Psychopharmacology/Advanced Practice Psychology

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Smalltown,

I would only argue that IF rxp training is required. But it is not. Just like training to practice in neuropsych, forensic psych, etc are not requirements. It is additional training. If someone want to practice like a general clinical psychologist, then they are free to do so. If someone wants to pursue neuropsych, they are free to do so. If someone wants to practice RxP, they are also free to do so.

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Smalltown,

I would only argue that IF rxp training is required. But it is not. Just like training to practice in neuropsych, forensic psych, etc are not requirements. It is additional training. If someone want to practice like a general clinical psychologist, then they are free to do so. If someone wants to pursue neuropsych, they are free to do so. If someone wants to practice RxP, they are also free to do so.
If having the ability to prescribe pays more, then wouldn't most eventually pursue the training and then we could end up being med managers and relegate the treatment to MA level people? That is my concern.
 
Using that logic, most would have pursued neuropsych starting in the late 1970s to early 1980s. But it hasn't happened.
 
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Using that logic, most would have pursued neuropsych starting in the late 1970s to early 1980s. But it hasn't happened.

I think more recently there has been an uptick bc high-cost programs are pitching it as a way to pay off all of the $ borrowed. The work can be a real grind if a person doesn't really like it, but that doesn't seem to be a big consideration at most places.
 
Using that logic, most would have pursued neuropsych starting in the late 1970s to early 1980s. But it hasn't happened.

Exactly, compare the APA salary survey with the Neuropsych Salary Survey in TCN. Clear differentiation after 3-5 years. And now, many places are pushing for board certification, which helps wash out some of the pretenders.
 
T4C,

I think that misses the point. Neuropsych still does not represent a majority. Smalltown is indicating that the financial benefits of RxP will make "most" pursue prescribing. I was using neuropsych as a well established model of how this has not proven true.
 
T4C,

I think that misses the point. Neuropsych still does not represent a majority. Smalltown is indicating that the financial benefits of RxP will make "most" pursue prescribing. I was using neuropsych as a well established model of how this has not proven true.

I disagree that "most" will pursue RxP, though I do think there is a clear financial incentive for some.
 
I disagree that "most" will pursue RxP, though I do think there is a clear financial incentive for some.

Of course some will. It happens in every profession to some extent. But, as PsyDr said, "most" won't go that route. It hasn't happened in npsych, where pay is significantly higher. And, it hasn't happened in forensics, where pay is higher still.
 
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I would imagine that it depends on the degree of those financial incentives as I am not sure how much more I could make doing med management verses psychotherapy. When I look at what the hospital bills for a 15 minute med management appoint it is $150, my 45 minute session is $110. If I could start prescribing, I would probably be able to double my compensation. That would make it a very attractive proposition. Also, right now, RxP is separate and additional work to pursue, but if it becomes integrated into programs and perhaps the first to do that would be the large cohort schools, then it might be a different landscape.
 
I would imagine that it depends on the degree of those financial incentives as I am not sure how much more I could make doing med management verses psychotherapy. When I look at what the hospital bills for a 15 minute med management appoint it is $150, my 45 minute session is $110. If I could start prescribing, I would probably be able to double my compensation. That would make it a very attractive proposition. Also, right now, RxP is separate and additional work to pursue, but if it becomes integrated into programs and perhaps the first to do that would be the large cohort schools, then it might be a different landscape.

While I agree that those are the schools that might be most willing to be "early adopters" of an integrated training model, I do wonder about their actual ability to follow-through. If the integrated training reqs are similar to those passed in Illinois, they're faily stringent, and I honestly don't think most of the for-profit schools have the resources (or motivation) available to meet the minimum bar once it pertains to medicine rather than APA's standards.
 
T4C,

I think that misses the point. Neuropsych still does not represent a majority. Smalltown is indicating that the financial benefits of RxP will make "most" pursue prescribing. I was using neuropsych as a well established model of how this has not proven true.
We have evidence that npsych earns more money than the average psychologist. However, this may not be true if we look at psych specialties with equivalent (or near equivalent) requirements (e.g., specific targeted and specific postdoc work). Similarly, do boarded npsych earn more than other boarded specialties?

What I am trying to say is that npsych may not earn more than other similar specialties. But prescribers stand to make a lot more, which provides a stronger financial incentive , and thus more likely
to change how psychology is practiced
 
If the integrated training reqs are similar to those passed in Illinois, they're faily stringent, and I honestly don't think most of the for-profit schools have the resources (or motivation) available to meet the minimum bar once it pertains to medicine rather than APA's standards.
as CGO underscores, the RxP movement is not proposing those standards. The only reason it passed in IL was b/c the main proponents felt it was their last and only chance to have some sort of RxP in IL.
 
