Question about US Medical Schools

[seanjohn]

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Here is a site I came across about applicants and their matriculation status to American medical schools in 2005.

http://www.aamc.org/data/facts/2005/2005slrmat.htm

I'm from Canada, and over here, unless you have a 3.8 GPA it is extremely difficult to get into a Canadian medical (or dental) school. The cutoffs for most medical schools here is about 3.6, so if you have anything lower than that your application gets thrown out.

Given these harsh realities of admission, I always considered applying to American schools, because it seems to be significantly easier to gain admission into these programs IF , of course, you're an American citizen. After viewing the above link, I saw that out of about 17,000 spots, only 99 were given to non-US citizens. That sounds extremely low, since there were 759 non-US applicants and only 99 got in, or about 13%.

I'd just like to know if the numbers on this site are accurate, and if indeed there are that few Canadian and other non-US students attending American medical schools.

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

13% acceptance rate is NOT low.

 

[seanjohn]

13% acceptance rate is NOT low.

In Ontario, only about 15% of applicants to Canadian medical school get accepted, so it's around the same percentage of acceptance of non-US citizens to American schools. The matriculation rate for other provinces is undoubtedly similar to that of Ontario...in Canada only the absolute best of the best are accepted.

In any given US state, almost 50% of applicants get accepted somewhere in the US, so it seems significantly easier to get in. I wish I was born in the US, it truly is the land of oppurtunity. 🙁

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

Are you sure about 50% of applicants getting accepted? That sounds WAY too high. I think you're confusing that number with something else. I wouldn't be visiting this forum if I had a 50% chance of getting in. I think the acceptance rate is about 15% for US applicants also.

 

[seanjohn]

Are you sure about 50% of applicants getting accepted? That sounds WAY too high. I think you're confusing that number with something else. I wouldn't be visiting this forum if I had a 50% chance of getting in. I think the acceptance rate is about 15% for US applicants also.

I'm very certain, just look at the link. There were 37,364 applicants to American medical schools, 10,682 of applicants were accepted to a school in-state, and 6,322 were accepted to an American school out of-state. That comes out to a 45.5% acceptance rate for Americans into American medical schools. The acceptance rate of 45% is 3 times higher than the 15% acceptance rate of Canadians into Canadian medical schools.

Unless that site is completely is wrong, which I doubt since it's the Association of American Medical Colleges website, then you and every other American should thank their lucky stars that you've been given such a great oppurtunity by simply being born into such a great country.

Although I love Canada, and proud to be Canadian, sometimes I wish I was born in the US. Granted, Canada is consistently ranked as one of the top three countries to live in year after year in the entire world, but there's simply way more oppurtunity to succeed in the United States, and that's the objective reality, not my subjective opinion.

 

[Law2Doc]

Are you sure about 50% of applicants getting accepted? That sounds WAY too high. I think you're confusing that number with something else. I wouldn't be visiting this forum if I had a 50% chance of getting in. I think the acceptance rate is about 15% for US applicants also.

I think the 50% is pretty accurate and has been pretty consistant over the last few years. A lot of premed weeding out is self imposed based on those with low scores and low MCAT, and of the remainder, about half get in. However that is not the percentage acceptance at a given school. There are many more applications than applicants, and so popular schools obviously tend to get accept far less than 50%. By contrast, state schools that only take in state residents may accept a higher than 50% applicant rate.

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

Well there's no reason for US schools to give up seats to foreigners when they can fill up their seats with qualified US students. Unless you have ridiculous stats/ECs as a foreigner, they have no incentive to accept you over a US candidate, thus the low acceptance rate. So yes you are correct - that coveted American citizenship is something US students shouldn't take it for granted because they have it easy. 😉

 

[Law2Doc]

Well there's no reason for US schools to give up seats to foreigners when they can fill up their seats with qualitifed US students. Unless you have ridiculous stats/ECs as a foreigner, they have no incentive to accept you over a US candidate, thus the low acceptance rate. So yes you are correct - that coveted American citizenship is something US students shouldn't take it for granted because they have it easy. 😉

Yes, the point of US medical school is to satisfy US medical needs, particularly when a shortage is being predicted. There is no question that someone who is a US citizen is more likely to practice in the US, and thus is a better risk in terms of satisfying that need.

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

I think the 50% is pretty accurate and has been pretty consistant over the last few years. A lot of premed weeding out is self imposed based on those with low scores and low MCAT, and of the remainder, about half get in. However that is not the percentage acceptance at a given school. There are many more applications than applicants, and so popular schools obviously tend to get accept far less than 50%. By contrast, state schools that only take in state residents may accept a higher than 50% applicant rate.

