Psychodynamic vs CBT emphasis important?

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johnhoedack

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I have a tough time knowing whether or not it is important to emphasize psychodynamic therapy in residency. I've been to some programs to heavily emphasize having enough time to learn psychodynamics and have an psychoanalytic institute nearby. I've been to other programs that, while equally invested in therapy, openly mocked the idea of learning psychodynamic therapy and emphasized CBT/DBT/the rest of the alphabet. A few of these are programs I'm trying very hard to decide between, and am left feeling uncertain how to navigate the path from here. Does anyone have any input from the other side?

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I have a tough time knowing whether or not it is important to emphasize psychodynamic therapy in residency. I've been to some programs to heavily emphasize having enough time to learn psychodynamics and have an psychoanalytic institute nearby. I've been to other programs that, while equally invested in therapy, openly mocked the idea of learning psychodynamic therapy and emphasized CBT/DBT/the rest of the alphabet. A few of these are programs I'm trying very hard to decide between, and am left feeling uncertain how to navigate the path from here. Does anyone have any input from the other side?

I don't think that relative emphasis is too important - I would imagine that at many programs some of this will also be up to the individuals interests. However, depending what you meant by 'openly mocked the idea of learning psychodynamic therapy', I would view this as a potential weakness. This could mean that the program believes that in order to practice psychodynamic therapy effectively you are likely to require additional training outside of residency - I'm not sure I agree with with that view but its a legitimate one nonetheless. It could also mean the program really doesn't feel that it is important to learn about psychodynamic theory and practice at all which I would consider to be more of a problem. In my outpatient experience I've had the opportunity to practice a lot of CBT for a variety of diagnostic conditions, including groups, eating disorders, and OCD. I'm also doing a lot of social skills training with adults who have high functioning ASD. In each case I rely on my dynamic training (such as it is) to improve my ability to effectively formulate, establish alliance, and individualize my treatment. Without this capacity I would be less helpful to my patients.
 
They're both useful as a mode of thinking. If you can "try on" a modality and think from that theoretical frame, you'll do better than swallowing either whole.

As Yalom says, beware the Evidence Based Bogeyman. And equally beware the dogma of psychoanalysis.

You're best off studying comparative religions (so to speak) than permanently adopting a single system. And yet you should aim to gain expertise in each.
 
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I've heard two great programs so far openly mock the idea of psychodynmics. Both of these seem like otherwise top-notch programs. They both mocked in the sense that they felt it to be outdated and had little merit to learn vs evidence-based therapies.
 
There are no programs that emphasize CBT, only programs that give you poor psychotherapy training. My program is probably one of the most alphabet soup therapy programs in the country, and we still have significantly more training and didactics time spend learning psychodynamic psychotherapy than on said alphabet therapies. What you are really describing is the difference between programs that place an emphasis on psychotherapy and those that do not. For historical reasons psychodynamic thinking continues to dominate psychiatric training as far as psychotherapy is concerned. Personally I think there is far more that unites psychotherapies and various shamanistic practices than there is that divides them, and we should really be learning how to maximise contextual healing and have a framework for working with patients that honors their stories and lived experience. What heals is meaning making and connection. I do agree it is no longer possible to become truly competent in psychodynamic psychotherapy during residency, but the only programs that seem to draw attention to this are those that don't even bother trying.

Beware dogmatism in psychiatry. I certainly don't advocate eclecticism (the refuge for those who aren't skilled enough in anything), but psychiatry is at its best when we realize there is no explanatory model that truly helps us understand all our patients and thus a pluralistic approach should be embraced. This means learning about a large number of different models and treatments, even if we end up gravitating towards a particular patient population and way of practicing. Those who disparage psychodynamics are just as bad as those who wax lyrical about it.
 
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Splik, can you talk more about how/why psychodynamic theories/practice took hold here in the US with so much more zeal and for so much longer than it did in Western Europe? And how/why did some random mid-Atlantic programs dodge that bullet and largely stayed immune to analytic domination?
 
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Beware dogmatism in psychiatry. I certainly don't advocate eclecticism (the refuge for those who aren't skilled enough in anything), but psychiatry is at its best when we realize there is no explanatory model that truly helps us understand all our patients and thus a pluralistic approach should be embraced. This means learning about a large number of different models and treatments, even if we end up gravitating towards a particular patient population and way of practicing. Those who disparage psychodynamics are just as bad as those who wax lyrical about it.

