PsyD/JD career opportunities

[Psychisfun43]

Hi, guys! I am interested in doing a PsyD Program and then either Night School for JD or full time. I was interested if anyone has both degrees and practices. If you do, could you talk about your experiences and job prospects? Thanks!

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[deleted343839]

I've known people with both degrees. Why do you think you need both? Considering the cost of a PsyD program and then law school, I'm afraid the ROI may disappoint you.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

What do you want to....do?

 

[WisNeuro]

What do you want to....do?

You know...stuff...and things.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

I'm considering it, but I'm a bit unsure as to why(other than maybe being masochistic?), or how I would manage to complete it while having two active forms of employment. The owner of my practice has his JD as well and did it part time while working privately and for the state, but what really matters is the ABFP after his degree (and hopefully mine soon...fingers crossed). At best, if you're going to be testifying a lot, it provides a further and detailed view of that world, and maybe further credentials to whoever is crossing you. What I've come to find is that there is so so so so much that I just don't care about in that world though (i.e., taxes, real estate, trusts, etc.), and so much of it is just, so,...boring. However, it would be cool to be able to write up a real legit contract, but you can do that without the JD after your name. One really niche area of practice that I have thought about getting into if I did go that route, would be specializing in board complaints.

 

[psych.meout]

Several universities offer combined Phd-JD programs in clinical psychology and law, including Stanford, Drexel, Penn, and Northwestern, though I think it's Northwestern's program that requires you to have obtain a faculty or academic position after graduation or you have to repay all the tuition costs, stipend, etc.

As others here have asked, what do you want to do with a doctorate in psychology and a JD?

 

[Psychisfun43]

I've known people with both degrees. Why do you think you need both? Considering the cost of a PsyD program and then law school, I'm afraid the ROI may disappoint you.

I have ideas based on market needs and where I am currently living. There is a demand for certain types of practitioners, who can do clinical psych specifically examining the validity of neuro-psych testing in a court of law. If you would like a more detailed explanation I can pm you because you have experience with such individuals. If you could explain more about the ROI and your colleague's experiences, it would be greatly appericated.

 

[Psychisfun43]

I'm considering it, but I'm a bit unsure as to why(other than maybe being masochistic?), or how I would manage to complete it while having two active forms of employment. The owner of my practice has his JD as well and did it part time while working privately and for the state, but what really matters is the ABFP after his degree (and hopefully mine soon...fingers crossed). At best, if you're going to be testifying a lot, it provides a further and detailed view of that world, and maybe further credentials to whoever is crossing you. What I've come to find is that there is so so so so much that I just don't care about in that world though (i.e., taxes, real estate, trusts, etc.), and so much of it is just, so,...boring. However, it would be cool to be able to write up a real legit contract, but you can do that without the JD after your name. One really niche area of practice that I have thought about getting into if I did go that route, would be specializing in board complaints.

I have a similar idea which you are discussing here. I Don't want to do both at the same time because that would be lethal. I am more interested in crossing Forensic Psychologists and Psychiatrists (They usually hire psychologists to do testing for them and get objective information for their cases) they present their findings in court. So my interests are like workers comp/criminal cases/fit for trial etc.

 

[psych.meout]

I have ideas based on market needs and where I am currently living. There is a demand for certain types of practitioners, who can do clinical psych specifically examining the validity of neuro-psych testing in a court of law. If you would like a more detailed explanation I can pm you because you have experience with such individuals. If you could explain more about the ROI and your colleague's experiences, it would be greatly appericated.

But shouldn't any qualified neuropsychologist already be educated in performance and symptom validity and be using it as a part of their daily practice? What would having a JD offer beyond that? What does all that JD program training offer that some kind of workshop, CE, or other lower cost training doesn't?

 

[Psychisfun43]

But shouldn't any qualified neuropsychologist already be educated in performance and symptom validity and be using it as a part of their daily practice? What would having a JD offer beyond that? What does all that JD program training offer that some kind of workshop, CE, or other lower cost training doesn't?

You can't cross-examine them without a law degree because who would even hire you.

 

[WisNeuro]

Sounds like the JD is the OPs primary career. The real question seems, why do you need a doctorate in psychology?

 

[Psychisfun43]

Sounds like the JD is the OPs primary career. The real question seems, why do you need a doctorate in psychology?

