Psychiatry rant, want to ask the psychologists

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whopper

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Borderline PD is something we psychiatrists often see in the psychiatry unit, and its quite unfortunate because managed care will not treat MDs to give psychotherapy to borderlines.

The current studies show that psychotherapy, more specifically dialectical behavioral therapy is perhaps the most effective treatment. Psychopharmacological treatments are only used for affective-borderlines, and even in those cases, DBT is still needed.

Unfortunately, given that this is the case, we often just discharge them.

So the question is, will managed care pay for psychologists to give psychotherapy to borderlines? If so why the heck aren't the psychiatrists referring to psychology?

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This question may best be answered by those who are already practicing, but I am under the impression that 3rd party payers are not more willing to pay for PhD/PsyDs to perform therapy on a primary axis-2 client. The problem is in managed care. So, as more research is coming out that shows just how much money and services axis-2 clients consume when left untreated, and how, when in therapy they tend to use much less in the way of medical services (both pharm and ER, inpatient days etc. ) they will likley become more pay for therapy for axis-2 primary. Of course, the only language that managed care understands is $. SO researchers, finalay realizing this, ahve begun to write papers that are translated for them into $ speak. Namely, if treated = - $, if untreated = + $. They should understand that. But it still takes time. I think the old adage of those who can't do teach, should be amended for the healthcare fields to: those who can't, go into insurance.



(sorry jlw)
 
In my experience, managed care will, indeed, cover psychotherapy for borderline PD.

The problem, though, is that treatment with this population is not brief. As a result, people max out their annual coverage. And then no, managed care won't cover psychotherapy for borderline PD. :rolleyes:
 
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LM02 said:
In my experience, managed care will, indeed, cover psychotherapy for borderline PD.

The problem, though, is that treatment with this population is not brief. As a result, people max out their annual coverage. And then no, managed care won't cover psychotherapy for borderline PD. :rolleyes:

If managed care will at least pay for it at least shortly, then that's better than nothing. As I said, several borderlines are given no referral. You psychologists might not be able to give them as much treatment as you want but you might be able to at least get the ball rolling in the right direction, where as in my field I can hardly even touch the ball.

The only problem I have with this explanation is that if its the case, why is it that all the psychiatry units I know will never refer to a psychologist? I like to think of myself as smart, but I can't be so smart that I figured out something that is this easy of an explanation.
 
In my experience as both mental health practitioner and as managed care Agent of Evil (c'mon psyclops- you know I have a sense of humor about that!), you most definitely CAN get treatment for borderline PD authorized, but there are a few tricks I'd recommend to facilitate the process.

fyi, MBHO= managed behavioral health organization

1. Most of the losses incurred by the MBHOs ( :laugh: hahahahahaha... but I digress...) come from inpatient admissions. Trust me, they will have a list of frequent flyers, and a good chunk of that list will have a significant Axis II disorder. These members are very expensive for them, and they will likely be looking for ways to decrease these costs. Pick a frequently admitted patient, have either UR, the inpatient therapist, or the psychiatrist contact the insurance and say "We both know this isn't a good situation, what can we do to work together to prevent readmission?" Make them work with you.

2. Many MBHOs will have a case manager designated to follow high-risk patients. This may be risk= high financial cost or risk= clinical risk. People we had flagged as high-risk were chronically non-compliant with outpatient follow-up, or had suicide attempts which resulted in ICU stays, had frequent readmissions, pregnant women... other categories, I'm sure. The case manager's job is to follow up with the member (read: nag) on a regular basis to encourage compliance with outpatient care, medications, and be a contact person if the member needs community resources, new referrals, etc., and can get the member into the habit of contacting the insurance BEFORE going to the ED. Psychiatrists could ask the UR staff to inquire if this is available through the BPD patient's insurance.

3. It would be really helpful if psychiatrists actually documented the diagnosis. If it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, it probably is one. At a minimum, "Personality DO NOS with cluster B traits" would be good. It irks me when I talk with a psychiatrist about a mutual patient and we both verbally agree the patient is BPD and the doc refuses to put it in writing "because of the stigma". Hard to get someone into a DBT group if the doc won't document the diagnosis!

4. DBT groups are wonderful. They really are. Too bad managed care is just finding out they exist. And the statistics so far have proven that they're very cost-effective in reducing inpatient costs. However, there will be a slight increase to the MBHO in outpatient costs, as they'd be paying for both group and individual therapies now. So a stingy company will balk at that.... plus, depending on how closely they manage things, they will want to know lots of questions about the type of group, as only "medically necessary" treatment is covered, not support groups. Ultimately, it's in their favor to authorize more outpatient- it takes a LOT of outpatient sessions to equal one inpatient day.

