Psychiatrist vs. psychologist salary in each state

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PsyDr

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Psychiatrist vs. psychologist salary in each state

The national average salary for psychiatrists in 2021 was $249,760, compared to $99,460 for psychologists, per May 2021 data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics
www.beckersbehavioralhealth.com www.beckersbehavioralhealth.com


Far too low. Some of you are making less than truck drivers.
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PsyDr said:

Psychiatrist vs. psychologist salary in each state

The national average salary for psychiatrists in 2021 was $249,760, compared to $99,460 for psychologists, per May 2021 data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics
www.beckersbehavioralhealth.com www.beckersbehavioralhealth.com


Far too low. Some of you are making less than truck drivers.
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While I agree, I'm not sure that basing salary comparisons to Psychiatrists are reasonable given the reimbursement differences (earnings are typically far higher than 250k, if they want to). I can't imagine a reason to make less than 150k if you desire to do so and without working insane amounts
 
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Does anyone know if the mean salary includes master-level psychologists and part-time psychologists? The number seems low. Based on my very limited personal anecdotal knowledge, even a new grad makes quite a bit over what they are reporting here.
 
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BuckeyeLove said:
The 50k "given" salary always seems to be the magic number hahah. Always about what can be deemed "reasonable"
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Yes, there is a fairly large difference between my salary, and my overall compensation as both a provider and business owner. My "reasonable" salary is higher than 50k, but I don't have a ton of employees to manage where I can argue I'm doing X amount of admin work.
 
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Yeah- while my salary is slightly above the mean, overall earnings are much higher. These are also averages and, absent and measures of variance, need to be interpreted cautiously. I think there is some skewing towards the low end in states with some of the bigger cohort professional schools that pump out huge numbers of generalists. May this is overcome by a few insanely well compensated providers at the other end.
Either way, I think it's always good advice for students assume you'll only be making- at least initially- 60-70% of these averages for purposes of calculate the risks of financing you education paying that back. Take that number, subtract 1/3 for taxes, subtract the estimated monthly student loan payment, and see what's left for basic needs, entertainment, etc.
 
If anything, I'd guess the data is positively skewed vs. negatively skewed. Income data almost always is. That said, I don't know how anything < 80k is possible. I'm closer to 3x than 2x my states (admittedly very low) average and will likely be above that next year. I'm a friggin academic and my focus has definitely not been on maximizing my compensation.

NIH salary for a new post-doc is 56,484 and I feel like that should be an absolute floor for a fresh, unlicensed grad. How the average barely exceeds that in some places is baffling to me.
 
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Ollie123 said:
If anything, I'd guess the data is positively skewed vs. negatively skewed. Income data almost always is. That said, I don't know how anything < 80k is possible. I'm closer to 3x than 2x my states (admittedly very low) average and will likely be above that next year. I'm a friggin academic and my focus has definitely not been on maximizing my compensation.

NIH salary for a new post-doc is 56,484 and I feel like that should be an absolute floor for a fresh, unlicensed grad. How the average barely exceeds that in some places is baffling to me.
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Yeah, that's my thought as well. My first job out of postdoc was about a decade ago, and I was well above that even then.
 
PsyDr said:
Neuropsych has a median in the 200ks.
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What's the source on this?

For the record I'm not doubting you at all. I just have no clue where to find solid salary reports and I don't trust BLS reports as far as I can throw them. Especially because after locality adjustments GS-13 at your average VA tops out well above the 90-100K mark and I assume lots of psychologists live in metros where there would be a locality adjustments. Plus the amount of people on this form who document finding much better paying positions than VA psych gigs.
 
The Cinnabon said:
What's the source on this?

For the record I'm not doubting you at all. I just have no clue where to find solid salary reports and I don't trust BLS reports as far as I can throw them. Especially because after locality adjustments GS-13 at your average VA tops out well above the 90-100K mark and I assume lots of psychologists live in metros where there would be a locality adjustments. Plus the amount of people on this form who document finding much better paying positions than VA psych gigs.
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AACN salary survey.
 
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The Cinnabon said:
What's the source on this?

For the record I'm not doubting you at all. I just have no clue where to find solid salary reports and I don't trust BLS reports as far as I can throw them. Especially because after locality adjustments GS-13 at your average VA tops out well above the 90-100K mark and I assume lots of psychologists live in metros where there would be a locality adjustments. Plus the amount of people on this form who document finding much better paying positions than VA psych gigs.
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Don't apologize. You should always ask for evidence.

And I was wrong. The overall mean is ~$170k

Jerry J. Sweet, Kristen M. Klipfel, Nathaniel W. Nelson & Paul J. Moberg (2021) Professional practices, beliefs, and incomes of U.S. neuropsychologists: The AACN, NAN, SCN 2020 practice and “salary survey”, The Clinical Neuropsychologist, 35:1, 7-80, DOI: 10.1080/13854046.2020.1849803
 
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Justanothergrad said:
While I agree, I'm not sure that basing salary comparisons to Psychiatrists are reasonable given the reimbursement differences (earnings are typically far higher than 250k, if they want to). I can't imagine a reason to make less than 150k if you desire to do so and without working insane amounts
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Market forces. The AMA has artificially restricted the supply of physicians for decades, by capping residency slots. The US has ~106,000 psychologists but only ~45,000 psychiatrists.
 
