Psychopharmacology/Advanced Practice Psychology

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I don't know if there are any/many other posters here from Alabama...but our state is really gearing up for this. The Alabama Psychological Association RxP website claims that the legislation will be propsed in this year's session (It was initially scheduled for 2008 proposal but due to various issues it was delayed).

Here are some related links. If you want, educate yourself and add yourself to the list of individuals supporting the cause, go here:

http://www.alapsych.org/displayemailforms.cfm?emailformnbr=93410

For other articles and information, go to this website and click the links in the top right corner:

http://www.alapsych.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=13

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Heimlich,

please correct me if I missed something in your post, but why does Medical Psychologists being on the board automatically mean closing the door behind them? It seems kind of cynical to me to assume this is why all of them want to be on the board... I guess I'd like to think those on the forefront of this movement would want to keep the army behind them pushing forward.

Well the psychologists who are not yet certified are against the bill. This allows the medical board greater control in who gets certified to be a medical psychologist. They no longer need the army pushing forward anymore they already have what they want.

It is not cynical, The medical board is already gearing up to make it harder for medical psychologists to become certified once they are placed under their control. But this was a bill supported by current medical psychologists. If they wanted to be inclusive they would have just stayed under the umbrella of the psychological association so the same accrediting standards could have been kept.
The medical board is of course ecstatic and is supporting this bill along with currently certified medical psychologists.

Once again this happens in all medical specialties. Unfortunately the psychologists who are unable to get certified will be less marketable and will most likely fall by the wayside.
 
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Why are most psychiatrists so threatened by prescriptive authority for psychologists?
 
Why are most psychiatrists so threatened by prescriptive authority for psychologists?

Maybe they are trying to protect patients because you need a medical background to prescribe psych meds, including knowledge of comorbid medical conditions.
 
Maybe they are trying to protect patients because you need a medical background to prescribe psych meds, including knowledge of comorbid medical conditions.

Nice in theory, but I can count on one finger the number of psychiatrists I know who understand enough about medicine for co-morbid conditions to be a concern.
 
Nice in theory, but I can count on one finger the number of psychiatrists I know who understand enough about medicine for co-morbid conditions to be a concern.
It is definitely a straw man, as the research has shown (since 1998). While there are some areas that need improvement, prescribing psychology is definitely on the rise.
 
Nice in theory, but I can count on one finger the number of psychiatrists I know who understand enough about medicine for co-morbid conditions to be a concern.

I'm sure most can't remember the names of the bones in the human body but they probably keep tabs on what is relevant to their current area as in psychopharm such as metabolic complications, lab values, interactions at neurotransmitter receptors, sodium transport across cell membranes, CNS side effects among others, etc., etc..

Hopefully:D
 
Why are most psychiatrists so threatened by prescriptive authority for psychologists?


I dont know why psychiatrists are threatened. I work in Louisiana and psychology prescribing laws have not lead to any advancement by psychologists nor decreased the demand for psychiatrists. If the psychologists want to prescribe I say let them. Nurse practitioners, nurse anesthetists, PA's and midwives have done nothing to detract from medical doctors.
 
I'm sure most can't remember the names of the bones in the human body but they probably keep tabs on what is relevant to their current area as in psychopharm such as metabolic complications, lab values, interactions at neurotransmitter receptors, sodium transport across cell membranes, CNS side effects among others, etc., etc..

Hopefully:D

I really seems like a turf battle to me. If medical psychologists (psychologists who have earned the 2 year postdoctoral masters in psychopharm) aren't competent in prescribing and unprescribing psychotropic medications, where are all of the horror stories. Over 50 psychologists prescribe in Louisiana today and they have written over 10,000 prescriptions since 2003. Just one case of prescription malpractice by a psychologist would be heralded as proof that psychologists should not prescribe. But where is the proof that properly trained psychologist cannot compentently prescribe? Maybe the RXP people are right.
 
Why are most psychiatrists so threatened by prescriptive authority for psychologists?

I talked about this in an earlier thread which was closed unexpectantly.