Comparing the RxP training models to that of APN's is more difficult than with PA's, for sure. You can look up a PA school's pre-reqs and curriculum in many places, and any person can take that training. By the way, the IL RxP model is NOT an APA RxP training program, It is nothing more than an analog of a PA program and not by accident. When the RxP advocates in IL were being beaten for the 15th year and looked at nothing but more failure for the future, one of them acting completely on her own opted to take the psychiatry people up on the idea of PA-level training. The psychiatry people lifted the entire PA training program from a state university's catalog and insisted on that, which was accepted by one RxP leader so she could score a "win" even though the resulting law probably ensures that no psychologist in Illinois will ever prescribe as a psychologist. She got an APA presidential citation and lots of glory, but only if no one revealed the details of what she agreed to. Her state association and APA made an effort to not reveal that information.

I don't know many details, but the nurse-practitioner model has been in evolution for some time. There are a number of them who were grandfathered in and the model has been changing. The DPN is the latest step. In that evolution it was assumed that nurses would have taken a lot of previous course work for their RN, BSN, MSN, etc. and they would have had extensive professional experience in medical settings. However, there are direct-entry programs that don't expect you to have any nursing background. Rush Medical Center is one example I've heard of. I haven't seen the pre-requisites and curriculum for those APN or DPN programs, so I can't comment on their academic stringency compared to the APA RxP model. I am fully confident that the APA RxP model is grossly inferior to anything required of APN's, and it is obvious that this is the case compared to PA programs.

There are other considerations. Even if you are comparing psychologist-prescribers with the few people who have no medical background whatsoever and obtain APN status through a direct-entry program (and I'm not sure if that's even allowed), you'll still be comparing persons who will almost certainly be practicing medicine full-time in a medical context such as hospitals among medical colleagues, with someone who by definition will only be practicing a slice of medicine part-time in a setting that is not medical, such as a private psychology office. As you can imagine, people get better when they do what they do a lot, and have a lot of intellectual support around them. RxP would create the country's first part-time medical practitioners working in non-medical settings. That, too, creates greater risk of incompetence in the long run.

I don't know the conditions of the online classes for NPs. The APA model for RxP calls for 100 percent online education from the basics of biology to the most complex prescribing for problematic populations, education to be taken by people who have never stepped foot in a hospital, or even a classroom. Online education is much more acceptable when you're learning things in addition to what you already know and have practiced. Thus CE for psychologists is fine online, but even APA does not accredit schools whose entire graduate education offering is online.
Rom Rymer.
 
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To attribute the massive failure of the APA model for RxP to a lack of political expertise by persons who are too focused on science may be an attractive stereotype, but in reality exactly the opposite is true. It is a fact that no empirical evidence has ever been developed to show that the persons prescribing under this model do so safely or effectively. I would invite you to pause and ponder how very important such evidence would be in reversing the tidal wave of legislative failure, and that proponents certainly have the money to conduct such research.

As for the naivete of RxP advocates, nothing could be further from the truth, although it is understandable that you and many others may believe the stereotype of a few psychologists innocently trying to sway the legislatures.

In Illinois, they collected $640,000 just for the most recent effort. $120,000 of that came from practice assessment funds. More was spent in earlier years. RxP proponents hired an astounding eight lobbyists, sometimes a ninth to influence a single member of the House. They had a sophisticated communications outfit spewing information. Nevertheless, their RxP bill failed hands-down. The leader of the RxP campaign apparently knew that after 15 years of failure, they were looking at nothing better in the future, so she agreed to a bill that rejects everything about the RxP campaign and agreed to one with far higher standards in quantity and quality, based on PA training, and one that very likely will not see one psychologist prescribing.

In Louisiana, RxP activists spent $1 million in a state that is relatively small and with a political system that is rather famous for its moral flexibility in the face of rewards. Half that money was in PAC funds that could be and was delivered in direct donations to legislators.

So I understand the image of the naive and underpowered scientist-psychologist simply unable to get traction in the political system, but I assure you that is incorrect.

Funny that provider has lunch paid for by a drug rep, and everyone has to know about it on the Sunshine website.
But a legislator gets over 100G in contributions from a lobbyist and I can't find it.

I think the psyd diploma mill schools in IL will be glad to add the PA requirements to the curriculum...
 
Funny that provider has lunch paid for by a drug rep, and everyone has to know about it on the Sunshine website.
But a legislator gets over 100G in contributions from a lobbyist and I can't find it.

I think the psyd diploma mill schools in IL will be glad to add the PA requirements to the curriculum...

Honestly, it may force them to improve the quality and stringency of their overall curriculum, particularly given the types of classes and rotations/supervision required...
 
