Psychologist vs. Psychiatrist

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JRA21

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Hello, I am currently a psychology major, working on my bachelors. My current goal is a Masters in Psychology, but I am questioning this choice considering the high unemployment rate of psych majors, and also the amount that you receive compared to what you put in, seems to have an unbalance (at least from my own research I've noticed). Going into college I was originally going to do pre-med and pursue psychiatry, however, the long and very expensive years getting there sorta psyched me away. I did not want to spend my entire 20's in school, just to get out and work to pay off my student loan debt. But I am starting to realize that a PhD in psychology provides more opportunities and somewhat (not by much) of a better pay than just having a masters. So wouldn't it make better sense to just get my MD in Psychiatry than my PhD/PsyD in Psychology considering the schooling is just as long (minus the residency for MD). I know it seems the financials are a big focus of mine, but considering the times and the healthcare reform, I want to know my years of education will pay off, especially since either route will give me a huge debt to pay off.

When it comes to the ideal work, one day I'd like to have an independent/associated practice. I am more into psychotherapy. I'm not the biggest fan of prescription drugs when it comes to the mind, but I do understand they help and sometimes are necessary. A professor of mine once said that considering the rate of our nations decline and world issues, more and more people are falling into depression and other mental issues, so the need and demand for psychiatrist is needed more than a psychologist, and that a psychologists actual effectiveness is just as much as talking to your closest friend. This made a lot of sense to me, and actually agree to a certain extent. So I think having the ability to prescribe meds is better than not, especially in today's world full of struggles and stress that people just can't tolerate.

The two have their pros and cons, I just cant decide which one outweighs the other. Any advice? Please and thank you!

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Hello, I am currently a psychology major, working on my bachelors. My current goal is a Masters in Psychology, but I am questioning this choice considering the high unemployment rate of psych majors, and also the amount that you receive compared to what you put in, seems to have an unbalance (at least from my own research I've noticed). Going into college I was originally going to do pre-med and pursue psychiatry, however, the long and very expensive years getting there sorta psyched me away. I did not want to spend my entire 20's in school, just to get out and work to pay off my student loan debt. But I am starting to realize that a PhD in psychology provides more opportunities and somewhat (not by much) of a better pay than just having a masters. So wouldn't it make better sense to just get my MD in Psychiatry than my PhD/PsyD in Psychology considering the schooling is just as long (minus the residency for MD). I know it seems the financials are a big focus of mine, but considering the times and the healthcare reform, I want to know my years of education will pay off, especially since either route will give me a huge debt to pay off.

When it comes to the ideal work, one day I'd like to have an independent/associated practice. I am more into psychotherapy. I'm not the biggest fan of prescription drugs when it comes to the mind, but I do understand they help and sometimes are necessary. A professor of mine once said that considering the rate of our nations decline and world issues, more and more people are falling into depression and other mental issues, so the need and demand for psychiatrist is needed more than a psychologist, and that a psychologists actual effectiveness is just as much as talking to your closest friend. This made a lot of sense to me, and actually agree to a certain extent. So I think having the ability to prescribe meds is better than not, especially in today's world full of struggles and stress that people just can't tolerate.

The two have their pros and cons, I just cant decide which one outweighs the other. Any advice? Please and thank you!

Your professor was incorrect with respect to the bolded portion above, and its unfortunate that he would propagate this misinformation.

As for psychiatry vs. psychology, both would take you approximately the same amount of time, particularly depending on your chosen specialty if you go that route (8 years for psychiatry vs. typically 7-8 years for psychology when you consider 5 years grad school, 1 year internship, and 1 year post-doc to obtain licensure). Neither route will be fundamentally easier, so the training is essentially a wash in that regard.

Psychiatrists typically earn higher salaries because of the higher reimbursement rates for medication-oriented services. This generally offsets the much higher amount of debt they're typically forced to go into for school, so if you go the psychology route, be sure to do so via a funded program. Psychiatrists usually also are in higher demand employment-wise, so if you're geographically-restricted, that's something to consider.

Day-to-day work can look somewhat similar or very, very different depending on what you get into. If you don't at all enjoy and/or have interest in research, then I'd say go the psychiatry route. Given that you want to go the independent/private practice route, in all honesty, I'd say psychiatry would likely be a more financially-viable option.
 
Your professor was incorrect with respect to the bolded portion above, and its unfortunate that he would propagate this misinformation.

As for psychiatry vs. psychology, both would take you approximately the same amount of time, particularly depending on your chosen specialty if you go that route (8 years for psychiatry vs. typically 7-8 years for psychology when you consider 5 years grad school, 1 year internship, and 1 year post-doc to obtain licensure). Neither route will be fundamentally easier, so the training is essentially a wash in that regard.

Psychiatrists typically earn higher salaries because of the higher reimbursement rates for medication-oriented services. This generally offsets the much higher amount of debt they're typically forced to go into for school, so if you go the psychology route, be sure to do so via a funded program. Psychiatrists usually also are in higher demand employment-wise, so if you're geographically-restricted, that's something to consider.

Day-to-day work can look somewhat similar or very, very different depending on what you get into. If you don't at all enjoy and/or have interest in research, then I'd say go the psychiatry route. Given that you want to go the independent/private practice route, in all honesty, I'd say psychiatry would likely be a more financially-viable option.

I think it's also important to consider the type of interventions you want to do, and how you want to approach clinical problems. For example, psychiatrists don't specialize until later in medical school, and they tend to approach things from a medical model. Due to reimbursements, they often spend their time dispensing medication, and very few practice psychotherapy. Personally, I would hate to be a psychiatrist- which is why I'm doing the Clinical Psych PhD route.

Clinical psychologists will often approach things differently. Some may believe in the usefulness of medication to treat mental disorders, some may not- but many work with a treatment team or psychiatrists to help provide feedback on whether the patient's medications are working. Their interventions tend to be much different than psychiatrists- for example, CBT, mindfulness training, behavioral stress management, IPT, etc.

Frankly, I would spend some time figuring out what you believe in- take some psychopathology classes, read some of the literature, figure out what issues most interest you- and go from there. You are really describing two different approaches to treat a problem, and I wouldn't go either route unless you genuinely believe in that approach.
 
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I think it's also important to consider the type of interventions you want to do, and how you want to approach clinical problems. For example, psychiatrists don't specialize until later in medical school, and they tend to approach things from a medical model. Due to reimbursements, they often spend their time dispensing medication, and very few practice psychotherapy. Personally, I would hate to be a psychiatrist- which is why I'm doing the Clinical Psych PhD route.

Clinical psychologists will often approach things differently. Some may believe in the usefulness of medication to treat mental disorders, some may not- but many work with a treatment team or psychiatrists to help provide feedback on whether the patient's medications are working. Their interventions tend to be much different than psychiatrists- for example, CBT, mindfulness training, behavioral stress management, IPT, etc.

Frankly, I would spend some time figuring out what you believe in- take some psychopathology classes, read some of the literature, figure out what issues most interest you- and go from there. You are really describing two different approaches to treat a problem, and I wouldn't go either route unless you genuinely believe in that approach.

:thumbup:

Very much agreed. Remember that as a psychiatrist, you're a physician first; thus, you should have at least some level of interest (and hopefully a healthy amount) in general medical training. Conversely, as a psychologist, you should ideally see yourself at least in part as a scientist first, and thus should have some level of interest in research and applying scientific principles to your daily practice (whatever that might entail).
 
:thumbup:

Very much agreed. Remember that as a psychiatrist, you're a physician first; thus, you should have at least some level of interest (and hopefully a healthy amount) in general medical training. Conversely, as a psychologist, you should ideally see yourself at least in part as a scientist first, and thus should have some level of interest in research and applying scientific principles to your daily practice (whatever that might entail).

I see someone has been reading from The Book of T4C! Additionally, doing a searc would turn up at least a dozen threads exactly like this one, as it is one of the most common questions for this forum.
 
I see someone has been reading from The Book of T4C! Additionally, doing a searc would turn up at least a dozen threads exactly like this one, as it is one of the most common questions for this forum.

The first volume had a few dry patches, but was a good read overall; I'm working my way through volume 2 at the moment.