What I said is here, but to summarize: psychiatrists (at least the ones I know and work with) are afraid that psychologists will take the low hanging fruit. This is the main issue. Meaning, as a mid-level provider, psychologists with the MS training are able to take the easy patients away from psychiatrists that represent their majority of patients. Psychiatrists will always have the schizos, etc, but like any one else they want easy cases too

I think there is also some concern that two year MS degree with no prerequisites in medical knowledge does not prepare someone for the responsiblity of prescribing drugs. However, like most of you here I don't think that's a fair criticism. All mid-levelers are limited in their scope of practice and my understanding is that the allowed drugs are safe to give even with the limited training that the MS degree provides
 
Echoing what someone said earlier...I get really frustrated with some of the malicious "discussion" going back and forth on this topic. Yes there are good and bad practitioners on both sides of this fence.​

Just to play psychologist here - are these one-sided arguments really not upholding the social psychology idea that we remember factors supporting our case, but ignore/forget/disregard those against our case? Can't we rise above the natural shortcut to do this and recognize this fallacy, and not jump into the mosh pit? If mental health professionals can't even overcome this tendency, how can we even try to get less-informed individuals (i.e. lawmakers, and clients/patients) to look to us for consolutation of the issue?​

I just feel like we could get a lot further as a whole with this cause not by downing those who oppose our bill, but remaining true to the focus of our defense of RxP. Even if many people supporting this cause do support it because the number one problem, in their opinion, is that Psychiatrists are just pill pushers...is expressing this opinion really going to get what we want - the right to prescibe medicine? It just turns the discussion into something for the other side to get defensive about...and in my opinion dilutes our poise.​

Let's picture a little scenario: Lawmaker sees side "A" as presenting their facts and downing the other side. Lawmaker also sees side "B" presenting their facts without downing their opposition. I know it's a little far-fetched, but if we could be side "B" ... wouldn't it really make our push seem a little more legitimate than a turf war? Focusing on degrading the opposition makes it seem like we are in fact just trying to get more priveleges rather than what really started the whole push - patient care, comprehensive services, and ethical treatments. Among many other reasons, we want the privelege so we can reduce the number of other-speciality administration (90%) of psychotrophic medications, and aid the overworked and shortage of psychiatrists...not to replace them. In my opinion, believing and expressing such opinions as a way of accomplishing our goal earns you the justified resentment from said physician. (Of course, I am not condoning unprovoked resentment from them).​

All in all, by all means have the (in some cases, well-informed) negative views of the opposition and let it educate our opinions...but I say leave it out of the discussion threads and the legal push for this right if we want any chance of this progressing at a faster rate than it is now.​

My call to arms to those supporting the movement: Open your minds. It is possible to make our own flame burn brighter without blowing the other one's out.​

To the opposition: I can't speak for everyone so I can only speak for myself. Please know that not everyone supporting RxP thinks negatively of the individuals opposing, even though we may have dissenting opinions. Please respect these individuals even if you don't agree with us...and continue exercising free speech knowing some of us realize and understand that not everyone has the same opinion.​

P.S. this thread is reversible and the same could be said for both sides hoping to see their cause victorious. Since I'm a psychology student, it's just from the perspective of the side I belong to.​
 
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I really seems like a turf battle to me. If medical psychologists (psychologists who have earned the 2 year postdoctoral masters in psychopharm) aren't competent in prescribing and unprescribing psychotropic medications, where are all of the horror stories. Over 50 psychologists prescribe in Louisiana today and they have written over 10,000 prescriptions since 2003. Just one case of prescription malpractice by a psychologist would be heralded as proof that psychologists should not prescribe. But where is the proof that properly trained psychologist cannot compentently prescribe? Maybe the RXP people are right.

I haven't been following this issue, so is there a 2 year post-doctoral training required for all psychologists to prescribe? I'd like to see the curriculum just for fun.
 
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I haven't been following this issue, so is there a 2 year post-doctoral training required for all psychologists to prescribe? I'd like to see the curriculum just for fun.

Yes, it is a 2 yr post doc degree. Just google it to see it yourself.

I know it looks pretty basic (Human Anatomy, Physiology, and Pathophysiology are conveniantly combined into one 3 hour course), but if you look at the scope of practice that the perscribing psychologists have, you'll see it's quite limited. Hence the term mid-leveler
 
2009 Legislative Report
MONDAY UPDATE
Prepared for OAFP
May 25, 2009


HB 2702
The Senate Health Care Committee is spending more time listening to both sides of the debate about whether psychologists should be allowed to prescribe psychotropic drugs.

Prescribing psychologists from New Mexico and Louisiana testified that there have been no complaints about prescribing psychologists in either state. "We are safe. We are competent. We are ethical," one of them said. They emphasized that the right to prescribe is also the right not to prescribe or to unprescribe. They said they've been able to help some patients by taking them off medications.

Sen. Alan Bates (D-Medford) said he's gone back and forth, supporting and opposing this bill about five times in the last two weeks. "I keep getting hung up on whether psychologists are adequately trained to make an accurate diagnosis," especially in complicated cases, he said.