LOL I do stand by my statement that I wouldn't be visiting this forum if the acceptance rate is 50%, but since I would like to go to a "good" school where they have much lower acceptance rates (<15%), I won't be gone any time soon. 😀

 

[dr.z]

I think the 50% is pretty accurate and has been pretty consistant over the last few years. A lot of premed weeding out is self imposed based on those with low scores and low MCAT, and of the remainder, about half get in. However that is not the percentage acceptance at a given school. There are many more applications than applicants, and so popular schools obviously tend to get accept far less than 50%. By contrast, state schools that only take in state residents may accept a higher than 50% applicant rate.

I think the 50% is accurate as well.

 

[Rafa]

LOL I do stand by my statement that I wouldn't be visiting this forum if the acceptance rate is 50%, but since I would like to go to a "good" school where they have much lower acceptance rates (<15%), I won't be gone any time soon. 😀

The national acceptance rate *is* 50%, give or take a few. You're misreading "national acceptance rate". That doesn't mean each school in the US accepts 50% of its applicants. It means that approximately 40k students apply to med schools annually, which have a total of about 20k open slots. And for that matter, any medical school within the US is a "good" school.

 

[jbone]

I'm from Canada, and over here, unless you have a 3.8 GPA it is extremely difficult to get into a Canadian medical (or dental) school. The cutoffs for most medical schools here is about 3.6, so if you have anything lower than that your application gets thrown out.

I think this statement is funny. My cousin applied to a large number of US dental schools and 3 Canadian dental schools. Didn't get into any US schools but was accepted into all 3 Canadian schools. And hell no he didn't have a 3.8 or a 3.6 for that matter. Take off you hoser. 🙄

 

[MANTF]

Hopefully here are some answers to your questions:

I do some medical school admissions consulting for Kaplan in the New England area, so hopefully this represents factual reality for you:

1. The overall acceptance rate to U.S. medical schools is just under 50%. However, that is largely inflated by U.S. states that only select applicants from that state or ones that have a higher than 85% in-state preference. It is well-known that typically these schools have a lower than average cut-off for GPA, MCAT, etc.- thus, the reason for lower-than-expected national averages for those same academic criteria. Applying to "pure" medical schools with no in-state preference, you'll find that the acceptance rate is usually somewhere between 10-15%.

2. Having said that, U.S. medical schools almost always prefer a citizen of the U.S. over one from another nation (Canada or others). Nothing against Canada, but most U.S. medical school admissions committees have no perspective from which to evaluate your success in college. It very well may be a reality that your Canadian institution has challenged you and a 3.8 GPA is well-deserved. But without a base of knowledge of that school, what kind of applicants come from there, how grade inflation/deflation plays a role, etc. the admissions committees prefer to make a "safe" decision. Migration back to Canada most likely has something to do with decisions as well.

3. Finally, U.S. medical schools also place significantly more weight on extracurricular activities, volunteer experience, research experience, and the like than our Canadian counterparts. That's not to say that Canadian schools do not, simply that the emphasis is more so in the U.S. You'll find that people with borderline GPAs and MCAT scores for a competitive school are admitted over applicants with better numbers because of this (like myself, for example).

Hope this helps and good luck with everything in the future.

 

[seanjohn]

I think this statement is funny. My cousin applied to a large number of US dental schools and 3 Canadian dental schools. Didn't get into any US schools but was accepted into all 3 Canadian schools. And hell no he didn't have a 3.8 or a 3.6 for that matter. Take off you hoser. 🙄

That's actually pretty funny. Which dental schools in Canada did he get accepted to, and what was his GPA?

I can't wait to laugh at your anecdotal lie. This should be funny.

 

[MANTF]

Rafa is also correct. The national acceptance rate is a value for applicants nationally - not a value that reflects the acceptance rate from each school individually (again, due to the highly competitive nature of schools with no in-state preference or requirement).

 

[p00psicleSTICK]

Hopefully here are some answers to your questions:

I do some medical school admissions consulting for Kaplan in the New England area, so hopefully this represents factual reality for you:

1. The overall acceptance rate to U.S. medical schools is just under 50%. However, that is largely inflated by U.S. states that only select applicants from that state or ones that have a higher than 85% in-state preference. It is well-known that typically these schools have a lower than average cut-off for GPA, MCAT, etc.- thus, the reason for lower-than-expected national averages for those same academic criteria. Applying to "pure" medical schools with no in-state preference, you'll find that the acceptance rate is usually somewhere between 10-15%.

2. Having said that, U.S. medical schools almost always prefer a citizen of the U.S. over one from another nation (Canada or others). Nothing against Canada, but most U.S. medical school admissions committees have no perspective from which to evaluate your success in college. It very well may be a reality that your Canadian institution has challenged you and a 3.8 GPA is well-deserved. But without a base of knowledge of that school, what kind of applicants come from there, how grade inflation/deflation plays a role, etc. the admissions committees prefer to make a "safe" decision. Migration back to Canada most likely has something to do with decisions as well.

3. Finally, U.S. medical schools also place significantly more weight on extracurricular activities, volunteer experience, research experience, and the like than our Canadian counterparts. That's not to say that Canadian schools do not, simply that the emphasis is more so in the U.S. You'll find that people with borderline GPAs and MCAT scores for a competitive school are admitted over applicants with better numbers because of this (like myself, for example).