:D
 
Your professor was incorrect with respect to the bolded portion above, and its unfortunate that he would propagate this misinformation.

As for psychiatry vs. psychology, both would take you approximately the same amount of time, particularly depending on your chosen specialty if you go that route (8 years for psychiatry vs. typically 7-8 years for psychology when you consider 5 years grad school, 1 year internship, and 1 year post-doc to obtain licensure). Neither route will be fundamentally easier, so the training is essentially a wash in that regard.

Psychiatrists typically earn higher salaries because of the higher reimbursement rates for medication-oriented services. This generally offsets the much higher amount of debt they're typically forced to go into for school, so if you go the psychology route, be sure to do so via a funded program. Psychiatrists usually also are in higher demand employment-wise, so if you're geographically-restricted, that's something to consider.

Day-to-day work can look somewhat similar or very, very different depending on what you get into. If you don't at all enjoy and/or have interest in research, then I'd say go the psychiatry route. Given that you want to go the independent/private practice route, in all honesty, I'd say psychiatry would likely be a more financially-viable option.
Thanks for the replies, I guess at the moment I'm debating between which method I'd prefer, psychotherapy or the use of meds or a combination of both.

From what I've seen on different threads is that most psychiatrists don't do much psychotherapy unless they are in independent practice. Which for me would take years before I venture on my own or at least until I'm comfortable enough. I feel that this is one reason I keep going back to psychology, because I don't want to get trapped in the system of "what are your symptoms, lets do some tests, here are some meds, see you later." But, then again, I do not want to complete my PhD/PsyD in psychology and regret not having any prescription privileges if ever they become necessary, and say, "well I could be done with med school by now". I do enjoy medicine and the entire human anatomy, but med school is a huge commitment that I'm not sure I'm prepared to make, but at the same time, I want to (if that makes any sense at all).

From what I gather:
1. The term of education is similar, cost of education is higher with med school, but the payoff is greater as well.
2. Psychology has a higher unemployment rate and lower demand.
3. Med school requires full rotation in other specializations outside of Psych, and does not focus a lot on psychotherapy.
4. Entry level psychologists can expect between $30k-$40k and psychiatrists $100k-$150k
5. Psychology has a broader range of opportunities outside of hospitals and clinics, such as sub-specialties like forensics, o/i, etc.

It's probably should not be this difficult for me to decide. o__o I am fond of both. I guess I don't want to wake up 10 years from now and keep saying "if only I had...". I think shadowing would help me decide, but in my city, there is not much opportunity to do so. Can anyone give an example of "A day in the life of psych___"? Thanks again!
 
I I do enjoy medicine and the entire human anatomy, but med school is a huge commitment that I'm not sure I'm prepared to make, but at the same time, I want to (if that makes any sense at all).

This is a common myth. PhD/PsyD is the same level of commitment as an MD (It is 7-8 years from start till licensure post-college to become a clinical psychologist). Graduate school in clinical psychology is 6 years on average (some can do it in 5, but will depend on many factors). You will not be licensed when you graduate from a PhD or PsyD program in clinical psychology in most states, and will likely have to do 1-2 years of supervised postdoc experience to get your hours for licensure. With dissertation and the current internship crisis in clinical psychology, you also have less control over when you will graduate, whereas medical school is pretty set at 4 years. I am one of those overachiever types who has never missed a deadline, and I still graduated almost 1 year later than expected when I entered the program due to dissertation delays.
 
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Thanks for the replies, I guess at the moment I'm debating between which method I'd prefer, psychotherapy or the use of meds or a combination of both.

From what I've seen on different threads is that most psychiatrists don't do much psychotherapy unless they are in independent practice. Which for me would take years before I venture on my own or at least until I'm comfortable enough. I feel that this is one reason I keep going back to psychology, because I don't want to get trapped in the system of "what are your symptoms, lets do some tests, here are some meds, see you later." But, then again, I do not want to complete my PhD/PsyD in psychology and regret not having any prescription privileges if ever they become necessary, and say, "well I could be done with med school by now". I do enjoy medicine and the entire human anatomy, but med school is a huge commitment that I'm not sure I'm prepared to make, but at the same time, I want to (if that makes any sense at all).

From what I gather:
1. The term of education is similar, cost of education is higher with med school, but the payoff is greater as well.
2. Psychology has a higher unemployment rate and lower demand.
3. Med school requires full rotation in other specializations outside of Psych, and does not focus a lot on psychotherapy.
4. Entry level psychologists can expect between $30k-$40k and psychiatrists $100k-$150k
5. Psychology has a broader range of opportunities outside of hospitals and clinics, such as sub-specialties like forensics, o/i, etc.

It's probably should not be this difficult for me to decide. o__o I am fond of both. I guess I don't want to wake up 10 years from now and keep saying "if only I had...". I think shadowing would help me decide, but in my city, there is not much opportunity to do so. Can anyone give an example of "A day in the life of psych___"? Thanks again!

If they choose to, psychiatrists conduct psychotherapy. In addition, you may be surprised to know psychiatrists are reimbursed 25 percent more for assessment and 25 percent more for psychotherapy by insurance than psychologists are.
 
If they choose to, psychiatrists conduct psychotherapy. In addition, you may be surprised to know psychiatrists are reimbursed 25 percent more for assessment and 25 percent more for psychotherapy by insurance than psychologists are.

This is true... but think about how much med school costs. How many psychiatrists spend an hour doing psychotherapy when they could prescribe medication to 4 patients in that same amount of time and make significantly more money? There's a reason that today, not many psychiatrists actually conduct psychotherapy extensively- despite the fact that was what the field of psychiatry was founded on. I'd also argue that if psychotherapy is your goal, you'd get significantly better background/training in a Clinical Psych PhD program (in theory).

Is it possible for you to shadow or have informational interviews with people in the two different fields? It might be helpful for you to get a sense of what people do day-to-day, how people got to that position in their career, what other paths they considered, what other career options they had with their degree, etc. I know my ugrad has a database where people can look up and contact alumni, as well as career offices that you can utilize as an undergrad or even as alumni.

You also might want to take a psychopharmacology class and see how much you enjoy that aspect of the field.
 
Trust me, the idea of doing psychotherapy all day is way more appealing in theory than in reality. I say this is a PP licensed psychologist. While I generally like my work, it is very draining ...and yes, a little boring...to do therapy exclusively. I was just having a conversation with a colleague yesterday about how to make our days more varied (e.g., more assessments, giving presentations, etc.)

I think it would be a HUGE advantage to do a balance of med management and psychotherapy. That would create lots more variety in your day.

Good luck,
Dr. E
 
Trust me, the idea of doing psychotherapy all day is way more appealing in theory than in reality. I say this is a PP licensed psychologist. While I generally like my work, it is very draining ...and yes, a little boring...to do therapy exclusively. I was just having a conversation with a colleague yesterday about how to make our days more varied (e.g., more assessments, giving presentations, etc.)

I think it would be a HUGE advantage to do a balance of med management and psychotherapy. That would create lots more variety in your day.

Good luck,
Dr. E

I also do psychotherapy primarily right now as a postdoc resident, with 10-20% of my time in research and supervising/training professionals. I see a good number of patients per day and if you include team meetings, consultation and supervision, I work a non-stop 10 hours per day with no lunch break (5 minutes to eat at my desk). I am more tired than when I was working 12-14 hours per day in a private sector job. Therapy is exhausting more than any other job i've had. I really enjoy it, but find it draining for a daily job because you have to be so active and on all the time. I think I would have a much better quality of life this year if I did 50% therapy, 50% medication management. Ideally, I would love to do therapy 50% of my time and the other 50% teaching, research, supervision, consultation, creative business projects etc.
 
Psychiatrists start out more in the 160-220k range these days, the lower end of that for those in pure academics. There's a thread on this in the psychiatry forum right now.

As for the meds vs. psychotherapy vs. both question - my experience is that few people have a real conception of what we can/can't do with meds, and similarly have very little understanding of what "therapy" is. It's not just talking to someone. To the medical people I describe it as an operator dependent procedure that fundamentally alters the affect and cognition of an individual. It's dynamic, and there's many ways to do it, with varied levels of evidence to support each approach. Just like an internist practices doing central lines (placing a catheter into the jugular, for example), we're practicing something that's a skill and not just knowledge, and is very much an intervention if done well.

