question~~ all the students out there~~

[crazy about the world]

ok.. i'm a m1 student in korea right now~~ and my club is doing this research about

1. the differences of med school curriculums and
2. the ways to make it better for the student and
3. also look at some differences between the many countries out there~~

well.. my main question is

1. how are the basic sciences lectured in your school?
2. what is the good/bad part of being lectured that way?

in my school, we learn our basic science over the 1st year and the first quarter of the second year (i think ) right now.. we have anatomy, neuroanatomy, biochemisty, physiology, and histology all at once.. we learn these subjects till the third quarter and the subjects change.. lectures in the morning and labs in the afternoon.. (8hrs of class everyday!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> ) and attendance is mandatory.. (they take away points for that )

well, all you guys (and gals) out there help~~

thanks in advance~~

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[Long Hair and a Beard]

We learn anatomy, physiology, and biochem in the first year. Embroyology and microanat are taught the whole year, but neuroanat is started only from the second semester, ie only six months.

Gross anatomy is mostly in dissection hall where tutors give demonstrations to groups of ~10 people on each table, and we dissect the cadavers.

There are lectures to cover the rest, as well as lectures in physio and biochem. They are 1 hr each and audio-visual aids are extensively used. Including transparency projector, and slide projector. Very less black board teaching though. Very graphic, but I somehow prefer black board teahing. Those lectures turn into a monologue by the lecturer in dark with minimum interaction, not even eye contact with students.

We have PBLs in physiology, one for each major system. It's kinda experimental feature, and only a few topics are covered that way. It's a great way of learning, but unfortunately I didn't like the way we went about it. We were actually left to do our own research in the library, with the result that we ended up taking the PBL days as holidays.

And we got no compulsion to attend lectures. But perhaps ours is the only college in India to allow that.

And yes, about the practicals...

Practicals in physio were fun, and very stimulating, and very clinically relevant. We are still asked all those things in final year that we learned in the first.

And practicals in biochem were a bit boring. Almost every experiment involved mixing some fluids, rotating it in a centrifuge, mixing some more fluids, and checking the reading on colorimeter.

Anything else you'd want to know?

 

[crazy about the world]

hey~~ long hair, thanks for the reply~~

umm.. another question though~~ what exactly is a PBL??
our lectures are almost totally dull w/o much visual aids
and umm, do you have all the subjects at once or is it like 8 weeks of anatomy and another 8 weeks of biochem?

again thanks~~ gam sa hap ni da (uh.. that's thanks in korean )

 

[crazy about the world]

oh yeah, and long hair~~

who's the artist of your avatar?? cool picture~

 

[DOtobe]

Does this question apply to US schools as well? If so...

At my school we have all of our core science classes in the first SEMESTER (anatomy, embryology, histology, pharmacology, pathology, micro, physio, biochem) and then from there on we have systems. In our second semester of our first year we have dermatology, musculoskeletal, and neurosensory systems, then in our second year we have cardiovascular, respiratory, renal, endocrine, digestive, and reproductive systems.

I'm in the lecture-discussion pathway at my school, which is 6-8 hours of lecture every day (depending on the day) with some 3-hour anatomy labs thrown in. I guess I'm happy with the pathway I chose.

Hope I was helpful...

 

[Stormreaver]

We have an old-fashioned though effective curriculum structure.

Over our 5-year MB,BS course, the first 2 years are devoted to Anatomy, Physiology and Biochemistry.
ANATOMY: We had 2-hour dissection sessions & demonstrations every day, supplemented by 2-3 gross anat. lectures a week. We also had 1 histology lecture and one lab every week, as well as embryology lectures. Neuroanatomy was taught as a combined unit in lectures, demonstrations and taking over dissection time, with essentially all other anatomy activities suspended for the 1-month period. Gross Anat was taught as 4 regions (Lower Limb, Upper Limb, Abdomen/Thorax/Pelvis, Head/Neck) plus Neuroanat. Each regio was subdivided into 5 "sub-stages" with a written, oral and OSCE-style "stage" at the end. the record was carried over into the final exam, but no definite marks were assigned.

