Question about Pod Schools integrated with MD/DO schools...

[Johnblake]

Hey guys, I wanted to get everyones opinion on how the programs that have the classes integrated with the MD/DO programs work.

I believe that this is a great move for podiatry to start integrating these programs, but my fear is that podiatry students could possibly be the afterthought or stepchildren in a MD/DO program.

I hope that is not the case but I just wanted to test the waters to see what everyone thought. Thanks.

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[Dr. Gangrene]

Hey guys, I wanted to get everyones opinion on how the programs that have the classes integrated with the MD/DO programs work.

I believe that this is a great move for podiatry to start integrating these programs, but my fear is that podiatry students could possibly be the afterthought or stepchildren in a MD/DO program.

I hope that is not the case but I just wanted to test the waters to see what everyone thought. Thanks.

At Midwestern (Azpod), all basic science classes are w/ D.O. students. There is no differentiation of who is D.O. vs. Pod. Most people don't even know you are pod, and are surprised to find out you are not a D.O. student.
I can only speak for my school, but pods are not an afterthought. I would say 1/3 of my class gets better grades than most of the D.O. students, and you are accepted as anyone else.

 

[Creflo]

At Midwestern (Azpod), all basic science classes are w/ D.O. students. There is no differentiation of who is D.O. vs. Pod. Most people don't even know you are pod, and are surprised to find out you are not a D.O. student.
I can only speak for my school, but pods are not an afterthought. I would say 1/3 of my class gets better grades than most of the D.O. students, and you are accepted as anyone else.

I second this, we are equals at AZPOD. The DO's still think I'm a DO student. I sense absolutely no discrimination toward our program.

 

[jiggleboy]

hi guys,

I am usually a lurker, but never really on this forum, but this post caught my attn. I looked up breifly the requirements for podiatry and it seems to be 4yrs pod school, 3yrs residency..correct? If so, why would you favor podiatry over medicine+orthopedics? It's just 2 more years of residency and (I am pretty sure) you can do a lot more as an orthopedic surgeon as well as being well-versed with major diseases of the entire body..clearly you guys chose this for some reason - is it because it's easier to get in than med school or is there something more? (ps don't mean to insult or anything, im genuinely curious)

Thanks.

 

[cool_vkb]

hi guys,

I am usually a lurker, but never really on this forum, but this post caught my attn. I looked up breifly the requirements for podiatry and it seems to be 4yrs pod school, 3yrs residency..correct? If so, why would you favor podiatry over medicine+orthopedics? It's just 2 more years of residency and (I am pretty sure) you can do a lot more as an orthopedic surgeon as well as being well-versed with major diseases of the entire body..clearly you guys chose this for some reason - is it because it's easier to get in than med school or is there something more? (ps don't mean to insult or anything, im genuinely curious)

Thanks.

Iam just speakin for myself. so dont hold my views as the views of entire student community.

I chose Podiatry over DO schools (or MD school) because i knew what i wanted to do from last 2-3 yrs. Podiary gives you a very relax lifestyle and a good mixture of surgery & general medicine. The feeling of going back home after 9-5 job is amazing. I used to work as Radiography tech and used to take calls in weekend. So may be not at MD level but i do know how it is to be away from home or family on odd times. Yeah there are some really family friendly specialities in Medcine also but i didnt liked them as there was no surgery component. Again, iam not into deep serious stuff where life & death is involved. So for me Podiatry was the deal of century. Decent income, good practice from medicine to surgery, regular timings. Plus no dealing with genetics, Psychiartry, cardio, optho, gyno,etc etc.

Keep in mind, Orthopedics is a part of Podiatry. Podiatry is not orthopedics. For us anything in foot & ankle is a fair game. be it ortho, derm, vascular,etc etc. You name it we can do it (provided its in our geography). As a Orthopedic surgeon you are looking at a law suit if you start plastic surgery on foot. where as we can do anything when it comes to foot and ankle.

Podiatry = All medical specialities involved in healthy functioning of foot and ankle.

