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Question about MD/DO degree

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by Bonger1, Apr 18, 2000.

  1. Hey Guys,

    I was just wondering if anybody had input about this...

    The other day I was in the hospital, and I happened to see a doc's name listed as MD/DO. I was wondering how this could be....
    if this doctor had to go through an allopathic education with MD residency + an Osteopathic residency.... or Osteopathic education with both types of residencies...
    Or both types of education! that's crazy...

    A couple of my Osteopathic educated friends are preparing for the COMLEX and USMLE's, but I thought they were taking the MD boards to have the option of doing an MD residency.
    Does your residency have any bearing on the type of degree you have?

    Just wondering....
    Thanxs
     
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  3. DocGibby

    DocGibby Senior Member
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    I'm sure someone around here has the hard facts. However, I'm pretty certain that the only way to recieve the MD or the DO degree is to actually attend a MD or DO school. You can do a residency in one or the other regardless of where you started but that is mainly the exception rather then the rule. DOs can apply for an allopathic residency for a variety of reasons such as family delema or some other circumstance. Sometimes a specific residency might not be available in the area except through an Allopathic program. There's obviously alot more to it then that, I'm sure someone else will jump in and give you the whole story.

    The StudentDoctor Net main sight does a pretty complete job at explaining alot of this. http://www.studentdoctor.net/do/internfaq.html

    If I had to speculate about the MD/DO name tag. I would say that the hospital in question uses the same id for all its doctors. The idea is to blur the lines between MD and DO so the patients more easily recognize that person as a doctor if they're not familiar with MD/DO distinctions. I've heard of some hospitals that remove the MD/DO tag all together and just say Doctor so and so.

    [This message has been edited by DocGibby (edited 04-18-2000).]
     
  4. Pikevillemedstudent

    Pikevillemedstudent Bengals Fan
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    Is it possible that this physician was one of those who felt he/she needed an MD degree to feel equal? Could this person have attended a carib. school to get the DO degree "converted" so to speak? I have read about this occurring in the past in California in the book "The D.O's: Osteopathic Medicine in America". However, I don't think it was a carib. school then though. I do know you can get an DPM/MD degree this way, but most likely Doc Gibby's explanation is correct.
     
  5. study buddy

    study buddy Junior Member
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    What do you guys think about that?? do you think more medical facilities should include MD letters with the DO letters to "blur the lines"? I'm not trying to start a "one vs the other" debate, it's just that this is the first I've heard of this and am wondering if others think it's a good idea.
     
  6. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved 10+ Year Member

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    It could be an MD who got his/her DO overseas...a nonmedically trained DO who became a medically trained one.
     
  7. turtleboard

    turtleboard SDN Advisor
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    You're awarded the MD if you go to an allopathic medical school. You're awarded the DO if you go to an osteopathic medical school.

    DOs can do osteopathic or allopathic residencies, but doing the latter WILL NOT give that DO an MD degree.

    MDs can only do allopathic residencies.

    There are instances where MDs or DOs get the other degree by going abroad. But using the degree obtained abroad as a professional title, as in, "John Smith, MD, DO" is ILLEGAL unless the degree obtained abroad is certified in the US as a professional degree (taking the appropriate exams, etc.). Many have gone abroad to get an "academic" MD or DO, which has absolutely no use professionally (i.e., would be illegal to use as part of your professional title).

    The 2,000 or so DOs in California in the 1960s who traded their DOs for MDs didn't go abroad, but were granted MDs through a makeshift medical school on US soil, which later became the UC-Irvine School of Medicine.

    Back to Neuro...

    Tim of New York City.
     
  8. Dr. Kolodziejczyk

    Dr. Kolodziejczyk Junior Member

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    Actually, I believe Michigan State is the only medical school to offer an MD/DO degree. I don't know much else about it, but I would bet they offer the MD/DO in a way similar to the MD/PhD or DO/PhD. It probably requires only a couple of extra years, or a lot of extra work during the normal schooling. But, at any rate, you can bet it took a bit more time to receive the DO/MD.

    -Chris
     
  9. DocGibby

    DocGibby Senior Member
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    Dr. K.

    MSU has two seperate medical schools, an MD and a DO. Both are 4 year degrees with their own separate residency programs. If you want both, then you have to complete one then apply for the other and start all over again. You can't do it jointly at the same time as you would a DO/PhD or MD/PhD program.

    [This message has been edited by DocGibby (edited 04-19-2000).]
     
  10. Duo Degree

    Duo Degree Member
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    Some of the speculations about schools offering DO and MD together is quite entertaining. Going back to the original confusion...I've seen a book at Barnes and Noble whose author has both a DO and MD, with the DO listed immediately after his last name. It struck me as very unusual as well.
     