It's true that not many psychiatrists do therapy right now, mostly because of a generation gap of those who didn't learn it while training, and those are some of the teachers of the current new generation. That's shifting, though. 8-10 years from now it could be very different. I do psychotherapy everyday, and have just made it a point to make time/space for it in every clinical area I work.
 
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Psychiatrists start out more in the 160-220k range these days, the lower end of that for those in pure academics.

I do psychotherapy everyday, and have just made it a point to make time/space for it in every clinical area I work.

Nitemagi,

I am assuming you are in PP full-time these days. Nice website.

Do you know what mid-career salaries are like for psychiatrists in PP in your location or in other major metropolitan areas? I know some people who are doing very well, but i'm not sure if their salary is in the top percentile. Would like to be able to give students a range.
 
Nitemagi,

I am assuming you are in PP full-time these days. Nice website.

Do you know what mid-career salaries are like for psychiatrists in PP in your location or in other major metropolitan areas? I know some people who are doing very well, but i'm not sure if their salary is in the top percentile. Would like to be able to give students a range.

PP in major areas is varying these days, particularly based on whether you take insurance or not. With the economic downturn rumor has it many had to take other gigs to fill their time. If I had to estimate I'd say in the 250-350k range for those doing well. In county/community/kaiser settings it might be comparable if you factor in benefits.

I honestly haven't asked colleagues. People are always hesitant to ask for #'s. Myself included.
 
Psychiatrists start out more in the 160-220k range these days, the lower end of that for those in pure academics. There's a thread on this in the psychiatry forum right now.

As for the meds vs. psychotherapy vs. both question - my experience is that few people have a real conception of what we can/can't do with meds, and similarly have very little understanding of what "therapy" is. It's not just talking to someone. To the medical people I describe it as an operator dependent procedure that fundamentally alters the affect and cognition of an individual. It's dynamic, and there's many ways to do it, with varied levels of evidence to support each approach. Just like an internist practices doing central lines (placing a catheter into the jugular, for example), we're practicing something that's a skill and not just knowledge, and is very much an intervention if done well.

It's true that not many psychiatrists do therapy right now, mostly because of a generation gap of those who didn't learn it while training, and those are some of the teachers of the current new generation. That's shifting, though. 8-10 years from now it could be very different. I do psychotherapy everyday, and have just made it a point to make time/space for it in every clinical area I work.
So from what I'm understanding, Psychiatry can involve psychotherapy as much as the individual psychiatrist desires, primarily in PP. I guess it all really depends on the institution of employment and personal preference.

After completing a residency, would you recommend doing a fellowship? Considering psychotherapy is not a huge part of medical school, and that the place of residency may not provide much applied psychotherapy either?
 
Trust me, the idea of doing psychotherapy all day is way more appealing in theory than in reality. I say this is a PP licensed psychologist. While I generally like my work, it is very draining ...and yes, a little boring...to do therapy exclusively. I was just having a conversation with a colleague yesterday about how to make our days more varied (e.g., more assessments, giving presentations, etc.)

I think it would be a HUGE advantage to do a balance of med management and psychotherapy. That would create lots more variety in your day.

Good luck,
Dr. E
Thanks! I really needed to hear something like this! This is the main area where my conflicting opinions of psychology vs psychiatry are (the day to day work). I think it best if I attempt to reach out to both in my area and shadow, to really get an understanding.

My mother is a case manager and works with a few psychiatrists, and told me that most of them have Private practices where they do more psychotherapy and 1-on-1 treatment, and they also work in hospitals/clinics more so for the medicine managements side of it all.

Like I just said in a previous post, it seems like it's all up to personal preference and work environment, but is possible to combine the two worlds, as long as you can balance them out.
 
So from what I'm understanding, Psychiatry can involve psychotherapy as much as the individual psychiatrist desires, primarily in PP. I guess it all really depends on the institution of employment and personal preference.

After completing a residency, would you recommend doing a fellowship? Considering psychotherapy is not a huge part of medical school, and that the place of residency may not provide much applied psychotherapy either?

Residencies today are required by the RRC to train residents to be "competent" in several psychotherapies. Which of course leaves a lot of room for interpretation and little motivation or standards for enforcement. I got excellent training in therapy during residency because I sought it out.

I would recommend ongoing training after residency (or internship, for other therapists), but not in a "fellowship." Therapy is best implemented and trained on a longitudinal part-time basis, with workshops plus supervision, IMHO. Taking year(s) extra in a training environment isn't useful, and perpetuates isolation in academia and "more training," which we all can fall prey to, as a form of hiding from going to a "real job."
 
Honestly, psychiatry and psychology are not all that similar and I have no idea why a lot of undergrads think they are. Having been a premed at Hopkins (and completed all my prereqs), I can tell you that the road to get into medical school is far different than the road to get into a reputed PhD clin psych program (where I am now).

1) There are the course differences. While as an aspiring neuropsychologist, I will be taking courses on neuroanatomy, premed prereqs and courses you take in med school cannot be any more different than as a psych major and grad student. Do you ENJOY chemistry, or can you at least get a B+ in physics? Do you at least have some interest in physiology or biology? Or do you like the theoretical nature of psychology? I laugh when psych majors think they can just walk into an ochem class and come out with the same GPA (some do though). I studied about 10 times more for my premed courses than for the hardest psych course I took in college- including grad level ones. Sorry, but think about whether you can even hack it through the courses in med school before you consider that route.

2) The "extracurriculars" are also different. While the top name med schools (i.e. Hopkins/harvard) want you to have research because they are research institutions, many med schools don't care as much. On the other hand, don't even waste your time filling out the applications to phd programs if you don't have AT LEAST 1.5 years of research experience. Do you like research? Can you see yourself toiling over nitty details or spending hours/days/weeks/months trying to analyze the same thing 100 ways?

3) As a clinical psychologist you are a psychologist. As a psychiatrist, you are a medical doctor-i.e. an expert in medicine and its interactions in the body. Don't be so quick to imagine yourself sitting in front of your patient on a green leather couch as a psychiatrist bringing home $200K without considering that you are going to be studying medicine/physiology/virology (you get the point) for 4 years in med school. Also, don't be so quick to pick out your private practice office before being able to hack it through 4-5 years of research- and many times longer.o

4) It really annoys me that many individuals on this forum seem to automatically suggest MD/DO as an alternative to psych without ever having gone down that path. Yes, MD/DO do make more money, but they also have at least $100K in loans to pay off usually. 4/5 of my friends are doctors or med students and have spouse who are also doctors. They are not living in mansions driving mercedes. They are deep in half a million dollar in debt and living in apartments, driving the same car they had in college. Also, consider malpractice insurance + the 40% tax taken out of your paycheck. While I may not be making 6 figures (or "handed 6 figure incomes" as someone posted in a different thread) after I graduate, I am not planning to take out a dime in student loans and will not have half my paycheck going to insure against the possibility of killing my patient and having his family sure me.

5) You should definitely shadow at least 1 psychiatrist- in fact, it is an unwritten requirement for premeds.

Also, keep in mind that the majority of psychologists don't post or even know about this forum. More people are going to go online and complain about their profession than to go online and write about how content they are.

If your impression of psychology generally comes from this forum, you should also google "regret medical school" and you will also find thousands of sites/blogs about people who hate being a doctor. In fact, I just googled "regret be.." and the first search term that came up? "Regret becoming a doctor" next is "regret becoming a nurse".

:/ Take my advice/opinion with a grain of salt...but seriously the two professions are separate for a reason. Psychologists are NOT medical doctors, we have no trained knowledge of medicine (cept in some states...that's a different story) and shouldn't be comparing ourselves to one.
 
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This is anecdotal evidence, but all of the doctors that I know do not want their kids to attend medical school. Of course, maybe they'd feel similarly about psych doctoral programs. ;)
 
Yes, MD/DO do make more money, but they also have at least $100K in loans to pay off usually. 4/5 of my friends are doctors or med students and have spouse who are also doctors. They are not living in mansions driving mercedes. They are deep in half a million dollar in debt and living in apartments, driving the same car they had in college. Also, consider malpractice insurance + the 40% tax taken out of your paycheck. While I may not be making 6 figures (or "handed 6 figure incomes" as someone posted in a different thread) after I graduate, I am not planning to take out a dime in student loans and will not have half my paycheck going to insure against the possibility of killing my patient and having his family sure me.