Orthopedics = bones & joints / skeletal system

 

[jonwill]

hi guys,

I am usually a lurker, but never really on this forum, but this post caught my attn. I looked up breifly the requirements for podiatry and it seems to be 4yrs pod school, 3yrs residency..correct? If so, why would you favor podiatry over medicine+orthopedics? It's just 2 more years of residency and (I am pretty sure) you can do a lot more as an orthopedic surgeon as well as being well-versed with major diseases of the entire body..clearly you guys chose this for some reason - is it because it's easier to get in than med school or is there something more? (ps don't mean to insult or anything, im genuinely curious)

Thanks.

Yes and no. Yea, generally speaking, it is easier to get into pod school. However, I think most go into podiatry these days because they want to be foot and ankle surgeons. Ortho is 2 years longer and many orthos get minimal training in foot surgery (which is why very few orthos do any). So if you want to be a foot and ankle surgeon, podiatry is more focused AND shorter. Yea, you could go the ortho route and do a f&a fellowship but that would be yet another year. As far as being "versed with major diseases of the body", you'll be hard pressed to find any ortho that medically manages a patient with multiple co-morbidities. They leave that to the experts (internal med). They will manage simple patients (as will podiatry).

So long story short, there are multiple reasons as to why someone goes into podiatry. But going the ortho route to get foot and ankle training is long and there are no guarantees. Some ortho programs have as little as 4 wks of foot surgery. Podiatric surgeons receive 3 years of surgical training and are the experts when it comes to f&a surgery.

 

[cool_vkb]

As i mentioned in my above posts that some of us joined podiatry as we like the medicin & surgery aspect. here's a good example.

There are some problems where podiatry is probably the preferred surgeon. A possibly infected corn on a toe is probably best treated by a podiatrist. We can clean and flush the wound in the office, prescribe the antibiotic, provide the healing shoe, provide special shoes afterwards and plan the eventual surgical procedure for the toe to prevent the problem from coming back. Dermatologists can clean the wound and prescribe the antibiotic but are not the ones to manage the bone infection. An orthopedist can clean the wound (but rarely in the office) and do the toe surgery but are not the experts at the daily management of the wound and not likely to be involved in shoe modifications and padding of the corns.

 

[Feli]

hi guys,

I am usually a lurker, but never really on this forum, but this post caught my attn. I looked up breifly the requirements for podiatry and it seems to be 4yrs pod school, 3yrs residency..correct? If so, why would you favor podiatry over medicine+orthopedics? It's just 2 more years of residency and (I am pretty sure) you can do a lot more as an orthopedic surgeon as well as being well-versed with major diseases of the entire body..clearly you guys chose this for some reason - is it because it's easier to get in than med school or is there something more? (ps don't mean to insult or anything, im genuinely curious)

Thanks.

jonwill's response pretty much sums it up well.

However, another factor is that, by going to pod school, you know your specialty from the start. That is definitely not the case with MD or DO unless you are targeting a currently less competitive field like peds or FP. A lot of allo/osteo students I've met cooperate well, but in the end, they basically end up fighting over the few specialties with good pay and a decent lifestyle. I've met more than a few stressed out students studying for USMLE knowing that it could very well dictate which specialty doors are open/closed to them when they get the results.

I'm sure you're aware, but there are tons of FP, ER, OB, gen surg, etc etc etc docs out there who went to med school with the idea that they were going to do ortho surg. It's become an extremely popular and tough to match field as you will see from a simple look at ortho boards or other forums. I have a family member who is in that boat right now, and while I'm sure he will certainly enjoy and excel at his specialty which he matched a few months ago, he was dead set on ortho when he was pre-med as well as MS1 and 2. It's a pretty competitive specialty (even if you're at a top US med school as he was), and a couple C or B grades even just an average testing on the USMLE pt1 can really be the difference maker between a great career in ortho and more hours/less $ in GS or doing no surgery and even less $ in ER/IM/etc. While I think every specialty in medicine is important, starting out MD school (or especially FMG or DO school) with an "ortho or bust" attitude would really not be wise and likely sets up even a very good student up for disappointment.