Hope this helps and good luck with everything in the future.

Thanks for the info MANTF. I have some questions for you - would it help significantly for foreign applicants to tell med schools that they wish to stay in the US and practice medicine here as opposed to going back to their own country? And are top 20 schools more generous towards foreign applicants as opposed to others?

 

[jbone]

That's actually pretty funny. Which dental schools in Canada did he get accepted to, and what was his GPA?

I can't wait to laugh at your anecdotal lie. This should be funny.

My lie? what a ****. He's a third year at Dalhousie in Nova Scotia d-bag. Since you seem to know all about him, why don't you tell me. Believe me, his gpa was far below what you quoted. And his DAT was average too.
Just the facts p-ditty, just the facts. Would you like me to send you a picture too? 🙄

 

[seanjohn]

Hopefully here are some answers to your questions:

I do some medical school admissions consulting for Kaplan in the New England area, so hopefully this represents factual reality for you:

1. The overall acceptance rate to U.S. medical schools is just under 50%. However, that is largely inflated by U.S. states that only select applicants from that state or ones that have a higher than 85% in-state preference. It is well-known that typically these schools have a lower than average cut-off for GPA, MCAT, etc.- thus, the reason for lower-than-expected national averages for those same academic criteria. Applying to "pure" medical schools with no in-state preference, you'll find that the acceptance rate is usually somewhere between 10-15%.

2. Having said that, U.S. medical schools almost always prefer a citizen of the U.S. over one from another nation (Canada or others). Nothing against Canada, but most U.S. medical school admissions committees have no perspective from which to evaluate your success in college. It very well may be a reality that your Canadian institution has challenged you and a 3.8 GPA is well-deserved. But without a base of knowledge of that school, what kind of applicants come from there, how grade inflation/deflation plays a role, etc. the admissions committees prefer to make a "safe" decision. Migration back to Canada most likely has something to do with decisions as well.

3. Finally, U.S. medical schools also place significantly more weight on extracurricular activities, volunteer experience, research experience, and the like than our Canadian counterparts. That's not to say that Canadian schools do not, simply that the emphasis is more so in the U.S. You'll find that people with borderline GPAs and MCAT scores for a competitive school are admitted over applicants with better numbers because of this (like myself, for example).

Hope this helps and good luck with everything in the future.

Thank you for your post, I appreciate it. While I agree that overall American schools place more emphasis on non-academic virtues, and Canadian schools place more emphasis on academic virtues such as GPA and MCAT scores, there are some schools such as McMaster and Ottawa that place a greater emphasis on extracurricular activities. Even still, the average GPA of matriculants into these schools is about 3.7, as opposed to the average GPA of all other schools, which is around 3.82.

Also, I believe there is a collective ignorance in the United States about the educational standards and difficulty of Canadian educational insitutions. I e-mailed some representatives from American schools, and they told me that Canadian students do exceptionally well in American schools, and that they believe an 80% received in a Canadian school is equivalent to an 85% at an American school. (Although they still count that 80% as an 80%.)

When assessing the competance and performance on standardized academic tests in grade school throughout the world, Canadian children consistently score higher than their American counterparts. Whereas Canada ranks 7th in the world overall in terms of academic performance by Canadian students, and in the quality of Canadian education, the United States ranks 25th, which is startling considering the US is the richest and most successful country in the world. You'd think that their educational standards would be at the top, or near the top of the world, but that's clearly not the case.

 

[seanjohn]

My lie? what a ****. He's a third year at Dalhousie in Nova Scotia d-bag. Since you seem to know all about him, why don't you tell me. Believe me, his gpa was far below what you quoted. And his DAT was average too.
Just the facts p-ditty, just the facts. Would you like me to send you a picture too? 🙄

What an immature little child. Grow up and get a life.

 

[geofb]

The national acceptance rate *is* 50%, give or take a few. You're misreading "national acceptance rate". That doesn't mean each school in the US accepts 50% of its applicants. It means that approximately 40k students apply to med schools annually, which have a total of about 20k open slots. And for that matter, any medical school within the US is a "good" school.

40k apply, but 60k take the MCAT. So approx 1/3 of MCAT takers get accepted. Also, good is relative, and not exclusive to the US. Clearly Harvard and Toronto are both better than Albany Med. I get irritated by the whole any US med school is good idea.

 

[seanjohn]

40k apply, but 60k take the MCAT. So approx 1/3 of MCAT takers get accepted. Also, good is relative, and not exclusive to the US. Clearly Harvard and Toronto are both better than Albany Med. I get irritated by the whole any US med school is good idea.

Well I think any American school is better than a medical school in the Caribbean, but I guess that's just stating the obvious.

 

[Rafa]

40k apply, but 60k take the MCAT. So approx 1/3 of MCAT takers get accepted. Also, good is relative, and not exclusive to the US. Clearly Harvard and Toronto are both better than Albany Med. I get irritated by the whole any US med school is good idea.