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I live in NJ, and the bill introduced here has much more limited training compared to IL by my understanding. My issue with this is essentially the below post I made in another thread in reference to someone wondering if all we learn in med school is really important for becoming a psychiatrist:

Thinking more about this thread (from the OP, not where it has gone), I feel that all you are learning now is truly important for you as a psychiatrist. Any specialty can be taught separately from the start -- we could have a psychiatry school, ortho school, rads school, cards school, etc -- without having to teach all that is taught in medical school. This would produce clinicians that are competent at treating what they have been trained to treat. However, it would cause a fragmentation of the health system. You wouldn't be able to really know and understand issues going on outside your domain. Your ability to understand the research being done would be more limited if it ever discussed the actual biochemistry or effects elsewhere in the body. I think this would cause certain issues to be missed and others to be mismanaged.

Having gone through medical school and taken all those classes has provided me with the background necessary to provide a more 'integrated' care when necessary (and I hate that phrase, I don't mean it in this fluffy, pseudoscientific holistic sense that some do, I'm being more concrete). I certainly don't remember all the details of anatomy or biochemistry, but when necessary I can refresh myself rather quickly as this is information I once knew. And it does matter for understanding some research and some patients. For example, I had an outpatient that claimed to have an autonomic neuropathy due to a cutting of the vagus nerve during a uterine fibroid surgery, and we were wondering if there was some malingering/factitious component to her symptoms. I needed to be able to communicate intelligently with the neurologist, gastroenterologist, and pain doctor. I had to understand what they were saying and the tests they did. I had to use my anatomical knowledge to understand if her claims made sense, and if the Ob/Gyn ever sent me the surgical report, then I would have needed my anatomical knowledge again to make sense of what it said.

For most cases, I believe that most of medical school isn't necessary. But these other cases aren't so rare as to make any of medical school unnecessary for us to learn.

Thoughts?
 
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Honestly, it may force them to improve the quality and stringency of their overall curriculum, particularly given the types of classes and rotations/supervision required...

Which was exactly my concern when the bill was originally written up to the final version as these schools are not very good...
 
I live in NJ, and the bill introduced here has much more limited training compared to IL by my understanding. My issue with this is essentially the below post I made in another thread in reference to someone wondering if all we learn in med school is really important for becoming a psychiatrist:



Thoughts?
I use my medical knowledge daily. I help coordinate care and actually function as some patients PCP until they get into one. Sometimes I'm the first physician they have seen.
 
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CGOPsych...Again….you are not being forthright with the actual training standards. Below I addressed each piece of misinformation you provided.

Here are the training standards as stated in the law for Louisiana (highlighted in blue). Prior requirements from the APA-acred. standards for counseling/clinical psychology training are quoted in orange. My comments are normal black text.



Has successfully graduated with a post-doctoral master's degree in clinical psychopharmacology from a regionally accredited institution or has completed equivalent training to the post-doctoral master's degree approved by the board. The curriculum shall include instruction in anatomy and physiology, biochemistry, neurosciences, pharmacology, psychopharmacology, clinical medicine/pathophysiology, and health assessment, including relevant physical and laboratory assessment.

B3. Program implements a coherent curriculum that enables students to demonstrate substantial understanding of and competence in the following areas (see Implementing Regulation C-16, Broad & General Preparation for Doctoral Programs):
  • The breadth of scientific psychology including:
    • Biological aspects
    • Cognitive and affective aspects
    • etc.
The practical outcome of this requirement includes: Biological Basis of Behavior, Psychopharmacology, and similar classes. There are also electives that some students take. There are even some psychologists that teach neuroanatomy, neurophysiology, and similar in med school, nursing school, etc. I regularly lecture on these and related topics as part of my duties in the residency and fellowship programs at my AMC.



While I agree that the training should be residentially-based, every prescribing psychologist (or medical psychologist in this case) must pass a national exam.

(3) Has passed a national exam in psychopharmacology approved by the board.



A. Medical psychologists shall prescribe only in consultation and collaboration with the patient's primary or attending physician, and with the concurrence of that physician.

B. The medical psychologist shall also re-consult with the patient's physician prior to making changes in the patient's medication treatment protocol, as established with the physician, or as otherwise directed by the physician. The medical psychologist and the physician shall document the consultation in the patient's medical record.

C. In the event a patient does not have a primary or attending physician, the medical psychologist shall not prescribe for that patient.


If this is done for a minimum of 3 years….

Medical psychologists who satisfy the requirements specified by R.S. 37:1360.55(A) of this Part and who possess all of the following additional qualifications to the satisfaction of the board shall be issued a certificate of advanced practice:

(1) Three years of experience practicing as a medical psychologist. For those individuals licensed under R.S. 37:1360.55(A), such experience shall be deemed to have commenced with the issuance of the original certificate of prescriptive authority issued by the Louisiana State Board of Examiners of Psychologists.

(2) Treatment of a minimum of one hundred patients including twenty-five or more involving the use of major psychotropics and twenty-five or more involving the use of major antidepressants which demonstrate the competence of the medical psychologist.