Pod, while there are still are a few "gunners" aiming for top residencies, is more similar to optometry or dental route in that you know your specialty from the onset, but all pods will do a residency after the 4yrs of school, generally make a little more money, and are trained to do surgery.

Personally, I really liked what pod offered in that you know what you are getting into from the start. I was actually most interested in primary care when I was pre-med due to the variety and long term patient relationships, but pod offers me that (many diabetics are your patient for years/lifetime) as well as offering a fair amount of surgical procedures to keep things interesting. If podiatry every gets completely enveloped and integrated with the MD/DO match (very possible with the high level of many of today's DPM residency programs), I think it'd be a pretty appealing and competitive specialty.

 

[shocker]

Lurker here.

Does the integration with MD/DO schools mean the first 2 years or is there some other integration?

I was feeling a little negativity regarding orthopedic surgeons above. I respect Podiatry as a field and have a good friend who has been practicing for about 5 years, so I am not here to cause any stink. But, I do think that you should respect orthopedic surgeons and their capabilities. I only mention this becase of the accusations of not being able to handle complex patients and restriction of knowledge to the musculoskeletal system. When necessary they have the knowledge to handle other problems but it seems that many of them just choose not to do it... Those that match and complete ortho residencies are generally the cream of the crop and on average are extremely bright.

 

[SportPOD]

Lurker here.

Does the integration with MD/DO schools mean the first 2 years or is there some other integration?

I was feeling a little negativity regarding orthopedic surgeons above. I respect Podiatry as a field and have a good friend who has been practicing for about 5 years, so I am not here to cause any stink. But, I do think that you should respect orthopedic surgeons and their capabilities. I only mention this becase of the accusations of not being able to handle complex patients and restriction of knowledge to the musculoskeletal system. When necessary they have the knowledge to handle other problems but it seems that many of them just choose not to do it... Those that match and complete ortho residencies are generally the cream of the crop and on average are extremely bright.

I don't think anyone here has made the assumption that orthopods aren't well trained or that they are "dumb". What is being said is that in orthopedic residency, in the 5 years that they are residents, they may spend at most 4 weeks doing a specialized foot and ankle rotation. They may on occasion get a foot or ankle case while on call, but if it's at a hospital that has a podiatry residency, the ER will call in the pod resident.
Podiatry specializes with the lower extremity conditions from day one. I work with a foot and ankle orthopedist and he spends about 90% of his practice doing knee replacements. His opinion is that the foot and ankle is better left to the podiatrist.

To answer your first question, the 1st two years are integrated with the medical students.

 

[shocker]

mistake

 

[shocker]

As i mentioned in my above posts that some of us joined podiatry as we like the medicin & surgery aspect. here's a good example.

There are some problems where podiatry is probably the preferred surgeon. A possibly infected corn on a toe is probably best treated by a podiatrist. We can clean and flush the wound in the office, prescribe the antibiotic, provide the healing shoe, provide special shoes afterwards and plan the eventual surgical procedure for the toe to prevent the problem from coming back. Dermatologists can clean the wound and prescribe the antibiotic but are not the ones to manage the bone infection. An orthopedist can clean the wound (but rarely in the office) and do the toe surgery but are not the experts at the daily management of the wound and not likely to be involved in shoe modifications and padding of the corns.

An orthopedist is not an expert at wound care?
Tell them that they cannot take care of a wound.

SportPOD - I was not saying that anyone was "dumb" I was simply saying that some of the generalizations of orthopedic surgeons were bordering on unfair. And I was not antagonistic at all. I am not doing any comparison here, I know Podiatriasts are well-trained and a valuable resource. I was simply trying to halt any over-zealous characterizations of another well-trained and valuable medical resource, the orthopedic surgeon.

