Pulmonary Aneurysms and Chest Pain

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Sunfire

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I'm being attacked by a trolling Resident and need some help.

I explained that I had been in the ER for chest pain a few weeks ago, and that when I asked the MD if pulmonary aneurysms present with chest pain, his answer was, "not in my experience, no."

Can someone please be kind enough to provide me with some back-up by confirming...is that the case or was he incorrect?

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(edit: apart from an aneurysm in a pulmonary vessel)

Right, that's exactly what I meant. Any answer?

edited: I can't find any type of reference in Lange 2008. I would have looked first thing when I got back from the hospital, but I believed what I had been told. I don't see anything on aneurysms in pulmonary-region vasculature.
 
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Then my Good Doctor was correct. Thank you. My next question would be why not, when aortic and triple-a aneurysms can present with pain, but I think I might be asking too many questions here and can wait until advanced anatomy starts in a few more weeks.
 
Then my Good Doctor was correct. Thank you. My next question would be why not, when aortic and triple-a aneurysms can present with pain, but I think I might be asking too many questions here and can wait until advanced anatomy starts in a few more weeks.

the aneurysm itself does not hurt.

its the active dissection of the aneurysm that causes the pain.
 
Then my Good Doctor was correct. Thank you. My next question would be why not, when aortic and triple-a aneurysms can present with pain, but I think I might be asking too many questions here and can wait until advanced anatomy starts in a few more weeks.

1) I have started to look up your other threads and don't you start quoting me like you quote the doctors you talk to: out of context and without permission.

2) As I said before, if the vessel was tearing. Aneurysms of all types are generally asymptomatic. Some abdominal aneurysms press on other structures causing pain.

3) You dig yourself into large holes and then don't have the knowledge to pull yourself out. Start by studying and learning. You will often find that doctors will give very nuanced answer to question that will depend very heavily on every part of what is presented. Leaving out or changing a small part of the context can radically alter the answer.
 
the aneurysm itself does not hurt.

its the active dissection of the aneurysm that causes the pain.

I had thought as much, and am thankful for that clarification. So then, I guess the only real way to know presence of aneurysm (before dissection) is through appropriate scans, or as BADMD states, if pressure is exerted onto another structure, in a possible case of an AAA.

BADMD,
1. I would never intentionally quote anyone out of context. As for the Doctor I had quoted in my gunshot paper, I have edited their name out. I had originally done so, and should have left it as it was. They were happy to share their expertise with me when I wrote the paper, but you're right, permission should come with public display.

2. I hope you don't mind, I changed my words to yours, quoted, in the thread you're referring to. Getting the information correct was/is my main goal. I would think that even if there was a significant aneurysm in pulmonary-region vessels, to where pressure was exerting on a near structure, that the pain or discomfort wouldn't be temporary (although I suppose it could be intermittent, to some degree, depending on position, but it would probably not just 'go away'). Then again, I believe according to your words, that doesn't really happen too often in that area (maybe if at all).

3. I acknowledge that and will continue to study and learn to the best of my abilities. I've always been one to skip through the algebra on my way to the calculus, and going over all points will be one of my greater challenges in beginning my practice of clinical assessment. I was reminded in watching a new PT working with one of my patients yesterday, he was showing him how to properly transfer from his bed into his power chair (scooting down the bed and then simply sliding over into the chair). It would never have occurred to me that he would transfer any other way (I'm not there when he wakes or retires), and it was a good reminder to never assume any details.

Thanks for the information and advice.
 
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As an aside....I saw a pulmonary artery aneurysm several months ago. It was seen on a CTA of the chest to r/o PE (actually an incredible call by the radiology resident). The pt presented w/ CP and acute onset of severe SOB (classic pulmonary embolus). Did a little further looking into this w/ the help of the rads resident and indeed, this is a true pathologic dx. The radiology resident basically called it like he saw it, and literally his read was: "flap in pulmonary artery, c/w dissection, unsure if pulm. a. dissection is a recognized radiologic diagnosis." It is associated w/ severe pulm hypertension (which this pt carried a dx of pulm HTN) and has a very, very high mortality. Supposedly, there have only been 10 - 20 dx cases recorded, w/ 90% mortality. Definantly a zebra....but real none the less.
 
It seems to me that this thread is borderline "asking for medical advice."
 