(3) The recommendation of two collaborating physicians, each of whom holds an unconditional license to practice medicine in Louisiana, and who are each familiar with the applicant's competence to practice medical psychology.

(4) The recommendation of the Medical Psychology Advisory Committee.

(5) The completion of a minimum of one hundred hours of continuing medical education relating to the use of medications in the management of patients with psychiatric illness commencing with the issuance of a certificate of prescriptive authority by the Louisiana State Board of Examiners of Psychologists prior to January 1, 2010, or by the board after this date.


I personally don't like that the ascribed numbers to specific types of meds, but that's how they chose to do this.

So…that is a lot more training and supervision than you included in your statement.

I'm going to go ahead and be sarcastic as that's the only thing that seems to stick with the self-interested psychologists on this thread:shifty::

I bet this "national board exam" is complete and highly rigorous. 8-9 or so online classes with not so much as a basic chemistry prerequisite must give a lot of difficult knowledge and expertise to master. Likewise, watching 25 people be prescribed an antidepressant must give a lot of expertise. Likewise, general medical training is probably unnecessary since psychiatric disease is never from various physiological distress.
If only psychologists could consult with a patient's physician without RxP. But I guess they need prescribing privileges to do that.

Yup, I guess this is the best choice. Enjoy your medical license and higher salary (even though that definitely isn't your main motivation)! :)
 
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I'm going to go ahead and be sarcastic as that's the only thing that seems to stick with the self-interested psychologists on this thread:shifty::

I bet this "national board exam" is complete and highly rigorous. 8-9 or so online classes with not so much as a basic chemistry prerequisite must give a lot of difficult knowledge and expertise to master. Likewise, watching 25 people be prescribed an antidepressant must give a lot of expertise. Likewise, general medical training is probably unnecessary since psychiatric disease is never from various physiological distress.
If only psychologists could consult with a patient's physician without RxP. But I guess they need prescribing privileges to do that.

Yup, I guess this is the best choice. Enjoy your medical license and higher salary (even though that definitely isn't your main motivation)! :)
There is board certification for psychologists already. The rates of board cert is abysmal.
 
There is board certification for psychologists already. The rates of board cert is abysmal.

Until their are teeth, their will be lack of motivation for such things in psychology. I am plenty busy in my both my job and my side work without it.

There are about 2 dozen other priorities in my life at the moment, and none of them are related to work.
 
Until their are teeth, their will be lack of motivation for such things in psychology. I am plenty busy in my both my job and my side work without it.

There are about 2 dozen other priorities in my life at the moment, and none of them are related to work.
teeth? u think physicians don't have better things to do too?
 
:rolleyes:
That's what the np and pas say about you guys
To be fair, your typical NP often acts like 25% politics, 50% customer care and 25% science. Legitimate clinical psychologists (not the ones trying to play physician) are to be much more respected.

RxP, if ever accepted, would make a little bit of money for the field of clinical psychology. But it would also ruin it by taking a field that was once the best in its area (therapy) and make it into a mid-level joke. They've even borrowed the "advanced practice" phrase from the NPs. But strangely, their proposals take it even further with even less medical education/training. But that isn't a useful argument to them because I honestly doubt they care. Might as well change some of those RxP classes to "Law and Society: Shaping Healthcare practice rights" :prof:
 
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To be fair, your typical NP often acts like 25% politics, 50% customer care and 25% science. Legitimate clinical psychologists (not the ones trying to play physician) are to be much more respected.

RxP, if ever accepted, would make a little bit of money for the field of clinical psychology. But it would also going to ruin it by taking a field that was once the best in its area (therapy) and make it into a mid-level joke. They've even borrowed the "advanced practice" phrase from the NPs. But strangely, there proposals take it even further with even less medical education/training. But that isn't a useful argument to them because I honestly doubt they care. Might as well change some of those RxP classes to "Law and Society: Shaping Healthcare practice rights" :prof:

I think there's benefit to shoring up the psychopharm training that's a standard/required part of clinical/counseling psych coursework, but I agree that RxP (particularly as it currently stands) certainly has at least the potential to do what you've said. And that's what I'd be most worried about--increasing the focus on psychotropic prescribing at the expense of training and education in scientific and research methodology, statistics, and psychological theory. It's already been happening in many of the diploma mill schools without RxP, so who knows how far they'd go with RxP. In Illinois, for example, I could basically see those schools becoming akin to a PA program with some tacked-on psychology classes, which (IMO) would not a psychologist make.

On the flip side, I do realistically believe that RxP would essentially immediately give psychologists much more political clout (both in the traditional sense of politics and at most medical centers). Then again, that's clout we could likely gain for ourselves in other ways if we'd get up off our butts and actually support our practice organizations' efforts on that front--and if some of said practice organizations actually focused on issues affecting most psychologists rather than spending so much time and money on RxP.
 