I

This is beside the point, but did you know that MD's are in the top 2% of income earners in this country (not saying they didn't earn it, but they are not living in poverty as you attest)? regardless. Also, large amounts of debt is NOT unique to MD's. Let's not forget that the vast majority of psychologists graduating today have enormous debt loads. PsyD debt is similar to MD debt, and PsyD graduates are now outnumbering clinical PHD graduates. Also, the median debt for a PHD is 80K. While you are fortunate not to be paying a dime for your degree, you are in the minority these days and do not represent clinical psychologists as a whole. Check out the APPIC survey.

Okay, let's stop with the exaggerations too. Malpractice insurance for a psychiatrist in PP is not half his paycheck. That would be 100K-150K per year. I know one psychiatrist in PP who is paying 6K per year.

I agree with you that they are completely different fields though.
 
This is beside the point, but did you know that MD's are in the top 2% of income earners in this country (not saying they didn't earn it, but they are not living in poverty as you attest)? regardless. Also, large amounts of debt is NOT unique to MD's. Let's not forget that the vast majority of psychologists graduating today have enormous debt loads. PsyD debt is similar to MD debt, and PsyD graduates are now outnumbering clinical PHD graduates. Also, the median debt for a PHD is 80K. While you are fortunate not to be paying a dime for your degree, you are in the minority these days and do not represent clinical psychologists as a whole. Check out the APPIC survey.

Okay, let's stop with the exaggerations too. Malpractice insurance for a psychiatrist in PP is not half his paycheck. That would be 100K-150K per year. I know one psychiatrist in PP who is paying 6K per year.

I agree with you that they are completely different fields though.

1. I didn't say or imply (sorry if it sounded like I did) that MD/DO are living in poverty :laugh: If that's poverty, than I'm literally starving.
2. I was assuming the OP asked about PhD programs...reputable funded PhD programs with stipends/health insurance and tuition remission. The whole PsyD professional school that can't find a job thing is a whole other story. However, I think it is a little fairer to compare professional/profit PsyD schools with Carribean med schools. Yes, some of those people make it into US residencies, but many drop out or cannot match into the US (which essentially is comparable to PsyDs not matching into APA internships).

Of course my post is exaggerated, it wouldn't be fun if it weren't (sarcasm...). You know 1 psychiatrist who only pays 6K a year, I also know a surgeon who pays 60K a year.....doesn't make either one of us correct. All I'm trying to say is that med school and becoming an MD/DO isn't the answer to every psych vs psychiatry question, and this forum is making it sound like it is.

Yes I am fortunate to be in a fully funded program with a stipend I can live off of, but at the same time- I also worked my buttocks off to get there. There are struggling doctors and there are struggling psychologists (though I do agree...psychs have it worse), but I think it's giving young naive people who can't seem to google stuff the impression that psychiatry >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> psychology. There's this overall sense of .... (dare I say it?) jealousy and awe of med doctors on this forum. They make more money. They're happier. Their jobs are better. They spend less years in school. They're prettier. They have prettier spouse. They have cuter babies :laugh::laugh::laugh: please don't take that last part seriously. :D

P.S. I wasn't exaggerating about the 1/2 mill in debt. This is for doctor husband-wife couples. One person is even thinking of doing something completely different...after getting her degree.
 
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This is beside the point, but did you know that MD's are in the top 2% of income earners in this country (not saying they didn't earn it, but they are not living in poverty as you attest)? regardless. Also, large amounts of debt is NOT unique to MD's. Let's not forget that the vast majority of psychologists graduating today have enormous debt loads. PsyD debt is similar to MD debt, and PsyD graduates are now outnumbering clinical PHD graduates. Also, the median debt for a PHD is 80K. While you are fortunate not to be paying a dime for your degree, you are in the minority these days and do not represent clinical psychologists as a whole. Check out the APPIC survey.

Okay, let's stop with the exaggerations too. Malpractice insurance for a psychiatrist in PP is not half his paycheck. That would be 100K-150K per year. I know one psychiatrist in PP who is paying 6K per year.

I agree with you that they are completely different fields though.


. $100K in debt is rather innocuous when you are earning $160K minimum to start
 
Also, keep in mind that the majority of psychologists don't post or even know about this forum. More people are going to go online and complain about their profession than to go online and write about how content they are.

+1, there is great advice to be found here, along with a good bit more negativity then I encounter in my personal interactions with psychologists. Overall I find it to be the best online, with that caveat.
 
. $100K in debt is rather innocuous when you are earning $160K minimum to start

Most of the recent med school graduates that I know had over $200k in debt. Starting below $200k now requires a med school attached to a state university.

That said, they do make considerably more than us. I do have to correct a few things above. I don't believe most starting psychologists make $30-40k unless you are talking post-doc. I would put the average starting salary fully licensed at $40-80k.

Also, while a psychiatrist can practice psychotherapy, many jobs you have will not allow you to do so and many insurance companies will not okay it if there is a cheaper alternative. As for having a private practice, that is becoming harder to establish for either profession given the current climate of healthcare. Data shows physicians are currently becoming employees in greater numbers and I would not doubt it is the same for psychologists. Some things to think about.
 
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+1, there is great advice to be found here, along with a good bit more negativity then I encounter in my personal interactions with psychologists. Overall I find it to be the best online, with that caveat.

But when you ask ANYONE about their job (unless they are a close friend or family member), the default socially acceptable answer is to be pretty positive about it. All the postdocs and interns at my previous internship did not disclose anything negative about the site unless it was with someone they trusted and were close to. I supervise students right now and I don't feel fully free to disclose many things because I want to get a job offer from the site in the future. I find that almost anyone I ask really likes their job, unless it is someone I'm closer to and then I hear the real deal. It's a small world in psychology too.

People don't filter online much at all. They are definitely more blunt, but it's also easier to exaggerate online.
 
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But when you ask ANYONE about their job (unless they are a close friend or family member), the default socially acceptable answer is to be pretty positive about it. All the postdocs and interns at my previous internship did not disclose anything negative about the site unless it was with someone they trusted and were close to. I supervise students right now and I don't feel fully free to disclose many things because I want to get a job offer from the site in the future. I find that almost anyone I ask really likes their job, unless it is someone I'm closer to and then I hear the real deal. It's a small world in psychology too.

I would agree and I would say that the truth is somewhere in the middle. Te truth is that hindsight is 20/20, but it is also not an option. While I definitely agree that some routes in psychology are a bad idea, the psychologist that got a first job making $40k and the one that got a first job making $80k are going to have different viewpoints. The trick is merging those realities.
 
So I totally feel your pain.

I am also a psychology student who is completing her bachelors degree. I aspire to be a psychologist and earn a Ph.D. The thing about psychiatry is to me it seems like one big money market, people go in with a problem and they come out with a bottle of pills that is suppose to cure all of their psychological ailments. I for one one do not believe in that (with the exception of people who have bipolar disorder and other kinds of neuropsychological disorders) and believe that with the right therapy people can get better with whatever disorder they are struggling with.

The best advice I can give you is to get involved with your school's psychology lab (if they have one). This is the best way to get your feet wet (and in the door if you are going to apply for doc programs). I have been currently working in a psych lab and it has actually shown me that I like research more than therapy (which is a huge surprise). I think this is the only way to know for sure before you dive right into a program when you are uncertain if you even want to pursue that degree or not.

Money is ALWAYS a concern. So if you are looking into doc programs look into ones that are fully funded, that way you do not have to pay a dime, and they actually pay you to be there. Funded programs are extremely competitive (obviously) so make sure that you have a high GPA, a good GRE score, and some research under your belt. You want to be a competitive applicant. Make sure when you are looking into grad schools that they are APA accredited, otherwise your degree will be pretty much useless.