So to get it covered..... when I worked at a CMHC, we had DBT groups and I referred an individual client of mine. I called her MBHO (conveniently, the one I later worked for) and explained about the fact that it's a didactic group, expected to reduce inpatient costs, time-limited (20 weeks at our place), that it's targeted toward a specific diagnosis, and gave specific symptoms to justify the client's diagnosis. They agreed to continue covering me for individual, and authed 10 sessions of group. Group therapist had to call after 10 and confirm attendance and compliance and was immediately given the other 10. When I started working there, I was able to educate my boss more about it, gave him the group manual so he could see what it involved, and he started to change his thinking on it.

5. Capitated benefits suck- the "20 sessions per calendar year" thing. All of the benefits for the plans I worked with were "unlimited visits per year based on medical necessity", which can mean different things. At my company, it meant we were completely nit-picky and intrusive. At my friend's company, it means they're hands-off unless they see something that looks abusive (ie, 70+ sessions/year). But LM's right- if it's capitated, they are under no obligation to pay. Start looking into CMHC referrals, as they will likely be able to continue services through state funding.

6. Check if the patient has a comorbid Axis I affective DO and is on disability, which often means Medicare. Medicare benefits are fairly loosely managed and grant more access to treatment than many private MBHOs. Caveats are that a) it may be difficult to find Medicare providers b/c of poor reimbursement rates if they don't have Medicaid or another supplement and b) Medicare will only reimburse psychologists and clinical social workers, not professional counselors. I have a Medicare/private supplement patient who I've seen now for 11 months, and I think I just added up that it's been 45 sessions to date (God help me) and no one has blinked. (Although to be honest, to meet her is to understand that she meets medical necessity criteria....)

7. Because of stigma, it might be hard to find a practitioner who is willing to take on clients with BPD. That may account for some of the resistance to psychiatrists referring. Who will take this person? The MBHOs may have a list of therapists who will... again, the CMHCs are a good resource... or talk to your colleagues about who they use. I got the above-mentioned client from a psychiatrist who works PT at a CMHC where one of my office-mates used to work. This is one of his private patients, and my friend is not a Medicare provider, so she referred him to me. That has led to him having one of his partners refer a patient to me as well. It's all about the networking, I tell ya.

Good topic for discussion, whopper. :thumbup:

psyclops- revenge is a dish best served cold. ;) :D
 
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The teeth are chattering...

But, the funny thing about this all, is that Axis-2 was implemented to encourage an increase in PD diagnoses. It hasn't seemed to work. It rarely gets attention paid to it.
 
"Check if the patient has a comorbid Axis I affective DO and is on disability, which often means Medicare. Medicare benefits are fairly loosely managed and grant more access to treatment than many private MBHOs."

Ouch. Unfortunately I do not want to give Cluster B Axis II patients disability. Several of them ask me for it, but due to the nature of manipulation with these patients, its too hard to distinguish from those that want disability to get "free money".

But thanks for the information. Definitely informative & helpful!
 
whopper said:
"Check if the patient has a comorbid Axis I affective DO and is on disability, which often means Medicare. Medicare benefits are fairly loosely managed and grant more access to treatment than many private MBHOs."

Ouch. Unfortunately I do not want to give Cluster B Axis II patients disability. Several of them ask me for it, but due to the nature of manipulation with these patients, its too hard to distinguish from those that want disability to get "free money".

But thanks for the information. Definitely informative & helpful!

to clarify- I was meaning that they are already on disability due to their Axis I. Do they grant disability for Axis II alone? I'm not sure...... most of mine already come in with disability and Medicare with no formal knowledge of their Axis II diagnosis.

Totally with you on the manipulation. Was talking with a psychiatrist friend about that the other night- he said that when patients call to schedule a first appointment, his secretary tells them "Dr. B does not do disability paperwork", and that helps weed out the money grubbers.

I've only had to help with the paperwork once, and it was someone who truly deserved it. Several of my colleagues get multiple requests every month- they say it's almost always for children who have ADHD b/c the parents want the money. :thumbdown:

Edit: forgot this, but good to keep in the back of your mind for when you're done with residency.... completing disability paperwork for a patient is not considered "medically necessary" by MBHOs. therefore, any practitioner is able to charge whatever they want to the patient in order to fill it out. My friend and I were trying to figure out our "policies" on this the other day, and decided that we'd need at least double our hourly fee UP FRONT before we'd be able to do it. We figured on one hour to review/compile the notes and another to write up the letter.
 
Yeah, thanks for the clarification and I didn't believe you were suggesting I give disability just for Axis II coverage.