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tr said:
Market forces. The AMA has artificially restricted the supply of physicians for decades, by capping residency slots. The US has ~106,000 psychologists but only ~45,000 psychiatrists.
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Meanwhile, over here in psychology, we have set the threshold so low that virtually anyone can have a 'psychologist' title for the right price.
 
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tr said:
Market forces. The AMA has artificially restricted the supply of physicians for decades, by capping residency slots. The US has ~106,000 psychologists but only ~45,000 psychiatrists.
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And yet these waitlists for therapy (at least for insurance-paying clients) are still unbelievably long
 
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R. Matey said:
Meanwhile, over here in psychology, we have set the threshold so low that virtually anyone can have a 'psychologist' title for the right price.
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While also, from what I know, deciding we didn't need to bother advocating for access to E&M codes when they were developed. @PsyDr I'm sure knows more about it than me.

Psychologists (outside of forensics and private practice) often also seem to not like to say we enjoy making money.

Edit: Also, interestingly, in just eyeballing the numbers, it seems that in some of the lowest-salary states for psychologists, psychiatrists are certainly not also affected, and instead have some of their higher salary numbers (e.g., WV). Whereas the opposite also seems like it's at least sometimes true--higher psychologist salaries coincide with lower psychiatrist salaries (e.g., HI, LA), although maybe not as cleanly.
 
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R. Matey said:
Worth mentioning that these are BLS figures, which we established in other threads do not necessarily accurately account for PP work (The CWS data is better for the purpose).
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This is helpful to know because the psychologist salaries seemed low to me. My residency salary is higher than 30% of these and if this were an accurate depiction of what post residency life is I'd be very concerned.
 
PsyDWannabe said:
And yet these waitlists for therapy (at least for insurance-paying clients) are still unbelievably long
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This would be substantially improved by an increase in competent masters level providers, though. Especially given how much faster that path to licensure is.
 
tr said:
Market forces. The AMA has artificially restricted the supply of physicians for decades, by capping residency slots. The US has ~106,000 psychologists but only ~45,000 psychiatrists.
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Yes, and the growth of midlevels (NP, PA, etc.) are partially a response to that. Fun discussions over at r/Noctor.
 
Dazen said:
This would be substantially improved by an increase in competent masters level providers, though. Especially given how much faster that path to licensure is.
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Operative word.
 
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Dazen said:
This would be substantially improved by an increase in competent masters level providers, though. Especially given how much faster that path to licensure is.
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I'm not in a particularly saturated area, and I can still get my patients referrals for therapy with doctoral providers in less than a month. Under 2 weeks if they're willing to see a midlevel. Even for insurance folks, including medicare. I'm willing to bet half of people's problems are simply networking when it comes to this area. I only encounter issues when someone wants something super specific in terms of treatment and provider. Some of our niche providers have waitlists, but general therapy is still pretty easy to come by.
 
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tr said:
Market forces. The AMA has artificially restricted the supply of physicians for decades, by capping residency slots. The US has ~106,000 psychologists but only ~45,000 psychiatrists.
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Do you have a citation for the numbers you quoted?
 
AcronymAllergy said:
While also, from what I know, deciding we didn't need to bother advocating for access to E&M codes when they were developed. @PsyDr I'm sure knows more about it than me.

Psychologists (outside of forensics and private practice) often also seem to not like to say we enjoy making money.

Edit: Also, interestingly, in just eyeballing the numbers, it seems that in some of the lowest-salary states for psychologists, psychiatrists are certainly not also affected, and instead have some of their higher salary numbers (e.g., WV). Whereas the opposite also seems like it's at least sometimes true--higher psychologist salaries coincide with lower psychiatrist salaries (e.g., HI, LA), although maybe not as cleanly.
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It is important to note that WV doesn’t require a doctorate for a licensed psychologist.
 
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WisNeuro said:
If anything, according to the mean age changes, and distribution of new grads, it is likely higher at the moment. Our field is not top heavy in the age brackets.
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The higher incomes are top heavy. We have a sick history of financially exploiting the youngsters in the profession.
 
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PsyDr said:
The higher incomes are top heavy. We have a sick history of financially exploiting the youngsters in the profession.
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Oh, I don't doubt that. We've also done a poor job of protecting our practice areas in hospital systems, which is probably somewhat correlated with not protecting reimbursements from payor sources.
 
WisNeuro said:
Oh, I don't doubt that. We've also done a poor job of protecting our practice areas in hospital systems, which is probably somewhat correlated with not protecting reimbursements from payor sources.
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That's a separate issue. We gave hospitals up when Rogers was APA president, and questioned if there were any mental illnesses at all. If you look way back, psychologists were able to admit people to hospitals for a long time. Then Rogers came around, we moved out of the hospitals for 10 years, and social work swooped in.