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RxP for psychologists would be fine if we really shore up the eligibility requirements. My personal vote is that you must graduate from an APA accredited program and internship at minimum. Then you can apply for postdoc programs that provide additional training (that should be exclusive rather than inclusive).

I don't think this is going to happen though. We either open the floodgates or keep them shut...
 
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No, my point is that if there needs to be a reasonable amount of medical training involved - not just simplified this-for-this applied pharmacology - what is that? Who is that helpful to other than get-rich-quick psychologists? The "downside" is it would be neither quick nor easy and much fewer psychologists would be able to do it simply because people with affinity for biological/medical approach tend not to self-select into psychology. And the right amount of medical training is almost definitely going to be difficult anyway- far from the "no competition" admissions policy of RxP. Further, they shouldn't be afraid to come under the jurisdiction of the AMA and the related scrutiny, much like PAs have done. At this point, RxP can't be "shored up" with a few add-ons. It has to completely redone under the direction of the existing medical community
 
I think the psyd diploma mill schools in IL will be glad to add the PA requirements to the curriculum...

Just as a technical note here, that might be of interest ... that is highly unlikely. True, several of the stand-alone professional schools were heavily supportive of the RxP effort - and yes, those with the lowest EPPP data in the state were among the staunchest supporters. However, the deal cut between the medical people and the one RxP leader who didn't want to see a 16th year of failure in Illinois almost certainly prohibits it.

The reason is that while the seven required basic undergraduate courses can be taken at any accredited college, the 20 graduate-level courses required must be in a program accredited by the PA accreditation body, ARC-PA. That's not something any professional school can throw together. In practical terms, only universities with an existing PA program would probably be able to put together such a long and specialized program that could be accredited. There is a small number in the state, and they would be unlikely to go out of their way to create such a program that quite possibly will have zero students applying.

This was required so that APA and the RxP activists who have been so very eager to dumb-down the quality and quantity of education for prescribing medications would not be allowed to do so in Illinois. Under the APA RxP model, APA writes the curriculum and "accredits" the schools, whose administrators/founders etc. are politically influential in APA.
 
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Just as a technical note here, that might be of interest ... that is highly unlikely. True, several of the stand-alone professional schools were heavily supportive of the RxP effort - and yes, those with the lowest EPPP data in the state were among the staunchest supporters. However, the deal cut between the medical people and the one RxP leader who didn't want to see a 16th year of failure in Illinois almost certainly prohibits it.

The reason is that while the seven required basic undergraduate courses can be taken at any accredited college, the 20 graduate-level courses required must be in a program accredited by the PA accreditation body, ARC-PA. That's not something any professional school can throw together. In practical terms, only universities with an existing PA program would probably be able to put together such a long and specialized program that could be accredited. There is a small number in the state, and they would be unlikely to go out of their way to create such a program that quite possibly will have zero students applying.

This was required so that APA and the RxP activists who have been so very eager to dumb-down the quality and quantity of education for prescribing medications would not be allowed to do so in Illinois. Under the APA RxP model, APA writes the curriculum and "accredits" the schools, whose administrators/founders etc. are politically influential in APA.
Thanks for the extra jnformation! I was unaware of that.
 
No, my point is that if there needs to be a reasonable amount of medical training involved - not just simplified this-for-this applied pharmacology - what is that? Who is that helpful to other than get-rich-quick psychologists? The "downside" is it would be neither quick nor easy and much fewer psychologists would be able to do it simply because people with affinity for biological/medical approach tend not to self-select into psychology. And the right amount of medical training is almost definitely going to be difficult anyway- far from the "no competition" admissions policy of RxP. Further, they shouldn't be afraid to come under the jurisdiction of the AMA and the related scrutiny.

Not surprisingly, I agree. Education and training are key issues, but still not the only ones. I would also suggest considering some others:
1. These would be the only part-time medical providers I know of. We as professionals know that you get better at something when you do a lot of it. Therefore, that would further reduce the potential quality of service. Considering that prescribing drugs is a complex business with the potential for real harm (one study found that 23 percent of the adverse drug events in nursing homes was from psychoactives) I wonder how many people with a choice would send their loved ones to a part-timer.

2. These would very possibly be medical professionals who practice medicine detached from the rest of the medical system. As persons with substandard education and who are practicing part-time, it would be even more dangerous for them to be prescribing drugs outside a medical setting where consultation and cross checking acts as a safety net. Instead, APA model bills call for completely independent prescribers. As a case in point, in Illinois APN's don't have to have a collaborative agreement with a physician if they are working in a hospital, under the assumption that the context and the natural cross-checking of their work by various medical professional colleagues would help ensure safety.

3. As you touched on, the APA model calls for these persons to be licensed and supervised by psychology boards populated by people with no medical education or training. That of course makes no sense. The primary responsibility of a psychology board is to protect the public ... but they clearly are not qualified to do so in the area of medical practice.

