Question about research experience...

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kwanny

kwanny

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At this point, I haven't received interview offers from most of the schools I really want to go to, and since the whole app process is coming to an end, I'm considering reapplying next year.

I was analyzing my application to see why some of the schools wouldn't interview me, and the only aspect about my application that falls short compared to others was my research experience, cuz I got none. So I just started working on a research project with a neurosurgeon this year, and so far, it's been going really well.

So I was wondering, what are some of the respectable accomplishments in research? I know publication is one of them. I guess it also would matter whether you were first or second author and also in what journal... but how many publications is really respectable? Somebody mentioned conference. What exactly is that? Is giving a presentation on the research considered as having a conference??

Thanks.

kwanny
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It must be that drive to stay in California? Not to many people give up acceptances to apply again. The process is torture so maybe it would be good to rethink if it is worth it going through it again if you have a place already.
 
Why did you apply to a school that you wouldnt be willing to attend. How are you going to answer next year when they ask why you didnt matriculate?
 
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Exactly!

What you are about to do is way risky.
 
Originally posted by Cerberus
Why did you apply to a school that you wouldnt be willing to attend. How are you going to answer next year when they ask why you didnt matriculate?
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Alright. Some of you are gonna hate me for saying this, but at the time I sent in primaries, I wasn't sure if I really wanted to go to med school. I applied to about 20 schools, planning to think it through this year before I matriculate. Well, I applied to some schools that I wasn't sure I would attend, because if I ended up strongly about going to a med school, I felt like it was important to have options a the end. So I chose 20 schools based on location, student satisfaction, and reputation.

Yeah, i understand the possible consequences as a result of my decision, and i don't expect any of you to follow my train of thought either. I haven't made my decision yet, and I know there's still some time before these "schools" send out more interview invites, but right now, I just need more info on research experience, so that I could really think it through and determine whether it'd be feasible to build a respectable research experience before reapplying next year.

Back to my original questions: how many pub's is considered "respectable?" what is a conference?
 
I think getting just 1 publication and being a first or second author is respectable since not many undergrads have that kind of opportunity. Also, when someone mentions a conference what they probably mean is that they presented their work in a poster form at a national science conference...
 
Kwanny,

Usually you go to a conference to present an abstract or paper in poster or presentation (power point) form. I work in pulmonary medicine and all of the deadlines for abstracts were this past fall. Major conferences start at the end of March and bascially go through May and June. Not sure if it's the same for neuroscience but I wouldn't be surprised. So basically, if you haven't submitted an abstract yet to a society then you probably won't be presenting at a conference.

Papers as you know are always good to have. As for me, I've done just fine saying "Paper is being written Fall 2003" on my apps and in interviews. Docs know it takes forever to get papers out.

The one I'm working on now I'll be lead author but only b/c I've done the research for about 2-3 years now.

In my new job, I'll come out wiht papers but highly doubt I'll be 1st author, but rather somewhere in the middle which is fine but not as impressive.

Where I work in clinical research it's pretty rare that a non-fellow or resident (i.e. a research assistant like me) will be 1st author.

greenie
 
I agree with everyone else. That being said, here is my 0.02.

*Any* publication is respectable. Most undergraduate students do not have any publications from research, even those applying to MSTP with extensive experience. Also, you must keep in mind that it can take anywhere between 3 months-9 months or a year for an article to reviewed, accepted, and published, so unless you are submitting something in the next few months, it will probably not help you. Adcoms will not care about publications until they are exactly that-publications. Manuscripts in preparation and even those that have been submitted or are in revision are not considered until they are "in press."

Attending a national conference to present your work is a good idea. However, the issue with this is funding. If you have access to travel awards, that is great. Otherwise, your advisor would need to pay for your trip. Also, considering that you are just getting into research, I would advise trying to go somewhere that your supervisor also plans to attend.


Treg
 
Originally posted by Misty504
I think getting just 1 publication and being a first or second author is respectable since not many undergrads have that kind of opportunity. Also, when someone mentions a conference what they probably mean is that they presented their work in a poster form at a national science conference...
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Thanks, Misty. I really appreciate it.