PHYSIOLOGY: We had 6 physiology lectures and one practical a week, covering topics system-wise over 2 years, with tests regularly scheduled, usually system-wise. We also had tutorial-cum-oral evaluations every week.

BIOCHEM: This was probably underemphasized in our course. Only 3 lectures a week, plus one practical. Oral and written tests after each topic.

The lectures were mainly old-style didactic sessions; since we have 200-220 people per class there isn't much interactivity. The practicals and tutorials were better.

Our third year covers two basic subjects: Pharmacology and Forensic Medicine, plus some time in the hospital (1 basic clinical lecture a day plus 2-3 hours in the hospital learning clinical skills). Pharmacology again is covered using lectures and practicals.

Fourth year increases clinical time, to about half a day in the hospital, and increasingly advanced clinical lectures, with Pathology and Community Medicine as basic subjects being covered; Pathology is again covered using lectures and labs.

Final year comprises the core clinical rotations.

 

[mies]

Medicine is a 7-year course, right after secondary school. The basic sciences (except pharm) are covered in 3 years.

First year:
Biophysics, Organic chemistry, Comparative biology
(there's an entrance examination which covers general chemistry, physics, biology and calculus which you are supposed to have taken in secondary school. The previous courses are reviewing and extending those subjects), Anatomy (locomotor systems), Cell biology I (molecular biology), Cell biology II (basic cell physiology and histology), Epidemiology and statistics, Philosophy (anthropological), First aid, Nursing clerkship during summer

Second year: Cell physiology (ion channels and diseases: horrible), Metabolism (biochemistry), Anatomy, histology and physiology in a systems approach, Genetics and embryology, Experimental psychology (memory, perception, motivation etc.), Preceptorship with a family physician, Communicational skills, Initiation in scientific education (research), Two electives (one every semester)

Third year: Anatomy (topography and radiology), Physics of medical imaging (do you really have to know that stuff??), Neuroanatomy and histology, Neurophysiology (again: experimental), Microbiology and immunology, General pathology, Medical ethics with seminars, Medical psychology and behavioral psychology, Preceptorship in a health care setting, Communicational skills, History taking and physical examination, Scientific education (research), Two electives (one every semester)

Fourth year and fifth year:
clinical subjects with occasional bed-side teaching, clerkships, communicational skills, scientific education and electives

Sixth year:
core rotations in surgery, internal medicine, OB/GYN and pediatrics (no psych)

Seventh year:
internship in field of choice

Most courses are lectures, supplemented by working sessions in smaller groups and of course labs. Anatomy is taught in lectures, dissections take place during the year following the theoretical course (that way you've already passed the exam)

I do like the fact that we get a broad education: philosophy and fundamental psychology as well as hard core sciences, communicational skills and various clerkships.
Improvements could be made in the testing system. We only have one oral exam at the end of each semester for every course (up to last year it was at the end of the whole year). Personally, I would prefer to have midterms, but the academic community doesn't seem to value frequent testing...

 

[JMD]

Hey CATW,
I am not in med school yet, so I can't answer your questions on the topic, but Long Hair's Avatar is a painting by Salvador Dali.

 

[Long Hair and a Beard]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by crazy about the world:
•what exactly is a PBL??

and umm, do you have all the subjects at once or is it like 8 weeks of anatomy and another 8 weeks of biochem?
•••••PBL = Problem Based Learning

Basically, a clinical case is given to us in stages, and we have to do our own research as to how we should go about to know more about his complaint. Demonstrators guide us to relevant sources of information, but we have to collect it ourselves, and then discuss it in groups. There is a presentation from each of the different groups in the end.

At least that's how we go about it here. It is probably different in various schools. You could do a search in different forums here to find threads relevant to you. I guess <a href="http://forums.studentdoctor.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=001066" target="_blank">this one</a> could be helpful to you.

We have all the subjects simultaneously.

And yes, that is Salvador Dali, the great surrealist.

 

[BellKicker]

At my school it was a lot like mies in Belgium (we're almost neighbors, though, so that would explain it). We take pathology in our 6th year, which I've found out is very strange compared to other countries. Mies didn't metion that, so it might be the same in Belgium. I think for some reason it's considered a clinical specialty more than a basic science.