I would generally agree with Splik, but there is definitely room for individual differences here. I am greatful for my diverse and extensive psychotherapy training despite knowing full well that I will not provide therapy sessions after training. I do think the training makes me a more complete psychiatrist and is applicable to consults/med management.

I will argue that personalities of analysts (specifically institute trained) tend to fall in a particular box and that box may or may not work for all folks. I think its worth thinking about who you want to be around and learn from, because while it might not be pie in the sky perfect psychiatry I imagine some folks feeling much more at home with a place that makes light of psychoanalysis. Feeling comfortable with your attendings/mentors/classmates makes a huge difference in residency and I would personally place it at the top of my list when considering programs.
 
No real opinion either way on this issue, but one thing I can add: there is no better way to see a hospital system hiring administrator's eyes express concern more than mentioning what types of therapy your interested in.

If any of you guys are applying for a good community based position that comes with excellent benefits and a guaranteed salary, I would avoid under all circumstances mentioning therapy at all.
 
I do agree it is no longer possible to become truly competent in psychodynamic psychotherapy during residency, but the only programs that seem to draw attention to this are those that don't even bother trying.

I'm not sure we disagree since 'truly competent' is probably quite a high standard - but, I will say that I feel that by the end of residency I would feel very comfortable offering outpatient dynamic therapy in private practice, and would anticipate very little difficulty in building up a practice. This will require continued engagement with the psychodynamic therapy community, such that I can continue to learn and receive some form of supervision, but I think that is an important aspect to practicing any type of psychiatry. I do recognize that getting to this point is reflective of particular choices I made during residency - for example, I chose to do my entire third year in a setting where I see 25 patients for weekly individual therapy, and have three individual dynamic supervisors. Other residents in our program have contrasting experiences. But the point is, if it is what you are interested in doing, there are ways you can get sufficient experience (at some programs anyway) during residency in order to be competent enough for independent practice.
 
No real opinion either way on this issue, but one thing I can add: there is no better way to see a hospital system hiring administrator's eyes express concern more than mentioning what types of therapy your interested in.

If any of you guys are applying for a good community based position that comes with excellent benefits and a guaranteed salary, I would avoid under all circumstances mentioning therapy at all.
Why?
 
Does anyone have any input from the other side?
I'd feel hinky about a program that knocks and belittles psychodynamic psychotherapy. I'd also feel hinky about a program that knocks and belittles CBT/etc. This is probably an indication of where the program in question offers weak training.

It's a false dichotomy, and many good programs give good training in both. I would be uncomfortable considering someone a well-trained psychiatrist if they didn't have a good background in psychodynamics (even if you're not working in this frame, it's very handy for formulations) and I'd also wonder what is wrong with a psychiatrist that didn't build expertise in CBT and the like. I have a hunch that most decent psychiatrists mix both in their work, it's not a clean distinction. Abandoning either is bad training.
 
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Because employers in the real world care about one thing above all else(and it's not a criticism, they've got books to balance): you delivering care as efficiently as possible that maximizes revenue, reduces money going out(ie hours and extra salaries), and does both of these in a relatively safe manner from a medicolegal standpoint(which goes to reducing money going out longterm). Nowhere in that model is therapy from the psychiatrist valued, and it actually cuts into it in some ways.
 
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It's a false dichotomy, and many good programs give good training in both. I would be uncomfortable considering someone a well-trained psychiatrist if they didn't have a good background in psychodynamics (even if you're not working in this frame, it's very handy for formulations)

this may be true, but that presents another question: In many clinical settings is a good formulation really necessary or does it really impact care in practical ways?
 
In many clinical settings is a good formulation really necessary or does it really impact care in practical ways?
Yes. I'm somewhat surprised that anyone who's studied this field would have this question.
 
this may be true, but that presents another question: In many clinical settings is a good formulation really necessary or does it really impact care in practical ways?
Yes to the first part, no to the second.