No, my end goal would be a pp with half a focus on clinical and the other half on law. You can't do neuro-psych testing and get a lot of experience with it without a PsyD/PhD.

 

[psych.meout]

You can't cross-examine them without a law degree because who would even hire you.

Ok, so you want to be a lawyer. As WisNeuro asked, why do you need a doctorate in clinical psychology?

Why would a full doctorate in psychology be required for you cross-examine psychologists? Isn't there some less expensive and less laborious option to get you the training you would need?

And wouldn't you pretty much need to hire your own expert (i.e. a psychologist) that could review the same neuropsych testing and then rebut it as an expert witness? Why couldn't they also advise you on how to cross the other party's expert witness?

Edit:

No, my end goal would be a pp with half a focus on clinical and the other half on law. You can't do neuro-psych testing and get a lot of experience with it without a PsyD/PhD.

This sounds like a recipe for dual relationships and licensing board/Bar complaints.

 

[Psychisfun43]

Ok, so you want to be a lawyer. As WisNeuro asked, why do you need a doctorate in clinical psychology?

Why would a full doctorate in psychology be required for you cross-examine psychologists? Isn't there some less expensive and less laborious option to get you the training you would need?

And wouldn't you pretty much need to hire your own expert (i.e. a psychologist) that could review the same neuropsych testing and then rebut it as an expert witness? Why couldn't they also advise you on how to cross the other party's expert witness?

Edit:



This sounds like a recipe for dual relationships and licensing board/Bar complaints.

Read above.

 

[WisNeuro]

No, my end goal would be a pp with half a focus on clinical and the other half on law. You can't do neuro-psych testing and get a lot of experience with it without a PsyD/PhD.

That sounds like a position that is rife with possible legal and ethical pitfalls. Multiple relationships and COIs up the wazoo.

 

[Psychisfun43]

That sounds like a position that is rife with possible legal and ethical pitfalls. Multiple relationships and COIs up the wazoo.

Could you elaborate further?

 

[WisNeuro]

Could you elaborate further?

I'd look up dual/multiple relationships, and role of the clinician in different contexts. This is a difficult area for someone who is merely the expert/fact witness/IME evaluator. When you are also providing legal counsel, you compound that exponentially. I'd pick whether or not you want to stay barred or licensed, you'll likely have to choose someday.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

(They usually hire psychologists to do testing for them) when they present Neuro-Psych Testing in court

slightly OT, but this^^^^ don't get me started on the growing irrelevance of forensic psychiatry...

 

[Psychisfun43]

I'd look up dual/multiple relationships, and role of the clinician in different contexts. This is a difficult area for someone who is merely the expert/fact witness/IME evaluator. When you are also providing legal counsel, you compound that exponentially. I'd pick whether or not you want to stay barred or licensed, you'll likely have to choose someday.

I will not obviously testify in my case. I will either play the role as an attorney or an expert, not both. The point of a PsyD/JD is like the M.D/JD which gives individuals a substantially better understanding of their cases. If I am an attorney (which I am most interested in) I will not be my own expert witness, you just can't. Sorry for the lack of clarity. I would just be an attorney which also has a clinical private practice.

 

[WisNeuro]

I will not obviously testify in my case. I will either play the role as an attorney or an expert, not both. The point of a PsyD/JD is like the M.D/JD which gives individuals a substantially better understanding of their cases. If I am an attorney (which I am most interested in) I will not be my own expert witness, you just can't. Sorry for the lack of clarity. I would just be an attorney which also has a clinical private practice.

You then severely limit your ability to accept referrals for either role that you want to serve in.

 

[Psychisfun43]

slightly OT, but this^^^^ don't get me started on the growing irrelevance of forensic psychiatry...

My father is one and has an extremely successful practice. I would say he is doing pretty good

 

[Psychisfun43]

You then severely limit your ability to accept referrals for either role that you want to serve in.

Accept referrals in what regard? For clinical work or law? I would be the attorney crossing the defenses Forensic Psychologist. I can see how this would limit me to be an expert witness.

 

[WisNeuro]

Both.

 

[Psychisfun43]

Both.

How would this limit my potential clinical practice? I would just see clients for treatment and no legal help at all.

Edit: Thank you for your help too. It is making my think critically about my future!