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Haha...that explains so much. thanks Tired.

Did I tune out for a very important "thoracic pathology" lecture, or has NO ONE ELSE ever heard of a pulmonary aneurysm before either?

I think I just gave myself a pulmonary aneurysm by reading through some of this guy's posts :thumbdown:
 
As an aside....I saw a pulmonary artery aneurysm several months ago. It was seen on a CTA of the chest to r/o PE (actually an incredible call by the radiology resident). The pt presented w/ CP and acute onset of severe SOB (classic pulmonary embolus). Did a little further looking into this w/ the help of the rads resident and indeed, this is a true pathologic dx. The radiology resident basically called it like he saw it, and literally his read was: "flap in pulmonary artery, c/w dissection, unsure if pulm. a. dissection is a recognized radiologic diagnosis." It is associated w/ severe pulm hypertension (which this pt carried a dx of pulm HTN) and has a very, very high mortality. Supposedly, there have only been 10 - 20 dx cases recorded, w/ 90% mortality. Definantly a zebra....but real none the less.

Procedure, treatment, outcome? I'm thinking we know the answer to the last part, but I'm hoping we don't.
 
Haha...that explains so much. thanks Tired.

Did I tune out for a very important "thoracic pathology" lecture, or has NO ONE ELSE ever heard of a pulmonary aneurysm before either?

I definitely had NOT heard of it before, and never as a consideration on the differential for CP. I guess you can develop an aneurysm anywhere, but less likely in the low pressure pulmonary circuit.
 
The outcome, at least in the short term, was eventual d/c from the hospital after a lengthy MICU stay. Vascular and CT surgery were consulted, but neither service felt the odds of her surviving what was basically an experimental procedure justified the operation. She had tons of imaging (MRI, MRA, angio) to confirm the dx, which in the end was indeed accurate. Her d/c tx was under the care of pulm and cards and involved very aggressive medical tx (which greatly improved her sx) of her pulm HTN. The felt that possibly her dissection could remain stable if her pulm HTN was relatively controlled. It was a pretty cool case, something I have been meaning to write up for a while (some place other then on SDN).

I was re-reading my above post...I am post call...I should have said pulm a. dissection, not aneurysm. My bad.
 

The plural of "anecdote" is not "fact." Just because you can find 10 case reports, most associated with other uncommon (Behcet's) or other more important diseases (pulm vasculitis) does not make it an important item for my diff dx. Not to mention that it seems there are no guidelines for evaluating a patient for this condition.

Also, I have to say that in my 3 years of medical school, "pulmonary aneurysm" was not discussed ONCE. Not even on my medicine rotation. It's not that I don't think it exists - any vessel can develop an aneurysm - it's that I don't think it's an important contribution to my daily evaluation of patients. If I miss ONE diagnosis of pulm aneurysm in my career, I'm ok with that, as long as I don't miss the 100 cases of PE, 1000 MIs, and 10 aortic dissections I'll see in that time.
 
The work up of a pulmonary aneurysm is a non-issue, since it is a zebra readily identified by the conventional tests are used to work up chest pain (CT angiogram). If you needed to order some crazy serum level in order to diagnose it that can only be done by a lab in Zurich, and might be more exciting.
 
Just because you can find 10 case reports, most associated with other uncommon (Behcet's) or other more important diseases (pulm vasculitis) does not make it an important item for my diff dx. Not to mention that it seems there are no guidelines for evaluating a patient for this condition.

Also, I have to say that in my 3 years of medical school, "pulmonary aneurysm" was not discussed ONCE. Not even on my medicine rotation. It's not that I don't think it exists - any vessel can develop an aneurysm - it's that I don't think it's an important contribution to my daily evaluation of patients. If I miss ONE diagnosis of pulm aneurysm in my career, I'm ok with that, as long as I don't miss the 100 cases of PE, 1000 MIs, and 10 aortic dissections I'll see in that time.

Agreed. Still, good to know...don't miss that one ;)
 
The work up of a pulmonary aneurysm is a non-issue, since it is a zebra readily identified by the conventional tests are used to work up chest pain (CT angiogram). If you needed to order some crazy serum level in order to diagnose it that can only be done by a lab in Zurich, and might be more exciting.
Stat transfer to Zurich? I'm in! Don't forget your snowboard.
 
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