Opponents were given more time in this hearing to detail why they believe the proposed training for prescribing psychologists is inadequate. To protect the public, these psychologists would need "increased supervision, training and regulatory oversight," they said. Others noted psychologists' lack of training in basic sciences.

Both sides talked about the Department of Defense model for training prescribing psychologists. Opponents say the DOD calls for 250 more hours of training that what this bill requires. The committee says it will continue working on this bill to see if they can reach agreement.


http://www.oafp.org/advocacy-legislative-update.php
 
As a mental health consumer I've gotta say I'm all for the properly trained psychologists being able to prescribe. When I was first diagnosed my psychologist and I discussed medication, decided it may be benificial then he had to refer me to a GP (yes a GP, not a psychiatrist!! a GP!!) who then prescribed my meds. I saw the GP every few months to check in, whereas I was seeing my psychologist weekly. I'd really rather the person I'm seeing every week who is intimately familiar with my health and the actual affect that the medication is having be the person who is monitoring and regulating my meds.
The process for getting my meds regulated was exhuasting and stressful, the process would have been much easier (for all parties) if I hadn't had to shuffle between Psychologist and my GP.
I hope by the time I am a practicing Psychologist prescibing will be the norm.
 
I hope by the time I am a practicing Psychologist prescibing will be the norm.

In order for it to be "the norm" they would have to make it part of training in grad school. The average Ph.D. program is aleady 6 years. All the biological and psychopharm course work, plus the time for an appopriate training practicum would extend grad school to 8-9 years. Im not sure where the resources and financial support come from to support every psych grad student for 8-9 years. And where would universities get all this extra money to hire appopriiate faculty and create these courses?

Second, I seriously doubt most psychologists will ever want to put in the extra time and money for the required post doc training in psychopharm. I think it will always remain a minority of the field.
 
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In order for it to be "the norm" they would have to make it part of training in grad school... All the biological and psychopharm course work, plus the time for an appopriate training practicum would extend grad school to 8-9 years.

This is not necessarily true. As more states allow appropriately trained psychologists to prescribe, some universities will integrate the requisite psychopharm courses into their curriculum. Some of these programs will fail, but others will be successful.

The average number of years for completing the Ph.D. in clinical psyc at my alma mater is 5.5-6.0 years (including the internship year). This also includes completion of a minor in a non-clinical area (i.e., at least 4 courses must be completed in a non-clinical field). Some people took neurobiology and other advanced biology courses, some took advanced stats courses, some business courses. Since 4 non-clinical courses are already required to complete that program, it is easy to imagine that the psychopharm program could be integrated by adding one additional year of training for those interested in the psychopharm masters degree.

I do agree that the majority of psychologists won't get the psychopharm masters (at least at first).
 
Come on, be a little respectful here. Don't start the stuff of "a Ph.D. can prescribe better than an MD." What basis do you have for making such a statement? Face it folks. A couple classes in psychopharmacology doesn't replace four years of medical school and four years of psychiatry residency. No offense, but you folks want rights that you don't have the expertise to yield. How are you prepared to conduct a physical examination and bloodwork to weed out somatic possibilities before making a psychiatric diagnosis? Are you prepared to take the fall when you get in over your head and get sued? What are you going to do in the instance of comorbidity? Are you prepared to treat someone who has a coexisting neurological condition, really believing that psychotropics won't have any possible effect with a serious patient such as this? Oh, hell, just tack on a night course in neurology and maybe you can do some EEGs in your spare time. Think about all that. The grass ain't always greener on the other side. That's all I'm saying. I'm sure this will offend some folks, but so be it. I worked hard to get into medical school and I get tired of folks acting like there should always be a quicker and easier alternative to get to the same prescribing privileges. Take the MCAT and go to medical school if you want to be a psychiatrist. Don't take the easier route and then pretend you're prepared to assume the same responsibilities. You folks aren't helping your patients. You're trying to make more money. In the process, you're discouraging medical students from entering psychiatry, thereby exacerbating the shortage of access to mental health professionals, not improving it.
 