 

[PsyDr]

I have a similar idea which you are discussing here. I Don't want to do both at the same time because that would be lethal. I am more interested in crossing Forensic Psychologists and Psychiatrists (They usually hire psychologists to do testing for them) when they present Neuro-Psych Testing in court. So my interests are like workers comp/criminal cases/fit for trial etc.

Idiots do this. Psychiatrists don't have the qualifications to interpret neuropsych testing and would be easily impeached. Only an idiot or a narcissistic idiot would want to testify about something outside their scope of education or training. It makes no sense for a neuropsychologist to do this, either from a professional or monetary perspective.

My father is one and has an extremely successful practice. I would say he is doing pretty good

So which category is he?

 

[Psychisfun43]

Idiots do this. Psychiatrists don't have the qualifications to interpret neuropsych testing and would be easily impeached. Only an idiot or a narcissistic idiot would want to testify about something outside their scope of education or training. It makes no sense for a neuropsychologist to do this, either from a professional or monetary perspective.



So which category is he?

One that pulls in more than you do in a year and doesn't spend his free time abhorring people on the internet. I never said he testifies on the neuro-psych.

 

[Justanothergrad]

This has all the indicators of a poorly planned out 'career'. The starting debt load (assuming you avoid the ethics issues and can establish this convoluted practice effectively somehow) could easily cripple your efforts to make a living. Besides all that, your plan doesn't make sense. Who would be your client? Why wouldn't you just represent them as a lawyer or work with them in the capacity as a forensic psychologist? Why would you split your time evenly and why do you think both with be equally effective? Be good at one thing, not poor at two.

Sounds like you either don't know what you want to do within the constrains of how the job market works or you know but are trying to ignore it.

 

[Psychisfun43]

This has all the indicators of a poorly planned out 'career'. The starting debt load (assuming you avoid the ethics issues and can establish this convoluted practice effectively somehow) could easily cripple your efforts to make a living. Besides all that, your plan doesn't make sense. Who would be your client? Why wouldn't you just represent them as a lawyer or work with them in the capacity as a forensic psychologist? Why would you split your time evenly and why do you think both with be equally effective? Be good at one thing, not poor at two.

Sounds like you either don't know what you want to do within the constrains of how the job market works or you know but are trying to ignore it.

I think I am talking to the wrong audience here. I found practicing PhD/PsyD & JD individuals on the internet. I will reach out to them specifically. Client's would be a mix of individuals for therapy and separate legal cases. Forensic Psychologists cannot cross-examine forensic psychologists on the stand. As I want to be Forensic Psychologist who can practice law.

 

[PsyDr]

One that pulls in more than you do in a year and doesn't spend his free time abhorring people on the internet. I never said he testifies on the neuro-psych.

 

[psych.meout]

One that pulls in more than you do in a year and doesn't spend his free time abhorring people on the internet. I never said he testifies on the neuro-psych.

I think I am talking to the wrong audience here. I found practicing PhD/PsyD & JD individuals on the internet. I will reach out to them specifically. Client's would be a mix of individuals for therapy and separate legal cases. Forensic Psychologists cannot cross-examine forensic psychologists on the stand. As I want to be Forensic Psychologist who can practice law.

This is what we might call "being resistant to feedback."

You're getting constructive criticism and you have reacted by either not comprehending what you've been told, deflecting, or lashing out. Do you really want advice and constructive criticism or do you just want people to confirm your a priori beliefs, express support, and stifle criticism or misgivings.

If you keep this up, you are not likely to do well during supervision at any stage of clinical training. Go for the JD, not the PsyD or PhD.

 

[deleted343839]

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure no one on this forum pulls in more than @PSYDR. Good luck with your plans.

 

[psych.meout]

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure no one on this forum pulls in more than @PSYDR. Good luck with your plans.

Which is probably the most hilarious part of this whole thread.

 

[PsyDr]

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure no one on this forum pulls in more than @PSYDR. Good luck with your plans.

In his defense, I should not have attacked his family on a personal basis. That was wrong of me.

I do try to balance showing students what is possible for psychologists with avoiding self aggrandizement. Psychologist far smarter than I have much much more potential.

 

[psych.meout]

In his defense, I should not have attacked his family on a personal basis. That was wrong of me.

