neurologists would possibly have most other medical specialties trumped there). If you instead mean memory, reasoning, language, psychomotor and sensory/perceptual functioning, etc., then you'd be better off seeking a neuropsychologist. And if you mean psychological/emotional/personality assessment, then a clinical psychologist would be your best bet.