You can't really use the 1/3rd argument, because that suggests 1/3rd of people who take the MCAT decide not to apply anyway. If you were to factor in non-applicants, we could play with percentages all day long (should we consider *all* pre-meds? How about high schoolers who want to become doctors? et al). For a percentage of students who get into X to be meaningful, you can only consider students who actually *apply* to X.

If you want to become a doctor, it doesn't matter whether you get into Harvard, Toronto, or Albany Med. I never implied or stated "good" meant "only in the US". Rather, I was countering stickle's assertment that he wanted to go to a "good" school (one that rejected a lot of people, which he seemed to regard as the sign of one).

 

[star22]

I'm from Canada, and over here, unless you have a 3.8 GPA it is extremely difficult to get into a Canadian medical (or dental) school. The cutoffs for most medical schools here is about 3.6, so if you have anything lower than that your application gets thrown out.
.

That doesn't seem true.... According to MSAR, University of British Columbia states that their average GPA is 82.16% (that seems pretty mediocre.... B- by our standards or 2.7) and their median MCAT is 9,10,10,P (again pretty mediocre). Plus, they matriculated 190 people from 900 applicants.... that seems like better odds than many American public schools.

Most of the Canadian schools don't give their averages in the MSAR, so who knows what their stats are like. It seems to me like it would be easier for you to get BC residency and apply there than trying to get into a US school as an international student.

 

[seanjohn]

That doesn't seem true.... According to MSAR, University of British Columbia states that their average GPA is 82.16% (that seems pretty mediocre.... B- by our standards or 2.7) and their median MCAT is 9,10,10,P (again pretty mediocre). Plus, they matriculated 190 people from 900 applicants.... that seems like better odds than many American public schools.

Most of the Canadian schools don't give their averages in the MSAR, so who knows what their stats are like. It seems to me like it would be easier for you to get BC residency and apply there than trying to get into a US school as an international student.

Star, an 82.16% average, is equivalent to about a 3.8 GPA in Canada, which is a straight A average.

 

[Rafa]

...and their median MCAT is 9,10,10,P (again pretty mediocre). .

That isn't mediocre at all. The national MCAT average in the US is also below 30. The MCAT average for most state schools in the US hovers at or around 30.

 

[jbone]

What an immature little child. Grow up and get a life.

thanks dad. I'll work on that. 👍
No comment on my "lie"? guess not.

 

[star22]

Thank you for your post, I appreciate it. While I agree that overall American schools place more emphasis on non-academic virtues, and Canadian schools place more emphasis on academic virtues such as GPA and MCAT scores, there are some schools such as McMaster and Ottawa that place a greater emphasis on extracurricular activities. Even still, the average GPA of matriculants into these schools is about 3.7, as opposed to the average GPA of all other schools, which is around 3.82.

Also, I believe there is a collective ignorance in the United States about the educational standards and difficulty of Canadian educational insitutions. I e-mailed some representatives from American schools, and they told me that Canadian students do exceptionally well in American schools, and that they believe an 80% received in a Canadian school is equivalent to an 85% at an American school. (Although they still count that 80% as an 80%.)

When assessing the competance and performance on standardized academic tests in grade school throughout the world, Canadian children consistently score higher than their American counterparts. Whereas Canada ranks 7th in the world overall in terms of academic performance by Canadian students, and in the quality of Canadian education, the United States ranks 25th, which is startling considering the US is the richest and most successful country in the world. You'd think that their educational standards would be at the top, or near the top of the world, but that's clearly not the case.

If I had a straight 85% in my classes as an undergrad, I'd have a 3.0 GPA.... not very competitive for American med schools.

 

[Rafa]

If I had a straight 85% in my classes as an undergrad, I'd have a 3.0 GPA.... not very competitive for American med schools.

The scaling is different. Not every country operates on the US means of 90> = A, 80> = B, etc.

 

[star22]

That isn't mediocre at all. The national MCAT average in the US is also below 30. The MCAT average for most state schools in the US hovers at or around 30.

My point is, contrary to what the OP has said about Canadian schools being more competitive than American schools, it doesn't seem much different.

 

[MANTF]

Thank you for your post, I appreciate it. While I agree that overall American schools place more emphasis on non-academic virtues, and Canadian schools place more emphasis on academic virtues such as GPA and MCAT scores, there are some schools such as McMaster and Ottawa that place a greater emphasis on extracurricular activities. Even still, the average GPA of matriculants into these schools is about 3.7, as opposed to the average GPA of all other schools, which is around 3.82.

Also, I believe there is a collective ignorance in the United States about the educational standards and difficulty of Canadian educational insitutions. I e-mailed some representatives from American schools, and they told me that Canadian students do exceptionally well in American schools, and that they believe an 80% received in a Canadian school is equivalent to an 85% at an American school. (Although they still count that 80% as an 80%.)

