Pubs....Help..?

[Arjuna]

So, I am going to start at a lab soon, and I know I will be at the bottom of the ladder when I start, so I will probably end up being the spot boy or the cup holder. I wanted to ask you guys how to find a lab where you can do meaningful research without being asked to get the coffee creamer every 15 minutes. In other words, how can I find a lab where they will actually let me do hands on work and possibly get published after two years of work? Lets assume that I know the bare minimums, like how to run a gel, how to use a centrifuge and a micropipette..will they teach me the advanced stuff? I am still in awe of those applicants who have more than one pub yet alone a pub on their hands...where do they get the base knowledge needed to get published.. I mean you need to cross a certain benchmark of understanding to work in a lab, and you need to be very knowledgable to get published....right?? Can someone please enlighten me here...I am soo depressed and anxious.. I must find a meaningful lab and hopefully get published later. Please no haters.

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[scarletgirl777]

So, I am going to start at a lab soon, and I know I will be at the bottom of the ladder when I start, so I will probably end up being the spot boy or the cup holder. I wanted to ask you guys how to find a lab where you can do meaningful research without being asked to get the coffee creamer every 15 minutes. In other words, how can I find a lab where they will actually let me do hands on work and possibly get published after two years of work? Lets assume that I know the bare minimums, like how to run a gel, how to use a centrifuge and a micropipette..will they teach me the advanced stuff? I am still in awe of those applicants who have more than one pub yet alone a pub on their hands...where do they get the base knowledge needed to get published.. I mean you need to cross a certain benchmark of understanding to work in a lab, and you need to be very knowledgable to get published....right?? Can someone please enlighten me here...I am soo depressed and anxious.. I must find a meaningful lab and hopefully get published later. Please no haters.

To be honest, I feel like this is a lot more dependent on the PI. First of all, in no lab should you ever be getting coffee (I hope this was a joke). And since you already know the basics, you are more useful than the average undergrad. Find a lab with really interesting research, and then have a meeting with the PI where you explain that you are serious about research and he tells you what he hopes to get from you. The earlier you start this in your undergrad career, the better, because the longer you can spend in the lab, the more excited the PI will be to take you on. In the context of the conversation, the PI will hopefully mention that any undergrad who comes into the lab and does substantive work on a project that gets published will be an author...if he doesn't say that, then you could try talking to other undergrads who worked there and see what their experience is. Regardless, you should be talking to other undergrads who worked there to find out what kind of boss he is...there are a lot of horror stories and you do not want to be part of the next one.

Also, in the case where you are not the first author, it is even more dependent on others because your success will depend on how many projects your PI or post-doc is capable of doing, and how successful he is. I feel like people who get published as first authors (meaning they directed the entire project) are just more capable of problem solving. Once you've taken intro molecular bio or genetics and you've managed to educate yourself about whatever pathway you're studying, getting published as a first author is all about whether or not you are good problem solver and how hard you work at your research.

 

[RoadRunner17]

You gotta work your way up... and be sure the PI is willing to throw you a bone.

 

[Arjuna]

To be honest, I feel like this is a lot more dependent on the PI. First of all, in no lab should you ever be getting coffee (I hope this was a joke). And since you already know the basics, you are more useful than the average undergrad. Find a lab with really interesting research, and then have a meeting with the PI where you explain that you are serious about research and he tells you what he hopes to get from you. The earlier you start this in your undergrad career, the better, because the longer you can spend in the lab, the more excited the PI will be to take you on. In the context of the conversation, the PI will hopefully mention that any undergrad who comes into the lab and does substantive work on a project that gets published will be an author...if he doesn't say that, then you could try talking to other undergrads who worked there and see what their experience is. Regardless, you should be talking to other undergrads who worked there to find out what kind of boss he is...there are a lot of horror stories and you do not want to be part of the next one.

Also, in the case where you are not the first author, it is even more dependent on others because your success will depend on how many projects your PI or post-doc is capable of doing, and how successful he is. I feel like people who get published as first authors (meaning they directed the entire project) are just more capable of problem solving. Once you've taken intro molecular bio or genetics and you've managed to educate yourself about whatever pathway you're studying, getting published as a first author is all about whether or not you are good problem solver and how hard you work at your research.

Thank you for your response. Looks like I will have to wait a bit before moving up the ladder, so I will work hard in the meantime.

 

[Jolie South]

even if you know how to do some basics, there's going to be other stuff that you're not going to be familiar with and have to learn.

what you do is dependent on the PI, but it is also dependent on your performance. if you show that you're a hard worker and are willing to learn, you will probably be given more responsibilities and a greater role in the project. if you go in as someone looking for a pub to add to your app and not necessarily research skills, then i think that's going to show.

 

[kami333]

Thank you for your response. Looks like I will have to wait a bit before moving up the ladder, so I will work hard in the meantime.