4. Practicum experience called for by these bills is allowed to be supervised by other psychologists, ones with the same low-quality training. Also, as a practical matter, psychologists who are RxP trained mostly tend to be highly partisan and thus may be less likely to provide true quality control and filter out or require remediation of less-competent prescribers. In addition, training systems are designed for cross-checks, so that it would be preferred if aspiring psychologist-prescribers were supervised by medical professionals who are also specialists in prescribing psychoactive medications.

5. The "national exam" that RxP advocates refer to is actually one written by APA for its RxP campaign. The number of conflicts of interest in the RxP campaign is significant, and this is yet another one. APA wrote the exam and decided what the cutoff score is. I for one would be very impressed if RxPers were required to pass the psychiatric board exam.

As a result, following the APA model for RxP, it is possible that a person with no education or training in bio-medical sciences or practice, could be prescribing the same psychoactive medications as a board-certified psychiatrist after:
a. Taking 8.8 semester internet courses from a psychology school
b. Passing an exam written by the organization that spends millions politically lobbying for RxP
c. Being supervised in practicum by yet another psychologist with the same insufficient training
d. Being licensed by psychologists with no medical training on the psychology board

Therefore, they could be prescribing powerful drugs without ever having met or spoken to a physician, nurse or pharmacist, and without ever having stepped foot inside a hospital, clinic or even a classroom. That is how bizarre this campaign is. I mean ... really?

Therefore, while the grossly insufficient internet education called for by the APA model - which is what virtually all RxP bills are based on - is a major reason to oppose these bills, that is only one part of the mess that is the RxP campaign.
 
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No, my point is that if there needs to be a reasonable amount of medical training involved - not just simplified this-for-this applied pharmacology - what is that? Who is that helpful to other than get-rich-quick psychologists? The "downside" is it would be neither quick nor easy and much fewer psychologists would be able to do it simply because people with affinity for biological/medical approach tend not to self-select into psychology. And the right amount of medical training is almost definitely going to be difficult anyway- far from the "no competition" admissions policy of RxP. Further, they shouldn't be afraid to come under the jurisdiction of the AMA and the related scrutiny, much like PAs have done. At this point, RxP can't be "shored up" with a few add-ons. It has to completely redone under the direction of the existing medical community

I don't know that I would agree with this particular point. There are plenty of folks in psychology with a "biological affinity," it's just approached from a different vantage point than that of a physician. I personally don't know of a single practicing psychologist who doesn't appreciate the impact physiological states and medical conditions can have to psychological factors. It's not as though we've somehow never heard of hypo/hyperthyroidism, B12 deficiency, side-effects from medications, etc.
 
I don't know that I would agree with this particular point. There are plenty of folks in psychology with a "biological affinity," it's just approached from a different vantage point than that of a physician. I personally don't know of a single practicing psychologist who doesn't appreciate the impact physiological states and medical conditions can have to psychological factors. It's not as though we've somehow never heard of hypo/hyperthyroidism, B12 deficiency, side-effects from medications, etc.
Yes, but I don't think a psychology PhD can waive much, if any, medical training. But again- this is exactly the kind of educational/training details that should be considered very closely and vetted by America's main medical association. Much like they do with the curriculum of PAs. Otherwise it's an obvious case of "not knowing what you don't know" especially since the example topics you listed can be very basic. Comprehensive, standardized and heavily regulated- like everything else in medicine proper. e.g. the idea that applied vocational training of prescribing psychotropics can safely be an "add-on" zero-formal prerequisite skill or that "3 years of being under a physician" is meaningful informal training (it's not- doing scut work and being an office slave to an opportunist private practice psychiatrist can be a useless experience) is absurd.

RxPers should consider that maybe they don't know what is necessary knowledge and training-wise to practice medicine safely. And if they think the existing mid-level programs are too much work or "under them" as PhDs- then they need to either check their egos and reconsider - or work with the medical community to create a safe & reasonable mid-level program for psychologists.
 
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Yes, but I don't think a psychology PhD can waive much, if any, medical training. But again- this is exactly the kind of educational/training details that should be considered very closely and vetted by America's main medical association. Much like they do with the curriculum of PAs. Otherwise it's an obvious case of "not knowing what you don't know" especially since the example topics you listed can be very basic. Comprehensive, standardized and heavily regulated- like everything else in medicine proper. e.g. the idea that applied vocational training of prescribing psychotropics can safely be an "add-on" zero-formal prerequisite skill or that "3 years of being under a physician" is meaningful informal training (it's not- doing scut work and being an office slave to an opportunist private practice psychiatrist can be a useless experience) is absurd.

RxPers should consider that maybe they don't know what is necessary knowledge and training-wise to practice medicine safely. And if they think the existing mid-level programs are too much work or "under them" as PhDs- then they need to either check their egos and reconsider - or work with the medical community to create a safe & reasonable mid-level program for psychologists.

