Question about list of potential PsyD programs

[elprez33]

Hello all,

I do appreciate reading all the topics of discussion on the PhD/PsyD forum here on SDN, and appreciate the insight shared with me by those who have posted on threads that I have created.

Firstly, I do understand that a PsyD is the more expensive option of becoming a psychologist and am perfectly fine with that. It's not that I am against a PhD program, it's just that the practitioner-scholar model rings true for what I believe and what I want out of my graduate education.

Secondly, I have read the more recent threads about psychologists being reimbursed at the same rate as Masters-level clinicians. Forgoing a MSW or Masters in Counseling is perfectly fine by me, even though I find the lack of respect for psychologists to be abhorrent and will be doing anything I can to help advocate for a positive change to the current policies on mental health.

Lastly, this list has been complied after stressing over many details pertaining to the certain programs. I have taken into account APA internship placement rates, tuition, length of program, licensing rates and minute details which apply to my family's ultimate decision to attend a program and move.

I am seeking anything which may help me in narrowing down this list to the "best" that I can apply to. Best is a subjective term and I seek both opinions and facts. For your information the future populations which I desire to serve are:

-military personnel (current and/or former)

-college students

-young adult to adult populations seeking help with grief/anxiety/PTSD/career and life
goals/general help for non severe psychopathologies (i.e. schizophrenia)

-sexual issues

-couples of both heterosexual and homosexual orientation

-domestic violence

-working in a government position as either a practitioner or a consultant.

-leaving the country to work in Canada/New Zealand/Australia/UK in any of the aforementioned areas


This all being said, thank for reading this (it has been helpful to finally put all this down in writing) and I look forward to your advice/counsel/opinions:

PsyD programs (ranked in order of preference):
-Baylor University
-Rutgers University
-Widener University (with possibly enrolling in their sexuality program)
-Wright State University
-University of Hartford
-Indiana University of PA
-Indiana State University
-Florida Institute of Technology

I plan on applying to all of them, is that overkill and should I apply to only a select few from this list? I also (on a whim and also because one professor specializes in domestic violence research) will be applying to the University of Oregon Counseling PhD program.

Thank you again, I know that this was a long read and I am deeply grateful for your time.

-elprez33

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[MCParent]

Firstly, I do understand that a PsyD is the more expensive option of becoming a psychologist and am perfectly fine with that. It's not that I am against a PhD program, it's just that the practitioner-scholar model rings true for what I believe and what I want out of my graduate education.

Given that your top two choices are high-quality, funded PsyD programs that involve doing research, I'm wondering about what you're seeing the pci-prac model as representing. In my opinion, those two programs are much closer in their program implementation to a normal balanced PhD program than to the modal PsyD program, so I'd think if those were your two top choices (and you are competitive for them) that you'd be able to find many funded PhDs that would also match your interests, both in terms of populations and program models.

 

[cara susanna]

Do you have any research interests? Domestic violence, it sounds like? I agree with MCParent that there are a lot of balanced PhD programs out there that would fit your interests.

 

[docma]

Oregon Counseling Psych Ph.D. program is strong and funding is more likely than in many Psy.D. programs

 

[erg923]

Why do people always jump to clinical psyd programs in cases like this? My local university counseling psych program pretty much only produces practitioners. I can't imagine it's an anomaly or anything. Great trading, less debt and no stigma. I don't get it...

 

[elprez33]

Given that your top two choices are high-quality, funded PsyD programs that involve doing research, I'm wondering about what you're seeing the pci-prac model as representing. In my opinion, those two programs are much closer in their program implementation to a normal balanced PhD program than to the modal PsyD program, so I'd think if those were your two top choices (and you are competitive for them) that you'd be able to find many funded PhDs that would also match your interests, both in terms of populations and program models.

@MCParent: I do enjoy research, just from what I have read and in discussions with some psychologists the PsyD just sounds more up my alley. I am also a bit concerned about the admission rates for Clinical/Counseling PhD programs. Honestly they are quite intimidating. Maybe it is that anxiety about not getting admitted into a PhD program that helps draw me towards the more forgiving admission rates of various PsyD programs (with the exception of Baylor and Rutgers).

 

[elprez33]

Do you have any research interests? Domestic violence, it sounds like? I agree with MCParent that there are a lot of balanced PhD programs out there that would fit your interests.

@cara susanna: My current research interests (as they are changing and refining day by day) involve PTSD treatment, political psychology, domestic violence treatment, and aspects of I/O psychology. Those are general topics, but I just need to expose myself to more research and find out what I am really passionate about.

 

[elprez33]

Oregon Counseling Psych Ph.D. program is strong and funding is more likely than in many Psy.D. programs

@docma: U of Oregon's program is a dream program for me (location, program orientation) and yes the funding for doctorate students is quite the draw.