  11. Dr. Kolodziejczyk

    Dr. Kolodziejczyk Junior Member

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    Yeah, I am not exactly sure about how the DO/MD degree works, but I do know that when I was asking a few D.O.'s I know about the various D.O. schools, they told me that MSU offers a joint D.O./M.D. degree. I'm sure there must be a med student at MSU out there to clear this thing up for sure. If you are out there, speak now or forever hold our ignorance.
     
  12. 705

    705

    This may help a little bit.

    In Indianapolis, many insurance companies and hospitals list DO's as DO/MD in order to make physician choice less confusing. It is just to let the patient know that this is a unique physician but yet is as qualified as any MD. There's not much of a DO presence in Indiana and consequently the mention of Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine gets funny looks. I suspect that in many "under-represented osteopathic areas" this may be a common practice. It is a way of just clearing the air and leveling the playing ground for the DO's. Also, it is easier and cheaper than spending millions on a marketing campaign to educate the public about the full scope of practice that DO's enjoy.



    ------------------
    Indiana Mike
    Des Moines University - College of Osteopathic Medicine and Surgery
    Class of 2004
     
  13. Jkeum22985

    Jkeum22985 Member
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    you guys are all wrong!

    There are few DO schools in the country who provides special 3 year program or acceptance with advance credits if you are foreign MD undergoing DO education in America.

    They are MDs already abroad but they are going for their DO here.

    Sincerely,

    Jacob Keum
    4th year NYCOM
     
  14. Dr. Kolodziejczyk

    Dr. Kolodziejczyk Junior Member

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    Okay, let me make sure I understand this....
    Most MD/DO's are MD's from other countries, but pursuing a D.O. degree in the U.S.?
     
  15. Jkeum22985

    Jkeum22985 Member
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    yes to a degree!

    Many who are lucky enough to get into DO schools in America will have better chances of securing residency slots here b/c DOs are considered equally as MDs when talking about residency selection.

    If someone is a foreign MD even if you got a decent score on your USMLEs their are not guaranteed of a residency slot in the U.S.
    In addition, it got even more difficult now that total slots for residencies have been cut down to 110%. So now they are competing for 10% of residency slots not occupied by American medical school graduates.

    Once they go through DO education, as long as their immigration status is clear, they will be given same consideration as american medical school graduate.
     
  16. DOC-2004

    DOC-2004 Junior Member
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    Dr. Kolodziejczyk may not be as wrong as some of you think. When I got interviewed at MSU-COM, one of my interviewers was the future COO of MSU-COM (Dr. Strample). We were talking about DO and MD histories and he mentioned to me that there are states that allow the med. school grad. to choose whether she would like to have the DO or MD degree awarded to her (I assume one has to request the option because I know of no states that automatically offer the option). This obviously surprised me since I had never heard of such a thing (hence, I never repeated it assuming the interviewer was testing my loyalty toward becoming a DO). However, when I read Dr. Kolodziejczyk's entry I decided I would mention it to you all. Dr. Strample did not mention which state(s) did/do this. He worked for the AOA for many years. I don't recall what he did for them though. (Perhaps someone who has access to a list of AOA administrators or chairpersons will know.) He said that the AOA does not announce this for fear of DOs choosing the MD option. What do you all think? Was it just to get me to say something that would allow him to question my desire to become a DO? Or is/was this true? I never bothered to look into it any further... Just food for thought.

     
  17. Jkeum22985

    Jkeum22985 Member
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    I would be very careful if I were you....

    Accreditation are different and if DO schools were granting MD degrees then what is really the purpose of having AOA and DO schools per se. We all know the frail nature of relationship bet AOA and AMA.

    And, if this was true many people would know it already. Now, few years back I have been told that if you go to MD residency in certain states upon completion and licensing you can put MD on it if you wanted...

    As far as I know every year there are bunch of students who want to change their degree from DO to something like MD/DO or some other nonsense like that.... if we would think in that direction that I think all those students should attend MD schools instead of DO obviously they prefer to have that MD on their title.

    We have to have confidence on our profession.
    I met few old timers who still think like back in 50's about DOs being chiropractors and all that. But the truth is we are represented on every ladder of American Medicine: from the space program even in NIH.

    Sincerely
    Jacob Keum
    4th year NYCOM
     
  18. rhillstr

    rhillstr Senior Member
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    We all want to enjoy recognition as competent and special doctors as DO's. However in many states like mine (OR) it isn't the case. Those who have seen a DO here are aware of what it means but those who haven't still give you that, "you mean like a chiropractor or foot doctor" look. When you are listed in a PPO book for an insurance provider given to it's subscribers and you don't have a fig of an idea what a DO is, are you going to choose one? MD/DO is not crying out "I wanna be an MD..." it's saying, "Hey pal, I can handle your comprehensive care competently AND offer you something extra (OMM)". However what would be GREAT is if AOA would quit yapping about a "great ad campaign" and do something all ready! Till then I wouldn't mind getting some extra patronage and awareness of what I can offer my patients. Remember we're here to help, not be prideful...
     