Well put. My experience has been that those desiring prescribing rights have very little appreciation for what they are seeking. In this forum and elsewhere, I have posed a fair hypothetical of social workers becoming fully qualified as psychologists based on a highly abbreviated online education program ... something we psychologists would find eminently presumptuous, naive, and possibly insulting. And yet the RxP advocates unabashedly maintain the same opinion about the practice of medicine. BTW, I have never encountered a single RxP advocate who would seriously respond to the hypothetical of social workers taking our place in such a way, even though it would make far more sense than psychologists presuming to prescribe drugs.

The RxPers remind me of the research which showed that people who are the least talented or adept at something (e.g. humor, math, etc) grossly overestimate their abilities. Those in the lowest quartile estimated they were around the 65th percentile, and those in the highest quartile underestimated their abilities. Pat DeLeon, who started the RxP political campaign, stated that prescribing drugs was no more difficult than operating a desktop computer. The essence of the RxP campaign is not psychologists prescribing, it's psychologists prescribing based on a very special training program that is grossly inferior to anything ever seen, as well as uniquely risky practice conditions I already mentioned.

The writings of Steven Kingsbury are helpful in this regard. He is a clinical psychologist who then became a board-certified psychiatrist. He writes that it is next to impossible to be current on the psychology literature and to also keep up with developments in psychiatric medicine.

The Illinois law simply makes RxPers get PA training, in both quantity and quality. It is broadly assumed that this will very likely prevent any psychologist from prescribing medications because ... well ... the requirements are reasonable and the same as they are for others.
 
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The PEP exam sample questions are verbatim out of the psychiatry board exam prep materials....

That should tell you about the content of the exam.

But hey, it must be just an easy made up test.
 
The PEP exam sample questions are verbatim out of the psychiatry board exam prep materials....

That should tell you about the content of the exam.

But hey, it must be just an easy made up test.

I'd be interested in your point rather than sarcasm if you wish make one. You aren't addressing whether the PEP has any recognized value according to any authority other than APA. As far as I know it does not.

The test is apparently not based on the psychiatry boards according to an APA article on its development. And of course sharing some prep items doesn't ensure quality.

It is s clear conflict of interest for APA, one of several, to use and promote the exam to further its political mission. And the best evidence for this comes from the RxP activists themselves. I have seen their pitch for RxP more than a hundred times and they never fail to hide this conflict by calling it a "National Exam" without revealing its origins.
 
If the test questions are identical to psychiatry test questions, then there is already recognized value. It is illogical to make a comment about a test, without knowing the content thereof.

It is also illogical to deride anecdotal evidence using anecdotal evidence.


As for your interest in my opinion, I'm sure that is a sentiment we can both agree upon.
 
If the test questions are identical to psychiatry test questions, then there is already recognized value. It is illogical to make a comment about a test, without knowing the content thereof.

It is also illogical to deride anecdotal evidence using anecdotal evidence.


As for your interest in my opinion, I'm sure that is a sentiment we can both agree upon.

I'm not really interested in your opinion, no offense, but I am interested in the possibility of facts being brought to light. You are now saying that the test questions are identical, but you previously said that some prep questions were lifted from the psychiatry board exam prep materials. Surely they are not the same test, according to APA's own description.

As for prep materials, it may also be that there are no prep materials for the PEP so someone somewhere is using the psychiatry boards prep materials. You're not making it clear if that's the case and who is using them. They cannot be the actual psychiatry board prep materials or that would be a copyright violation, unless the actual psychiatry prep manuals are being used. Is that what you're saying? You've seen these materials? You know for a fact that they were the same? This is unclear.
 
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I am likewise uninterested in your opinion.

Feel free to look at the prep materials and see if there is a similarity.
 
One has to be board eligible to take the psychiatry board exam. Meaning proving adequate medical knowledge and training through passing all the USMLE steps and finishing up a closely regulated training period (residency).
If the "PEP exam" was fairly representative of all the USMLE steps + the board exam then (A) your claim would have some credence and (B) the pass rate would be beyond abysmal. If someone actually believed your statements than those psychiatrists must be mighty dumb to study or train for so many years to take the USMLE steps and psychiatry board.
 
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I am likewise uninterested in your opinion.

Feel free to look at the prep materials and see if there is a similarity.

No need to get huffy, now. I never expected you to care about my opinions, although you may care about the facts, as do I. So where are these prep materials for the "PEP" that include questions lifted out of the psychiatric board exam prep materials? I don't take that as much evidence that the PEP is a legitimate examination of competence in prescribing psychoactive drugs, but it would be interesting to know about these matrials, and you are, after all, stating this as a fact.
 