 

[elprez33]

Why do people always jump to clinical psyd programs in cases like this? My local university counseling psych program pretty much only produces practitioners. I can't imagine it's an anomaly or anything. Great trading, less debt and no stigma. I don't get it...

@erg923: I guess my reasons for jumping to a PsyD over a PhD are as I have mentioned before: aligns better with my career goals, strong clinical focus, and my lack of confidence in my chances of being admitted to a PhD program. I would be very excited to be admitted to a Counseling/Clinical PhD program, I just feel like I wouldn't have what it takes.

I'll have a solid GPA (3.9), and will be taking the GRE this spring. I have experience as a RA for two different faculty research projects, have been a TA for a couple of undergrad psych courses, and will be conducting my own psychology research during my senior year. Am I up to snuff? I know this question belongs in the WAMC thread, but frankly from what I have read on this forum erg923 your opinions and insights I hold in high regard..

 

[elprez33]

Another question for all, if my chances were good for getting into a PhD program, about how many should I apply to? There are a few in the geographical area that I am drawn to (for various reasons).

 

[erg923]

@erg923: I guess my reasons for jumping to a PsyD over a PhD are as I have mentioned before: aligns better with my career goals, strong clinical focus, and my lack of confidence in my chances of being admitted to a PhD program. I would be very excited to be admitted to a Counseling/Clinical PhD program, I just feel like I wouldn't have what it takes.

I'll have a solid GPA (3.9), and will be taking the GRE this spring. I have experience as a RA for two different faculty research projects, have been a TA for a couple of undergrad psych courses, and will be conducting my own psychology research during my senior year. Am I up to snuff? I know this question belongs in the WAMC thread, but frankly from what I have read on this forum erg923 your opinions and insights I hold in high regard..

what is your career goal(s) and are ph,ds in counseling psychology excluded from it? I am really at a loss to think of jobs that exclude counseling psych? Maybe certain npsych post-doc sites? But frankly, the training is so similar in most respects, most jobs posts ask for a psychologist. Period. You do realize it all the same license, right? After that, few will ask, and few will probably care so long as you are able to do your job well.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Another question for all, if my chances were good for getting into a PhD program, about how many should I apply to? There are a few in the geographical area that I am drawn to (for various reasons).

The advice I see most commonly (and that I followed myself) is to apply to somewhere around 10-15 sites. I think my own list topped out at 12, if I'm remembering correctly.

 

[elprez33]

The advice I see most commonly (and that I followed myself) is to apply to somewhere around 10-15 sites. I think my own list topped out at 12, if I'm remembering correctly.

Just as a benchmark, may I ask what your application strength looked like? GPA, GRE, research/teaching experience? And how many of those programs did you get accepted into?

 

[elprez33]

accidental repost...

 

[elprez33]

what is your career goal(s) and are ph,ds in counseling psychology excluded from it? I am really at a loss to think of jobs that exclude counseling psych? Maybe certain npsych post-doc sites? But frankly, the training is so similar in most respects, most jobs posts ask for a psychologist. Period. You do realize it all the same license, right? After that, few will ask, and few will probably care so long as you are able to do your job well.

My ideal career paths would bet:

-Work in the military/VA/USPHS/government as a psychologist

-Work for a university counseling center

-Work in a private practice/small group of mental health professionals (with maybe a small PP on the side during weekends). I would want to work with depression, anxiety, grief, PTSD, vocational/career psychology, marriage/family therapy, domestic violence intervention (for both victims and abuser).

-Teach as an adjunct (not really interested in doing extensive research as a tenure track professor, but I really enjoy teaching)

-Consult, administer/analyze assessments

-Possibly live and work outside of the US


From what I understand about Counseling PhDs is that they are not much different from Clinical PhD/PsyD but focus more on less severe psychopathologies. I just see that their acceptance rates are also VERY low.

Most of these career goals I also know could be reached by having a LCSW. And I was going to become a social worker for the longest time. But I want plenty of in-depth training in therapies, theories, and interventions and also want to be trained in assessments, which I know psychologists are trained to do.

 

[erg923]

My ideal career paths would bet:

-Work in the military/VA/USPHS/government as a psychologist

-Work for a university counseling center

-Work in a private practice/small group of mental health professionals (with maybe a small PP on the side during weekends). I would want to work with depression, anxiety, grief, PTSD, vocational/career psychology, marriage/family therapy, domestic violence intervention (for both victims and abuser).

-Teach as an adjunct (not really interested in doing extensive research as a tenure track professor, but I really enjoy teaching)

-Consult, administer/analyze assessments

-Possibly live and work outside of the US


From what I understand about Counseling PhDs is that they are not much different from Clinical PhD/PsyD but focus more on less severe psychopathologies. I just see that their acceptance rates are also VERY low.