  19. Jkeum22985

    Jkeum22985 Member
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    My question is when you are listed on HMO books under specialty, consumers or patients know that you are qualified to care for internal medicine problems if you are listed under internal medicine section or surgery.

    Maybe in those States where DO recognition is still meager, AOA and the local state DO organizations should petition HMOs or Insurance company Doctor listing to provide explanation on degree.

    Let me tell you, as of today, I have found many books for average consumers seeking for best doctors in their area, explaining the MD and DO degree as licensed physicians.

    I really don't know about your town or your state honestly, but if you think visibility is the issue then you should definitely speak with the president of AOA or participate actively on local state DO chapters for visibility campaigns.

    Let me tell you that even when I was working for a family physician in urban NYC area, only occasionally people ask me about what is DO and all that. it takes some time before building a reputation as an outstanding Physician. This Doctor I had worked for during my rotation, he had so many patients that sometimes he went home around 10PM. Let me say this, if your patients are giving you hardtime for DO and MD jack you request a brochure from AOA with explanation between and MD and DO and give it to those who are very skeptical of your competence.

    I don't know about you but after ending my rotation, I had patients begging me to stay and join the practice. I even heard of patients asking for me after I had left. Patients know when you are a good Doctor, and when you are there for them working hard for their health, specially if you care for your patients with sincerity.

    I am sorry to hear about all those fellow DOs out there who are being looked upon as chiropractors wannabe MDs by your patients. But please, I can guarantee you if you are good they don't ask twice!!!!!!
    and if they keep on nagging about DO jack then maybe you should jack them too for good.

    Sincerely,

    Jacob Keum
    ending in 2weeks with DO from NYCOM
     
  20. zilberman

    zilberman Junior Member
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    Jkeum22985 may i ask you a question.

    When you did your rotations at NYCOM, what is the attitude of MD students toward DO students.

    Do you think that Do education had something to do with your popularity.

    where did you match?
     
  21. bobo

    bobo Senior Member
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    WARNING: FLAME AHEAD!!!!!!!

    "I had patients begging me to stay and join the practice. I even heard of patients asking for me after I had left."

    You pomposity is astounding. Tone it down dude.
     
  22. Jkeum22985

    Jkeum22985 Member
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    Mr Bobo:

    that is clearly more than simple book knowledge to become a great physician.
    I am just telling you my experience in this family practice setting and on many others.
    I was told by my patients when I am going to open my practice and this is just plain truth.

    Sincerely,

    Jacob Keum
     
  23. ewagner

    ewagner Senior Member
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    I don't know why this is so perplexing, I didn't read all the posts so someone may have already answered this. MD/DO is the title given to those in Cali that traded in their DO for an MD in the 60's. I know a guy who did that. No disgrace in it.
     
  24. abc

    abc Junior Member

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    the guy is an idiot... MD/DO what a watse of ink... DO says it all... who needs MD...

    DO = MD + extra cool stuffs

    Anyway, the idiot probably graduated from a foreign medical school (therefore MD and later attended an American osteopathic medical school.
     
  25. MODEERF NIATPAC

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    Jacob,

    I am interested to know what specialty you will be starting your residency in. If you don't mind, since you are extremely open to state your name and school, where will you be doing this residency? You sound like a very confident student, so I was just wondering what and where your residency will be in.
     
  26. rhillstr

    rhillstr Senior Member
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    ABC,
    We all agree with your equation. The problem is that it isn't universally recognized, particularly out west here.
    Why the doctor was MD/DO in California is that DO's were awarded honorary MD's by California Medical Association (CMA) for $60 so they could continue to practice, because CMA made it illegal for DO's to practice. This was not the medical degree they earned but they had to choose either MD/DO on their title or MD. So it was not simply a foreign MD or a waste of ink. It was what they were REQUIRED to do to practice. Get your facts straight please, before you post.
     
  27. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
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    i have a question about this MD/DO guy....

    was he a competent and caring physician?????

    if so, then what the hell is all this nonsense about? you got idiots calling him an idiot when they've never met him,
    others assuming hes this and he's that...
    man, why don't we just ASK the guy instead of starting all this rumor mill crap.....

    This is turning into a henhouse of ignorance...RESEARCH is the key...not that the topic is that fascinating.
     
  28. abc

    abc Junior Member

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    "RESEARCH is the key"

    "Get your facts straight please,
    before you post."

    What is it in the word "probably" that you don't understand?