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Splik, can you talk more about how/why psychodynamic theories/practice took hold here in the US with so much more zeal and for so much longer than it did in Western Europe? And how/why did some random mid-Atlantic programs dodge that bullet and largely stayed immune to analytic domination?

you will have to wait for me to finish my book for the full explanation :)

Psychoanalysis was never a part of European psychiatry, and most analysts in Europe were not MDs at all. American Psychiatry latched onto the psychodynamic model shortly after Freud gave his Clark Lectures in 1909 and introduced his theories of mind to America. Up until this point American psychiatry and psychiatrists were confined to the asylums. Outpatient mental disorders were treated by neurologists. American psychiatrists wanted to escape the asylums and do private practice but they were only looking after patients manic-depressive insanity, dementia praecox, paranoia, alcoholic dementia, neurosyphilis etc at the turn of the century. Psychoanalysis provided a treatment that allowed the expansion of psychiatry into the community (of note the first practitioners of psychoanalysis in the US were neurologists, not psychiatrists, as Freud himself was). In Freud's vision, there was a psychopathology of everyday life, the boundaries between mental health and mental illness were fluid and anyone could become mentally ill under the right circumstances. And so the range of mental life that came under the psychiatrists' gaze expanded.

Adolf Meyer, who would become the first Chair of Psychiatry at Hopkins was a major proponent of these ideas in his psychobiological model, though he himself was not an analyst. These changes came at the ascendance of the mental hygiene movement and the advent of late capitalism. As America was undergoing significant economic advancement and social transformation, people experienced more alienation and dissatisfaction. It became convenient to displace the source of these problems onto the individual rather than society. It is important to bear in mind that European Psychoanalysis was subversive and about liberation, and the field open to anyone (which remains the case, no mental health background is required). In contrast American Psychoanalysis was conventional, and used as a tool of oppression and conformity. (American psychodynamics had always been a bastardized version of Freud's theories dumbed down for the American audience).

As the psychodynamic model was wedded to psychiatry in general, you had to be an MD to become an analyst until the 1970s in the US (against Freud's expressed wishes - he believed that physicians would make the worst analysts because of their training, and lay analysts would be better). Psychoanalysis also had a particular cachet with the intelligentsia and enjoyed significant cultural influence and prestige in the mid-20th century. Although fully trained analysts were always a minority of psychiatrists, they infiltrated leadership of key organizations and 1/3 of all department chairs of psychiatry were psychoanalysts by the 1960s. In contrast, none of the faculty at the UK medical schools were analysts.

The so-called "mid-atlantic school" did not dodge the bullet and were in fact influenced by psychodynamics also. As mentioned Meyer was Chair at Hopkins although a lot of biological and behavioral research was taking place during the ensuing decades. In the 1950s, Eli Robins, Samuel Guze, and later George Winokur at WashU began meeting, plotting slowly to remedicalize psychiatry and improve the reliability of psychiatric diagnoses. They may well have remained irrelevant to history but by the 1970s psychiatrists no longer held the monopoly on providing therapy. Counseling psychologists, clinical psychologists, social workers, and other therapists offering a wide array of different psychotherapies were beginning to cut in on their turf, and for the first time cost control in healthcare gained salience. Psychiatric diagnosis in the US at this point had fallen out of use, everyone was just diagnosed with schizophrenia, as in the psychodynamic model diagnosis didn't matter. But as psychiatry tried to redefine itself to prevent extinction it became necessary to highlight the role of diagnosis as only psychiatrists could make diagnoses. As psychiatrists were now treating a much larger range of mental life they had to create new diagnoses for the problems in living they were seeing in order to maintain moral authority.

that is the short, but somewhat long answer!
 
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As someone who trained in a dynamically oriented program and currently does research on CBT, I would say that the psychodynamic model of the mind is much more comprehensive than the CBT model, such that even if you primarily practice CBT, it helps to know a lot about defenses, ego functions, transference, the unconscious, etc. The CBT formulation doesn't help you predict which patients will skip sessions after you return from vacation; the dynamic framework does.
 
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The CBT formulation doesn't help you predict which patients will skip sessions after you return from vacation; the dynamic framework does.

Do we have evidence of this? I pubmed it but found nothing...
 
Yes. I'm somewhat surprised that anyone who's studied this field would have this question.

I suppose.....but just keep in mind that nobody is going to be paying you for your formulation.
 
I suppose.....but just keep in mind that nobody is going to be paying you for your formulation.