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Come on, be a little respectful here. Don't start the stuff of "a Ph.D. can prescribe better than an MD." What basis do you have for making such a statement? Face it folks. A couple classes in psychopharmacology doesn't replace four years of medical school and four years of psychiatry residency. No offense, but you folks want rights that you don't have the expertise to yield. How are you prepared to conduct a physical examination and bloodwork to weed out somatic possibilities before making a psychiatric diagnosis? Are you prepared to take the fall when you get in over your head and get sued? What are you going to do in the instance of comorbidity? Are you prepared to treat someone who has a coexisting neurological condition, really believing that psychotropics won't have any possible effect with a serious patient such as this? Oh, hell, just tack on a night course in neurology and maybe you can do some EEGs in your spare time. Think about all that. The grass ain't always greener on the other side. That's all I'm saying. I'm sure this will offend some folks, but so be it. I worked hard to get into medical school and I get tired of folks acting like there should always be a quicker and easier alternative to get to the same prescribing privileges. Take the MCAT and go to medical school if you want to be a psychiatrist. Don't take the easier route and then pretend you're prepared to assume the same responsibilities. You folks aren't helping your patients. You're trying to make more money. In the process, you're discouraging medical students from entering psychiatry, thereby exacerbating the shortage of access to mental health professionals, not improving it.

Woah there buddy.

1) Are you saying that psychologists aren't qualified to make diagnoses? Do you know what psychologists are? Or what they're trained to do? What they're trained to do (in a nutshell) is perform psych research, psychotherapy, and assessment/make psych diagnoses. This training comes from about 4-6 years of combined coursework/clinical work/research training, an additional 1 year of full-time internship, and at least 1500 supervised clinical hours.

2) Going to clinical psychology graduate school, followed by a two year psychopharmacology program (7-9 years total), is definitely not an "easy way" to prescribe medications. Especially considering the incredibly low acceptance rates for clinical programs (15% with a std dev of 15%, props to futureapppsy2) and of the people who enter those programs and make it through the first 4-6 years, only 75% actually match to an internship. I also worked hard to get into a respected clinical psych program. If you're planning on becoming a psychiatrist, I hope you develop a little more respect for your future colleagues and educate yourself about what they do and how they got there.

Trust me, absolutely no one is going this route with the goal of becoming a backdoor psychiatrist. That’s just insane (joke!). A more logical backdoor method is going to an international medical school if you truly can’t get into med school. Chances are if you can’t get into med school, you won’t be able to turn around and just go to a clinical psychology program.
 
Now that NPs are successfully and safely prescribing, prescribing psychologists are the next target for the "BUT PATIENTS WILL DIE!!!" battle cry. Data from NM and LA have proven otherwise, but that doesn't mean the party line will change.

Data > Scare Tactics

We are taught to trust in research in our training, so why abandon that now?
 
You can study all the psychology texts in the world. You still don't have the basis in anatomy and physiology to carry out the work of a physician. Do you dissect a cadaver in a psychology Ph.D.? I don't believe so. Do you learn internal medicine in a psychology Ph.D.? I don't believe so. It's interesting how you didn't answer my question about how you would deal with a complicated case with comorbidities or how you would address the possibilities of somatic routes to psychiatric symptoms. It's also interesting that you talk to me about respect, when, if you will look at some of the previous posts by your psychology colleagues, you will see that it was said that a psychologist could "prescribe more effectively than an MD." That is simply an inflammatory statement with no basis. I wouldn't become a psychiatrist. Frankly can't imagine why anybody would. I just stumbled across some inflammatory statements and was responding in kind. Simple as that. But honestly I'm sure you folks will get the right to prescribe eventually. And, if there are people out there who want to go to you, more power to them. Just don't forget - what goes around comes around. When folks with bachelor's or master's degrees instead of PhD's start arguing that they should have the same licensing rights as psychology PhD's, then you'll see the other side of the coin. It's always easier to encroach on someone else's turf than it is to have your own encroached on. Everybody will be just about done milking MDs before long. Then it will be somebody else's turn to get picked on.
 
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When folks with bachelor's or master's degrees instead of PhD's start arguing that they should have the same licensing rights as psychology PhD's, then you'll see the other side of the coin.

Er, they already do that (the Masters people, that is). And they're pretty much succeeding, too.
 
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So where does it stop then? Are you telling me that people with a PhD in psychology don't get pissed when somebody with a BA in counseling thinks they have the same preparation to do their job? Does nobody see the problem here but me? I'm not trying to impugn the training of a psychology PhD honestly. It is not lesser, but it is vastly different from a medical education. I just think we've gotten on a very slippery slope here. We have literally everbody wanting to be involved in prescribing - so where does it end?
 
I actually don't want prescription privileges and would not use them even if I received them, so you're kind of preaching to the choir here. I would not say that you are the only person who feels this way; I am certainly not the only psychology student here who is not so keen on the idea of prescribing, and I know others who are against the movement in itself.

