Question for osteopathic medical students and graduates

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by Hedwig, Feb 17, 2002.

  1. Hedwig

    Hedwig Senior Member

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    I keep seeing quotations on the various forums from people who say, "My so-and-so is an MD and he/she said that if he/she were to do it all over again, he/she would go osteopathic."

    So my question to all you osteopathic medical students and graduates is, If you were to go to medical school all over again, given the choice, would you go MD or DO? How come?
     
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  3. Well, that's a pretty easy question to answer. If I had to do it all over again, I would definitely go MD. The fact that there aren't enough quality AOA residencies spread throughout the country is enough to piss you off, unless you're interested in FP. Even with internal medicine, there aren't enough good programs at hi volume hospitals to train you. You end up completing rotations at a series of hospitals away from your base.
    Another thing, not enough quality research being conducted at DO schools. Research = money = higher reputation = more exposure for future students.
    The AOA also gives students alot of grief for completing ACGME residencies. Getting approval for your ACGME internship can be tough. No wonder people just go after ACGME residencies and forget the AOA. Look at salaries at AOA residencies. They are often a few thousand less than ACMGE salaries. Probably doesn't matter in the long run, but you do have expensive tuition to pay for.
     
  4. bobo

    bobo Senior Member

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    I echo the previous posters sentiments. Osteopathic post-graduate training just isn't up to snuff and is VERY limited geographically. Allopathic schools generally have many more resources than their osteopathic counterparts. Going MD makes things easier when applying for residencies. If you want to be an OMM guru, then go DO, by all means. And no I am not an MD-wannabe, I haven't looked back since entering DO school and I will be proud to have DO after my name.
     
  5. doughboy

    doughboy Senior Member

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    I'm honest enough to state I'm an MD wannabe and due to the reasons listed above. I agree with the few number of quality residencies and the fact that they are spread all over the country. I also believe the support you get from an MD institution in obtaining competitive residencies is far superior than the DO institutions. Its a lot easier to know what programs to apply to and what the good ones are when your department chair is well known and has connections at other programs. If you are in the midwest and want to do family medicine than I would go DO because they are stronger in that area and there is fewer discrimination in those residencies. The rotations in DO schools are not as good either. Most of my "good" rotations have been the ones I have set up at MD institutions. DO students are known to do well in certain fields because they work for everything they get and because most students take it upon themselves to make sure they get a good exposure and education and not because their school does them any service. I'm still proud I'm going to be a doctor and I don't hate being a DO but the truth is that I'd be a lot happier, my life easier, and I wouldn't have to always explain what "school" I attend to everyone who doesn't know the DO schools and that's pretty much everyone. Even a lot of patients don't know whether their doctor is a DO or an MD and that's how little our popularity is. I would have more encouragement for osteopathic medicine but now that I am graduating and have gone through all the hassles and first hand experiences, I can say that their is too much hype by all the idealistic "DO's"
     
  6. JS-UNMC

    JS-UNMC Senior Member

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    ditto all of the above.... MD without a doubt.
     
  7. pags

    pags Senior Member

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    I tried for 2 years to get in a MD school and nobody wanted to even interview me. I figured that if I wanted to become a physician and stay in the US I would have to go DO. The rest is history.

    I will become a physician, however, I might not become a radiologist. It has been difficult for DOs and FMGs to obtain interviews this year as many of you know. Nonetheless, it was only 5 years ago when I though I was going nowhere, let alone be applying for radiology in 2002.

    Do I have regrets for going DO? No. I do regret not studying harder in college instead of spending so much time trying to build the better bong.
     
  8. Eric714

    Eric714 Senior Member
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    Hedwig,

    I echo the same sentiments as previous posts basically because going to MD school would be less of a headache. Seems like everything you do in DO school requires more work. For instance, you take the same course load as MD's do as well as an OMM class which is an extra 4 hours of class time. Then, you have to worry about whether or not you should take both the COMLEX and the USMLE, which most of my friends are doing both; that's an extra $405 to pay. Then, you have to decide between DO & MD residencies, where the AOA encourages us to take a DO residency even though there is a shortage of them. And then there's the countless times you have to explain what a DO is to others.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't want to sound like I'm DO-bashing. I'm a future DO. I do like the philosophy and OMM, my dad (an MD) loves getting treatments from me. I just wish sometimes that we didn't have to face the additional obstacles that MD students don't need to worry about.