I do try to balance showing students what is possible for psychologists with avoiding self aggrandizement. Psychologist far smarter than I have much much more potential.

Ok, maybe you could have worded it differently, but your points were still sound. People shouldn't be practicing outside of their scopes of practice, and they certainly shouldn't be testifying outside of their scope of practice in depositions or open court.

OP's comment that his/her father is a forensic psychiatrist demonstrates myriad further issues, including reliance on anecdotes instead of empirical data and research, not using he best evidence-based practices, confirmation bias, confusing prescriptive and descriptive statements, and confusing financial success with ethical practice.

This thread is just another example of many where prospective grad students pretend they are looking for genuine advice and constructive criticism, when they are actually just looking for other people to reassure them that the decision they have already made is sound.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

Based on the totality of what I've viewed in this thread, I think it's safe to say with a reasonable degree of psychological certainty, that you would likely be the quintessential dream witness for an attorney about to put you through cross.

 

[PsyDr]

Ok, maybe you could have worded it differently, but your points were still sound. People shouldn't be practicing outside of their scopes of practice, and they certainly shouldn't be testifying outside of their scope of practice in depositions or open court.

OP's comment that his/her father is a forensic psychiatrist demonstrates myriad further issues, including reliance on anecdotes instead of empirical data and research, not using he best evidence-based practices, confirmation bias, confusing prescriptive and descriptive statements, and confusing financial success with ethical practice.

This thread is just another example of many where prospective grad students pretend they are looking for genuine advice and constructive criticism, when they are actually just looking for other people to reassure them that the decision they have already made is sound.

Pulling back the veil a bit: I have had MANY forensic psychiatrists try to get me to administer neuropsychological testing, interpret findings, explain the findings to them, so that they can testify about my work. I personally view this behavior as someone who is trying to steal money, and esteem from me. I assume that if I do the work, I'll present the findings, and get paid for my time. That they assume a neuropsychologist would go along with another method, to me, shows an assumption of them as top tier in the hierarchy with neuropsychs being along the same esteem as technicians. I am no one's lackey. It is upsetting to me that some neuropsychologists would allow themselves to be put in a lesser position so that someone else can literally profit from their work.

Then again, last time this came across my desk I got in trouble with an attorney for swearing.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Since you have already been criticized from the more forensic minded psychologists, let me pile on from the more clinical side. I find it ludicrous to think that one could be a part-time psychologist and a part-time lawyer. If you are going to be treating patients as a psychologist, then you better be dedicated to it. My patients deserve more than someone who thinks they can just dabble in it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Forensics, much like neuropsych....is *not* something to dabble in or do part-time; I welcome this from the opposing side, but purely for outcome reasons.

 

[LeeS]

PM me I have a JD/Phd dual degree background and will discuss the pros and cons with you privately. For me, it's been a hard but rewarding journey, which has given me amazing employment and learning opportunities I otherwise never would have had with one degree alone. It also has made it easier for me to work in industry and provided me with lots of options especially in today's ever changing employment landscape. I have a unique career, which I am willing to back channel discuss.

 

[LeeS]

PM me I have a JD/Phd dual degree background and will discuss the pros and cons with you privately. For me, it's been a hard but rewarding journey, which has given me amazing employment and learning opportunities I otherwise never would have had with one degree alone. It also has made it easier for me to work in industry and provided me with lots of options especially in today's ever changing employment landscape. I have a unique career, which I am willing to back channel discuss.

I recommend you talk to a lot of JD/PhDs or JD/Psyds before making your final decision. Talking to those who did it before me really helped me understand what I was getting my self into as a dual degree graduate student and the sacrifices and rewards it could entail. We tend to be a multifaceted group working in many different areas not just pigeonholed in practice or law.

 

[LeeS]

I recommend you talk to a lot of JD/PhDs or JD/Psyds before making your final decision. Talking to those who did it before me really helped me understand what I was getting my self into as a dual degree graduate student and the sacrifices and rewards it could entail. We tend to be a multifaceted group working in many different areas not just pigeonholed in practice or law.