    ADRIANSHOE, if you can't understand that calling MD/DO is entirely unnecessary, then you too are... guess what... an idiot.
     
  29. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member
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    I agree completely with you ABC...you are correct, i would be an idiot if i didnt concede that point...it is completely ludicrous to walk around with an MD/DO label on your jacket..ALMOST AS LUDICRIOUS AS GIVING A DAMN ABOUT IT...that isn't my point, my point is SO WHAT as long as he is a good caring competent physician..if he wants to stroke his ego, or if he was an offshore md first, or if he went to a joint accrediting school, that is HIS business, we all stroke our egos different ways, me by writing long winding posts with tiny shreds of lucency buried for the treasure finder, so if he wants to stroke his ego and be a MD/DO, or if he just needed the DO degree to practice here or if he was an australian osteopath who attended md school here, its a mute point, its all conjecture and its not even that big an issue.....this thread is all caught up in some tizzy about this md/do crap, but how is it going to AFFECT you personally? why is it a problem and/or a solution, what are the downsides, is the sky really falling around us?
    The real issue is how to ensure uniformly high standards of care and educational training and opportunity with two separate qualifying bodies. So far, i think they do a good job as a whole with areas for improvement definitely needed as well.
    but its really not an efficient system.
    Now, most businesses move to efficiency at some point when there is redundancy. perhaps a pertinent question would be HOW to most advantageously arrive at this point in the event that it becomes inevitable. A contingency plan if you will.
     
  30. DOc2be

    DOc2be Junior Member
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    I understand where you are coming from, especially being that I fully embrance the osteopathic philosophy (thus being the reason I only applied to DO schools). However, as an MD or Do, we are going to be working towards the same ultimate goal...THE PREVENTION AND TREATEMENT OF DISEASES. Sure, the DO is going to be performing some OMM, but ultimately we will both be curing our patients (hopefully) whether MD or DO . Something I don't understand is the fact that many posts within the copius threads complain about MD/DO and the availability of residencies, etc, (MD's not being allowed to be in the AOA match, but DO's being able to do both). When all of you are on here complaining about the degree (MD vs. DO), you are really perturbing me because we (yes all students whether they admit is or not) get angry at the MD's putting down the DO's as a second-class doctor, which of course we ARE NOT!!!!! With these kind of complaints that you are all throwing about the MD/DO on a name tag you are putting down the MD degree, something we should not be doing...especially since we will all be working together (MD and DO) as one big happy family with the DO's of course adding OMM to the treatment!!

    This is just some food for thought....any feedback.
     
  31. UHS03

    UHS03 Senior Member
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    Since I am studying for my OPP exam, I feel the compelling need to point out that doctors don't cure patients. We remove impediments to disease to allow the body to heal itself. Man, my profs would be proud [​IMG] BTW, I'm not really so anal as too pick on that comment, I just now happened to read a review of all those osteopathic principles we were taught on day 1 of school. Needless to say, I couldn't help but to remind everyone of first year OPP (or whatever it's called at your school!)

    FOR ALL UHS STUDENTS...GOOD LUCK ON EXAMS NEXT WEEK!!

    [This message has been edited by UHS03 (edited 05-02-2000).]
     
  32. ABC,
    We all agree with your equation. The problem is that it isn't universally recognized, particularly out west here.
    Why the doctor was MD/DO in California is that DO's were awarded honorary MD's by California Medical Association (CMA) for $60 so they could continue to practice, because CMA made it illegal for DO's to practice. This was not the medical degree they earned but they had to choose either MD/DO on their title or MD. So it was not simply a foreign MD or a waste of ink. It was what they were REQUIRED to do to practice. Get your facts straight please, before you post.


    They were NOT required to switch to an md degree to practice. it was optional. however, a good number of them did. There are still a number of california DO's that lived through that time of degree swapping to tell the tale. Viola Frymann is one glaring example of this.

    It was yet another ploy for the AMA to eliminate osteopathic medicine. they had tried stomping it out, which did not work. so they decided to amalgamate do's into their organization by offering them an MD degree, getting rid of them that way. That did not work.

    What HAS worked is the AMA allowing DO's to become full AMA members. This has swollowed and hoodwinked the DO profession whole...the identity is all but gone.
     
  33. rhillstr

    rhillstr Senior Member
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    The attempt to amalgamate the DO's in Cali only strengthened the AOA's argument that DO's are as competent as MD's. They just said DO's without additional education were good enought to receive the MD. Their attempt to stomp Osteopathic backfired and many additional states gave full license rights to DO's. You are right, the CMA tried to influence California state legislation to ban DO's but offering the switch undermined their efforts. Sorry about that discrepancy I was tired when I wrote that. It was very hard to survive as I understand without the MD due to the stigma the CMA spread to the general problem. Correct me again if I'm wrong.
     

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