 

[shocker]

Yes and no. Yea, generally speaking, it is easier to get into pod school. However, I think most go into podiatry these days because they want to be foot and ankle surgeons. Ortho is 2 years longer and many orthos get minimal training in foot surgery (which is why very few orthos do any). So if you want to be a foot and ankle surgeon, podiatry is more focused AND shorter. Yea, you could go the ortho route and do a f&a fellowship but that would be yet another year. As far as being "versed with major diseases of the body", you'll be hard pressed to find any ortho that medically manages a patient with multiple co-morbidities. They leave that to the experts (internal med). They will manage simple patients (as will podiatry).

So long story short, there are multiple reasons as to why someone goes into podiatry. But going the ortho route to get foot and ankle training is long and there are no guarantees. Some ortho programs have as little as 4 wks of foot surgery. Podiatric surgeons receive 3 years of surgical training and are the experts when it comes to f&a surgery.

Another very broad generalization. I understand what the poster is saying, but many ortho docs manage complex elderly patients with multiple co-morbidities while performing joint repairs.

 

[shocker]

I can't get the multiple quotes in one post function right, apologies.

 

[jonwill]

Another very broad generalization. I understand what the poster is saying, but many ortho docs manage complex elderly patients with multiple co-morbidities while performing joint repairs.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen but you'd have to agree that the majority of orthos (and other specialists for that matter) don't want to mess with high risk patients. At least, this has been my experience. But it all depends on the doc and what they feel comfortable doing.

 

[shocker]

Agreed. I just wanted to clarify that Ortho docs can handle a multitude of problems, it may not be their bread and butter, but they have the capabilities to handle a lot more than just bones.

 

[jonwill]

Agreed. I just wanted to clarify that Ortho docs can handle a multitude of problems, it may not be their bread and butter, but they have the capabilities to handle a lot more than just bones.

I understand. I'm sorry if it came off wrong. I have mentioned it before but I have great respect for orthos. We work very closely with them. Their knowledge base is amazing. I have trouble with just the foot/ankle! I'll actually be rotating with ortho trauma at a level I trauma center from July-September of this year. It will be crazy but a good learning experience. Are you ortho?

 

[shocker]

That should be a great experience.

I am not ortho, quite opposite, I actually just matched into Radiology. I did think about ortho for awhile and did 2 extra ortho rotations just to make sure, but I enjoyed imaging too much... I just follow these forums occasionally. As I said above, I have a friend who is a Podiatric Surgeon and I have an immense respect for what he does.

I did not mean to hijack you guys' thread. I will get lost.

 

[krabmas]

An orthopedist is not an expert at wound care?
Tell them that they cannot take care of a wound.

SportPOD - I was not saying that anyone was "dumb" I was simply saying that some of the generalizations of orthopedic surgeons were bordering on unfair. And I was not antagonistic at all. I am not doing any comparison here, I know Podiatriasts are well-trained and a valuable resource. I was simply trying to halt any over-zealous characterizations of another well-trained and valuable medical resource, the orthopedic surgeon.

ortho trauma can do wound care.

most other specialties do not want to do wound care. In the hospital most docs call the wound care nurses for all wounds.

 

[MrFeeties]

my $.02

Podiatry school is easier to get into but it is NOT any easier to complete than any other med schools, as a lot of my class has found out this first year. On the other end of the specturm, we take classes with Chicago Medical School students and some of them are borderline ******ed. Not just social ineptitude, but like completely clueless with pod students running circles around them. That's probably the same situation everywhere though, even in clinical practice.

There have definitely been some conversations that consist of "holy ****! podiatrists do all that?", but as a whole I would say our class is regarded as equals with our md student counterparts. At the end of the day, we're all physicians I guess. I would go head to head with any orthopedist about metabolic disorders

 

[Moniker]

my $.02

Podiatry school is easier to get into but it is NOT any easier to complete than any other med schools, as a lot of my class has found out this first year. On the other end of the specturm, we take classes with Chicago Medical School students and some of them are borderline ******ed. Not just social ineptitude, but like completely clueless with pod students running circles around them. That's probably the same situation everywhere though, even in clinical practice.