Most of these career goals I also know could be reached by having a LCSW. And I was going to become a social worker for the longest time. But I want plenty of in-depth training in therapies, theories, and interventions and also want to be trained in assessments, which I know psychologists are trained to do.

Ok, so you dont really have one. Thats basically a laundry list.

I still say save the money and the bias and go to a counseling psych ph.d. Like I said, the large state U in my city has one and the grads are primary practitioners and work everywhere from prisons, to hospitals, to managed care companies.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Ok, so you dont really have one. Thats basically a laundry list.

I still say save the money and the bias and go to a counseling psych ph.d. Like I said, the large state U in my city has one and the grads are primary practitioners and work everywhere from prisons, to hospitals, to managed care companies.

I agree in that all of those potential career paths are compatible with either a counseling or clinical psych Ph.D.

To answer the earlier question, my application wasn't anything particularly special--3.5-ish GPA, mid-1300 GRE, and a couple years' worth of research experience (no presentations or posters). Of the programs to which I applied, I was wait-listed at a couple, and ultimately accepted into one.

 

[MCParent]

I'll have a solid GPA (3.9), and will be taking the GRE this spring. I have experience as a RA for two different faculty research projects, have been a TA for a couple of undergrad psych courses, and will be conducting my own psychology research during my senior year. Am I up to snuff? I know this question belongs in the WAMC thread, but frankly from what I have read on this forum erg923 your opinions and insights I hold in high regard..

If I were you, I'd apply to funded, balanced counseling and clinical psych PhDs. Probably you'll not be the year's most sought-after applicant and you won't be getting into U Minnesota, but you're probably a good applicant. If you're still wanting to apply to your list that's fine, but I'd consider some of the many good, balanced, funded programs out there. Given your interests, look for programs that have pracs at a VA and a student counseling center, and have a good assessment program; then doors are open for your various options.

HOWEVER, I'm aware of some counseling psych people who have had trouble navigating going to other countries where the degree is not common (Australia being one of them), though I heard that years and years ago. At the same time, I think the same is probably true for PsyDs (which also tend not to be offered abroad and probably run into the same problem of some people not knowing what it is).

 

[MCParent]

@MCParent: I do enjoy research, just from what I have read and in discussions with some psychologists the PsyD just sounds more up my alley. I am also a bit concerned about the admission rates for Clinical/Counseling PhD programs. Honestly they are quite intimidating. Maybe it is that anxiety about not getting admitted into a PhD program that helps draw me towards the more forgiving admission rates of various PsyD programs (with the exception of Baylor and Rutgers).

This gets mentioned a lot, often in the context of "psych grad school is harder to get into than medical school." Frankly I've never been sold on that as being true. Getting into GREAT programs with world-renowned mentors is probably harder than getting into medical school, but I think a reality is that a substantial number of applicants in psych have no research experience and just need something to do with their psych bachelor's.

 

[elprez33]

This gets mentioned a lot, often in the context of "psych grad school is harder to get into than medical school." Frankly I've never been sold on that as being true. Getting into GREAT programs with world-renowned mentors is probably harder than getting into medical school, but I think a reality is that a substantial number of applicants in psych have no research experience and just need something to do with their psych bachelor's.

So would it be true to say that about 75% of the applicants are just applying to get something to supplement their Bachelor's in Psychology?

 

[elprez33]

If I were you, I'd apply to funded, balanced counseling and clinical psych PhDs. Probably you'll not be the year's most sought-after applicant and you won't be getting into U Minnesota, but you're probably a good applicant. If you're still wanting to apply to your list that's fine, but I'd consider some of the many good, balanced, funded programs out there. Given your interests, look for programs that have pracs at a VA and a student counseling center, and have a good assessment program; then doors are open for your various options.

HOWEVER, I'm aware of some counseling psych people who have had trouble navigating going to other countries where the degree is not common (Australia being one of them), though I heard that years and years ago. At the same time, I think the same is probably true for PsyDs (which also tend not to be offered abroad and probably run into the same problem of some people not knowing what it is).

And I never figured I'd be the applicant that programs would begging to have , I'm good but not that good. I just wanted to make sure that I would be quite competitive and then apply to programs that have faculty that share in research fields or that I feel would be a good fit for me and me for them.

I've heard that I should be applying more for specific faculty than to the program in general...is that true?

 

[elprez33]

Ok, so you dont really have one. Thats basically a laundry list.

I still say save the money and the bias and go to a counseling psych ph.d. Like I said, the large state U in my city has one and the grads are primary practitioners and work everywhere from prisons, to hospitals, to managed care companies.

Well I have quite a few interests and need to get out there and see what the work is like in some of these fields.

Now I've heard that it is slightly easier to get into a counseling PhD program over a clinical one, any truth to that?