I'm referring to such predatory business models as the "50/50" split. A lot of old people are making real money off of young psychologists.
 
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PsyDr said:
That's a separate issue. We gave hospitals up when Rogers was APA president, and questioned if there were any mental illnesses at all. If you look way back, psychologists were able to admit people to hospitals for a long time. Then Rogers came around, we moved out of the hospitals for 10 years, and social work swooped in.

I'm referring to such predatory business models as the "50/50" split. A lot of old people are making real money off of young psychologists.
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I think they both contribute, as there aren't as many higher paying jobs in hospitals, so those young people feel that the 50/50 split is a decent deal. Two of our larger non-hospital systems throw out 50/50 as their standard, but they're also almost exclusively by former grads of the out of business diploma mill that used to be here.
 
Dazen said:
This would be substantially improved by an increase in competent masters level providers, though. Especially given how much faster that path to licensure is.
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Faster yes, but competent is much harder. The competent therapists from master's level programs that exist are exceptional people who would've likely done well in a doctoral program since getting good training at pre-license, post-graduate level requires people to be self-motivated enough to seek out quality training experiences on their own. It's very, very easy to just phone it in and still get paid.
 
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R. Matey said:
Faster yes, but competent is much harder. The competent therapists from master's level programs that exist are exceptional people who would've likely done well in a doctoral program since getting good training at pre-license, post-graduate level requires people to be self-motivated enough to seek out quality training experiences on their own. It's very, very easy to just phone it in and still get paid.
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Speaking of which, can someone explain to me what training this is? https://neurojess.com/hello
 
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Love the "disclaimers"

"
  • Assessments are provided for validation and peace of mind. Assessments are not considered psychological testing, as I am not a licensed psychologist. If you meet DSM-5-TR criteria for ASD and/or ADHD after the assessment provided, I will provide you a diagnosis. If you would like a formal diagnosis that is recognized by the state of Wisconsin (for any purpose other than your own edification), please contact a licensed psychologist who specializes in ASD or ADHD testing in your area.
  • Assessments are conducted using DSM-5-TR criteria, including questionnaires and clinician-developed checklists derived from the DSM-5-TR, and clinical experience based on ASD and ADHD presentations specifically in women.
  • I will sign any documents that you request, but cannot guarantee that your work, or state or federal unemployment or disability offices will accept a diagnosis from an LPC. I also cannot guarantee that your primary care physician or medical prescriber will accept your diagnosis/diagnoses for potential medication prescriptions.
 
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WisNeuro said:
Love the "disclaimers"

"
  • Assessments are provided for validation and peace of mind. Assessments are not considered psychological testing, as I am not a licensed psychologist. If you meet DSM-5-TR criteria for ASD and/or ADHD after the assessment provided, I will provide you a diagnosis. If you would like a formal diagnosis that is recognized by the state of Wisconsin (for any purpose other than your own edification), please contact a licensed psychologist who specializes in ASD or ADHD testing in your area.
  • Assessments are conducted using DSM-5-TR criteria, including questionnaires and clinician-developed checklists derived from the DSM-5-TR, and clinical experience based on ASD and ADHD presentations specifically in women.
  • I will sign any documents that you request, but cannot guarantee that your work, or state or federal unemployment or disability offices will accept a diagnosis from an LPC. I also cannot guarantee that your primary care physician or medical prescriber will accept your diagnosis/diagnoses for potential medication prescriptions.
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She's always complaining that psychiatrists are ignorant for wanting testing by psychologists and hers are just as valid. She says the psychiatrists are not neurodiverse affirming. How is she charging 700 for testing? What testing is she allowed to do?
 
Heist said:
She's always complaining that psychiatrists are ignorant for wanting testing by psychologists and hers are just as valid. She says the psychiatrists are not neurodiverse affirming. How is she charging 700 for testing? What testing is she allowed to do?
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Clinical interviews and questionnaires are generally ok, if she's doing neuropsych, that may be illegal, depending on the state. Some states would consider it practicing psychology without a license, some states do not specifically outline those things. But, there's really nothing much that can be done about that bogus board certification. Plenty of fake and vanity boards out there.
 
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WisNeuro said:
Clinical interviews and questionnaires are generally ok, if she's doing neuropsych, that may be illegal, depending on the state. Some states would consider it practicing psychology without a license, some states do not specifically outline those things. But, there's really nothing much that can be done about that bogus board certification. Plenty of fake and vanity boards out there.
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WisNeuro said:
Clinical interviews and questionnaires are generally ok, if she's doing neuropsych, that may be illegal, depending on the state. Some states would consider it practicing psychology without a license, some states do not specifically outline those things. But, there's really nothing much that can be done about that bogus board certification. Plenty of fake and vanity boards out there.
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These things don't bother you?
 
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