Treating with no attempt at formulation leads to inefficient treatment (al la, jumping from problems to problem, puting out fires). Finding the source of the fire and understanding how problems are related leads to shorter (read as "cost effective") treatment. This is the ENTIRE basis for treatment plans. Why do you think admins wouldnt care about that?
 
Treating with no attempt at formulation leads to inefficient treatment (al la, jumping from problems to problem, puting out fires). Finding the source of the fire and understanding how problems are related leads to shorter (read as "cost effective") treatment. This is the ENTIRE basis for treatment plans. Why do you think admins wouldnt care about that?



they typically give you so many outpt physician visits per year. Period. I get to see the guy with bipolar d/o with blue cross x times per year, regardless of the presence of absence of a formulation.
 
they typically give you so many outpt physician visits per year. Period. I get to see the guy with bipolar d/o with blue cross x times per year, regardless of the presence of absence of a formulation.

Uh, so...you choose to milk it? Am I reading that right?
 
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Uh, so...you choose to milk it? Am I reading that right?

no, you aren't reading that right. A lot(most?) of the patients I see have chronic psych illnesses that require chronic/lifelong followup. I see them at standard intervals. I suspect your patients are more time limited with you(ie a course of cbt for example). bcbs has a maximum number of visits per year for these patients, and in many cases I don't hit it anyways. I haven't gone over it with any patient this year.

There is no point in 'milking it' because the supply of insured patients is virtually limitless. If bcbs cut the number of pt visits allowed per year by 20%, my schedule wouldn't be 20% less full. I'd just have a slightly higher percentage of intakes as opposed to f/us. Doesn't really make a lot of difference to me.
 
If you have an interest in the history of psychiatry, I'm currently reading through Edward Shorter's A History of Psychiatry (on Amazon for about $20). It's a pretty interesting read and provides a general overview of the development of psychiatry in Europe and the U.S. starting in the 17th century or so.
 
If you have an interest in the history of psychiatry, I'm currently reading through Edward Shorter's A History of Psychiatry (on Amazon for about $20). It's a pretty interesting read and provides a general overview of the development of psychiatry in Europe and the U.S. starting in the 17th century or so.
it's a good read but I wouldn't take him too seriously. He is a revisionist historian and chief apologist of biological psychiatry. his critique of psychoanalysis is so scathing that he can't even see or else refuses to see how it fits in with the history of psychiatry. He regards the era of psychodynamic psychiatry as the "psychoanalytic hiatus", a period of 50 years where American Psychiatry took leave of it senses and believed in voodoo. The idea that this period was discontinuous with the first and second eras of biological psychiatry is just not true and the major failing of his argument. In contrast, he presents the narrative of biological psychiatry as "a smashing success". Given that most histories of psychiatry tend to be quite critical of the profession, there is something radical in Shorter's support for the profession. However, he seems to have lost the plot. His earlier histories of hysteria were in my view much more reasoned and balanced.
 
no, you aren't reading that right. A lot(most?) of the patients I see have chronic psych illnesses that require chronic/lifelong followup. I see them at standard intervals. I suspect your patients are more time limited with you(ie a course of cbt for example). bcbs has a maximum number of visits per year for these patients, and in many cases I don't hit it anyways. I haven't gone over it with any patient this year.

There is no point in 'milking it' because the supply of insured patients is virtually limitless. If bcbs cut the number of pt visits allowed per year by 20%, my schedule wouldn't be 20% less full. I'd just have a slightly higher percentage of intakes as opposed to f/us. Doesn't really make a lot of difference to me.

I guess in someways you are 'formulating', although it may not seem overt or take a lot of time. But in some sense because you have a sense of your patients being 'chronic' and that representing a number of things, your treatment is different to someone who with less understanding of the social context, who might just look at every patient anew, discontinue old med regimens and restart then on only the most 'evidence-based' treatment. You are also incorporating an awareness of systems issues in your treatment planning. Perhaps because this is something you do a lot, it doesn't feel like formulating, but probably if you found yourself working in a university health service tomorrow you would have to approach this process more deliberatively for a time - as would someone working in your context for the first time.
 
Do we have evidence of this? I pubmed it but found nothing...

I'm so sorry to inject my clinical experience into this thread. I have to remember that we are always very strict here about only discussing things with an evidence basis [sarcasm font off].
 