You should be concerned with how much money you are going to make, but you shouldn't base your whole career off of it. You should want to do something because it is what you like to do, and because you are helping other people better their lives. Yes, you have to make enough money to live off of, but you should also be concerned if what you're doing will make you happy in the long run. You could be making a good bit of money and hate going to work every day and that makes for one worn down, cranky individual.

Yes school takes time, but if you really want to do it you will. I am in my junior year of college and looking at the work ahead of me I may be in school until I am 27, which is okay with me. Some people would hate the thought of being in school that long, but why not do it now while you're young? I would rather do it then hate myself for not doing it.

Last, you should always do what you want to do. Everything aside. It doesn't matter what everyone else wants you to do, only what you want to do. If you think you are capable of obtaining a Ph.D or PsyD or whatever then go for it. Just be smart about it because you do not want to be in over your head in debt, that doesn't do anyone any good.

Good Luck:luck:
 
Lots of interesting food for thought... good luck with your decision! In my personal experience, don't make a decision until you're sure- whether that requires taking more courses, shadowing people, informational interviews, research experience- either path is a long and tedious one, and you don't want to regret it halfway through. Better to take a few extra years now, when you're in your 20s, and pick something that you will love (that you will be doing until you're in your 60s or so).

As far as medication management- I guess my psychopharm class just really swayed me from believing in medication as a long-term solution to clinical problems. While I wouldn't be against the right to prescribe/unprescribe, I can't imagine wanting medication management to be 40% of my caseload. But again, to each their own, and these are things you're going to have to figure out when choosing your career. There are a few states where psychologists can prescribe, as well as the military, so those are also things you may want to think about.

And someone a few comments up said that psychologists have no medical knowledge. This may be true in some Clinical Psych programs, but there are also a good number of Clinical Health or Clinical and Medical Psychology Programs. These programs focus on training psychologists in the sort of medical knowledge they would need to work in medical settings. Courses are usually a mix of psychology and medical school (or nursing school) courses. It could be an interesting path for someone who is interested in both fields but ultimately wants to go the Clinical Psych route.
 
Thanks for all the help, although there is lots of conflicting ideas about the two fields, I do understand they are completely different paths, but like I said I have a strong interest in both. I do feel more strongly about psychiatry at this point, and I am working on shadowing a local psychiatrist and switching my major to pre-med before fall begins.

Now that that's mostly decided, I have some questions on medical school. I know it's a long ways away, but I'm trying to get all my ducks in a roll ASAP. So, when it comes to MD programs a friend of mine, already in pre-med, informed me she's looking into a fully-funded program so her tuition is less. She wasn't able to completely explain this to me, so can anyone clear this up for me? Exactly what is the difference between fully-funded and not fully-funded program, and which is better?
 
Thanks for all the help, although there is lots of conflicting ideas about the two fields, I do understand they are completely different paths, but like I said I have a strong interest in both. I do feel more strongly about psychiatry at this point, and I am working on shadowing a local psychiatrist and switching my major to pre-med before fall begins.

Now that that's mostly decided, I have some questions on medical school. I know it's a long ways away, but I'm trying to get all my ducks in a roll ASAP. So, when it comes to MD programs a friend of mine, already in pre-med, informed me she's looking into a fully-funded program so her tuition is less. She wasn't able to completely explain this to me, so can anyone clear this up for me? Exactly what is the difference between fully-funded and not fully-funded program, and which is better?

Ask this on the MD boards.
 
Ask this on the MD boards.

This.

As an aside, with the merger of the psych forums to one big goulash allows for further flexibility if the OP decides psychiatry is not a good fit and s/he wants to inquire about being a social worker, marriage and family therapist, counselor, life coach, psych tech, substance abuse counselor, christian counselor, etc. It'll be clear as goulash. :laugh:
 
This.

As an aside, with the merger of the psych forums to one big goulash allows for further flexibility if the OP decides psychiatry is not a good fit and s/he wants to inquire about being a social worker, marriage and family therapist, counselor, life coach, psych tech, substance abuse counselor, christian counselor, etc. It'll be clear as goulash. :laugh:

You forgot Art Therapist. :diebanana:
 
Thanks for all the help, although there is lots of conflicting ideas about the two fields, I do understand they are completely different paths, but like I said I have a strong interest in both. I do feel more strongly about psychiatry at this point, and I am working on shadowing a local psychiatrist and switching my major to pre-med before fall begins.

Now that that's mostly decided, I have some questions on medical school. I know it's a long ways away, but I'm trying to get all my ducks in a roll ASAP. So, when it comes to MD programs a friend of mine, already in pre-med, informed me she's looking into a fully-funded program so her tuition is less. She wasn't able to completely explain this to me, so can anyone clear this up for me? Exactly what is the difference between fully-funded and not fully-funded program, and which is better?

Being "premed" simply means you plan on going to medical school and so is currently or planning on taking all the required courses and do the other necessary things to apply to medical school. It's not a program or anything special, so the fact that is "in premed" doesn't necessarily mean much (just FYI).

As far as funded programs...I haven't really heard that term thrown around for med school. There are definitely opportunities for scholarships, but the only person I personally know of who has a scholarship for med school is in DO school. That doesn't necessarily mean there are no such things as funded med programs and/or scholarships for MD programs...but I think it is definitely not the norm (i.e. I have friends who have 35+ on MCAT, 3.7+ GPA from Hopkins and all the necessary extracurriculars and they are paying out of pocket). This is contrary to funded PhD programs, which is generally (in my opinion) the norm.

I just realized also that there is the option of working for the army/military, and they pay your tuition and fees as well as give you a stipend- given that you work with them after graduation for x number of years.
 
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FYI - There are *some* univs who actually do have a pre-med major rather than "just complete these course requirements."
 
There aren't really "funded" programs unless you're doing NHSC or an MD/PhD program. Otherwise you may get scholarships that are based on merit and financial need. I haven't looked at recent numbers, but the debt range I used to hear was in the mid-100k's, on average. I've known people coming out with 250k, and a friend with 6k (went to UTSW).
 
Hello, I am currently a psychology major, working on my bachelors. My current goal is a Masters in Psychology, but I am questioning this choice considering the high unemployment rate of psych majors, and also the amount that you receive compared to what you put in, seems to have an unbalance (at least from my own research I've noticed). Going into college I was originally going to do pre-med and pursue psychiatry, however, the long and very expensive years getting there sorta psyched me away. I did not want to spend my entire 20's in school, just to get out and work to pay off my student loan debt. But I am starting to realize that a PhD in psychology provides more opportunities and somewhat (not by much) of a better pay than just having a masters. So wouldn't it make better sense to just get my MD in Psychiatry than my PhD/PsyD in Psychology considering the schooling is just as long (minus the residency for MD). I know it seems the financials are a big focus of mine, but considering the times and the healthcare reform, I want to know my years of education will pay off, especially since either route will give me a huge debt to pay off.

When it comes to the ideal work, one day I'd like to have an independent/associated practice. I am more into psychotherapy. I'm not the biggest fan of prescription drugs when it comes to the mind, but I do understand they help and sometimes are necessary. A professor of mine once said that considering the rate of our nations decline and world issues, more and more people are falling into depression and other mental issues, so the need and demand for psychiatrist is needed more than a psychologist, and that a psychologists actual effectiveness is just as much as talking to your closest friend. This made a lot of sense to me, and actually agree to a certain extent. So I think having the ability to prescribe meds is better than not, especially in today's world full of struggles and stress that people just can't tolerate.

The two have their pros and cons, I just cant decide which one outweighs the other. Any advice? Please and thank you!
Not that long ago, I was in a situation very similar to your current circumstances. After college, I continued to pursue my "dreams" by obtaining a master's degree in clinical psychology, with the clear conviction to become a licensed mental health therapist ASAP. So after graduate school, for nearly six years, I served as an Assessment Counselor in the Admissions Department of a freestanding psychiatric hospital (i.e., an understaffed, underfunded, and generally poorly equipped "Psychiatric ER").