But they have a new system now that the in-coming students will go through. It's all PBL, even, say, the lymph nodes of the neck! Some professors aren't too happy about it, cuz it cuts down on the mindless memorization.

The teaching style is a mix of sleepy lectures and class room teaching. Pretty basic stuff. I may be old fashioned but I think that's the best way to learn most subjects.

We only have exams every semester like in Belgium. Most classes run a year, though. The exams will be spread out over almost 2 months with no classes so the students really have time to freak out. I'm fourth year. In the next month I have only 2 official duties; micro and pharma exams. They are 6 hours written each.

Anyway, good luck with your research. If it finds a written format, why don't you post the conclusion. I think most people believe that everyone is taught medicine like at their own school. We might be in for a surprise

 

[mies]

Hey BellKicker, good luck with your exams! I've got upcoming exams as well next month: micro and pathology. General pathology consists of pathophysiology and basic anatomo-pathology, it probably isn't the same course you'll be taking in sixth year.

So yeah, I'm in the 2-month freaking-out-season right now, glad to hear that we're not the only ones overhere! (well, technically right now I'm procrastinating... I should go and hit the books... in a minute... *sigh*...)

 

[crazy about the world]

you are the greatest guys

mies and Bell kicker good luck w/ the exams ( i really like the idea of sending you luck from the other side of the world~~ )

oh, and i'll definitely try to post the results (although it's gonna take a while~~ )

 

[BellKicker]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by mies:
•Hey BellKicker, good luck with your exams! I've got upcoming exams as well next month: micro and pathology. General pathology consists of pathophysiology and basic anatomo-pathology, it probably isn't the same course you'll be taking in sixth year.

So yeah, I'm in the 2-month freaking-out-season right now, glad to hear that we're not the only ones overhere! (well, technically right now I'm procrastinating... I should go and hit the books... in a minute... *sigh*...)•••••LOL , I'm sitting here surfing SDN. I SHOULD be memorizing the structure of rotavirus or something like that. Can you imagine what I'll be doing when the World Cup rolls around? I've vowed only to watch Denmark's games in the prelimenary rounds but we'll see if that holds up.

And good luck right back at you (both of you)!

Back to rotavirus.

 

[BellKicker]

CrazyWorld I just realized you're in Korea. It must be pretty nutty over there right now.

 

[candybits]

I'm in Korea right now, enjoying the FIFA atmosphere, that's for sure... it's awesome! So much excitement in the air!

Hey, Crazy about the World, which school do you go to in Korea? I'm Korean by origin, but I was born and I live in Canada. I'm about to start first year med at McGill this summer. So very excited!!

 

[mies]

I'm not that big of a soccer fan, certainly not if that would entail giving up my precious sleeping hours... But the World Cup is a different story altogether, isn't it?
Belgium gets my full support, although I'm afraid our team will not survive the preliminary rounds...

I could always switch to Denmark, they could use some international support... considering Denmark was dead last in the Eurovision Song Contest

 

[Stormreaver]

Is this turning into the International World Cup 2002 Thread. As good a place as any: and we can call it football instead of (shudder) "soccer".

I'm a Holland supporter myself, but for this world cup I'm transferring my allegiance to France.

 

[candybits]

It's weird for me to say "football" instead of soccer because I get so very mixed up with the american football. hehe oh wellz...

Aside from supporting Korea all the way (well, it's really hard not too esp when you're Korean and everyone around you is chanting "Korea Korea" day and night, in the streets, in the media...), I'm all for France myself! Zidane is injured though... quad contusion, it seems. aughhh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />

 

[BellKicker]

•••quote:•••Originally posted by mies:
•

I could always switch to Denmark, they could use some international support... considering Denmark was dead last in the Eurovision Song Contest •••••Ok, that's just plain evil to bring up the Song Contest :wink: . Can you believe it, it's still headline news here, 4 days later.