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Love this thread, bringing out the most predictable of posts from everyone. You guys are like clockwork, this is what I picture everyone as in my mind

I picture erg so beholden to p values that he has spam in his salad instead of mixed greens because spam is healthier. After all you know precisely what your eating with spam, the numbers are right there on the back of the can. Those greens could actually be anything and only god could know how many ounces of it are in your bowl.

Vistaril the businessman had recently taken a large and speculative position in PTSD futures when the ISIS situation was really starting to heat up, but is now quickly moving the hedge his position as the media has recently shifted focus and is now more interested in starting wars within america.

Splik the ancient Egyptian, so skeptical of that useless piece of junk taking up space between the ears. He feels Descartes was really onto something, but his Egyptian sensibilities make it obvious the seat of the soul must be the unpaired interventricular septum.

Smallbird and notdeadyet are up in ivory fortresses wondering WTF all these other programs are doing and teaching their residents, although I imagine smallbirds fortress is more well stocked with expensive wines.
 
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Love this thread, bringing out the most predictable of posts from everyone. You guys are like clockwork, this is what I picture everyone as in my mind

I picture erg so beholden to p values that he has spam in his salad instead of mixed greens because spam is healthier. After all you know precisely what your eating with spam, the numbers are right there on the back of the can. Those greens could actually be anything and only god could know how many ounces of it are in your bowl.

Vistaril the businessman had recently taken a large and speculative position in PTSD futures when the ISIS situation was really starting to heat up, but is now quickly moving the hedge his position as the media has recently shifted focus and is now more interested in starting wars within america.

Splik the ancient Egyptian, so skeptical of that useless piece of junk taking up space between the ears. He feels Descartes was really onto something, but his Egyptian sensibilities make it obvious the seat of the soul must be the unpaired interventricular septum.

Smallbird and notdeadyet are up in ivory fortresses wondering WTF all these other programs are doing and teaching their residents, although I imagine smallbirds fortress is more well stocked with expensive wines.

What your characterization of me lacks in accuracy it compensates for by being memorable. I'll take it.
 
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Love this thread, bringing out the most predictable of posts from everyone. You guys are like clockwork, this is what I picture everyone as in my mind

I picture erg so beholden to p values that he has spam in his salad instead of mixed greens because spam is healthier. After all you know precisely what your eating with spam, the numbers are right there on the back of the can. Those greens could actually be anything and only god could know how many ounces of it are in your bowl.

Vistaril the businessman had recently taken a large and speculative position in PTSD futures when the ISIS situation was really starting to heat up, but is now quickly moving the hedge his position as the media has recently shifted focus and is now more interested in starting wars within america.

Splik the ancient Egyptian, so skeptical of that useless piece of junk taking up space between the ears. He feels Descartes was really onto something, but his Egyptian sensibilities make it obvious the seat of the soul must be the unpaired interventricular septum.

Smallbird and notdeadyet are up in ivory fortresses wondering WTF all these other programs are doing and teaching their residents, although I imagine smallbirds fortress is more well stocked with expensive wines.
if smallbird and notdead yet are in ivory fortresses, where am i? a papyrus pyramid?
 
Treating with no attempt at formulation leads to inefficient treatment (al la, jumping from problems to problem, puting out fires). Finding the source of the fire and understanding how problems are related leads to shorter (read as "cost effective") treatment. This is the ENTIRE basis for treatment plans. Why do you think admins wouldnt care about that?

But then what happens if your patient catches fire, and your CBT fire extinguisher malfunctions at that very moment (metaphorically speaking). I mean wouldn't it make more sense to have a number of different extinguishers (read 'treatment modalities/formulations') you could grab and use instead?
 