When assessing the competance and performance on standardized academic tests in grade school throughout the world, Canadian children consistently score higher than their American counterparts. Whereas Canada ranks 7th in the world overall in terms of academic performance by Canadian students, and in the quality of Canadian education, the United States ranks 25th, which is startling considering the US is the richest and most successful country in the world. You'd think that their educational standards would be at the top, or near the top of the world, but that's clearly not the case.

As far as telling a U.S. school that you would like to stay in the U.S post-medical education and training, that would certainly be advised. That would provide a unique angle in something like a personal statement or secondary application essays. However, you have to realize that every non-U.S. citizen applicant has been advised to say the same thing! For it to work (just like every answer in med school applications), it's important for you to be specific and tell admissions committees not simply that you'd like to practice medicine in the United States, but why you would choose not to return to Canada and how the U.S. would better suit your medical education and training goals.

With regards to the U.S. educational system, I'm not really sure that it's totally relevant to the topic-- at least not in the way that you might think. No matter how Canadian schools compare to American institutions on standardized testing, the reality is that your decision for admission is not made by an objective third party. Rather, it's made by Americans at American schools. That may seem like "collective ignorance"--and it very well may be-- but those are the same people that make a decision on you. That's a big part of getting into medical school- knowing who your audience is and presenting yourself in a way that resonates with a human admissions committee. Of course, this doesn't mean that this is the way it is at all American schools, or possibly not even the majority; it's just the way some admissions committees might see you. I'm just trying to provide you with some insight on why the numbers seem to be low for Canadian resident who seem to be better qualified in terms of scholastic quantities.

However, from our exchanges, you seem to be well spoken and very intelligent. And as I tell everyone who comes into my classroom the first day at Kaplan: no matter who you are or where you're from if you can show admission committees that you have the intelligence, compassion, and determination to study medicine, there will be a place for you somewhere.

 

[seanjohn]

If I had a straight 85% in my classes as an undergrad, I'd have a 3.0 GPA.... not very competitive for American med schools.

Well if you had a straight 85% average at the University of Toronto, where I attend, you'd have a 3.9 GPA. That obviously means that is much harder to get an 85% at a Canadian university than at an American university.

90-100 = 4.0 or an A+
85-89= 3.9 or an A
80-84%= 3.7 or an A-
77-79%=3.3 or a B+
73-76%=3.0 or a B
70-72%= 2.7 or a B-
67-69%= 2.3 or C+
63-66%= 2.0 or a C
60-62= 1.7 or a C-
57-59= 1.3 or a D+
53-56= 1.0 or a D
50-52= 0.7 or a D-
under 50 = 0 or a F

Of course it is not to say that American schools are inferior, or vice versa, I don't think that's relevant to this topic, but the grading scale is different which explains the discrepancy.

 

[star22]

The scaling is different. Not every country operates on the US means of 90> = A, 80> = B, etc.

OK, then it seems easier to get A's there and maybe a 3.8 in Canada is more like a 3.5-3.6 in the US, which is the average of students that get accepted here... again, Canada doesn't seem more competitive.

 

[Rafa]

OK, then it seems easier to get A's there and maybe a 3.8 in Canada is more like a 3.5-3.6 in the US, which is the average of students that get accepted here... again, Canada doesn't seem more competitive.

On the contrary, it's probably *harder* to get A's there than here. It's similar to the scaling system (I believe) in India, where the schools are definitely not cakewalks. The problem is that you're looking at it from a US-grading scale perspective. For example, if you have a shoe that says "Size 11" in the US, and "size 55" for China, does that mean that Chinese feet are 1/5th the size of US feet? Hardly. It's a reflection of different scales.

 

[seanjohn]

As far as telling a U.S. school that you would like to stay in the U.S post-medical education and training, that would certainly be advised. That would provide a unique angle in something like a personal statement or secondary application essays. However, you have to realize that every non-U.S. citizen applicant has been advised to say the same thing! For it to work (just like every answer in med school applications), it's important for you to be specific and tell admissions committees not simply that you'd like to practice medicine in the United States, but why you would choose not to return to Canada and how the U.S. would better suit your medical education and training goals.

With regards to the U.S. educational system, I'm not really sure that it's totally relevant to the topic-- at least not in the way that you might think. No matter how Canadian schools compare to American institutions on standardized testing, the reality is that your decision for admission is not made by an objective third party. Rather, it's made by Americans at American schools. That may seem like "collective ignorance"--and it very well may be-- but those are the same people that make a decision on you. That's a big part of getting into medical school- knowing who your audience is and presenting yourself in a way that resonates with a human admissions committee. Of course, this doesn't mean that this is the way it is at all American schools, or possibly not even the majority; it's just the way some admissions committees might see you. I'm just trying to provide you with some insight on why the numbers seem to be low for Canadian resident who seem to be better qualified in terms of scholastic quantities.