    So all in all, if I had my choice, I would go MD in my opinion. In the long run, it's going to be less a hassle to get to the specialty you want.

    Eric, MSII
     
  9. JPFL75

    JPFL75 Member

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    pags,

    keep the hope alive...I've read alot of your posts in the past...I have a feeling that you'll end up with what you want
     
  10. PuppyLuv

    PuppyLuv Member

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    i'd go D.O. again
     
  11. Freeeedom!

    Freeeedom! Senior Member

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    I would return to Japan and complete my NINJA TRAINING!

    HEEYAAA!!
     
  12. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member
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    For those of you who are truly serious about ninja training, click <a href="http://www.bol.ucla.edu/~rahjr79/ninja.htm" target="_blank">here</a>
     
  13. Mr. happy clown guy

    Mr. happy clown guy Senior Member

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    That is perhaps the funniest website I have seen this year!!!!!

    Direct quote from page
    "Ninjas are sooooooooooo sweet that I want to crap my pants. I can't believe it sometimes, but I feel it inside my heart. These guys are totally awesome and that's a fact"
     
  14. EUROdocMOM

    EUROdocMOM Senior Member

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    I can believe this thread went for the classic MD vs. DO stuff to NINJA's!!
    Please tell me you are all going to be DO's and my mind will be made up!
     
  15. DrStacey69

    DrStacey69 Member

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    I think I would go back to my original dream and become a guitarist in a heavy metal band.
     
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  17. climber

    climber Junior Member

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    I wish those of you who would go to a MD rather than DO, would just do it and stop polluting the Osteopathic profession. You can get your MD in Puerto Rico or one of the island schools. I get very upset when a person says to me, "why aren't all of you DO's the same? Some of you practice just like MD's and others are more patient-oriented." Do us and yourself a favor and don't apply to our schools unless you intend to practice the profession honorably.
     
  18. pags

    pags Senior Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by climber:
    <strong>I wish those of you who would go to a MD rather than DO, would just do it and stop polluting the Osteopathic profession. You can get your MD in Puerto Rico or one of the island schools. I get very upset when a person says to me, "why aren't all of you DO's the same? Some of you practice just like MD's and others are more patient-oriented." Do us and yourself a favor and don't apply to our schools unless you intend to practice the profession honorably.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">I kinda chuckle at this last post because of a PD's comment during one of my interviews. An allopathic radiology residency PD asked me if going DO was my first choice. I told her the truth that I tried unsuccessfully for MD school for a couple years and decided that DO would be my only route for acceptance in the US. She then questions me and/or states, I forget which, that I might be doing a disservice to the osteopathic profession because I had no original intention of practicing osteopathy, and instead, settled for it as a backup. How does one respond to that comment during an interview? I don't even clearly remember how I replied. However, I did rank that program dead last which makes no difference because the way the interview went, she probably didn't rank me.
    Climber, do you have any female radiologists in your family in NYC?
     
  19. GDubDO

    GDubDO Senior Member

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    I would definitely go DO again...

    Greg
     
  20. JS-UNMC

    JS-UNMC Senior Member

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    Climber, God willing, I will.
     
  21. Climber has got it all wrong. The issue really isn't whether people hate being a DO, per say. But more so, the issue is the disservice and slight disadvantage that the DO med schools provide its students. Several DO schools are in areas where there are more cattle walking the streets than people. Several DO schools don't have the capacity to train all of its students in its own hospital (you really think a 200 bed hospital is a great training facility? It's more like a hotel!) so it send the students across the country or region to get their training. When you send people out of state for their training, can you honestly provide equal training and resources to each student? Think about the demographics of the patients that walk into your friendly neighborhood DO hospital. Is there a good cross section of pathology that will provide you with great exposure?