For the majority of my "tenure" there (much of it on the graveyard shift), this essentially meant that I, as a freshly graduated M.A. clinician (way before eligibility for L.P.C. licensure), had to single-handedly manage our entire Intake area, which consisted of numerous daunting responsibilities and, unfortunately, many other irritating menial tasks: answering our 24/7 crisis phone, which had at least five incoming lines that were often ringing simultaneously; "wanding" all the presenting patients with a cheap metal detector, in our totally deserted lobby, in order to detect/confiscate any weapons in their possession (because the facility "couldn't afford" a security guard); explaining all of the voluminous registration paperwork to patients/family members, and laboriously assisting many of those individuals who were often too lazy/irritable/impatient/indignant to fill out their paperwork themselves (the facility was also too cheap to pay a receptionist and/or registration clerk after 9PM); serving food trays and cold beverages according to my patients' fickle appetites and rude/entitled demands; escorting entire entourages of patients, significant others, and eccentric family members in and out repeatedly through our locked doors to appease their urgent "need" for q10minute cigarette breaks.

Once these never ending housekeeping functions were satisfied (at least temporarily for that particular moment), I then could plunge into the complex crap shoot of quickly and (somewhat) accurately triaging the relative acuity levels (I was always terribly "unfair", according to the patients) corresponding to each mentally-ill person within the exponentially-expanding mob of agitated patients surrounding me. Once I had identified which of these severely decompensated patients seemed to pose the greatest imminent risk, I immediately forged into the agonizing process of performing, and meticulously documenting, each element of our twelve-page interdisciplinary psychosocial assessment--which was essentially constructed by our business office to anticipate the idiosyncratic requests of every known insurance company in order to meet each of their highly intricate requirements.

As if conducting multiple comprehensive mental health evaluations of highly labile/agitated patients was not tedious enough to endure during the middle of the night, the mega-healthcare corporation which owned our hospital also required me to abruptly interrupt every assessment numerous times, by physically leaving the patient's evaluation room for several minutes, in order to perform (and document perfectly in each medical record) routine q15minute "safety checks" for all of the other waiting patients--whom I would have to search for and individually locate as they wandered around aimlessly within the lobby/hallways/restrooms, and also roamed spookily throughout the large institutional maze that formed our Intake area. This nightly disaster of pure mayhem quickly forced me to sprout a second pair of eyes on the back of my head. Of course I was also forced to pristinely document a lot of little details which I never actually did, because god forbid the chart did not appear perfectly complete. None of my superiors ever worried about how my patients had been doing throughout the night--they were far too busy focusing on whether their medical records were strong enough to justify additional treatment reimbursements from our holy-worshiped insurance companies.

By this stage of nearly every night, I had typically given up on responding to our suicide hotline--from which I could hear the piercing shriek of several lines ringing frantically off the hook, for long stretches of time, through the papery walls of our communal intake office--inside of which my (also communal) cubicle was conveniently located adjacent to our massive, perpetually-screeching fax machine. And by this time, that evil machine would invariably be churning out encyclopedia-thick stacks of direct admission referrals sent to us from our myriad network of uncooperative local hospital emergency departments, whose miserable and heartless staff were always neurotically scheming new strategies to bypass our standardized (EMTALA-mandated) transfer process, in order to ambush us with their latest shady dump-job train-wreck. Alternatively, presumably when the ER nurses weren't in the mood to play that game, they would simply make blatant threats to kick all of the annoying psych patients out of their ER immediately--with "off-the-record" instructions to spontaneously present at our facility as "walk-ins". But regardless of their method du jour, clearly their goal was to deposit those patients upon our threshold ASAP--always with astonishing speed, and via an ingeniously creative array of transportation means (including ambulances, police cars, constable vehicles, facility maintenance trucks, hospital shuttles, municipal transportation systems, personal automobiles; or even hobbling on foot, cane, walker, or wheelchair--whichever mode of travel happened to be the easiest, cheapest, and fastest to arrange at that particular time). On several occasions, their despicable tactics actually involved throwing an actively suicidal patient, alone without any monitoring, into a public taxi cab--while holding their own commitment papers in their hand, with instructions to deliver them to us upon arrival!

So anyway, in the midst of this daily chaotic bedlam, I would somehow manage to keep all of the patients swarming around me alive, and eventually (if it was a rarely smooth night without any major crises, complications, or dramas) I would gradually begin to make a dent in the overflowing bin of backed-up pending assessments, despite having to start and stop each one of my evaluations countless times for a rainbow of ridiculous reasons. But any sense of making headway was deceiving, because after each assessment (assuming I could convince the patient to voluntarily sign in, if needed, and didn't have to call the police), I then had to undertake the excruciatingly boring secretarial job of preparing our massive packet of admission paperwork, which all patients were required to sign by JHACO. (And every morning, you'd better believe that my non-clinical administrative supervisor scrutinized, with a fine-toothed comb, each of these documents that I had produced on my overnight shift). If any egregious mistake had been made, such as my forgetting to write a patient's numeric age on the line directly adjacent to their birthdate, then my very conscientious boss would immediately act upon her irrepressible compulsion to bring that error to my attention: With a curt telephone call in the middle of the day--invariably during my only narrow window of free time for that whole day, when I had foolishly hoped for the unlikely luxury to obtain 3 or 4 hours of sleep.

Moving on, so once I had verified that each of the monkey-forms comprising the patient's sign-in packet had been perfectly executed, I then moved on, as seamlessly as possible, to my next tedious clerical chore. This involved painstakingly entering all of the patient's data (such interesting information as demographics, contact info, next of kin, diagnosis codes, attending providers, insurance information, etc.) into our antiquated 1980s computer system. And since EMR software (like a security guard and a receptionist) was also far too expensive for my Fortune-500 employer's budget, after the patient's primitive dot-matrix face-sheet was printed, I then had I had to waste approximately another ten minutes Xeroxing numerous copies of my entire stack of handwritten documents. These duplicates next had to be manually sorted, and then stapled together with copies of the face-sheet into a variety of very particular combinations, to form specific packets of paperwork which I finally distributed to all the different departments throughout the hospital.

When the patient was finally ready to be admitted into their long-awaited bed, I was also expected to personally walk each patient the entire way to their assigned unit--because the lazy unit staff members certainly were not going to get up off their asses to come retrieve their patient. And to top it all off, I usually had to stand there on the unit waiting with the patient for quite some time, because the nurse had not yet officially declared him/herself ready to receive the new admission--despite the fact that I always gave them hours of advanced notice that their patient would eventually be arriving at approximately that time.

Once all this procedure had been done, and that patient was finally delivered safely to their unit, you might assume that the lengthy ordeal of their admission was finally over. But no! Rather, as soon as I got back to the intake area, I then had the great pleasure of calling the patient's insurance company, waiting interminably on hold, and ultimately spending up to 90 minutes reciting (usually repeating myself several times) the entire contents of my assessment to a snippy "clinical care manager." The next great pleasure was responding to their millions of asinine and irrelevant questions that had nothing whatsoever to do with the patient's reason for admission. These HMO employees are completely jaded, utterly burned-out former mental health professionals--who today hate their lives and clearly regret their career decision. Arguing with them, or joking for that matter, is like trying to communicate with a cynical, know-it-all robot. Anyway, once the divine sacrament of the glorious pre-cert was finally (begrudgingly) granted, which suggested that we would perhaps receive payment (someday) for that patient's treatment, I might have been tempted to feel a momentary slight sense of accomplishment.

But nope…by then it was time to go home (always at least an hour later than when I was "supposed" to leave) and begin to regroup myself, so that I could somehow face the whole ludicrous ordeal all over again 12 hours later!
 
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But nope…by then it was time to go home (always at least an hour later than when I was “supposed” to leave) and begin to regroup myself, so that I could somehow face the whole ludicrous ordeal all over again 12 hours later!

This is getting off-topic, but I am really glad you posted this, as I have found few people that can relate to these kinds of experiences. I worked in an intake department of a free standing psych hospital for two years as a Master's level intake counselor. Our department was more functional than yours (i.e., security officer, secretary), but I can relate to a lot of your experience. We had a lot of problems, mostly patients that were withdrawing from drugs that had to wait way too long before being admitted. The "care advocates" (managed care employees) were generally out of touch with how time consuming and harmful their influence on treatment could be, although some companies were a lot better than others. I was paid very little for all this as well (about half of what nurses made at the hospital), and was often mistreated by other departments.