But then what happens if your patient catches fire, and your CBT fire extinguisher malfunctions at that very moment (metaphorically speaking). I mean wouldn't it make more sense to have a number of different extinguishers (read 'treatment modalities/formulations') you could grab and use instead?
Although I would agree that it is useful to be able to see problems from multiple perspectives, even if you are just doing cognitive behavioral case conceptualizations and therapy there are still a number of different ways of formulating a case and intervening. Revising your formulation doesn't necessarily meaning changing the lens you use to look through, just the way you look through that lens. For example, a formulation of patient with depression - you may start off noting that there is a lack of pleasurable activities in the patient's life and encourage the patient to schedule more activities. This doesn't work. The patient doesn't do the homework you suggest either. You may then reformulate the problem as avoidance maintaining the problem, and the lack of homework completion being further evidence of this. You may then shift focus to working on the avoidance, trying to understand what thoughts and feelings go with and and task more manageable behavior experiments where the patient is tasked to do things s/he may otherwise avoid. If the next time the patient cancels, you may reformulate again - is this another manifestation of avoidance or is there something else going on - hostility towards the therapist, secondary gain maintaining illness, etc. You may then call the patient to find out what is going on. The patient reports not having done the tasks discussed in therapy. S/he reports feelings of shame and being a failure. You may acknowledge these feelings and validate the patient's emotional state and say that perhaps the work was too difficult. She then attends the following week and you may begin to look at these core beliefs that she is a failure, and feelings of having disappointed the therapist. You may examine the automatic negative thoughts and try and challenge the assumptions that come from it. You learn the patient's mother was depressed and when the patient was a child she would tell her that she needed to please others, especially men otherwise she would be alone. The therapist (male) again reformulates the patient and notes that avoidance in the sessions come from these deeply held beliefs and fears that she will disappoint the therapist and he will abandon her leaving her alone. When these thoughts and feelings are explored, validated, and challenged, the patient feels more comfortable, and is able to continue within therapy, engages in the homework, and eventually improves.

CBT is not one approach but includes lots of different techniques including behavior activation, exposure/response prevention, monitoring, reinforcement, socratic questioning, looking at reasoning biases and dysfunctional beliefs, examining core beliefs, using relaxation, hypnosis, mindfulness, imagery, metaphor, storytelling, focusing on behaviors within the therapy and exploring the client-therapist relationship, radical acceptance, willingness, cognitive defusion etc etc. There are many different approaches and ways of seeing within this. Although CBT therapists assiduously avoid all discussion of transference and countertransference, good therapists certainly do identify these elements and do transference work though the may not refer to it as such. The best example is probably in functional analytic psychotherapy.

Because CBT is typically cursorily taught in the vast majority of psychiatry residencies, and because they often train up people do CBT-lite using basic interventions, I think people forget that you can indeed use a cognitive-behavioral model to make complex formulations to help guide treatment are there are many different approaches within CBT that are being developed. Jacqueline Persons has written a great book on this (and there are others). It is a shame formulation is often wedded to psychodynamic as there are many other levels of formulating.
 
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Although I would agree that it is useful to be able to see problems from multiple perspectives, even if you are just doing cognitive behavioral case conceptualizations and therapy there are still a number of different ways of formulating a case and intervening. Revising your formulation doesn't necessarily meaning changing the lens you use to look through, just the way you look through that lens. For example, a formulation of patient with depression - you may start off noting that there is a lack of pleasurable activities in the patient's life and encourage the patient to schedule more activities. This doesn't work. The patient doesn't do the homework you suggest either. You may then reformulate the problem as avoidance maintaining the problem, and the lack of homework completion being further evidence of this. You may then shift focus to working on the avoidance, trying to understand what thoughts and feelings go with and and task more manageable behavior experiments where the patient is tasked to do things s/he may otherwise avoid. If the next time the patient cancels, you may reformulate again - is this another manifestation of avoidance or is there something else going on - hostility towards the therapist, secondary gain maintaining illness, etc. You may then call the patient to find out what is going on. The patient reports not having done the tasks discussed in therapy. S/he reports feelings of shame and being a failure. You may acknowledge these feelings and validate the patient's emotional state and say that perhaps the work was too difficult. She then attends the following week and you may begin to look at these core beliefs that she is a failure, and feelings of having disappointed the therapist. You may examine the automatic negative thoughts and try and challenge the assumptions that come from it. You learn the patient's mother was depressed and when the patient was a child she would tell her that she needed to please others, especially men otherwise she would be alone. The therapist (male) again reformulates the patient and notes that avoidance in the sessions come from these deeply held beliefs and fears that she will disappoint the therapist and he will abandon her leaving her alone. When these thoughts and feelings are explored, validated, and challenged, the patient feels more comfortable, and is able to continue within therapy, engages in the homework, and eventually improves.