    Think about exactly how many great AOA residencies are out there. The AOA has had about 25 years (the boom probably started in the 1970's)to establish a strong foundation in residency training for its students. Did it succeed? I don't think so. It seems like it spent a good portion fighting about how different DO's are from MD's rather than providing solid residencies and internships. Sure there are some great programs in the DO profession. But, unless you love Michigan, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and a few other states, you're out of luck. You work your ass off to get the best grades, learn good medicine, become insomniacs, all for what? Is it just to apply to a handful of strong EM or IM residencies all located in Michigan and New York? Wouldn't you rather take your chances in applying to the potentially hundreds of programs in the allopathic world? I sure would.

    If you were to eliminate all of the DO students who originally applied to MD schools, you would be left with about 20 people in your class. I'd guess you would need to bring in some cattle just to fill up space in your classrooms.

    Just face it, most of the DO students would jump at the chance of being an MD, not because being a DO is embarassing, but rather your future is not secure. You have little control in where you'll end up for residency. You have small community programs that are always at risk of shutting down. You have little research in your schools to generate $$$$, which is why YOUR tuition is over $25K. You have the AOA who wants you to be a part of it association, but it fails to provide enough quality residencies/internships. Even worse, the AOA gives you grief when you try to get your allopathic internship approved. It fails to provide enough fellowships for those who want to specialize. So, who wouldn't want to go into the allopathic world.

    I'm very lucky to have gotten into med school. I don't regret being a DO. I just wish the path to wherever I'm going was less bumpy and without restrictions. I plan on capitalizing whatever opportunities that I can get my hands on. But, it sure seems like my MD buddies have less to worry about.
     
  22. Neurogirl

    Neurogirl Resident Extraordinaire

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    wernicke,

    I'm sorry your experiences have been negative (or maybe you and others like you are just insecure), but I must disagree with some of your statements.

    For example, "If you were to eliminate all the DO students who originally applied to MD schools, you'd be left with about 20 people in your class". And, "most DO students would jump at the chance to become MDs". These statements are just laughable! I personally know several people who TURNED DOWN allopathic acceptances because the DO schools they chose were a better fit.

    And, "you really think a 200 bed hospital is a great training facility? It's more like a hotel!" I trained at a small (150 bed) hospital that provided GREAT training and diversity. How do I know that my training was great? Because I also did rotations at several large academic centers. I can't say that those facilities provided me with anymore diversity (although they did provide me with more scut!). In fact, one PD asked me if I thought training at a small hospital had been a disadvantage. I replied that, on the contrary, I felt it had been a big ADVANTAGE! Since there weren't many residents around I had received MUCH more "hands on" experience than many of my MD colleagues. I then went on to explain my level of responsibility at my home institution...he was impressed.

    Also, "you have little control in where you'll end up in residency". Give me a break! If you do well in school and on your boards you can do whatever you want. I got my first choice allopathic residency (ok, there aren't enough good DO residencies...I'll give you that) and know lots of others who did as well (in fields alot more competitive than neuro).

    Sooooo, stop your whining!!!!! You didn't have these reservations when you accepted your seat (and took a spot from someone who REALLY wanted to be a DO!)! Get over it already!
     
  23. gasrx

    gasrx Member

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    I must agree with wernicke. I think he was reading my mind or something. I think Neurogirl is in some fairy tale land where candy grows on trees. I'm glad she got her first choice in Neuro. Congratulations!, but try getting neuro at Duke, Hopkins, or MGH. You need alot more than good grades and great board score, maybe something like an MD behind your name. It's just out of our control. Not embarrassed to be a DO, but I wish the road had a lot less barriers.

    Does anyone get the DO journal? Why do they only talk about DO's who do manipulation. Why not recognize all DO's in all fields of medicine. I hate that 25 cent magazine.
     
  24. Test Boy

    Test Boy Senior Member

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    You don't even know where Neurogirl is doing her residency. I remember her saying she was in a top notch program. Just do your best at whatever you do and all is well.
     