But I think I need to clarify whta I mean by "respectable." Man... I know some of you are going to cringe in disgust when I say this, but when i say "respectable," I mean respectable to the eyes of the admissions committee at top schools. My top picks were Penn, Duke, Yale, UCSF, and Stanford this year, and I already got rejected by Duke preinterview, put on hold at UCSF, and haven't heard anything from the other three.

Not getting an interview from any one of these schools, I'm beginning to think that it might be worth it to take another chance next year after buidling a solid experience in research.

Man... I'm not doing too good of a job to explain myself here, but I'd really appreciate it if more people could help me out here.

Thanks again.
 
Originally posted by kwanny
At this point, I haven't received interview offers from most of the schools I really want to go to, and since the whole app process is coming to an end, I'm considering reapplying next year.

I was analyzing my application to see why some of the schools wouldn't interview me, and the only aspect about my application that falls short compared to others was my research experience, cuz I got none. So I just started working on a research project with a neurosurgeon this year, and so far, it's been going really well.

So I was wondering, what are some of the respectable accomplishments in research? I know publication is one of them. I guess it also would matter whether you were first or second author and also in what journal... but how many publications is really respectable? Somebody mentioned conference. What exactly is that? Is giving a presentation on the research considered as having a conference??

Thanks.

kwanny
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Lots of people get into medical school w/o any solid research experience. I think you are taking a big risk. I would really think hard about it. You got into Case which is a solid school.

As to publications, it takes hard work, dediction, and luck to get published, especially 1st or 2nd author.
 
Thanks, greenie and Treg. I really appreciate it.

My research advisor went to Yale MSTP, and he told me he had 14 publications when he applied, so that's why I was asking what was really considered to be "respectable." I guess 2-3 would suffice.

I started on this research project actually about a three months ago, and it's going really well. It's supposed to be published in Journal of Neuroscience around June, and I'm supposed to be the second author. There's a neuroscience fair at my school in February, and my research advisor told me to give a presentation onthe research, so I guess that would be considered as a "conference?" I think if the research goes this well, I might get a fellowship to work at a lab this summer, and get another publication out, possibly as a first author this time.

So, that's why I'm considering reapplying next year. I've gotten interviews from great places like cornell, columbia, ucla, emory, vandy, etc, but at the same time, I was waitlisted at three places, and I'm expecting more waitlists, if not post-interview rejections. It just seems like I'm not as "good" as som eof the other candidates.

I'd appreciate any feedback on this. Thakns again.
 
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A word about publications. I have many friends who are doing research and have been for a couple of years. They still do not have publications whether it be first author or second author.

In other words, there is no guarantee you will have a publication within a year. The most you could do is attend a conference and present some work but I don't think a year is enough to do all that.

Remember if you do apply again in June you may get interviews in Sept or Oct giving you about 7 or 8 months to accomplish something in your research. Really, that doesn't leave too much time.

Perhaps if you would have started a year ago that would have given you a good foundation. Schools will look at your app when you apply and see that you really only have 6 months of research if you apply in June which won't really look that spectacular.
 
Originally posted by Misty504
No, what is considered a conference (by me at least) is (example) the annual Society for Neuroscience conference, where thousands of PhDs, etc. gather round and present their research in a poster or powerpoint form.

http://web.sfn.org/ACSplash.cfm
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Well, I'm making a 4'x3' poster for this presentation, and it's not nearly as big as the neuroscience conference, but still pretty big. I guess that wouldn't count as a "conference" then, huh? :confused:
 
Originally posted by Slickness
Remember if you do apply again in June you may get interviews in Sept or Oct giving you about 7 or 8 months to accomplish something in your research. Really, that doesn't leave too much time.

Perhaps if you would have started a year ago that would have given you a good foundation. Schools will look at your app when you apply and see that you really only have 6 months of research if you apply in June which won't really look that spectacular.
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Yeah, man. You see, the thing is, I'm going to be the second author in this publication that's going to come out in June. Also, I'm going to be presenting our research project at a neuroscience fair (which entails making a big poster and other stuff).

If this research goes well, I might get a fellowship over the summer too, which could possibly lead to another publication in which I'll be the first author.

You see where I'm going now? I just can't determine whether it's worth taking the risk... that's all.
 
It may still be considered a conference but what I really meant was that attending a national conference would be more what you're looking for since you seem to want to do the most "respectable" thing possible.
 