CBT is not one approach but includes lots of different techniques including behavior activation, exposure/response prevention, monitoring, reinforcement, socratic questioning, looking at reasoning biases and dysfunctional beliefs, examining core beliefs, using relaxation, hypnosis, mindfulness, imagery, metaphor, storytelling, focusing on behaviors within the therapy and exploring the client-therapist relationship, radical acceptance, willingness, cognitive defusion etc etc. There are many different approaches and ways of seeing within this. Although CBT therapists assiduously avoid all discussion of transference and countertransference, good therapists certainly do identify these elements and do transference work though the may not refer to it as such. The best example is probably in functional analytic psychotherapy.

Because CBT is typically cursorily taught in the vast majority of psychiatry residencies, and because they often train up people do CBT-lite using basic interventions, I think people forget that you can indeed use a cognitive-behavioral model to make complex formulations to help guide treatment are there are many different approaches within CBT that are being developed. Jacqueline Persons has written a great book on this (and there are others). It is a shame formulation is often wedded to psychodynamic as there are many other levels of formulating.

Oh thank you so much for taking the time to write this out for me, very informative. :) I know my Psychiatrist does use CBT techniques with my therapy, but my prior experience of being treated solely with CBT has always seemed very one note so I had no idea there was more to it than that. I suppose I've always considered the Psychodynamic side of my therapy to be more indepth than the CBT stuff (or at least what I can recognise as the CBT aspects of therapy).
 
But then what happens if your patient catches fire, and your CBT fire extinguisher malfunctions at that very moment (metaphorically speaking). I mean wouldn't it make more sense to have a number of different extinguishers (read 'treatment modalities/formulations') you could grab and use instead?

If you are talking about crisis interventions, that is something unto itself. But I would certainly argue it more behavioral than dynamic.
 
If you are talking about crisis interventions, that is something unto itself. But I would certainly argue it more behavioral than dynamic.

Yeah, that seems like it would make sense.
 
What your characterization of me lacks in accuracy it compensates for by being memorable. I'll take it.

I was really grasping at nothing for you and notdead, you all are some of the most reasonable posters and never say anything outrageous. The quality and balance of both of your training shows, so I had nothing to go after.

Anyhow, I probably had too much "turkey" last night so now will return to our regularly scheduled programming.
 
it's a good read but I wouldn't take him too seriously. He is a revisionist historian and chief apologist of biological psychiatry. his critique of psychoanalysis is so scathing that he can't even see or else refuses to see how it fits in with the history of psychiatry. He regards the era of psychodynamic psychiatry as the "psychoanalytic hiatus", a period of 50 years where American Psychiatry took leave of it senses and believed in voodoo. The idea that this period was discontinuous with the first and second eras of biological psychiatry is just not true and the major failing of his argument. In contrast, he presents the narrative of biological psychiatry as "a smashing success". Given that most histories of psychiatry tend to be quite critical of the profession, there is something radical in Shorter's support for the profession. However, he seems to have lost the plot. His earlier histories of hysteria were in my view much more reasoned and balanced.

I haven't finished reading it yet but that's one of the critiques I've heard. I'm a little put-off by the blatant characterization of post-Freud as the "lost years," but I'll wait until I get to that point to get the full effect.
 
Freud was also quite the "revisionist" of sorts was he not? That is, generally a very poor scientist?
 
We should all revise our hypotheses as we take in more data. That's the basis of a good scientist, I would argue.

Yea. So did my uncle when he burned the turkey last year. This year it was delicious. He is not a good scientist, however.

In other words, that's just one element of the game. There are lots of ways to **** it up beyond that. And "revisionist" want meant the same way Splik meant it regarding that author.
 
Freud was also quite the "revisionist" of sorts was he not? That is, generally a very poor scientist?
Freud was a great scientist and made very important contributions to the field of neuropathology and of course discovered the anesthetic properties of cocaine. Psychoanalysis is of course not a science and where its cheerleaders have gone wrong is by claiming that is (largely a north-American phenomenon I might hasten to add). Even Freud noted with some lamentation that his case histories lacked the "serious stamp of science", though perhaps his proudest moment was when he was invited to sign him name in the Charter book of the Royal Society (the pre-eminent scientific society in the world at that time).
 