  25. "ok, there aren't enough good DO residencies...I'll give you that"

    Without having the intention to piss neurogirl off, I have to say that her statement above pretty much is the center of all matters.
    With all the effort DO students put into their work, not having enough residencies is a complete shame and disappointment to the students. The entire point of heading off to DO school is to complete a strong DO residency, I would think. Ideally, there shouldn't be a need to go through DO school only to end up applying to MD residencies. Why the hassle? It's pretty clear that it takes more effort for a DO student to get into a competitive residency. Some allopathic programs are pretty much closed to DO's (derm, ortho, ent, uro, etc...) I know, I know, there are SOME DO's in those field, but not enough for me to make a good Las Vegas bet!

    I would like to follow in neurogirl's footsteps and pursue neurology as a profession. Exactly how many neurology residencies are in the DO profession? A grand total of FIVE! With FOUR of them in Michigan. Now that's great!!!! You think I'm going to bank my life on these five residencies. Hell NO! That's why I'm ticked. Luckily, neurology is still reasonable for a DO to get into.

    But what happens to the student who is interested in uro (4 residencies), nepho (2 residencies), pulm-crit care (1), pulm (3), psych (3), "ass-man" (1), plastics (2), pain (0), heme-onc (1), infectious (2), child psych (1), GI (5). I guess these students are THRILLED the AOA is providing them with such great opportunities.

    Neurogirl, I'm glad you got your top allopathic position. I hope I can to. But, if you were interested in any of the above residencies and fellowships, being a DO is just rough. Then what do you do. Do you work harder than you already have? will that guarantee anything more? Probably not. The AOA has a responsibility to help us out too. Just like we have a responsibility to learn and synthesize.
     
  26. doughboy

    doughboy Senior Member

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    Wernicke--me and you are seeing eye to eye. I don't know how I can improve on your reasons.

    Neurogirl--you are definitely caught up in a little fish bowl. You need to look around outside your glass house.

    For all of you DO die-hards...please explain to me again why you chose to go the osteopathic route and not the MD route...I need some comic relief tonight.

    I'm from Michigan and I never heard of a DO until I didn't get into an MD school. Yeah, I took one of your precious DO spots but looking at some of my classmates, its a good thing I did.

    Like I said before, the people in my class who got great residency matches didn't get them because the AOA is great, or the school supported them, or the faculty encouraged them....its because they got off their ass and worked their butts off, kissed some ass, and set up rotations at sites where they had an opportunity to shine. I have yet to see DO's outside family medicine use manipulation in their daily practice. I have yet to see a DO use a textbook other than one written by an MD for reference. I have yet to see how an MD can't be personal and relate to a patient as a whole person. And finally, I have yet to see someone on this forum have their opinions and views changed by a discussion.

    Please tell me again about your passion for osteopathy and how you're going to save the world as a DO because I really need some comic relief tonight.

    I truly believe most of us MD wannabes are not anti-DO's...its just that we've been severely disappointed because we've had high expectations. Most of us were told there would be no doors closed to us as DO's, most of us were told DO's as a whole were unique and different than MD's, and most of us were told didn't have to do family medicine in order to be a DO. These have all turned out to be lies to me and I'm really disappointed. But you know what, we just say oh well and make the most of it and the ones who do that are still happy and don't care and I include myself in that one but don't ever tell me to brag or take pride in something I can't.
     
  27. Hedwig

    Hedwig Senior Member

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    I'm very, very confused. (And also somewhat contrite about starting this now-nauseating thread in the first place.)

    The Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine has hands-down the best overall GME (FP, IM, ortho, optho, urology, nephrology, cardiology, CT surg, OMM, OB/GYN, ENT, ER, derm, geriatrics, neurosurg, plastic/reconstructive surgery, general surg, emergency medical services--WOW!) in the osteopathic world. All the programs take place at major urban allopathic hospitals, including very notable ones like Temple, Willis Eye, du Pont Institute (pediatric orthopedics), Jefferson, CHOP, Memorial Sloan-Kettering, Deborah Heart and Lung, etc. The scope of pathology, number of cases, and quality of teaching rivals anything in the allopathic world.

    So why is it that PCOM (which, granted, is the most allopathic of the osteopathic medical schools) is able to create an incredible GME system, yet every other osteopathic medical school can't do it, prompting complaints like the ones posted on this thread (and the other 8,000 just like it)?