However, from our exchanges, you seem to be well spoken and very intelligent. And as I tell everyone who comes into my classroom the first day at Kaplan: no matter who you are or where you're from if you can show admission committees that you have the intelligence, compassion, and determination to study medicine, there will be a place for you somewhere.

Excellent post, that was very well said. Thank you for the advice, and your kind words. I completely agree with everything you wrote.

How are you finding medical school?

 

[Law2Doc]

Well if you had a straight 85% average at the University of Toronto, where I attend, you'd have a 3.9 GPA. That obviously means that is much harder to get an 85% at a Canadian university than at an American university.

90-100 = 4.0 or an A+
85-89= 3.9 or an A
80-84%= 3.7 or an A-
77-79%=3.3 or a B+
73-76%=3.0 or a B
70-72%= 2.7 or a B-
67-69%= 2.3 or C+
63-66%= 2.0 or a C
60-62= 1.7 or a C-
57-59= 1.3 or a D+
53-56= 1.0 or a D
50-52= 0.7 or a D-
under 50 = 0 or a F

We have this system here too, but we call it grade inflation. Based on what you have posted, it is hard to say without some evidence that it is "harder to get an 85%" under the Canadian system -- and it seems absolutely appropriate for schools to downgrade the value the GPA of Canadians if, as you suggest, those with a 3.7 have mastered a lower percentage of the material as their US counterparts. In the US, for example, if you master a mere 80% of the material, you usually get a B-, plain and simple, unless graded on a curve, in which case you could do better or worse, depending on your classmates. Since percentages of material mastered is a pretty objective transferable yardstick, I have no idea why you think that achieving that is harder north of the border.
I also like the notion that we treat the GPA like the currency -- i.e. you have a 3.7 "Canadian", but you have to apply an exchange rate to get your lower, US score.

 

[star22]

On the contrary, it's probably *harder* to get A's there than here. It's similar to the scaling system (I believe) in India, where the schools are definitely not cakewalks. The problem is that you're looking at it from a US-grading scale perspective. For example, if you have a shoe that says "Size 11" in the US, and "size 55" for China, does that mean that Chinese feet are 1/5th the size of US feet? Hardly. It's a reflection of different scales.

I agree that the scale is different.... so lets defer to the MCAT which is scaled the same for everyone. And it appears that the average scores seem about the same for both countries. Which, is why I have been suggesting that the competitiveness seems comparable.

 

[Rafa]

I agree that the scale is different.... so lets defer to the MCAT which is scaled the same for everyone. And it appears that the average scores seem about the same for both countries. Which, is why I have been suggesting that the competitiveness seems comparable.

I agree - the MCAT scores are quite comparable. I honestly don't know if it's harder for Can students to get into Can schools than it is for US folk to get into US schools. In the end, I imagine it simply depends on # of applicants/# of slots.

 

[MANTF]

Excellent post, that was very well said. Thank you for the advice, and your kind words. I completely agree with everything you wrote.

How are you finding medical school?

Like anything else, if you put your work in and manage your time it's not that bad. Perhaps the greatest thing I've learned is that it's extremely competitive to gain admission, but once your in it's just a more intense and concentrated undergraduate science program (OK, OK, a much more intense and concentrated science program). Like you hear, it's not the material, but the volume that is the hard part. I absolutely agree with that.

Good luck with everything!

 

[JonnyG]

Well if you had a straight 85% average at the University of Toronto, where I attend, you'd have a 3.9 GPA. That obviously means that is much harder to get an 85% at a Canadian university than at an American university.

90-100 = 4.0 or an A+
85-89= 3.9 or an A
80-84%= 3.7 or an A-
77-79%=3.3 or a B+
73-76%=3.0 or a B
70-72%= 2.7 or a B-
67-69%= 2.3 or C+
63-66%= 2.0 or a C
60-62= 1.7 or a C-
57-59= 1.3 or a D+
53-56= 1.0 or a D
50-52= 0.7 or a D-
under 50 = 0 or a F

Of course it is not to say that American schools are inferior, or vice versa, I don't think that's relevant to this topic, but the grading scale is different which explains the discrepancy.

This is really huurting your cause. You are stating that you only need to know 50% of the material to pass. Man I think you would be pretty screwed if your doctor only knew 50% of Anatomy.

That being said the two countries cannot be compare. The larger the population becomes the harder it is to provide services and education. Canada's smaller population allows it to do more. Plus there are completely different demographics in the two countries.

Finally, foreign medical students aren't highly accepted in the US because they need to show that they can pay for the education without government loans. Many cannot, those that come or more affluent and probably attended the better schools and such, so they will do better in medical school here.

 

[geofb]

You can't really use the 1/3rd argument, because that suggests 1/3rd of people who take the MCAT decide not to apply anyway. If you were to factor in non-applicants, we could play with percentages all day long (should we consider *all* pre-meds? How about high schoolers who want to become doctors? et al). For a percentage of students who get into X to be meaningful, you can only consider students who actually *apply* to X.