There have definitely been some conversations that consist of "holy ****! podiatrists do all that?", but as a whole I would say our class is regarded as equals with our md student counterparts. At the end of the day, we're all physicians I guess. I would go head to head with any orthopedist about metabolic disorders

whoa you guys are really defensive on this thread. some of you at least (cook_vkb & MrFeeties).

 

[shocker]

my $.02

Podiatry school is easier to get into but it is NOT any easier to complete than any other med schools, as a lot of my class has found out this first year. On the other end of the specturm, we take classes with Chicago Medical School students and some of them are borderline ******ed. Not just social ineptitude, but like completely clueless with pod students running circles around them. That's probably the same situation everywhere though, even in clinical practice.

There have definitely been some conversations that consist of "holy ****! podiatrists do all that?", but as a whole I would say our class is regarded as equals with our md student counterparts. At the end of the day, we're all physicians I guess. I would go head to head with any orthopedist about metabolic disorders

Again, I think people are taking things a little too far. If you want respect, don't go around calling people ******ed or inept, it actually reflects poorly on you. The first line I bolded above is untrue. I appreciate how hard podiatry school is and I am sure it is just as hard as SOME med schools, but not "any". Look at the Duke medical school curriculum. They do the first 2 years in just over 1 year and do a year of dedicated research within the 4-year time frame, that is extremely rigorous and should not be overlooked.

Your cavalier statements will only create more negativity, especially if any Chicago med students read your comments. I am sure some do have some troubles but calling them ******ed? That will only cause more conflict between their group versus your group, not further your cause.

 

[cool_vkb]

...

 

[cool_vkb]

I am sure it is just as hard as SOME med schools, but not "any". Look at the Duke medical school curriculum. They do the first 2 years in just over 1 year and do a year of dedicated research within the 4-year time frame, that is extremely rigorous and should not be overlooked .

Wow 2yrs in 1yr. tats kewl. are you also a duke alumni?

 

[jonwill]

my $.02

some of them are borderline ******ed. Not just social ineptitude, but like completely clueless with pod students running circles around them.

OK...maybe so BUT can you honestly tell me that when you look around the room at some of YOUR classmates, you don't think the exact same thing?

 

[justincredible]

A few weeks ago I heard about a particular MD student blatantly bad-mouthing us Pod counterparts. She goes around saying she hates all of us and that we're only here because we couldn't get into medical school and that we shouldn't be considered real doctors. This coming from a student that sits next to us in the same classes graded on the same curves...

It's little things like that get under my skin. I guess it's a constant feud. Battle of the egos perhaps...

 

[shocker]

I am not Duke alumni, not even close to being that bright. I am from a small state medical school...

I do have thoughts about how some of my classmates made it to where they are, but if they pass the courses and exams, then they must have something that I don't see. The person I quoted above was implying that the Podiatry students were far better than the medical students "running circles around them", "******ed, socially inept", and so forth. I believe that some of the Pod students are better than some of the med students, that doesn't shock me. But, I bet that there are some "******ed" students in the Podiatry class that they are not addressing. You need to look at groups as a whole, if you pick and choose then you can say anything. I could say I am smarter than A Harvard medical school graduate because I got a higher test score than they did, but am I smarter than most Harvard grads, absolutely not.

I see your point but I have met nurses and technologists that run circles around me, and I have held my own throughout medical school and all required licensing exams. I am sure that some Pod students are more intelligent than I am, and conversely I may be more intelligent than some Pod students. You just don't see me in Allopathic forums saying I run circles around Podiatry students and calling them ******ed.

Shocker, MD
I graduated yesterday, man it feels good to be done.

 

[cool_vkb]

.

 

[cool_vkb]

I feel may be we should stop attacking schools by name and stick to our regular podiatry agenda. I fail to understand why does this always happens in this community. Pods, Pod students and pre-pods are having a discussion, totally minding their own business and suddenly some xyz people start jumping arnd and then starts the hostilities and offensive-defensive talk etc. Lets all get back to the actual discussion that was being done.