    Realize that if all the schools besides PCOM (and UMDNJSOM to a lesser extent) were able to do what PCOM has, there wouldn't be a single valid complaint on this thread.
     
  28. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">please explain to me again why you chose to go the osteopathic route and not the MD route...I need some comic relief tonight...I have yet to see a DO use a textbook other than one written by an MD for reference.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, doughboy, you want some comic relief, here goes...

    I'm not sure if you're a med student or not, so I'm not sure if you've ever heard of the following texts which have DO contributors and authors, but here goes...

    Harrison's Proinciples of Internal Medicine (DO contributing author)
    GI/LIVER Secrets (DO is the sole author)

    Hey, while you're at it, why don't you go to Harvard and Northwestern's websites and check out some of their DO residents...I'm sure it'll give you a good chuckle. If you're REALLY looking for some comic relief, why not check out CWRU's Family Residency website and see who there Chief Resident is...it's a DO....isn't that hillarious. Can you believe that these premier institutions let "lowly" DO's into their programs, and even dare to let some be the head honcho...it's hillarious isn't it. I'm laughing so hard that these DO's can attain such stature....I can't stop laughing.

    If you'd like, I'd be glad to share more comic relief with you....DO's who author medical texts (gasp!) and head allopathic residency programs (oh my!) and chair national medical committees (oh no!).

    The comedy never stops!
     
  29. macman

    macman Senior Member

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    There is one way to change things, and that is to become involved. If I'm not happy about something, I work to change it. If I don't have to time or intiative to do so, I try not to blame others. Sure-thats a little idealistic, but if the majority of DO students think the AOA is out of touch, yet they decide to get involved anyway-who do you think is going to be running the AOA in 15-20 years. Me and you. We do not have to be OMM gurus (sp) to be "DOs"

    -T-Bone
     
  30. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> but if the majority of DO students think the AOA is out of touch, yet they decide to get involved anyway-who do you think is going to be running the AOA in 15-20 years. Me and you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Unfortunately, though, I don't think it will be you and I running the AOA in 15-20 years. We get all the AOA publications here at OUCOM, and I'm frightened. Most of these people are 100 years old, and still quoting A.T. Still! There is no diversity (of thought) among this AOA crowd, they're all singing the same creepy tune, i.e. OMM will save to world, etc.

    Their ideology and hopes for the future of our profession is so out of whack with mainstream osteo students and physicians, I don't even see the point. I think the AOA's biggest wake-up call will come in the form of increasingly less membership and support from the osteopathic community (which I believe is happening).
     
  31. As I would hate to say it, I think Teufelhunden is right. At least for my school, everytime a lecture is done on OMM and on how it is used to treat diseases other than musculoskeletal, I honestly say a good portion of the class stop listening. there is always some chuckling, depending on who the lecturer is. We end up turning on our computers, play games, send email, etc... We even had a a lecture by our "beloved OMM guru" that told us that leveling the sacral base can help treat glaucoma. sorry, but the next time i have closed angle glaucoma, i would rather have some laser surgery, NOT some sacral leveling! Even our DO ophthamologist prof told us not to listen to that jackass.

    During our third year, we have oral case presentations that require an osteopathic component within it. In almost all of our cases, the OMM component is thrown in at the end of the case. a good number of the students at our school went with high expectations of learning great medicine that utilizes OMM. But many of us turned out to be disappointed.

    Sometimes I feel a bit sad that our profession is basically confused and without direction. Until there is enough research to PROVE everything that we think that works, there will NEVER be any true public acceptance. The AOA can push all it wants, but it won't happen. However, DO schools don't recruit enough researchers into its schools. Most of the schools don't have a graduate school attached to it. So the downward spiral continues.
     