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Similar to my early request of efficacy data in training models already in place, since we are interested in evidence and facts now, is there evidence that the psychiatric board exam adequately measures competence? It seems there is this assumption that the models in place are adequate, simply because they are there. But, that a new model has to demonstrate its efficacy above and beyond what is expected for those that already exist. To that end, what would opponents take as evidence of efficacy and safety? As of now there is a lot of rhetoric about it being "unsafe" with no evidence about the lack of safety where these policies are already in play. So, what about the other side? What exactly would it take to demonstrate that notion? What level of research would make this palatable? And, would everyone be beholden to the same bar?
 
Similar to my early request of efficacy data in training models already in place, since we are interested in evidence and facts now, is there evidence that the psychiatric board exam adequately measures competence? It seems there is this assumption that the models in place are adequate, simply because they are there. But, that a new model has to demonstrate its efficacy above and beyond what is expected for those that already exist. To that end, what would opponents take as evidence of efficacy and safety? As of now there is a lot of rhetoric about it being "unsafe" with no evidence about the lack of safety where these policies are already in play. So, what about the other side? What exactly would it take to demonstrate that notion? What level of research would make this palatable? And, would everyone be beholden to the same bar?

Once again, good luck in your research in answering your questions about the efficacy required of medical training.
It doesn't seem like you're doing much in that regard. Are you needing some ideas? Perhaps you should write the American Psychiatric Association and the Psychiatric APN association as starters.
 
Flippancy aside, it's a valid point. You can brush it aside and just assume it's out there somewhere, but people just can't find it. But, I find it disingenuous that you use it as an argument for the con side, but have absolutely no idea as to its validity in other professions. Otherwise, it comes off as if there is a moving target that will never be satisfactory, as the bar will just keep moving higher. What is your operational definition of efficacy and safety?
 
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Flippancy aside, it's a valid point. You can brush it aside and just assume it's out there somewhere, but people just can't find it. But, I find it disingenuous that you use it as an argument for the con side, but have absolutely no idea as to its validity in other professions. Otherwise, it comes off as if there is a moving target that will never be satisfactory, as the bar will just keep moving higher. What is your operational definition of efficacy and safety?

It's not a point. It's a question. The answer could be interesting, but you're not looking for it.
If you come back and show us that the American Psychiatric Association's spokesperson confirms that there is not a single study anywhere that affirms that psychiatrists are prescribing psychoactive medication safely or effectively, that would be really interesting. Simply wondering on this forum if there is any such study is just that, wondering.
Asking a question and then claiming you have a valid piont because no one runs down the answer for you isn't very persuasive.
 
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You're making an assumption, and a faulty one, to try to shirk responsibility. My point is that your response thus far has been Potter Stewartesque. "RxP doesn't meet efficacy and safety requirements that X does." But you never define the parameters that define efficacy and safety of X other than a "I know it when I see it" mentality.

I personally don't agree with RxP legislation as it stands in most states. But, without some kind of operational definition of what would constitute adequacy, that has been established for prescribing professionals across disciplines, I don't see the opposition with having much to stand on besides turf management. Feel free to brush aside claims of mine having looked for this data as you will.
 
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Similar to my early request of efficacy data in training models already in place, since we are interested in evidence and facts now, is there evidence that the psychiatric board exam adequately measures competence? It seems there is this assumption that the models in place are adequate, simply because they are there. But, that a new model has to demonstrate its efficacy above and beyond what is expected for those that already exist. To that end, what would opponents take as evidence of efficacy and safety? As of now there is a lot of rhetoric about it being "unsafe" with no evidence about the lack of safety where these policies are already in play. So, what about the other side? What exactly would it take to demonstrate that notion? What level of research would make this palatable? And, would everyone be beholden to the same bar?
Are you being serious? Translating the unnecessary academic journal language (we can easily translate it- but we find it pompous and annoying)- are you now arguing that RxP is a beter training "modality" then LCME medical school and ACGME psychiatry residency? p.s. you are somewhat misusing the word "model" (though I'm guessing you just want to sound "fancy")
 
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You're making an assumption, and a faulty one, to try to shirk responsibility. My point is that your response thus far has been Potter Stewartesque. "RxP doesn't meet efficacy and safety requirements that X does." But you never define the parameters that define efficacy and safety of X other than a "I know it when I see it" mentality.

I personally don't agree with RxP legislation as it stands in most states. But, without some kind of operational definition of what would constitute adequacy, that has been established for prescribing professionals across disciplines, I don't see the opposition with having much to stand on besides turf management. Feel free to brush aside claims of mine having looked for this data as you will.
I'm disgusted with the repeated accusations of doctor's protecting their "turf". That is so not the case and you know it. Honestly, if it was up to me, I would decrease psychiatry reimbursements further just to keep unscrupulous people like you from wanting to practice medicine illicitly. But in anycase, there are wide-open mid-level programs for you to engage in to practice medicine already even if you don't want to do all the training necessary to become a physician.
 
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