I'm just saying that psychologists are also all too familiar with scope creep, and some people may even say that's the reason they're trying to increase their own scope. So, it's not really an issue of increasing empathy for the people on whose turf psychologists are infringing. Yes, they are angry that mid-level providers are claiming competency in areas they do not believe are covered thoroughly enough by their training, and to some people prescription privilege seems to be a solution to this problem. Not everyone agrees of course, and I'm not sure that I would. But, whatever you think, the voting will decide what happens.
 
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When folks with bachelor's or master's degrees instead of PhD's start arguing that they should have the same licensing rights as psychology PhD's, then you'll see the other side of the coin. It's always easier to encroach on someone else's turf than it is to have your own encroached on. Everybody will be just about done milking MDs before long.

Interesting. So training psychologists to prescribe is really a turf issue? I am a Clinical Psychologist and probably won't take the coursework, the national exam, or get the supervision required to prescribe. However, I think properly trained practitioners should be able to practice in areas they can demonstrate competence. There is a decent track record of psychologists prescribing competently. There are nearly 100 psychologists who have received the appropriate training and are presribing today (mostly in Louisiana and New Mexico). These psychologists have written over 250,000 prescriptions without incident (See article in The American Psychologist - Volume 64, pages 257-268). THE PROOF IS IN THE PUDDING!

As psychologists, we are trained to examine the available data and make decisions based upon the data. We are not trained to make decisions based on "turf" issues. I doubt that MDs are trained to protect "their turf" as well. Our objective is to aid our patients in getting quality care. Opinions may vary about whether or not psychologists with the postdoctoral masters in psychopharmacology can compentently prescribe, but the data suggests that these psychologists are competent in prescribing psychotropics.

Finally, it is my belief that if Masters level practitioners can demostrate proficency in a given area (e.g., conducting therapy, assessing psychopathology), they should be able to obtain licensure to practice within their limits.
 
So where does it stop then? Are you telling me that people with a PhD in psychology don't get pissed when somebody with a BA in counseling thinks they have the same preparation to do their job? Does nobody see the problem here but me? I'm not trying to impugn the training of a psychology PhD honestly. It is not lesser, but it is vastly different from a medical education. I just think we've gotten on a very slippery slope here. We have literally everbody wanting to be involved in prescribing - so where does it end?

You seem to think this movement is unified. This is highly controversial, and as far as I know, only a minority of psychologists are actually in favor of it - especially the way the recent bills have been written. Believe me, we see the problem here.
 
they should be able to obtain licensure to practice within their limits.

Your word choice there is interesting. You say that you are not interested in protecting turf among psychology colleagues, yet you are quick to say that those with master's level education should be able to only "practice within their limits." As students of human behavior, surely you admit that we all want to protect our turf to some extent since this is our livelihood that we train extensively for.

So what are the limits with a prescribing psychologist? If I am a patient who presents with mild depression and receives a once daily Paxil dosage - is that acceptable within the scope of a prescribing psychologist? Probably not a big deal there. What if I show up, though, and I am at the same time, say bipolar and eplileptic? Will the prescribing psychologist consult with the neurologist and still attempt to handle such a patient without medical training to understand the comorbidities? Will the psychologist prescribe a drug that can affect both the bipolar and epileptic conditions, with no knowledge of neurology? If the psychologist believes that, say, Lithium is warranted for bipolar therapy, will they monitor for lithium toxicity with no internal medicine training? Will the psychologist, in this case, defer to a psychiatrist? Surely, no psychologist is going to attempt to argue that a psychiatrist (with an MD/DO) does not have more MEDICAL knowledge, particularly beyond the realm of just the psychological aspects of the brain? Not that that makes the psychiatrist better, etc, but trained in a different manner, and more well-equipped to handle certain patients.
 
I dont get the "turf" protecting thing. Part of that is due to the fact that I work in a practice (as a doctoral student in clinical psychology) with neuropsychologists and neurologists. The notion of turf goes out the window here because there is so much overlap between the two disciplines. Its a collegial atmosphere due to necessity and the complexity of the cases we see. The information we give (neuropsychs, largely the assessment piece) helps the neurologists manage patients better in regards to differential diagnosis and medication management. The information the neurologists give us helps in regard to differential diagnosis and in better conceptualizing some of the interventions we do, and in psychosocial management. The knowledge base of the people I work for is functionally the same, but with different levels of focus. There are times when a neuropsychologist has correctly identified something in a patient a neurologist should have picked up on, and times when the neurologists have picked up on something that we missed in a patient.