  32. JS-UNMC

    JS-UNMC Senior Member

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    Macman, I know that you have worked hard to make a difference at DMU. I hope you have been succesful in your pursuits. When i took the position of Surgery Club president, I went into it wide eyed and determined to make some differences at DMU in terms of surgery (and other specialties). It has been the single-most dissapointing experience in my life. I have a page long list of things that I have tried to set up for the school. Most of the time, it was the administration that ruined any progress that I made via spouting off at the mouth about their DO politics and DMU proceedures.
    Unfortunately, getting involved at DMU only made me realize how little the school really cares about my education. Yes, Feel free to disagree with me, but thats how I feel. I was able to set up a lot of connections with some of the best surgical specialists here in Des Moines, but for no reason other than the fact that they were MD's, the school wanted nothing to do with them. How dissapointing is that?
    Hands down, I would say that PCOM and NYCOM have the best hospital affiliations. DMU on the other hand, I would say, has the worst hospital affiliations and clinical training.
    I shadow surgeons here in des moines at least once a week. I find it humurous that the surgeons that I have followed (MD and DO) with the best teaching, best patient contact, and best approach to viewing the patient as a whole (a supposedly unique quality to DO's) were the MD's!!!
    I have spent a lot of time and energy trying to make a difference here at DMU. What I have found is that DMU is more interested in advancing politics than in advancing medicine and providing a quality education for its students.
    This is why, if I had to do it over again, I would have gone MD. I don't care about politics, I care about medicine. Does my posting apply to other DO schools? No, just DMU. I can't speak for the others.
    I am bitter! I feel that DMU (and the DO profession) lied to me about my education and career possibilities.
     
  33. Hedwig

    Hedwig Senior Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Teufelhunden:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">please explain to me again why you chose to go the osteopathic route and not the MD route...I need some comic relief tonight...I have yet to see a DO use a textbook other than one written by an MD for reference.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, doughboy, you want some comic relief, here goes...

    I'm not sure if you're a med student or not, so I'm not sure if you've ever heard of the following texts which have DO contributors and authors, but here goes...

    Harrison's Proinciples of Internal Medicine (DO contributing author)
    GI/LIVER Secrets (DO is the sole author)

    Hey, while you're at it, why don't you go to Harvard and Northwestern's websites and check out some of their DO residents...I'm sure it'll give you a good chuckle. If you're REALLY looking for some comic relief, why not check out CWRU's Family Residency website and see who there Chief Resident is...it's a DO....isn't that hillarious. Can you believe that these premier institutions let "lowly" DO's into their programs, and even dare to let some be the head honcho...it's hillarious isn't it. I'm laughing so hard that these DO's can attain such stature....I can't stop laughing.

    If you'd like, I'd be glad to share more comic relief with you....DO's who author medical texts (gasp!) and head allopathic residency programs (oh my!) and chair national medical committees (oh no!).

    The comedy never stops!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Good point. Don't forget the DO residents at Hopkins--categorical internal medicine, PM&R, anesthesia. Hysterical. Or the DO residents at UCLA, NYU, PENN, Yale, and Baylor. HA! Or the chief of urology at the Hospital of the Medical College of Pennsylvania.

    Another thing. The osteopathic profession lied to you? Fine. No offense, but if you're dumb enough to enroll in medical school without doing some research about the true nature of the osteopathic profession (at most of the DO schools, not all), then you shouldn't be complaining. Exactly who prevented you from learning the truth BEFORE you began your course of study? I've never seen a med school--MD or DO--that doesn't propagandize to a certain extent. So take it cum grano salis, and learn the truth. Fact: there are pitifully few quality osteopathic GME programs out there. Fact: these programs are essentially concentrated within one or two schools. Fact: you have a better chance of getting one if you're a graduate of PCOM or UMDNJSOM or NYCOM than a graduate of Oklahoma State or Des Moines or West Virginia; university programs tend to consider graduates of their own university more highly. Fact: the AOA is made up of a bunch of senile old men in denial about all of the above. Fact: there is not enough proof out there about OMM. Fact: not every school shoves OMM down your throat or presents it as some sort of panacea. Fact: if you work your butt off (yes, if you work HARDER than your MD counterparts) you'll likely get a competitive allopathic residency in the field of your choice.

    I know this, and I'm not even a medical student yet! If the osteopathic profession lied to you, it's your own fault for wearing those rosy-colored glasses, not that of the osteopathic profession, which really can't be lumped into one big entity, since clearly there are differences of opinion and philosophy within it.