I was one of the better people there, but I made quite a few mistakes due to stress and burnout. Some of those mistakes still haunt me.
 
This is getting off-topic, but I am really glad you posted this, as I have found few people that can relate to these kinds of experiences. I worked in an intake department of a free standing psych hospital for two years as a Master's level intake counselor. Our department was more functional than yours (i.e., security officer, secretary), but I can relate to a lot of your experience. We had a lot of problems, mostly patients that were withdrawing from drugs that had to wait way too long before being admitted. The "care advocates" (managed care employees) were generally out of touch with how time consuming and harmful their influence on treatment could be, although some companies were a lot better than others. I was paid very little for all this as well (about half of what nurses made at the hospital), and was often mistreated by other departments.

I was one of the better people there, but I made quite a few mistakes due to stress and burnout. Some of those mistakes still haunt me.

Therapists are the most stressed out, underpaid professionals I have ever seen (especially the ones that work in those underfunded, understaffed hospitals/clinics/CMH centers).
 
What the Dickens, counselor2md! (You should think about extending the above for a paying audience, for reals.)
 
Therapists are the most stressed out, underpaid professionals I have ever seen (especially the ones that work in those underfunded, understaffed hospitals/clinics/CMH centers).
I completely agree!

And the worst part of it--the stinging salt rubbed into our numerous gaping wounds--is that NO ONE understands how stressful it is to be a therapist, especially within today's ubiquitous underserved/low-SES settings! Actually, most people erroneously believe that our job is a cushy, highly-paid cake walk. The general consensus I have encountered is that we get paid a fortune for sitting on our asses while nodding and daydreaming about which of our patients we are going to sleep with next.

At least individuals performing other similarly high-stressed/undercompensated jobs (e.g., police officers, teachers, etc.) can generally enjoy our societal appreciation and gratitude for their service to the community; accordingly, such professionals are consistently rewarded for their efforts by the robust level of respect they receive from virtually everyone around them.

For therapists, sadly, this is simply not the case.
 
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I completely agree!

And the worst part of it--the stinging salt rubbed into our numerous gaping wounds--is that NO ONE understands how stressful it is to be a therapist, especially within today's ubiquitous underserved/low-SES settings! Actually, most people erroneously believe that our job is a cushy, highly-paid cake walk. The general consensus I have encountered is that we get paid a fortune for sitting on our asses while nodding and daydreaming about which of our patients we are going to sleep with next.

At least individuals performing other similarly high-stressed/undercompensated jobs (e.g., police officers, teachers, etc.) can generally enjoy our societal appreciation and gratitude for their service to the community; accordingly, such professionals are consistently rewarded for their efforts by the robust level of respect they receive from virtually everyone around them.

For therapists, sadly, this is simply not the case.

I think you have an idealized view of how society thinks of cops and teachers. My SO is a teacher, and trust me, there is a whole segment of society who has delusions of them all being lazy, overpaid, summers off, union thug baby sitters that society would be better off without... Granted this might be the same crowd that idolizes the police, but you catch my drift.
 
I think you have an idealized view of how society thinks of cops and teachers. My SO is a teacher, and trust me, there is a whole segment of society who has delusions of them all being lazy, overpaid, summers off, union thug baby sitters that society would be better off without... Granted this might be the same crowd that idolizes the police, but you catch my drift.
Perhaps, to some extent, you are right about this. But I still believe that cops and teachers are more appreciated and more respected than public-service mental health therapists.

And, assuming I am completely wrong about this, at least the cop and the teacher will be able to retire someday before they die with a generous PENSION--which is funded (mostly) by the locality in which they work and live.

If being paid to do absolutely nothing in old age, potentially for several decades, does not demonstrate our society's general approval of a profession, then frankly I don't know what else would.
 
Perhaps, to some extent, you are right about this. But I still believe that cops and teachers are more appreciated and more respected than public-service mental health therapists.

And, assuming I am completely wrong about this, at least the cop and the teacher will be able to retire someday before they die with a generous PENSION--which is funded (mostly) by the locality in which they work and live.

.

I agree. Cops have a very stressful job, but at least they can retire after 20 years and they do get a pretty generous pension, often 70% of salary, which they deserve. Therapists have high stress, low pay, dangerous working conditions, generally no pension, and require many more years of training and a graduate degree. I don't know about teachers, but they are underpaid too.

Good thing you are going the MD route. The MD's I know also get generous pensions that are around 70% of salary at places like Kaiser and VA. The psychologists and therapists don't generally get anything or much--unless they work for the federal government, and even then it's not anywhere near 70% of salary. The VA (which has the most generous benefits for psychologists) has some formula that amounts to something like 30K per year for retirement after 30 years, but I am not sure you can also take social security. The MD's that I know at the VA were getting 70% and they also had a union on top of that. As far as I know, the psychologists at the VA's where I've trained were not part of a union.
 
I agree. Cops have a very stressful job, but at least they can retire after 20 years and they do get a pretty generous pension, often 70% of salary, which they deserve. Therapists have high stress, low pay, dangerous working conditions, generally no pension, and require many more years of training and a graduate degree. I don't know about teachers, but they are underpaid too.

This can be one of the benefits of spending your career at a public university/hospital. I'm sure it depends on the location and type of work, but some of the packages are pretty generous.

As for LEO careers....many officers never have to fire their weapon during their career, as only a % of positions are in places where that is more of a frequent occurrence. I'm not saying aspects of the various jobs don't have their drawbacks and significant stressors, but not every LEO is trying to survive in the wrong part of Chicago.
 
Not that long ago, I was in a situation very similar to your current circumstances. After college, I continued to pursue my “dreams” by obtaining a master’s degree in clinical psychology, with the clear conviction to become a licensed mental health therapist ASAP. So after graduate school, for nearly six years, I served as an Assessment Counselor in the Admissions Department of a freestanding psychiatric hospital (i.e., an understaffed, underfunded, and generally poorly equipped "Psychiatric ER").

For the majority of my “tenure” there (much of it on the graveyard shift), this essentially meant that I, as a freshly graduated M.A. clinician (way before eligibility for L.P.C. licensure), had to single-handedly manage our entire Intake area, which consisted of numerous daunting responsibilities and, unfortunately, many other irritating menial tasks: answering our 24/7 crisis phone, which had at least five incoming lines that were often ringing simultaneously; "wanding" all the presenting patients with a cheap metal detector, in our totally deserted lobby, in order to detect/confiscate any weapons in their possession (because the facility “couldn’t afford” a security guard); explaining all of the voluminous registration paperwork to patients/family members, and laboriously assisting many of those individuals who were often too lazy/irritable/impatient/indignant to fill out their paperwork themselves (the facility was also too cheap to pay a receptionist and/or registration clerk after 9PM); serving food trays and cold beverages according to my patients' fickle appetites and rude/entitled demands; escorting entire entourages of patients, significant others, and eccentric family members in and out repeatedly through our locked doors to appease their urgent “need” for q10minute cigarette breaks.

Once these never ending housekeeping functions were satisfied (at least temporarily for that particular moment), I then could plunge into the complex crap shoot of quickly and (somewhat) accurately triaging the relative acuity levels (I was always terribly “unfair”, according to the patients) corresponding to each mentally-ill person within the exponentially-expanding mop of agitated patients surrounding me. Once I had identified which of these severely decompensated patients seemed to pose the greatest imminent risk, I immediately forged into the agonizing process of performing, and meticulously documenting, each element of our twelve-page interdisciplinary psychosocial assessment--which was essentially constructed by our business office to anticipate the idiosyncratic requests of every known insurance company in order to meet each of their highly intricate requirements.

As if conducting multiple comprehensive mental health evaluations of highly labile/agitated patients was not tedious enough to endure during the middle of the night, the mega-healthcare corporation which owned our hospital also required me to abruptly interrupt every assessment numerous times, by physically leaving the patient's evaluation room for several minutes, in order to perform (and document perfectly in each medical record) routine q15minute “safety checks” for all of the other waiting patients--whom I would have to search for and individually locate as they wandered around aimlessly within the lobby/hallways/restrooms, and also roamed spookily throughout the large institutional maze that formed our Intake area. This nightly disaster of pure mayhem quickly forced me to sprout a second pair of eyes on the back of my head. Of course I was also forced to pristinely document a lot of little details which I never actually did, because god forbid the chart did not appear perfectly complete. None of my superiors ever worried about how my patients had been doing throughout the night--they were far too busy focusing on whether their medical records were strong enough to justify additional treatment reimbursements from our holy-worshiped insurance companies.