Hey kwanny!

Why don't you update your applications by telling them you are doing research, presentations you will be doing, and any papers you are working on? At least they would know that you are doing research and maybe offer you an interview. Good luck! I hope to go to UPenn and I hope you get an interview there and your other top schools. :)
 
hey, what about 3rd,4th,5th.....etc author? I have a publication as 5th,I think. I have two more coming probably no higher then 4th. This looks lame?? I have contributed to the designs and technical works in these publication.
 
Yeah, man. You see, the thing is, I'm going to be the second author in this publication that's going to come out in June. Also, I'm going to be presenting our research project at a neuroscience fair (which entails making a big poster and other stuff).
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How do you know that you are going to be a 2nd author on a paper coming out in June? Has it been submitted, accepted with your name as #2? If not, you have absolutely no idea how the reviewers are going to react to your paper. None.

Thinking that you could get a 1st author pub out of a summer fellowship-you must be smoking crack. Sorry to be harsh, but I go to grad school in a very strong dept/institution, and it generally takes 2 years of full-time graduate level work to achieve that. If you did get a 1st author during a 4 month summer fellowship, could you please buy a powerball ticket and give it to me at the same time? ;)

If you are only doing research to improve your application, not out of love for it, I have a hard time seeing you achieve these massive goals in such a short time. People that have a real passion for their work are still sometimes not so lucky. Also, what do you plan to do next academic year while you are applying?

I think that you need to just chill out and see how the rest of the application process goes this year. You have had interviews at really good schools, and I am sure that more of them will pan out for you. If you fail at the post-interview stage, I would say that it is not research experience that is holding you back.

Good luck,

Treg
 
i agree with Treg....it usually takes a md(w/strong research exp.) or phD to get 1st author on major pub. So I highly doubt there is any articles out there with a summer student or even a grad student as 1st author. A published article is much more respected if a md or pHd is the 1st and/or 2nd author esp for the big boys of journals.
 
Jesus! Noone is expecting a 1st author pub.

The reason why top schools (esp Stanford, Yale, Chicago, WashU etc) are looking for research is because they want their medical students to continue doing so when they attend.

In other words they are looking for research experience .
The prestige (1st author, quality of work, etc) is just extra bonus.

Doing research so you can fill up your ECs can be dangerous. The school might pick it up (when asked about it in the interview). You may also find yourself in an institution "forcing" you to do research and you may no longer want to.
 
I agree with what many posters above have said, esp. Treg. I've worked in research labs for almost five years now.

The only way to know where you are on a publication is to see the article in the journal. Politics can bump you down in the order very quickly. And if you submit the article and the reviewers want to see more experiments performed are you going to be in the lab to do them? Are you sure you won't have to collaborate with a more senior researcher whose name would move ahead of yours? It can suck, but the order of authors on a paper rarely matches up to the effort put in to produce the data.

And as for getting a first author pub from a summer fellowship...please put the crack pipe down. You may get a paper out of it, but what journal are you going to send it to? Anyone can look and see the impact factor of a journal, or if it is on Medline. You do not want to explain why you published your paper in a journal with a 0.0001 impact factor.

And a neuroscience fair is not a conference. You will be asked where you presented your poster. Fluffing up your app. may get you an interview, but they will see though it and boot you a** right out.

You got into Case. You don't want to go there, turn down the acceptance so someone who does can get in. You want to take a year and strengthen your app, volunteer, travel (and find out what you want to do with your life), save the whales. Don't try and cram 2-3 years of research work into 7-8 months.
 
I agree with Treg and allmight... (will all due respect) you are being overly optimistic to think that you can accomplish enough work over the summer to generate results worthy of a publication. However, I have seen med students get an abstract out of the experience, but those were special cases. In one instance, the P.I. had a large lab studying multiple pathogens and had a lot of big projects and a couple of smaller side ones. The visiting med student worked on one of the small side projects that had piqued the PI's curiousity (based on previous results, so the legwork was already done). Basically everything was set up for the student, they just had to perform a couple of gel shifts make a mutant, assay it, and they were done. Definately not the norm.

Again referring to your summer fellowship: most labs have a strict hierarchy and based on your being new to research (less than a year) or new to their lab, they probably would put you under a post-doc and if you did generate something interesting you can be sure the post-doc's name would go first.