My choice of getting a doctorate in clinical psychology with a focus in neuro over medical school had nothing to do with the level of difficulty, or prescribing meds, which I have no interest in. I read something in an earlier post about taking the "easy way out" to prescribe medications. Going through a doctoral program in clinical psychology is not the easy road to anything. I compare what will be 5 years of my doctoral training and two years of neuropsych postdoc just to get licensed to practice in my field as pretty damn comparable (albeit not equal) to good friends of mine who went through 4 years to be an MD and 3 or more years in residency, depending on the specialization. They would tell you the same, knowing the content and level of my training...not to mention what I have taught them about behavioral neurology and, ironically, EEGs. They also seem to think that two years of focused training, on top of the 7 years of grad work, practicum, research, internship and fellowship is an appropriate training toward being able to prescribe medication well. Its hard for me to argue with them, after all, they are MDs...and a few DOs.
 
I perceived long ago that most MDs and DOs, despite their reputation for pomposity, are quite impotent about defending their own education, professional standing, and protecting their own futures. I haven't the foggiest clue why. I've never heard an attorney arguing in favor of paralegals having the right to be licensed to practice in the same scope as an attorney. I've also never heard of anyone pursuing a different type of education, no matter what the content or how rigorous - eg, a PhD in political science - and then being given the right to practice law because their training might have prepared them for it - let's say they did their dissertation in constitutional law - still doesn't make them a lawyer. No offense to anybody - honestly - I'm not trying to inflame anybody here. It's just quite bizarre to me.
 
Hey Everyone,

I was only wondering why psychologists cannot prescribe a medication for their patients.

I know someone who sees a psychologist for counseling and she was refer to a psychiatrist to know if she has a disorder. Then when she was diagnosed with a depression her psychiatrist is the one who gives her prescription for her medication. But she sees her psychologist once a month and then she also meets up with her psychiatrist.

So now I know why psychologists are not allowed to give prescriptions.

Thanks to this thread. :)
 
Great news:The wise legislators in Oregon have passed RxP and the progressive governor there has signed the bill into law: http://gov.oregonlive.com/bill/HB2702/.


Finally, those in the rural and/or underserved areas of the great state of Oregon will have a better chance to access appropriate psychological care. This bill will surely alleviate the suffering of many in the state and, by moving the national RxP agenda forward, brings hope to those suffering with mental illness in states yet to pass RxP.
 
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If you are in favor of the bill, please look up your senator and representative and write him/her indicating your SUPPORT of the bill to be introduced next year. Even better yet, PERSONALLY MEET with him/her and tell them why you support the bill. WHen you meet with your reps, it: 1)tells them that you're personally invested in the bill and 2.) that you're watching how they vote on this issue!!!!!!


I don't know if there are any/many other posters here from Alabama...but our state is really gearing up for this. The Alabama Psychological Association RxP website claims that the legislation will be propsed in this year's session (It was initially scheduled for 2008 proposal but due to various issues it was delayed).

Here are some related links. If you want, educate yourself and add yourself to the list of individuals supporting the cause, go here:

http://www.alapsych.org/displayemailforms.cfm?emailformnbr=93410

For other articles and information, go to this website and click the links in the top right corner:

http://www.alapsych.org/displaycommon.cfm?an=1&subarticlenbr=13
 
Hmmm, I should call the OPA to clarify the issue. Thanks
 
So should an online PhD in psychology count toward prescription privileges? Not that that is honestly any better/worse than the Caribbean MD programs, so I'll submit that. Earning a PhD from a respectable university is one thing, but what about a potentially sub-standard program? Anyway, I'm sure prescribing privileges will be obtained by psychologists eventually. I'm just raising the same old objections that nobody listened to about nurse practitioners, PAs, etc, etc. I suppose everybody has the right to choose what provider they want.
 
An online one wouldn't make it, or it'd be very very very hard to get through. APA acredit, then jumping through licensure hoops for the psych license, then getting the state licensure board to approve the prescribing license. I don't think that is a realistic option.
 
Actually, the bill just passed creates a task force that will further examine prescription rights for psychologists. The task force will report back to the congress in Feburary next year. See: http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2009/06/psychologists_sign_off_on_pill.html
Yep, the 7 member task force will consist of psychiatrists, psychologists, and a pharmacist.
And they want them to come up with a compromise. :confused: Not sure how many more restrictions you can put on there and still call it prescription privilege with a straight face.

Nice pass of the buck there legislators. But at least they are bothering to bring up to a vote, which is more than you can say for the Missouri legislature.
 
Yep, the 7 member task force will consist of psychiatrists, psychologists, and a pharmacist.
And they want them to come up with a compromise. :confused: Not sure how many more restrictions you can put on there and still call it prescription privilege with a straight face.

Nice pass of the buck there legislators. But at least they are bothering to bring up to a vote, which is more than you can say for the Missouri legislature.