By this stage of nearly every night, I had typically given up on responding to our suicide hotline--from which I could hear the piercing shriek of several lines ringing frantically off the hook, for long stretches of time, through the papery walls of our communal intake office--inside of which my (also communal) cubicle was conveniently located adjacent to our massive, perpetually-screeching fax machine. And by this time, that evil machine would invariably be churning out encyclopedia-thick stacks of direct admission referrals sent to us from our myriad network of uncooperative local hospital emergency departments, whose miserable and heartless staff were always neurotically scheming new strategies to bypass our standardized (EMTALA-mandated) transfer process, in order to ambush us with their latest shady dump-job train-wreck. Alternatively, presumably when the ER nurses weren’t in the mood to play that game, they would simply make blatant threats to kick all of the annoying psych patients out of their ER immediately--with “off-the-record” instructions to spontaneously present at our facility as “walk-ins”. But regardless of their method du jour, clearly their goal was to deposit those patients upon our threshold ASAP--always with astonishing speed, and via an ingeniously creative array of transportation means (including ambulances, police cars, constable vehicles, facility maintenance trucks, hospital shuttles, municipal transportation systems, personal automobiles; or even hobbling on foot, cane, walker, or wheelchair--whichever mode of travel happened to be the easiest, cheapest, and fastest to arrange at that particular time). On several occasions, their despicable tactics actually involved throwing an actively suicidal patient, alone without any monitoring, into a public taxi cab--while holding their own commitment papers in their hand, with instructions to deliver them to us upon arrival!

So anyway, in the midst of this daily chaotic bedlam, I would somehow manage to keep all of the patients swarming around me alive, and eventually (if it was a rarely smooth night without any major crises, complications, or dramas) I would gradually begin to make a dent in the overflowing bin of backed-up pending assessments, despite having to start and stop each one of my evaluations countless times for a rainbow of ridiculous reasons. But any sense of making headway was deceiving, because after each assessment (assuming I could convince the patient to voluntarily sign in, if needed, and didn’t have to call the police), I then had to undertake the excruciatingly boring secretarial job of preparing our massive packet of admission paperwork, which all patients were required to sign by JHACO. (And every morning, you’d better believe that my non-clinical administrative supervisor scrutinized, with a fine-toothed comb, each of these documents that I had produced on my overnight shift). If any egregious mistake had been made, such as my forgetting to write a patient’s numeric age on the line directly adjacent to their birthdate, then my very conscientious boss would immediately act upon her irrepressible compulsion to bring that error to my attention: With a curt telephone call in the middle of the day--invariably during my only narrow window of free time for that whole day, when I had foolishly hoped for the unlikely luxury to obtain 3 or 4 hours of sleep.

Moving on, so once I had verified that each of the monkey-forms comprising the patient’s sign-in packet had been perfectly executed, I then moved on, as seamlessly as possible, to my next tedious clerical chore. This involved painstakingly entering all of the patient's data (such interesting information as demographics, contact info, next of kin, diagnosis codes, attending providers, insurance information, etc.) into our antiquated 1980s computer system. And since EMR software (like a security guard and a receptionist) was also far too expensive for my Fortune-500 employer’s budget, after the patient's primitive dot-matrix face-sheet was printed, I then had I had to waste approximately another ten minutes Xeroxing numerous copies of my entire stack of handwritten documents. These duplicates next had to be manually sorted, and then stapled together with copies of the face-sheet into a variety of very particular combinations, to form specific packets of paperwork which I finally distributed to all the different departments throughout the hospital.

When the patient was finally ready to be admitted into their long-awaited bed, I was also expected to personally walk each patient the entire way to their assigned unit--because the lazy unit staff members certainly were not going to get up off their asses to come retrieve their patient. And to top it all off, I usually had to stand there on the unit waiting with the patient for quite some time, because the nurse had not yet officially declared him/herself ready to receive the new admission--despite the fact that I always gave them hours of advanced notice that their patient would eventually be arriving at approximately that time.

Once all this procedure had been done, and that patient was finally delivered safely to their unit, you might assume that the lengthy ordeal of their admission was finally over. But no! Rather, as soon as I got back to the intake area, I then had the great pleasure of calling the patient's insurance company, waiting interminably on hold, and ultimately spending up to 90 minutes reciting (usually repeating myself several times) the entire contents of my assessment to a snippy "clinical care manager." The next great pleasure was responding to their millions of asinine and irrelevant questions that had nothing whatsoever to do with the patient's reason for admission. These HMO employees are completely jaded, utterly burned-out former mental health professionals--who today hate their lives and clearly regret their career decision. Arguing with them, or joking for that matter, is like trying to communicate with a cynical, know-it-all robot. Anyway, once the divine sacrament of the glorious pre-cert was finally (begrudgingly) granted, which suggested that we would perhaps receive payment (someday) for that patient's treatment, I might have been tempted to feel a momentary slight sense of accomplishment.

But nope…by then it was time to go home (always at least an hour later than when I was “supposed” to leave) and begin to regroup myself, so that I could somehow face the whole ludicrous ordeal all over again 12 hours later!

This sounds alot like a position I know exists at a psych hospital in my city. Same job name, I think. I have always thought it sounded like a horrendous job (given my knowledge of the facility and the duties described). Yuk!
 
I thought I would add this caveat as just an FYI...

Neuropsychology typically has a higher potential for pay as opposed to just being a clinical or counseling psychologist. With the additional training in neuropsychology, you do have the affordance and extra training in neuroanatomy, neuro-assessments, etc. that allow you to provide additional and supplemental services to clients. Not only can you perform psychotherapy and other psychological diagnostics, but you can work with neurologists and neurosurgeons as a team to diagnose and develop remedies for a person with a CNS-related injury. You will find that, if you really have dedication to the field of psychology, you will find your niche and contribute to the field. For example, I know that I personally want to teach university/ college psychology courses as well as practice clinical neuropsychology as well as help develop new neuropsychological diagnostics and development strategies. Since psychology is typically viewed as a less/quantitative or concrete field than physics, chemistry and biology, we are constantly trying to innovate our field to adjust for those "deficiencies."
 
I thought I would add this caveat as just an FYI...

Neuropsychology typically has a higher potential for pay as opposed to just being a clinical or counseling psychologist. With the additional training in neuropsychology, you do have the affordance and extra training in neuroanatomy, neuro-assessments, etc. that allow you to provide additional and supplemental services to clients. Not only can you perform psychotherapy and other psychological diagnostics, but you can work with neurologists and neurosurgeons as a team to diagnose and develop remedies for a person with a CNS-related injury. You will find that, if you really have dedication to the field of psychology, you will find your niche and contribute to the field. For example, I know that I personally want to teach university/ college psychology courses as well as practice clinical neuropsychology as well as help develop new neuropsychological diagnostics and development strategies. Since psychology is typically viewed as a less/quantitative or concrete field than physics, chemistry and biology, we are constantly trying to innovate our field to adjust for those "deficiencies."

The highest earners in this field are generally either in forensics, own booming assessment practices (which of course doesn't require npsych), or are research hound academics. I think Sweets salary survey shows that the average neuropsychologist makes only about 10-15k more than the average non-neuro.
 
The highest earners in this field are generally either in forensics, own booming assessment practices (which of course doesn't require npsych), or are research hound academics. I think Sweets salary survey shows that the average neuropsychologist makes only about 10-15k more than the average non-neuro.

BUT they're the House of psych. Sounds awesome.
 
The highest earners in this field are generally either in forensics, own booming assessment practices (which of course doesn't require npsych), or are research hound academics. I think Sweets salary survey shows that the average neuropsychologist makes only about 10-15k more than the average non-neuro.


I would also add that your neuro-forensic psychologists typically have even higher salaries. In our field, a $10-15K addition in salary is whipped topping on the cake! :p
 
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