Freud was also quite the "revisionist" of sorts was he not? That is, generally a very poor scientist?
What is the basis for criticizing Freud as a poor scientist? Was anybody conducting psychological research on treatment of psychopathology at that time?Some of the experiments that they conducted even much later included some much more shameful examples of "science". It is easy to criticize him based on what we know now but it would make more sense to evaluate based on the knowledge of the times. For example, his concept of the Id and Ego are a pretty good approximation the interaction of the frontal cortex and the limbic system, but the knowledge of brain function at the time was extremely limited at the time so he used theoretical constructs to describe these functions. I think he did a pretty good job considering how little we knew at the time.
 
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What is the basis for criticizing Freud as a poor scientist? Was anybody conducting psychological research on treatment of psychopathology at that time?Some of the experiments that they conducted even much later included some much more shameful examples of "science". It is easy to criticize him based on what we know now but it would make more sense to evaluate based on the knowledge of the times. For example, his concept of the Id and Ego are a pretty good approximation the interaction of the frontal cortex and the limbic system, but the knowledge of brain function at the time was extremely limited at the time so he used theoretical constructs to describe these functions. I think he did a pretty good job considering how little we knew at the time.

I didnt say he didn't articulate some, likely, fundamental truths about the human condition/struggle. I said he was poor scientist. He discouraged empircial investigation and too much questioning of his theories, inserted bias out the wazoo into his case studies (sometimes falsifying data/conclsuions from what Ive read), and propagted much nonsense (among some likley truths) as fundamental truths.
 
I have a tough time knowing whether or not it is important to emphasize psychodynamic therapy in residency. I've been to some programs to heavily emphasize having enough time to learn psychodynamics and have an psychoanalytic institute nearby. I've been to other programs that, while equally invested in therapy, openly mocked the idea of learning psychodynamic therapy and emphasized CBT/DBT/the rest of the alphabet. A few of these are programs I'm trying very hard to decide between, and am left feeling uncertain how to navigate the path from here. Does anyone have any input from the other side?
My opinion is that it should not be conceptualized as an either/or dichotomy and the more a program or individual sees it in this way, then the less cognitive flexibility they are displaying. I have read both Linehan and Kernberg and use both in my clinical practice when treating patients with symptoms characteristic of BPD. Why would I limit myself to one tool? In other areas of medicine aren't there often a variety of procedures or medications that could be indicated and then it is the clinical judgement that comes into play when applying it. I often ask the question, if this therapy improves symptoms for 80% of the patients (which would be a bit high), then what do i do if the individual in front of me is one of the 20%?
 
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I didnt say he didn't articulate some, likely, fundamental truths about the human condition/struggle. I said he was poor scientist. He discouraged empircial investigation and too much questioning of his theories, inserted bias out the wazoo into his case studies (sometimes falsifying data/conclsuions from what Ive read), and propagted much nonsense (among some likley truths) as fundamental truths.
I hear you. He was an interesting character and he stated that some of the choices he made, like adhering to the sexual concept as opposed to a more general "attachment" type of connection was because he knew that sex would be more controversial and thus sell his theory better. I still think that his overall influence on our field and culture was a net positive although I do tend to vacillate on my perspective of that. We will be debating that one for centuries, of course!
 
As someone who trained in a dynamically oriented program and currently does research on CBT, I would say that the psychodynamic model of the mind is much more comprehensive than the CBT model, such that even if you primarily practice CBT, it helps to know a lot about defenses, ego functions, transference, the unconscious, etc. The CBT formulation doesn't help you predict which patients will skip sessions after you return from vacation; the dynamic framework does.
What would your response be to the psychology mindset that all psychodynamics methods are simply outdated and irrelevant? I'm trying to get an idea of where my career needs to be for the next couple of decades. Psychodynamics sounds very interesting and applicable to patient care to me, but I don't want to be a dinosaur at the same time.
 
What would your response be to the psychology mindset that all psychodynamics methods are simply outdated and irrelevant? I'm trying to get an idea of where my career needs to be for the next couple of decades. Psychodynamics sounds very interesting and applicable to patient care to me, but I don't want to be a dinosaur at the same time.

I would say return to the peer reviewed literature on treatment efficacy...

Both can work. CBT is clearly superior for some disturbances however (PTSD, Panic, substance abuse) and easier to provide in acute and or short term treatment settings.

I do not agree with that poster's assertion about lack of comprehensivness in CBT. Most explanatory models in the CBT are back by experimental psychopathathology literature. Defenses, ego function, etc. all are incorporated in CBT models, they just go by different names.
 
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