Additionally, would your project be in the same vein as your current work (ie. techniques, organism, cell line etc)? If not, you could spend the first month getting up to speed on growing/manipulating your organism, or culturing your cell line, learning how to do DNAse I protection assays, purifying protein,
OR WHATEVER.

I enjoy research, but believe me I would not defer starting medical school (Case Western) just to reapply in hopes of getting into a more "prestigious" school. Whose to say one publication would have that big of an impact on your overall application. If I were you I would set up an appointment in the spring with a couple of the schools that rejected you and try to pinpoint the reason(s) you weren't accepted. I would think long and hard before I reapplied.

Remember there is something to be said for the old saying "a bird in the hand is worth more than the bush"

I will now step down from my soapbox.

Cheers!
rmp

P.S. If you do decide to reapply, please tell Case they can send me your acceptance:hardy:
 
Getting pubs is really random and I don't think it should be viewed as important as the research experience itself....

In my case, I joined my research group, did the data analysis and helped create our poster. The results were nice and clean and I was able to get my name on our paper. I also got my name on a proceedings paper for another journal. This was after one summer of work in 2001.

After that, I helped to design the protocol for the next study. I helped conduct the study and did all of the data analysis. I found out that we had contradictory results, which forced us to do a follow up study. After doing the follow up study, our results were still contradictory. Now we have decided to do a GIGANTIC study with a ridiculously large sample size to resolve any doubts. If I get published, it will probably be sometime this summer or this fall.

Bottom line - getting pubs in research can depend on factors that are somewhat out of your control. IMHO, the experience is more important.
 
my research work (1.5 years) was presented at 2 conferences. i completed all the experiments. i did the grunt work, my boss did the writing, we both analyzed data. and my name was not even on the poster, not even as an acknowledgement. if we are getting close to publishing, which we may be, i think i will have to beg him to be a 4th author.
woohoo politics!

i think someone needs to get over themselves..
 
Thanks everybody for the help.

I guess the general sentiment is that I prolly wouldn't be able to build my research experience to the "impressive" level in less than a year. Yeah, I don't disagree, but the good thing is that I do feel passionate about this research project, and it's something I'd like to pursue in medical school too. That's why I was thinking about killing two birds with one stone idea...

Well, i know most of you are wondering the same thing, but can someone tell me why none of these "top" schools are interviewing me?

I have pretty good numbers: mid 3.6 overall gpa/ 3.7 sci (from ivy league school), 35L (10v, 12p, 13b). I knew all my letter writers personally, so i'm guessing they were pretty good too. Did a lot of volunteering, especially in underserved areas. Significant singing activities (recitals, solos in concerts, singer of a band, praise leader at church, etc). A few significant leadership positions....

Jeez... after getting waitlisted at 3 places right off the bat, i thought my interviewing skills just sucked, but the thing is, I didn't even get an interview offer from my top choice schools. I was like, what the heck do they want then?? The only answer that I could come up with was research. Now that I'm pretty involved in a research project that I feel passionately about, I'm thinking that I could take this opportunity to strengthen my application adn reapply. Although it may mean taking another year off...

I guess i'm really depressed and confused with the whole process right now. If any of you have more inputs, I'd appreciate them. Thanks.
 
Originally posted by kwanny
Well, i know most of you are wondering the same thing, but can someone tell me why none of these "top" schools are interviewing me?
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Aren't Columbia, Cornell, etc... top schools?
 
Originally posted by bigbaubdi
Aren't Columbia, Cornell, etc... top schools?
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what I mean by "top" schools are the top schools I want to get into... namely stanford, penn, yale, and ucsf...
 
Sorry but how are you certain that you like those schools when you haven't interviewed there?
 
Originally posted by kwanny
what I mean by "top" schools are the top schools I want to get into... namely stanford, penn, yale, and ucsf...
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Why did you apply to "lower tier" medical schools if you have no intention of going? Kinda selfish if I may say so, since you are taking someone else's spot who would love to go to Case Western.

As to why schools are not giving you interviews? Maybe your GPA is too low(Upenn - 3.8 average GPA), maybe a reviewer was in a bad mood that day when he looked over your file, maybe they already have too many singers with volunteer experience. Who knows? There is no rhtym nor rhyme in this process, and what if 1 or 2 years now, even with research publications you are in the same place as you are now or even worse.
 