    A sad pattern on this thread is the feeling of powerlessness. You know something, osteopathic medical students should reject this bull**** "Unity" campaign and start a strictly-student unity campaign of their own. You know, "Meet our demands or all 10,000 of us are leaving!"
     
  34. jhug

    jhug 1K Member

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    this is a very interesting thread-- i agree that the feeling of helpless/powerless and deceit is quite embarassing!! It sounds like a pouty little kid who didn't get picked to play at recess and is now complaining that recess is deceiving in that it promises quality time to play. Go out and start you own game!! Many jumped on neurogirl for actually succeding and doing what you are saying we can't!!! With friends (yes, DO's) as surgeons, radiology/oncologists, & neuros-- why can't we succeed as they did?? someone said-- "I'm glad she got her first choice in Neuro. Congratulations!, but try getting neuro at Duke, Hopkins, or MGH. You need alot more than good grades and great board score, maybe something like an MD behind your name" for every MD that is doing a residency there i'll find you 15 MD's that didn't!!!! Being an MD solely won't get you too far-- and any place that would reject a qualified, compitent DO for a loser/average MD is neglecting patients of quality care and won't last long, thus, i wouldn't want to be afiliated with it anyway. So buck up little campers- ponganse las pilas, hit the books and don't let others dictate where you end up-- if you all end up in loser residencies-- responsibility may actually rest on yourselves-- not the profession!
    I will agree fully that DO's don't have the extensive network MD's have-- but i totally disagree with anyone who says we can't be a part of it as well!
     
  35. gasrx

    gasrx Member

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    I wouldn't call it pouty little kids. Just wish my $28,000/year tuition did a little more for me. When you talk to other applicants on the interview trail and they talk about the advise their program director gave them you sort of green with envy. We don't have a program director for anything other than OMM. I think the school does have some responsibility to help their students. That is why we pay a large tuition. I got my top choice residency spot but I can not say my school did anything to help.
     
  36. bobo

    bobo Senior Member

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    Hedwig, good lord lay off the crack pipe. Wake up to reality. You sound like you have been brainwashed. Tone down the PCOM rhetoric a bit. You don't even go to school there, so don't act like a freakin' expert.



    Hedwig said:

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> Fact: if you work your butt off (yes, if you work HARDER than your MD counterparts) you'll likely get a competitive allopathic residency in the field of your choice.
    </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Quite possibly, this is the STUPIDEST thing I have ever read on this web site. There are very few DO's in the top-notch competitive allopathic programs in residency in fields like optho, urology, derm, ent, etc. Of course there are some examples, but they are few and far between. Since I work my ass off, I guess I'll just apply to the EMED residency of my dreams, since I'll "likely" get it. The fact is, if you work hard you have a good shot at some good residencies, but I wouldn't count on that ENT slot at Stanford.

    Hedwig also said,

    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine has hands-down the best overall GME (FP, IM, ortho, optho, urology, nephrology, cardiology, CT surg, OMM, OB/GYN, ENT, ER, derm, geriatrics, neurosurg, plastic/reconstructive surgery, general surg, emergency medical services--WOW!) in the osteopathic world. All the programs take place at major urban allopathic hospitals, including very notable ones like Temple, Willis Eye, du Pont Institute (pediatric orthopedics), Jefferson, CHOP, Memorial Sloan-Kettering, Deborah Heart and Lung, etc. The scope of pathology, number of cases, and quality of teaching rivals anything in the allopathic world</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">This simply isn't true. They may be the best in the osteopathic world, but it ain't all that. I am not even considering AOA GME.
     
  37. Bobo, you'll have to forgive Hedwig. He hasn't even stepped foot into med school yet. The little grasshopper will soon learn what goes on at some of these DO schools. He'll work his ass off just to find out that unfortunately, he will always be at a slight disadvantage to the fellow MD counterparts. He'll walk into the classroom with such great enthusiasm, but soon he'll run the risk of disappointment just like many people in my class. He'll soon check out the AOA Opportunities website only to find out that there are so few residency slots. Even if he thinks PCOM's residencies are awesome, he'll think twice before banking his entire career on this ONE program.
     