I try to stay away from granting disability in the inpatient setting unless I know the patient has a real Axis I, and in those cases I try not to necessarily give it to depressed patients because depressed patients sometimes improve with being active with work.

Problem for me is in the STCF setting (short term care facility), we usually only have our patients for 5 days. It is not enough time to figure out for real if the patient has some malingering agenda to obtain disability. If they want it, I try to refer them to outpatient, because outpatient doctors will get to know the patient on a long term basis.

Yeah, heck, I know some docs are those types that'll give it to anybody, given anybody as much percocet or xanax as the patient wants, even sometimes knowing the patient is an addict-but I can't stop them. I can only do what I think is right when I got the patient then & there.
 
whopper said:
Yeah, thanks for the clarification and I didn't believe you were suggesting I give disability just for Axis II coverage.

I try to stay away from granting disability in the inpatient setting unless I know the patient has a real Axis I, and in those cases I try not to necessarily give it to depressed patients because depressed patients sometimes improve with being active with work.

Problem for me is in the STCF setting (short term care facility), we usually only have our patients for 5 days. It is not enough time to figure out for real if the patient has some malingering agenda to obtain disability. If they want it, I try to refer them to outpatient, because outpatient doctors will get to know the patient on a long term basis.

Yeah, heck, I know some docs are those types that'll give it to anybody, given anybody as much percocet or xanax as the patient wants, even sometimes knowing the patient is an addict-but I can't stop them. I can only do what I think is right when I got the patient then & there.

5 days of 24 hour supervised medical care is not enough time? Give me 3 hours of psych testing, end of story. Additionally, they wont have diagnosis deferred on axis II for the next 3 years of treatment.
 
PsychEval said:
5 days of 24 hour supervised medical care is not enough time? Give me 3 hours of psych testing, end of story. Additionally, they wont have diagnosis deferred on axis II for the next 3 years of treatment.

In your experience, will the MBHOs authorize that? Ours wouldn't, but my view may be skewed b/c of how our company operated. My boss (clinical psych PhD) usually found testing to be not medically necessary, or would determine that the instruments the facility wanted to use weren't valid enough, or reliable enough, or objective enough, or whatever excuse he could make up that day.

Although that would be another example of the MBHOs saving money in the long-term on a frequently readmitted patient. Pay for the tests, get an accurate diagnosis, find competent outpatient providers to provide appropriate treatment, and watch the number of admissions be reduced.

But now I'm using logic.
 
"5 days of 24 hour supervised medical care is not enough time? Give me 3 hours of psych testing, end of story. "

Depends on the patient.

There are of course a few I could nail in mere minutes. I'm sure I could get all patients with 3 hrs.

Maybe you psychologists have a leg up in this area, because there are several psychological testing tools we psychiatrists don't often employ that you guys do. E.g. we never do MMPIs. Further, we don't have 3 hrs of time to spend with a patient. We often only get about 10 minutes of time and in an inpt setting have to rely on the reports of nurses and group therapists in addition to our own, and sometimes these people's opinions can't be trusted.

On average a psyche resident doing inpt in my program sees about 8-12 patients a day, some of those patients (about 3) will need an H&P-30 minutes of time, after that you only do progress notes: and spend about 10 minutes of time with the patient.

Yeah, we work about 9 hrs a day, but 1.5 is spent in morning report, 1 in groups, 2 is wasted trying to find charts that mysteriously disappear, 2-3 are spent doing discharges, 1-2 are spent doing commitment papers, 1 spent doing report with the attending...

Seriously, you only get a few minutes a day with most patients.
 
whopper said:
There are of course a few I could nail in mere minutes. I'm sure I could get all patients with 3 hrs.

Maybe you psychologists have a leg up in this area, because there are several psychological testing tools we psychiatrists don't often employ that you guys do. E.g. we never do MMPIs. Further, we don't have 3 hrs of time to spend with a patient. We often only get about 10 minutes of time and in an inpt setting have to rely on the reports of nurses and group therapists in addition to our own, and sometimes these people's opinions can't be trusted.


Seriously, you only get a few minutes a day with most patients.

This is a crappy (read it iwth an sh) set up, and this is an eternal frustration. Notice how I am not blaming the psychiatrists! But, a few minutes a day is BS. Having worked in psychiatric hospitals, I know you have pretty much nailed it on the head, Whopper. So what to do about it? I think thre needs to be some serious restructuring. I know I get frustrated when I hear psychiatrists gloat about saleries; or, in mock frankness say, "It's the reality of the situation, if you want to make money in the MH field go into psychiatry". But, I don't think they are providing, on average, the best care that they can provide. Much of this can be attributed to managed health care and hosptial admins. But, I can't help but dream of some 1917 style MH care revolution.
 
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