I will also add I went to a funded program which significantly covered my phd and most of my law degree costs, I still graduated with more student debt, than i would have if I did not get a law degree, but it was a reasonable amount which I will be able to pay off. The ability to work as a consultant in niche research areas and as an interdisciplinary professional makes it whole lot easier to compete for and gain a variety of jobs (across markets) and negotiate more flexibility, income and career growth. it's a risk getting two degrees and trying to get licenses in both, but it also means you see and solve problems through two viewpoints and have a variety of skills to make meaningful change occur. If you are willing to adjust your personal concept of work life balance because you are passionate about addressing complex psycholegal or systems issues, a jd/phd makes it much easier to pursue diverse training simultaneously and be given the freedom/autonomy to do so. But basically your deciding to be an entrepreneur and going against the grain on day one of graduate school...chances are you are going at it mostly alone and it's not for the faint of heart. Your navigating two pivotal professional networks at the same time. You won't graduate with your entering clinical class because your graduating law school, taking the bar, getting clinical hours and applying for and completing an APA internship and working on your dissertation all around the same time- which is as awful as it seems. Burnout is a real risk to both endeavors. The choice to get a dual degree comes down to individual purpose, drive and long term planning about the value of the degrees for your growth as a professional and an honest assessment of your ability (and family/partners support) to successfully complete the programs and make the decision pay off personally and financially.

 

[Rivi]

Psychisfun,

I am not a forensic psychologist, but I know and have worked with many, and I have completed forensic evaluations in many different settings during graduate school, internship and post-doc.

I think you have the right idea with contacting specific programs and clinicians to discuss this with them. I know of a psychologist who is a practicing lawyer as well. I imagine that this is incredibly time intensive, and I would discuss this with as many people as possible before committing.

Despite the chorus of comments above me, forensic work is something that CAN be done part-time. It is certainly not something you want to be ill prepared for or "dabble" in. I attended a forensic psychology seminar that recommend ONLY doing forensic work part-time to avoid burnout and the "hired gun" effect. As you can see, you will come across many different opinions. : )

Get off the internet and start speaking with PhD/JD programs and practicing clinicians. : P

I wish you all the best in your career decision!

 

[Psychisfun43]

After speaking to multiple Ph.D./PsyD & JD who both have a clinical practice and can take up cases part time; I am leaning to go for it. Spoke to a couple on the phone and asked the same questions. I got actual constructive feedback. Narrowing my goals, prioritizing either the clinical or forensic side, other factors like Cost & Time.

Thanks, guys, for the slander to my father, describing me in a negative light, and the ad hominems. Keep up it chaps, whenever future graduate students ask me should they use SDN for Ph.D./PsyD; The recommendation will be a poor one.

To the people who said constructive feedback thank you for help. It was invaluable. Thank you.

 

[Psychisfun43]

PM me I have a JD/Phd dual degree background and will discuss the pros and cons with you privately. For me, it's been a hard but rewarding journey, which has given me amazing employment and learning opportunities I otherwise never would have had with one degree alone. It also has made it easier for me to work in industry and provided me with lots of options especially in today's ever changing employment landscape. I have a unique career, which I am willing to back channel discuss.

I will. Thank you for allowing me to PM you.

 

[Psychisfun43]

Psychisfun,

I am not a forensic psychologist, but I know and have worked with many, and I have completed forensic evaluations in many different settings during graduate school, internship and post-doc.

I think you have the right idea with contacting specific programs and clinicians to discuss this with them. I know of a psychologist who is a practicing lawyer as well. I imagine that this is incredibly time intensive, and I would discuss this with as many people as possible before committing.

Despite the chorus of comments above me, forensic work is something that CAN be done part-time. It is certainly not something you want to be ill prepared for or "dabble" in. I attended a forensic psychology seminar that recommend ONLY doing forensic work part-time to avoid burnout and the "hired gun" effect. As you can see, you will come across many different opinions. : )

Get off the internet and start speaking with PhD/JD programs and practicing clinicians. : P

I wish you all the best in your career decision!

I was wondering if you can expand on hired gun effect? I can understand how dangerous it could be looking like a hired gun. How do forensic Psychologists/Psychiatrists, market themselves ethically? So does someone advertise themselves without looking like a hired gun to lawyers but you are willing to do your best work objectively and not biased. Do you not know who are you are hired by but only your secretary knows so it is single blind?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

RE: Hired Gun

Step 1: Work for both plaintiffs and defendants.
Step 2: Choose your cases wisely.
Step 3: Always tell the truth.