Originally posted by Tezzie
Sorry but how are you certain that you like those schools when you haven't interviewed there?
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both stanford and penn, I visited when I choosing colleges. was really impressed with both schools. I now have friends who go there for med schools, and they all love their schools.

yale - my research advisor (who's also my mentor) went there for mstp. know a lot of people who go there for undergrad/grad, and they love it. my older bro will prolly go there for law school next year.

ucsf - I haven't been to this school yet, so i'm not completely sure about this schoo. I'm just basing everything on what people have told me aobut the school.
 
Originally posted by kwanny
what I mean by "top" schools are the top schools I want to get into... namely stanford, penn, yale, and ucsf...
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Gotcha...

You have already gotten into Case, which is an excellent med school and you have gotten interviews at Columbia, Cornell, UCLA, etc... which is definitely nothing to sneeze at. Also it is only January, so there is still quite a bit of time left to get interviews/acceptances. I think Columbia sends out admissions decisions sometime in mid-February.
 
kwanny...id love to be in your shoes right now man...

for someone who wasnt sure he wanted to go to medical school you gotta see yourself as extremely fortunate to get all these awesome interviews. you have awesome numbers but so do others out there that are competing for the same schools you are. there is no formula in which if you do this and this you get interviews here at X and Y.

i rather be on a waitlist at a top school and have case as a backup....

man case is a top choice for a good number of people. its an awesome school. everyone on this thread will agree or have already said so. just wait it out man. its only january. the 2nd half is just beginning. to reapply after getting into a good school to me just seems unwise...
 
I just had to post the following, even though it does not at all answer your original query:

I agree with Cerb and others. I get rather annoyed by people who apply to a range of schools and then get dissatisfied when they don't get into a top 10 school but have an accept from another perfectly fine medical school in the US. Unless you have a specific reason to think you would hate it at Case, by all means do not snub the school. My PIs from UCSF think Case was a great school, and I regretted not having applied there (that is, until I got into Pitt). And don't be dissatisfied because you could've done "better" or deserved better. :rolleyes:
+pissed+

<steps down from soapbox>
 
Okay. I definitely don't want this discussion to be confrontational. I'm really sorry if I made some of you angry, but I feel like I'm definitely not the only one thinking about reapplying next year due to similar reasons.

Also, I haven't even made up my mind yet about reapplying. It's just one of the options I'm considering. If I do make a decision to reapply, I'll make sure I withdraw from all the schools (including those from which I accepted and waitlisted), so I don't this discussion to be about how "selfish" or "inconsiderate" I am. As some of you know, I'm in a huge dilemma right now, and I'm just asking for some inputs on it.

I thank all of you who took time to either PM me or write helpful comments on this thread. As I said, I'm sure I'm not the only one feeling the same way. It's definitely going to help others in similar situations.
 
kwanny, I wouldn't recommend withdrawing from all your schools.
If you are gonna reapply, I think you should defer at Case or whatever school for a year. Worst comes to worst, you'll have that school as a backup if things don't go right next year.
 
Originally posted by Kashue
kwanny, I wouldn't recommend withdrawing from all your schools.
If you are gonna reapply, I think you should defer at Case or whatever school for a year. Worst comes to worst, you'll have that school as a backup if things don't go right next year.
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Is that legal???
 
Have you sent letters of interest to schools? Letters of interest may be enough to highlight your application among the haystack of students who just applied and have not actively continued their application via updates or letters of interest. I am not saying that a letter of interest will get you an interview, but I really doubt it can hurt. Just be very thorough in your explanation of why you like the school/program, why it is for you, and how you can fit into the school. You never know what may happen. Good luck! :)
 
Well, now that I got a rejection letter from stanford, my "top" choice school list is down to two.... well, i guess... one now, since penn's sending out invites only up till next week. Damn... those bastards!!
 
http://www.mdapplicants.com/viewprofile.php?id=595

"I made the mistake of applying to schools I wouldn't have actually attended. After getting accepted at Case Western (and two others) and placed on the alternate list at the University of Washington, I decided that I liked UW so much that I deferred my acceptance at Case Western in order to reapply once more at UW (and Stanford). I'll interview at UW on February 4th. Still waiting to hear from Stanford."
 