 

[mies]

I'm sorry. :wink:
Our contestant didn't do well either. Unfortunately he made some very politically incorrect remarks afterwards, which were uncalled for. Anyway, the whole contest should be forgotten quickly.

Headline news over here is the Danish state visit! Your Queen Margrethe's violet outfit was not matching our Queen Paola's poison green... They should have made prior arrangements, our queen looked pretty foolish

 

[crazy about the world]

oh yeah, guys it's getting pretty crazy here~~

we've got the opening ceremony tonight!!

and i am a volunteer~~ and i got AD cards for the fields and the locker rooms

ok~~ but only for the stadium here in gwang-ju~

hey, candybits!! you are in korea right now?! <img border="0" alt="[Wowie]" title="" src="graemlins/wowie.gif" /> i'm in gwang-ju, do you know where that is?! it's in the south-eastern part of korea.. look it up?! where are you staying?

and mies and bellkicker~ you've got queens in your countries?! that's pretty cool~ but yeah, i gotta agree w/o even looking at any pics~~ purple and green doesn't seem to match~~ they really should talk about their outfits before they meet~

 

[BellKicker]

I just watched the end of France-Senegal. Whoa, was that a surrpise or what? We're in that group, too. Don't think we'll make it past the prelims now.

CrazyWorld: Belgium, Denmark and Great Britain are the only countries with queens, as far as I know. You'd think that 3 queens could align their wardrobes, right?

So which group is playing in Gwang-Ju? Locker-room passes? Sounds pretty cool.

Later.

 

[candybits]

I'm just as shocked over the Senegal vs France match... I think Korea has a chance at this thing now... haha we'll see~

 

[MisrahMD]

Im currently in my 3rd year of medical school here in the Philippines. My school follows the traditional curriculum where in we take the basic subjects in our first and second year. The clinical subjects are then taught during second and third year. While clinical clerkship is in fourth year.

My school still hasn't adopted the PBL system like in othe nearby schools. But I think in about a year or so it will follow.

The University of Santo Tomas has a curriculum where in they take an integration of basic subjects during first year. Then beginning on the second year up to the third year they study modules by system. For example, in the second year their first module is the cardiovascular system. They will given 8 weeks to study only CVS with a PBL approach. I think they do this with all the body systems.

I think what UST did was nice because you get to concentrate on one body system at a time. But for me I still believe that repetition is the best way to facilitate learning in med school. for example, cvs to us was taught in ana, histo, biochem, physio during first year. Then taught again in the second year in patho, pharma and physical diagnosis. Then it will be taught to us in cardiology in our third year.

The disadvantage of the systemic approach is you take a all aspects of a body system and study it during the period of time given. After studying a system then what? When will you encounter what you have learned again? But one major advantage would be that PBL urges the student to research for info. And I also believe that if information is better rememberd and understood if found first hand.

 

[crazy about the world]

oh my gosh!! guys~~

oh bell kicker, the teams are spain, slovenia, costa rica, and china.. and congrats denmark won~~ 2:1 over urguay~~ great game~~ i watched it~~ (on duty~ shh.. it's a secret)

oh my gosh!! tomorrow is the game btwn spain and slovenia.. and both teams came to the stadium to practice~ and i saw them practice on the field and after that when they were going back to their hotel~~

i took a picture w/ Fernando Morientes S?nchez!! i stood right next to him~~ and it was GREAT!! well, now i'm worried that maybe something went wrong w/ the camera maybe?! aww.. he was so COOL~~

and i saw Ra?l Gonz?lez too~~ (plus all the other spain players.. but, i don't know their names~ ) i'm definitely gonna ask for an autograph tomorrow~~

wish me luck~~

 

[mies]

crazy about the world,

You might find <a href="http://www.med-net.nl/topics/survey/index.htm" target="_blank">this</a> survey on European medical education interesting.

Happy autograph hunting!

 

[crazy about the world]

hey, mies~ thanks for the info~~ the web site is very nicely organized~ it's got info about the med school curriculum~ and their goals and everything~~ i guess that pretty much covers europe than~~

how's your exams coming along?! best of luck!!

will be leaving for the autographs in ohh about 30 minutes~~ have a great day~