Too many premeds I've seen come and go in our lab have the mentality of "I have no research experience but I know I'm smarter than all other premeds so I can join/design a project and have it published in 3months so I can be done with research" mentality. Personally, I'm not going to let you work on one of the projects until I know that you can do things consistently and carefully, otherwise the rest of us can't trust your results.

 

[Jolie South]

Too many premeds I've seen come and go in our lab have the mentality of "I have no research experience but I know I'm smarter than all other premeds so I can join/design a project and have it published in 3months so I can be done with research" mentality. Personally, I'm not going to let you work on one of the projects until I know that you can do things consistently and carefully, otherwise the rest of us can't trust your results.

too many people have the entitlement mentality. what happened to working your way up?

 

[Endee]

I've never heard of people who go to work in labs and just do scutwork. I started in my former lab as a sophomore after only taking Biology I and within a few months I learned all of the techniques I needed, gel electrophoresis, PCR, DNA extraction, cloning, sequence analysis, etc. The PI gave me an independent project from the get-go. I worked in that lab until graduating last month, and I'm about to start writing a manuscript for all of the research I did in the last couple years.

I'm now in a masters program and my new boss started training me right away in techniques that I didn't know (Westerns, ELISA, vector construction).


In my experience, everyone is and should be willing to train and teach new students who are looking to do research. However, most people who are working in the lab can tell very quickly who is really into it and who is just there for a line on their resume. If youre going into it for the latter, don't even bother wasting our time teaching you everything.

 

[SAvoodoo]

just walk in and order a beer. i usually get a Guinness but that's kind of heavy for most people. if you're under 21 then don't, cause that's illegal.
other than that i'm not sure how to help.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Too many premeds I've seen come and go in our lab have the mentality of "I have no research experience but I know I'm smarter than all other premeds so I can join/design a project and have it published in 3months so I can be done with research" mentality. Personally, I'm not going to let you work on one of the projects until I know that you can do things consistently and carefully, otherwise the rest of us can't trust your results.

While some PI's are horrible in stringing along premeds with promises of their own project, I think it's equally horrible for premeds to come into a lab demanding a pub for their 2 months of work. The fact is, if you're doing basic science and you are still in college, you are probably not going to do enough work to justify a pub. Don't expect publications from working 10 hours/week. An abstract or a poster presentation, in my opinion, are much closer to what most premed research assistants deserve.

 

[shiftingmirage]

Obviously find a lab that does stuff that you are interested in, but I would argue the most important thing is jiving with your PI and fellow lab mates. If everyone gets along, you'll have fun, if not....you might not like going to work.

To avoid being the coffee boy, I suggest finding a small lab. My lab consists of me and my PI, so I bascially do everything and she's there to answer questions when they arise. Granted my school doesn't have a large chemistry program and only offers a BS/MS so PIs don't have PhD students to do their bidding, no one here is the coffee boy. My first day in the lab I started working up samples, not washing dishes. Are other schools the same or are you destined to be the dish washer as an undergrad?

 

[Arjuna]

just walk in and order a beer. i usually get a Guinness but that's kind of heavy for most people. if you're under 21 then don't, cause that's illegal.
other than that i'm not sure how to help.

By the looks of this post, I would say that your Blood Alcohol content is waay over the legal limit. Vomit, rinse and repeat until symptoms disappear for good. To all others, thank you SO much for your responses. The thing is, I have been working at a lab in my high school years, started as a clerical assistant, worked up to filling in data in a computer, and now in undergrad I am about to apply as an interested wet lab intern. So,since I was never offered a chance to do hands on work in my clerical and data filling in positions (despite some of my lucky classmates who got in through an intership program, pissed me off BIG time) even after I spent a good chunk of time in both positions ( three years in total), I am kind of discouraged at this point. Looks like I will have to pester any and all researchers out there for some kind of hands on work. Lets get one thing straight: I am not doing this for my resume. I am genuinely interested in this kind of thing and I want to get my hands wet before the next person in line. Hahah. Sounds kinda wrong, like a wedgie. A BIG wedgie. Hahah

 

[Sillyshoes]

Too many premeds I've seen come and go in our lab have the mentality of "I have no research experience but I know I'm smarter than all other premeds so I can join/design a project and have it published in 3months so I can be done with research" mentality. Personally, I'm not going to let you work on one of the projects until I know that you can do things consistently and carefully, otherwise the rest of us can't trust your results.

Many do not realize how it is really hard to publish.
Many premeds need to realize that sometimes working on a project for years might not even result in a publication.

 

[Endee]

Many do not realize how it is really hard to publish.
Many premeds need to realize that sometimes working on a project for years might not even result in a publication.

I've been working on one project for almost two and a half years and I'm only just now seeing the amount and quality of data that is good enough to even start thinking about publication. Granted, a good year of that time was extremely inefficiently used due to training and becoming proficient at science, but nevertheless, I agree, it takes a long time.

 

[HIVdoc2b]

Many do not realize how it is really hard to publish.
Many premeds need to realize that sometimes working on a project for years might not even result in a publication.