Of those that applied, 80-90% of US seniors matched in neurosurgery.

If you want to become a doctor, it doesn't matter whether you get into Harvard, Toronto, or Albany Med. I never implied or stated "good" meant "only in the US". Rather, I was countering stickle's assertment that he wanted to go to a "good" school (one that rejected a lot of people, which he seemed to regard as the sign of one).

re: harvard, toronto and albany med, it DOES matter, quite a bit. The fact that you get the same degree at the end and will be able to see patients once you're done with everything DOESN'T mean the education is equivalent. There is a MAJOR difference between top and bottom tier med schools.

 

[deuist]

since I would like to go to a "good" school where they have much lower acceptance rates (<15%), I won't be gone any time soon.

Many U.S. medical schools have acceptance rates that are less than 15%. From the U.S. News rankings, only 3 of the top 50 schools had acceptance rates that were higher than 15%.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Well if you had a straight 85% average at the University of Toronto, where I attend, you'd have a 3.9 GPA. That obviously means that is much harder to get an 85% at a Canadian university than at an American university.

Actually, your conclusion is wrong.

Having TAKEN premed courses at both US (Ivy League undergrad) + Canadian institutions (during a summer internship I received), I can objectively compare both American and Canadian undergraduate institutions. I found it much much more challenging to get the A in the American school than the 85% up in Canada, especially since I was put on a curve with the other 800 people in the class in Canada. My colleagues were at a much higher level in America, but perhaps that is due to the nature of the undergrads who were already selected in the first place [keep in mind that top-10 undergrad schools have, on average, 10-15% acceptance rate, while the University of Toronto accepts nearly all those who apply and who fare decently well in high school]. The pool is quite simply different. I know that if I had gone to the University of Toronto for a bachelor's degree, I would have a 3.9+, but it was the struggle of a lifetime for many premeds to make a 3.7.

The grading systems are VASTLY DIFFERENT. You cannot compare apples and oranges. With that said, you are in a better position to apply to American schools because of your "relatively higher GPA". However, you need to "walk the walk" with your MCAT score. Nearly everyone I know who had a 3.8+ from a competitive American school made 36+ on their MCAT, and I know that there aren't as many 36+ people from the Canadian 3.8 demographic, anecdotally and simply from entering statistics. The MCAT is the test which evens everyone out. Post when you receive your score.

This is NO REFLECTION on the caliber, teaching level, or difficulty of the courses, you're going to get a decent education anywhere you go. It's simply an issue of grade reporting.

The error that has led to your mistaken conclusion is that a Canadian GPA does not represent the same thing as an American one.

Oh, and you know what? The University of Toronto med school, when calculating GPA for entrance purposes, DROPS THE LOWEST GRADES of every year. If only I had applied, I would have a 4.0 in their eyes. No American medical school has a "drop lowest grades" policy.

Also, when you look at acceptance rates, you have to look at each school on an individual basis. You can't lump them all together, because there are private schools and state schools. State schools want physicians to stay in state at any cost, and will matriculate a large # of people from that particular state. The education might be a little different, maybe focused more towards primary care. West Virginia State medical school is going to be a lot different than elite northeast private school X. Eliminate the state schools from your data pool, eliminate private schools which focus on specific populations (like Morehouse, Meharry, and Howard are historically black, and cater towards serving the African American/underserved population in a more primary care role), and see what you are left with. The reality is significantly different. Go ahead and apply. I'm sure if you receive a high enough MCAT score, you'll be able to make it to a good private med school. Once you get there, you'll see that your classmates are by no means idiots and you'll be able to appreciate their intellectual strengths a lot more than you are now.

 

[geofb]

Stop bitching, because I guarantee you that if you had pursued an American undergraduate degree, your GPA would be lower on paper.

Whoa there tiger! I think you went to far there.

 

[wAxIe]

Of course it is not to say that American schools are inferior

This is exactly your point from your first post.

You sit here basically calling Canadian schools impenetrable, US schools by inference, are inferior or easier to get into. 🙄

You then attack jbone for giving you a specific example, using his own cousin, that they aren't impenetrable, then instead of answering his question, you call him childish? What is your point?

Ok everybody, Canadian schools are the hardest to get into, you are all mediocre students because you wish to attend school at lower institutions such as those in the US. 🙄 Happy? What a dork.

 

[wAxIe]

Actually, your conclusion is wrong.

Having TAKEN premed courses at both US (Ivy League undergrad) + Canadian institutions (during a summer internship I received), I can objectively compare both American and Canadian undergraduate institutions. I found it much much more challenging to get the A in the American school than the 85% up in Canada, especially since I was put on a curve with the other 800 people in the class in Canada. My colleagues were at a much higher level in America, but perhaps that is due to the nature of the undergrads who were already selected in the first place [keep in mind that top-10 undergrad schools have, on average, 10-15% acceptance rate, while the University of Toronto accepts nearly all those who apply and who fare decently well in high school]. The pool is quite simply different. I know that if I had gone to the University of Toronto for a bachelor's degree, I would have a 3.9+, but it was the struggle of a lifetime for many premeds to make a 3.7.