Originally posted by kwanny
Yeah, man. You see, the thing is, I'm going to be the second author in this publication that's going to come out in June. Also, I'm going to be presenting our research project at a neuroscience fair (which entails making a big poster and other stuff).

If this research goes well, I might get a fellowship over the summer too, which could possibly lead to another publication in which I'll be the first author.

You see where I'm going now? I just can't determine whether it's worth taking the risk... that's all.
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I see. Well that changes a lot then because you would have accomplished a lot in research. It would probably help you a lot if you do decide to apply again.
 
kwanny if you are worried about penn you should call them to verify when they are ending their interview season. i was one of the people who said that penn admissions office told me they would stop sending invitations mid Jan, as per the lady on the phone. but it seems like a bunch of people are now worried about this now, and i feel bad if i gave out wrong info (not intentionally!) so call them to make sure.

edited to add-- about deferring from case and applying again, i used to lurk on SDN before i joined and i remember reading a bunch of threads about an SDN member who i think was in at Columbia but deferred so she could try to apply again at UW b/c she was in state there. dunno what happened with that, but i think it *is* possible, although a bit questionable as to how you go about it...
 
Kwanny,

Seriously, I don't think it's your lack of research experience...I may it can be anything at all! Reapplying is just risky...
 
Originally posted by Lux Aeterna
kwanny if you are worried about penn you should call them to verify when they are ending their interview season. i was one of the people who said that penn admissions office told me they would stop sending invitations mid Jan, as per the lady on the phone. but it seems like a bunch of people are now worried about this now, and i feel bad if i gave out wrong info (not intentionally!) so call them to make sure.
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I just called them, and they confirmed what Lux said that they're wrapping up sending interview invites next week. Damn... maybe i should withdraw so i wouldn't have to get the rejection letter... ;)
 
Originally posted by kwanny
I just called them, and they confirmed what Lux said that they're wrapping up sending interview invites next week. Damn... maybe i should withdraw so i wouldn't have to get the rejection letter... ;)
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At least we have something in common ;). I'm expecting the rejection letter myself.

I don't think ivy leagues like me :rolleyes:.
 
I just got another rejection letter today... from UCSD... after being on "hold" for three months.

Aight folks. I talked to my research advisor today, and he recommended that I apply to fellowships to do a research for a year. If i get the fellowship, it looks like I'll be deferring at Case for a couple of years, retaking the mcats (get rid of the L on my writing score), and reapplying next June for the Class for 2010.

Wish me luck, guys. I think this will be the biggest decision I've made in my life. *sigh*
 
Originally posted by kwanny
Thanks, Misty. I really appreciate it.

But I think I need to clarify whta I mean by "respectable." Man... I know some of you are going to cringe in disgust when I say this, but when i say "respectable," I mean respectable to the eyes of the admissions committee at top schools. My top picks were Penn, Duke, Yale, UCSF, and Stanford this year, and I already got rejected by Duke preinterview, put on hold at UCSF, and haven't heard anything from the other three.

Not getting an interview from any one of these schools, I'm beginning to think that it might be worth it to take another chance next year after buidling a solid experience in research.

Man... I'm not doing too good of a job to explain myself here, but I'd really appreciate it if more people could help me out here.

Thanks again.
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I think big name schools mean nothing in the long term. Just like it doesn't matter where you went to undergrad, it also doesn't matter where you go to medical school. The important thing is to do well in the school you do attend and to enjoy it. I'd attend the school that accepted you and get started on your medical career already- there's a long road ahead of you and it doesn't pay to wait around for an unlikely big name acceptance. :thumbup:
 
Originally posted by Chirurgien
I think big name schools mean nothing in the long term. Just like it doesn't matter where you went to undergrad, it also doesn't matter where you go to medical school. The important thing is to do well in the school you do attend and to enjoy it. I'd attend the school that accepted you and get started on your medical career already- there's a long road ahead of you and it doesn't pay to wait around for an unlikely big name acceptance. :thumbup:
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I totally agree. It'll be nice to attend a brand name school, but the quality of clinical training is probably what matters most at the end.
 
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