Agreed. I've been doing research six years, two full time as a research scientist and 4 years about 30hrs/week as an undergrad, designing and carrying out my own project. It's not headed towards publication at a rate that will get it submitted before I graduate med school (not accepted yet). I finally got my name on a paper for a different project, accepted three months ago. I'm buried in the middle of the author list. The bench work on that project was finished three years ago.

Publishing is tough. Gathering enough data to publish is a lot of work, analyzing it takes time, and finding something significant enough to publish is as much luck as anything else. Don't walk into your undergrad research job and expect to publish. It happens, but it's definitely not as common as some SDN'ers would make it sound. If you get to present a poster at a national conference, you should be very happy.

As for finding a lab where you have a chance at publishing... ask around. Talk to undergrads in labs and find out if their PIs let them to real work or just scut (you'll probably have to do SOME scut no matter where you end up). Look at author lists - see if PIs list their techs. If they don't list techs, they're less likely to list undergrads. Smaller labs are often better places to get to do real research, but the flip side is that they often have less funding and take more time to get their results published.

Whatever lab you end up in, work hard, be thorough and enthusiastic, pay attention, and learn all you can. Publishing is not the end-all, be-all, at this point in your life.

 

[sushichopstickz]

I don't think you should start working in a lab with the mentality that you will get published. Getting a publication is hard and time-consuming effort. I think the biggest thing for a starting undergraduate researcher is to find a project that you enjoy and a PI that is personable and easy to work with. I've worked in the same lab for three years and it took me 1 1/2 years for the PI to give me an independent project. I was fortunate enough to get a publication out of it, but it was not my goal when I joined the lab. My goal was to explore research medicine. In the end, I think I got something much more. I established lasting friendship with my co-workers, PI, and the administrative staffs. In the end, it will be these people who will voucher for you not a piece of paper(s) in a magazine.

 

[metalgearHMN]

Lots of good advice in this thread. I can't believe how naive I used to be when it came to publications. I thought I would just join a lab and publish with in a year.

It's very hard to publish and you need to find something that is actually worth it.

 

[Sillyshoes]

I don't think you should start working in a lab with the mentality that you will get published. Getting a publication is hard and time-consuming effort. I think the biggest thing for a starting undergraduate researcher is to find a project that you enjoy and a PI that is personable and easy to work with. I've worked in the same lab for three years and it took me 1 1/2 years for the PI to give me an independent project. I was fortunate enough to get a publication out of it, but it was not my goal when I joined the lab. My goal was to explore research medicine. In the end, I think I got something much more. I established lasting friendship with my co-workers, PI, and the administrative staffs. In the end, it will be these people who will voucher for you not a piece of paper(s) in a magazine.

Definitely!
Especially working with them for a few years, they can write fantastic recs. Their letters tend to be more on a personal, yet professional level at the same time.

 

[Arjuna]

I don't think you should start working in a lab with the mentality that you will get published. Getting a publication is hard and time-consuming effort. I think the biggest thing for a starting undergraduate researcher is to find a project that you enjoy and a PI that is personable and easy to work with. I've worked in the same lab for three years and it took me 1 1/2 years for the PI to give me an independent project. I was fortunate enough to get a publication out of it, but it was not my goal when I joined the lab. My goal was to explore research medicine. In the end, I think I got something much more. I established lasting friendship with my co-workers, PI, and the administrative staffs. In the end, it will be these people who will voucher for you not a piece of paper(s) in a magazine.

So should I just scrap the lab joining idea and join an internship program at my undergrad in order to get a shot at doing actual research?

 

[Arjuna]

So should I just scrap the lab joining idea and join an internship program at my undergrad in order to get a shot at doing actual research?

Bumpa loompa.

 

[serikk85]

The problem with just doing internships is that they're just too short a time scale to get a "real" research experience. If you're really committed to having a strong research background then stick with one lab during your undergraduate years (assuming it's a good fit, of course). Just to give you an idea of the timescale involved, I've been working 25 hours a week in my lab for two years and just got my first publication accepted last week.

 

[koopa_troopa]

I don't think getting published should be too high on your priority list. I would try to find a lab where you can do your own independent work (and get your hands dirty with real reserach). If you are really involved, you will have lots to write on your application and stuff to talk about in your interview. Also if you build a strong relationship with your PI, you can get a good recommendation letter.

 

[Arjuna]

The problem with just doing internships is that they're just too short a time scale to get a "real" research experience. If you're really committed to having a strong research background then stick with one lab during your undergraduate years (assuming it's a good fit, of course). Just to give you an idea of the timescale involved, I've been working 25 hours a week in my lab for two years and just got my first publication accepted last week.

At least you got published!! Congratulations! Once your admits are in, would you mind sending me a link to your abstract? I need inspiration!! Hhaah. And killer app! Just do well on the MCATs and you should get in everywhere. As for research, I will definitely use the advice in this forum.

 

[Arjuna]

Insights.....?