Yeah, it would seem like the law will be rather restricted; however, the implementation of the law in OR is following the same path followed in NM and LA, both of which also had psychiatrist and psychologist members hammering out a compromise. The law is passed and psychologists there will have prescriptive authority. It is definitely a victory for psychologists and the people of OR
 
So should an online PhD in psychology count toward prescription privileges?

Great question. The Lousiana law states that "only psychologists who have completed a post-doctoral master's degree in clinical psychopharmacology from a regionally accredited institution and have passed a national examination approved by the State Board of Examiners of Psychologists can prescribe. This greatly reduces the odds that unqualified individuals will be able to prescribe medications.
 
psychiatrists do 4yrs of residency after 4 yrs of medical schools. in residency, they work 60-80hrs/wk. so each yr they have over 2,000 hrs of training on prescribing, drugs intereaction and incorporating with their basic medical training to figure out how human bodywork.
 
all psychotropic medication have side affect, hecks, even aspirin has side affects. even with all those training they still able to realized how medicine work and realized their scope of practice.
 
all psychotropic medication have side affect, hecks, even aspirin has side affects. even with all those training they still able to realized how medicine work and realized their scope of practice.

Again. The proof is in the pudding. Psychologists have been prescribing for 4-5 years in Louisiana and New Mexico. Over 200,000 prescriptions and NO complaints or adverse events. It surely seems like psychologists with the proper training (2 year Postdoctoral degree in psychopharmacology) are competent in prescribing psychotropics. Lets try to follow the data and take the emotion and "turf battle" out of this debate.
 
i have seem patient on ICU ward that taking tylenol, lithium, and others. their liver got destroy pretty bad. any blanketing statement should be examine and any data that cover blanket statment should be reexamine.
 
The below article was written before Oregon's success.......


Why Are So Many Psychologists Studying Psychopharmacology?
Sun, 05/03/2009 - 11:52 — admin
— Steven R. Tulkin
The number of psychologists who are entering postdoctoral training in psychopharmacology continues to grow. In January 2009, the California School of Professional Psychology (CSPP) at Alliant International University graduated a class of 61 psychologists who had completed a Postdoctoral Master of Science degree in Clinical Psychopharmacology. Another 100 psychologists are currently enrolled in the CSPP postdoctoral psychopharmacology classes.

There are several answers to the question of why so many psychologists are enrolling in postdoctoral psychopharmacology programs. Although there are still only two states that have authorized psychologists to prescribe (New Mexico and Louisiana), there is clear evidence that the Prescribing Psychologist Initiative (RxP) is continuing to grow. LeVine and Wiggins (2009) report that many of the psychologists who prescribe medication in Louisiana and New Mexico “have increased their referral base through new consulting arrangements and fee for service patients have demonstrated a willingness to seek out their services (page 32).” Several additional states are introducing RxP legislation this year; the Indian Health Service has developed policies that will allow IHS psychologists to qualify to prescribe in any IHS facility; and the Department of Defense has expanded the opportunities for psychologists to prescribe in the military, including opportunities for “contract” psychologists who are not enlisted in the military.

While only two states have authorized psychologists to prescribe, many states have developed recommendations for psychologists’ education and training in psychopharmacology. Over 10 years ago, California Senate Bill 983 was signed into law, adding the following section to the Psychology Licensing Law: “The Board shall encourage licensed psychologists to take continuing education courses in psychopharmacology and biological bases of behavior.” Furthermore, the California Board of Psychology has stated the following:

Psychologists may discuss medications with a patient.
A psychologist may suggest a particular medication to be prescribed by a physician. However, the ultimate decision as to whether a patient should receive medication lies solely with the physician.
A psychologist may engage in a collegial discussion with a patient’s physician regarding the appropriateness of a medication for the condition being treated.
A psychologist has primary responsibility to monitor the patient’s progress in psychotherapy, which includes assisting in monitoring the changes caused in the patient by the drug therapy.
Psychological Model of Pharmacotherapy:
Some psychologists have expressed concern that training in psychopharmacology will lead to the loss of identity of psychology as a behavioral science. The experiences of the graduates of the Department of Defense (DOD) Psychopharmacology Demonstration Project, as well as prescribing psychologists in New Mexico and Louisiana, clearly show that prescribing psychologists will not lose their identities, and, in fact, will become more effective psychologists. Several articles have been written about the “Psychological Model of Pharmacotherapy.” Debra Dunivin (2003), one of the DOD prescribing psychologists states that this is a model, “that incorporates into the pharmacologic interventions all that is known about the intrapsychic, interpersonal, and cultural worlds in which our patients live (p. 13).” Dunivin went on to point out how psychologists who prescribe are different from other prescribers:

Psychologists tend to rely less on exclusive pharmacologic treatments than their colleagues in medicine, and to more frequently integrate pharmacotherapy with psychotherapy.