 

[shocker]

I feel may be we should stop attacking schools by name and stick to our regular podiatry agenda. I fail to understand why does this always happens in this community. Pods, Pod students and pre-pods are having a discussion, totally minding their own business and suddenly some xyz people start jumping arnd and then starts the hostilities and offensive-defensive talk etc. Lets all get back to the actual discussion that was being done.

I feel you, I will leave again, for good. But, I have not been hostile or offensive-defensive. I thought I was generating good conversation in a thread titled: Question about Pod Schools integrated with MD/DO schools. I was just trying to give some contribution from a rational member of the MD/DO school side (I have seen some irrational, inflammatory, and egotistical contributions from the MD/DO side in seperate threads). Good luck.

 

[cool_vkb]

I feel you, I will leave again, for good. But, I have not been hostile or offensive-defensive. I thought I was generating good conversation in a thread titled: Question about Pod Schools integrated with MD/DO schools. I was just trying to give some contribution from a rational member of the MD/DO school side (I have seen some irrational, inflammatory, and egotistical contributions from the MD/DO side in seperate threads). Good luck.

Arrrr! my post was no way directed towards you. As you saw in other threads i was speakin in general. You are a Radiologist and i feel people like you (attendings/residents) are always welcome.

 

[krabmas]

A few weeks ago I heard about a particular MD student blatantly bad-mouthing us Pod counterparts. She goes around saying she hates all of us and that we're only here because we couldn't get into medical school and that we shouldn't be considered real doctors. This coming from a student that sits next to us in the same classes graded on the same curves...

It's little things like that get under my skin. I guess it's a constant feud. Battle of the egos perhaps...

I understand that you are happy to be where you are. But, think about it from their perspective. They worked their a_s off to get into med school (most likely), they scored the above average score on the MCAT 28-35, and had the above average GPA 3.5-4.0 (most likely).

They do not know your scores but according to the law of averages it is probably not that high since the average for pod school is not as high.

If you worked rediculously hard and gave up your life in college to get into med school and look at your neighbor in your class that is in the same place but did not have to "proove" themselves as much you might be bitter as well.

 

[justincredible]

I understand what you're saying.

But regardless of her pride, I didn't think her behavior was very "professional".. I dont think I'll ever get used to remarks like that, no matter how many times I hear it.

 

[cool_vkb]

I understand that you are happy to be where you are. But, think about it from their perspective. They worked their a_s off to get into med school (most likely), they scored the above average score on the MCAT 28-35, and had the above average GPA 3.5-4.0 (most likely).

They do not know your scores but according to the law of averages it is probably not that high since the average for pod school is not as high.

If you worked rediculously hard and gave up your life in college to get into med school and look at your neighbor in your class that is in the same place but did not have to "proove" themselves as much you might be bitter as well.

You are totally right. and all this happens because of failed pre-meds joining Podiatry. There are pre-meds who were rejected from every where and they applied Podiatry and started liking it but then there are pre-meds who joined Podiatry because they like 100K sound and white coat attraction. And i have seen many times its because of these people our profession looks down. Many Pre-meds, M1s feel that we are a back-up profession (aka if you fail to secure admission in MD/DO/DDS) we join podiatry. I think this stereotype has to be removed.

 

[spo01]

You are totally right. and all this happens because of failed pre-meds joining Podiatry. There are pre-meds who were rejected from every where and they applied Podiatry and started liking it but then there are pre-meds who joined Podiatry because they like 100K sound and white coat attraction. And i have seen many times its because of these people our profession looks down. Many Pre-meds, M1s feel that we are a back-up profession (aka if you fail to secure admission in MD/DO/DDS) we join podiatry. I think this stereotype has to be removed.

i understand what you're saying but i never really understood it. the term 'failed pre-meds' to me is kind of oxymoronic because anyone can basically get into medical school. nowadays you have so many options: US medical schools, DO medical schools, foreign medical schools.... it may not be your #1 choice but there is no reason why one couldn't get into atleast one of the above. graduating from medical school is a different story though!