 

[elprez33]

Are there any balanced programs that come to mind right off the bat? I'm going to be doing the appropriate research into programs to find out more but it would be helpful to have some sort of direction.

Also, with schools like U of North Dakota, Idaho State University, and others (schools in less populated areas of the country), would I have a better chance of getting admitted because they usually have a smaller applicant pool?

 

[MCParent]

So would it be true to say that about 75% of the applicants are just applying to get something to supplement their Bachelor's in Psychology?

I wouldn't put any number on it without empirical data. More than none, and more than an insignificant proportion. I'm also willing to bet it varies with region (e.g., I bet Miami gets more than Ames).

I've heard that I should be applying more for specific faculty than to the program in general...is that true?

Yes.

Now I've heard that it is slightly easier to get into a counseling PhD program over a clinical one, any truth to that?

Probably on average that's true. However, at a program level it wouldn't be. It would probably be harder to get into Counseling at Missouri-Columbia or Maryland than many clinical programs. You'd have to look at GRE/GPA and other incoming student data by program to figure it out.

http://psychologygradschool.weebly.com/types-of-programs.html

Are there any balanced programs that come to mind right off the bat? I'm going to be doing the appropriate research into programs to find out more but it would be helpful to have some sort of direction.

A clinical person can answer for those programs; I'm hard-pressed to think of a counseling psych equivalent of U Minnesota-type programs. I think nearly every counseling psych program produces many practitioners, even among highly research-focused ones.

Also, with schools like U of North Dakota, Idaho State University, and others (schools in less populated areas of the country), would I have a better chance of getting admitted because they usually have a smaller applicant pool?

See above; my bet (based on nothing but thinking about things like this for a long time, and some minor anecdotal evidence) is that places like that get fewer, but probably better on average, applicants.

 

[elprez33]

I wouldn't put any number on it without empirical data. More than none, and more than an insignificant proportion. I'm also willing to bet it varies with region (e.g., I bet Miami gets more than Ames).



Yes.



Probably on average that's true. However, at a program level it wouldn't be. It would probably be harder to get into Counseling at Missouri-Columbia or Maryland than many clinical programs. You'd have to look at GRE/GPA and other incoming student data by program to figure it out.

http://psychologygradschool.weebly.com/types-of-programs.html



A clinical person can answer for those programs; I'm hard-pressed to think of a counseling psych equivalent of U Minnesota-type programs. I think nearly every counseling psych program produces many practitioners, even among highly research-focused ones.



See above; my bet (based on nothing but thinking about things like this for a long time, and some minor anecdotal evidence) is that places like that get fewer, but probably better on average, applicants.

More or less, the education that I would receive at a smaller (in prestige/funding $/student population) university would be similar to one that I would receive at a larger (see previous parenthesis) university?

Similar in the meaning of being standardized and possibly on par with each other in quality.

 

[erg923]

size of school wont matter, but, certainly not all programs are created equal. We used to have a poster on here that was very unhappy in their counseling ph.d program. And i sounded like they were being trained to be little more than therapists. This is not common, however.

 

[MPsych1]

I attend Indiana State, and love their PsyD program. It is funded, so nowhere near as expensive as other PsyD programs. We have people that have had placements at VA and two people that just left on internship that are in military positions. We also have more research than most PsyD's which is something that you may want to think about if you don't think you want to have any research in graduate school.

 

[MCParent]

Mentally edit my "apply to funded PhD programs" to "apply to funded PhD and PsyD programs." Rutgers, Baylor, and I State (those are the only ones I know to be funded, maybe there are a few more) are good.

 

[cara susanna]

I attend a clinical PhD program and most of our graduates work as clinicians.

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

Mentally edit my "apply to funded PhD programs" to "apply to funded PhD and PsyD programs." Rutgers, Baylor, and I State (those are the only ones I know to be funded, maybe there are a few more) are good.

There are some that have funding available (Psy.D.), especially if you come from a economically disadvantaged background, but you have to be willing to look for it.

 

[MCParent]

There are some that have funding available (Psy.D.), especially if you come from a economically disadvantaged background, but you have to be willing to look for it.

Well... are we talking full tuition remission and a stipend, or are we talking a $5000 "award" in the face of $150,000 tuition?

 

[xXIDaShizIXx]

Well... are we talking full tuition remission and a stipend, or are we talking a $5000 "award" in the face of $150,000 tuition?

About half off of $60,000 Tuition. Its not ideal, but if you work in the military or public service, 30K is remarkably easy to pay off and is very manageable.

 

[MPsych1]

At Indiana State you get a tuition remission (anywhere from 6-9 hours first year depending on that year's budget, 9 for every following year if you choose to switch to Indiana residency) and assistantship for 15-20 hours. So you are paying practically nothing out of pocket.