The grading systems are VASTLY DIFFERENT. You cannot compare apples and oranges. With that said, you are in a better position to apply to American schools because of your "relatively higher GPA". However, you need to "walk the walk" with your MCAT score. Nearly everyone I know who had a 3.8+ from a competitive American school made 36+ on their MCAT, and I know that there aren't as many 36+ people from the Canadian 3.8 demographic, anecdotally and simply from entering statistics. The MCAT is the test which evens everyone out. Post when you receive your score.

This is NO REFLECTION on the caliber, teaching level, or difficulty of the courses, you're going to get a decent education anywhere you go. It's simply an issue of grade reporting.

The error that has led to your mistaken conclusion is that a Canadian GPA does not represent the same thing as an American one.

Oh, and you know what? The University of Toronto med school, when calculating GPA for entrance purposes, DROPS THE LOWEST GRADES of every year. If only I had applied, I would have a 4.0 in their eyes. No American medical school has a "drop lowest grades" policy.

Also, when you look at acceptance rates, you have to look at each school on an individual basis. You can't lump them all together, because there are private schools and state schools. State schools want physicians to stay in state at any cost, and will matriculate a large # of people from that particular state. The education might be a little different, maybe focused more towards primary care. West Virginia State medical school is going to be a lot different than elite northeast private school X. Eliminate the state schools from your data pool, eliminate private schools which focus on specific populations (like Morehouse, Meharry, and Howard are historically black, and cater towards serving the African American/underserved population in a more primary care role), and see what you are left with. The reality is significantly different. Go ahead and apply. I'm sure if you receive a high enough MCAT score, you'll be able to make it to a good private med school. Once you get there, you'll see that your classmates are by no means idiots and you'll be able to appreciate their intellectual strengths a lot more than you are now.

👍 👍

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Whoa there tiger! I think you went to far there.

I really don't think so. However, it is conjecture, especially since I don't know anything about the original poster. It was directed more towards the tons of generic Canadian applicants I have met who have the same gripe, but are clearly missing a little piece in their logic. Upon reflection, I edited out that statement.

 

[Rafa]

re: harvard, toronto and albany med, it DOES matter, quite a bit. The fact that you get the same degree at the end and will be able to see patients once you're done with everything DOESN'T mean the education is equivalent. There is a MAJOR difference between top and bottom tier med schools.

It doesn't matter if you want to be a doctor. If you want to pursue academic research, it matters more. If there's a particular specialty you're gunning for, or a particular region of the country you'd rather practice in once done, it matters more. But if you want to be a doctor, any medical school in the country will get you there. You keep saying it matters, but you don't say how, or why.

 

[DoctorPardi]

I agree with anon I don't think there is anyway you can say a 3.7 in america isn't much more difficult than a 3.7 in canada. The scale is the proof, no matter how hard or easy the classes are, it is about the % of the material you know.

So I'm not saying that canadians are stupid, I am sure if you put canada on the american system or vice-versa there would be people of each country with the same GPA and it would probably be akin to the size of the population. That is if America has 300 million people and 5% had 3.8GPAs then I wouldn't be surprised if Canada didn't have 5% with 3.8 GPA's under our system either.

Also I think one thing that is harder for canadians is that there are simply not enough medical school spots. America there are 100+ medical schools and I think around 20,000 seats available. Also considering state schools preference towards residents I think American schools might be easier to get into. Although, if you converted an average american applicant's grades into the canadian GPA he might be significantly more competitive.

Anyway who knows, who cares, canadians have free heathcare so they win.

 

[anon-y-mouse]

Of those that applied, 80-90% of US seniors matched in neurosurgery.

That is also because there is a tremendous amount of academic advising that goes into place when applying for residency. Students do not go through the residency matching process willy nilly. Just because you WANT to be a neurosurgeon doesn't mean you rank/interview, because if you have no shot, you're most likely NOT going to apply. Students have extensive meetings with their deans... the dean's letter is at least 4 pages long! It's a very very directed process. That 85% has probably been coached and convinced by med school deans to *apply*, because they have a good shot. Speaking of statistics, if you look at the 15% who DID NOT MATCH, their Step 1 average score was 216, a decidedly uncompetitive score, especially since "220+" is the functional equivalent of saying "33+ on the MCAT". This 15% probably did not take their deans' advice. Of the 85% who did match, the average was about 236 on Step 1, which is a very very competitive score.

 

[dilated]

That isn't mediocre at all. The national MCAT average in the US is also below 30. The MCAT average for most state schools in the US hovers at or around 30.

This is true, but the state schools represent the lowest MCATs. There aren't any WUSTLs in Canada with 36 average MCATs. The Canadian system seems to put more weight on GPA than MCAT.