One of the particular values/skills that psychologists bring to the practice of pharmacotherapy is their ability to establish a therapeutic alliance, and take the time to listen to their patients and develop an appropriate treatment plan with their patients based on the patient’s individual needs. Prescribing within the therapeutic alliance is more likely to result in greater patient honesty regarding adherence, and, therefore, to increased effectiveness.

Finally, Dunivin pointed out that the success of prescribing psychologists indicates that we have learned that psychologists can learn enough medicine to practice pharmacotherapy safely and effectively while still practicing from within a psychological model.

Every postdoctoral psychopharmacology training program incorporates the psychological model of pharmacotherapy in all courses, from the foundational basic science courses to the more applied courses, including treatment of severe forms of mental illness and how to address cultural issues relevant to special populations. Dr. James Quillin, a prescribing Medical Psychologist in Louisiana, said it most simply: “While some of our new professional activities are unmistakably medical in character, the term ‘medical’ in medical psychology is an adjective that modifies rather than defines who and what we are—psychologists. The opportunity to provide a broader range of therapeutic options certainly has not diminished my professional identity.”

Program Information:
Information about postdoctoral training programs in psychopharmacology can be found on the Division 55 (American Society for the Advancement of Pharmacotherapy) website: http://www.division55.org/ContinuingEducation.htm#Comparison

References:
Dunivin, D. (2003). Experiences of a Department of Defense prescribing psychologist: A personal account. In M.T. Sammons, R.F. Levant, and R.U. Paige (Eds.), Prescriptive Authority for Psychologists: A History and Guide. Washington, DC: American Psychological Association. (pp110-116).

LeVine, E. and Wiggins, J. (2009). Prescribing in the private practice setting. Independent Practitioner, 29, 30-32
 
Wow, let's slow down with the egos! I realize this debate is largely dead, which is probably a good thing, but I have to throw my two cents in before it's forgotten because it's an important debate and does have a dramatic influence on both fields.

I'm not sure why this is such a huge issue anyway. Psychologists will not be direct competition for psychiatrists. You won't see a psychologist running an inpatient floor of a hospital. If anything, they will be competition for mid-levels like NPs. Any MD who is worried about 2 years of overview courses replacing them should think about why that's a possibility. Any psychologist who thinks they're able to replace a psychiatrist should reconsider prescribing because they'll be seriously dangerous to patients without knowing their limits.

There aren't any psychologists on here who think they'll be comfortable treating someone with multi-system disease already on 15 medications are there? Someone with a cardiomyopathy and liver failure from years of treating their depression with alcohol? I'm not saying you're not intelligent enough to do it, you're just not trained for it and as a 4th year medical student trust me, you can't train for it in 2 years. I'm a few months from starting residence and I wouldn't go near someone with all those problems without the advice of a psychiatrist.

On the flip side, I have enormous respect for what therapists bring to the picture. I love being able to talk to psychotherapists about existential therapy, CBT, IPT, DBT, etc. I wouldn't go to a psychiatrist when those cases get super complex. I'd seek out the advice of my psychologist friends who are the hands down experts. Again, it's not that psychiatrists aren't intelligent enough, it's simply that they don't have the training. NO ONE PERSON CAN KNOW IT ALL!

Come on guys, you all know better than anybody how complicated the mind is! Why shouldn't it require multiple approaches from multiple groups?

I don't see it as a big deal for psychologists to prescribe if they're meeting safety standards and realize when they need to consult with a psychiatrist or another physician in the case of medical questions. My understanding is that the curriculum for psychologist prescribers includes quite a bit of coursework on when to consult a physician, right? I believe the medical psychologists practicing already are relatively narrow in scope (does anyone know what they're prescribing other than SSRIs?) and have pretty free access to physicians when they need them, yeah?

I do think my psycho friends (sorry, I call 'em psychos:)) have a legitimate fear that psychology will become distorted once patients know they can simply give them pills instead of working through therapy. The obsession with 'quick fixes' our culture has is something I had no appreciation for until I started medical school.

Most importantly, I hope the leaders of the fields on both sides recognize that the rhetoric they use has huge implications for the students who look up to them. I love the field of psychiatry though I'm also applying to Fam Med because I love it as well. Either way, I look forward to learning more from my psychologist and psychiatrist mentors about the complexity of human behavior.
 
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