  38. Hedwig

    Hedwig Senior Member

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    Geez, you guys are right!

    Screw it, I'm going MD.
     
  39. migraineboy

    migraineboy Member

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    I have to agree with Wernicke and Gasrx. Although I will be proud to have DO added to my name in May, I have to admit that I get jealous when I talk to my friends in allopathic programs. I too feel that I did not get my $$$ worth at my school. The first two years are terribly disorganized, the curriculum is altered on a yearly basis (despite the fact that the school has been around &gt;100 years), and were are abandoned for our third and fourth years. I spent my third year at a small AOA community hospital 600 miles away which, despite OK hands on experience, had terrible didactics and very little varitey of pathology. Plus, my school gave us no guidance when it came to residency application/interviewing. All of this for 20,000+ / year. I have spent my entire fourth year (which I set up myself) in large hospitals associated with allopathic medical programs. The didactics and variety of pathology have been amazing. Overall, I feel that the allopathic programs are much more focused on teaching their students. At least at my school, I felt that I was on my own from day one, and you can only "self-teach" so much. And as far as residency, thank god I decided on anesthesiology where DO's can get good ACGME spots. If I had wanted Rads/Optho/Derm etc..., getting an ACGME would have been very, very difficult if not impossible. Two final positive thoughts: 1) my school does have an excellent OMM department 2) I do appreciate the enthusiasm of some of the "pro-DO" individuals who post at this site. Maybe some of you can shake up the osteopathic schools as well as the AOA and bring positive change to our profession. As for me, I went into medicine because I hate politics (and I got wait-listed for ninja school). I'm going to bed....
     
  40. pags

    pags Senior Member

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    For most of us DO students (yes, the majority), going to osteopathic school was not our first choice, and most allopathic PDs know this. We tried going the MD route, but for reasons we all are quite familiar with, failed to gain acceptance and subsequently decided that osteopathic school would still grant us an opportunity to become physicians. Fair enough. For those 4th years that have completed the first portion of this crazy event called "The Match", the reality of not being as desirable to allopathic PDs hit some of us squarely in the face and it hurt. So, the most human thing to do (and I fall under this category) is to complain and complain about how unjust it is and voice shame to those allopaths for not recognizing how good we are, etc. However, it was those allopaths that rejected most of us in the first place, so why should an allopathic PD take a DO over a MD? Consensus is that many PDs feel that a great DO student matches up to an average MD student, which strongly correlates with what I saw on the interview trail. Yes, you DOs have to be that much better than your MD counterparts to be viewed as equally competitive. This is the reasoning that many MD students gave me, and I must say that, eventhough I don't like it, makes total sense.

    The point is, the increased difficulty in DOs getting competitive allopathic residencies is not because our schools are too big, don't provide more hand holding, or the lack of scientific validity of OMT, but because the overwhelming view of osteopathic students in the allopathic world are those that couldn't cut it 4 or 5 years ago. In my opinion, I truly feel that if this stigma does not change, true equality will never be established.

    I'll get off my soapbox now.
     
  41. OldManDave

    OldManDave Fossil Bouncer Emeritus
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    For me, it was, and still is, immaterial what set of initials I have behind my signature (can't read it anyhow). I believe the "style" of physician you are lies within the make up of you, the person. In my humble opinion, that is far more critical to my success as a healer than lectures on the philosophy of healing. Don't get me wrong, the philosophic aspect is also important...I just believe that "who" you are will always be the underpinnings of the "professional you" and therefore exert substantial influence.

    Furthermore, you cannot take someone who is an @$$hole, put him/her through a DO program and get Mother Theresa in exchange. This is equally true the other way around.

    Both MD & DO programs have readily adopted progressively more human-centered, humanity-sensitive appraoches to patient care...too bad this has spilled over into how physicians are educated as well. Yes, it was an DO-original...but this approach is no longer a DO exclusive.

    Were I to do it all over again, I would select programs to apply the same way -- does this program teach in a style that I can be productive in? And, do I, as a person, appear to fit in with the types of students this schools tends to admit?

    If you have these two elements, you be far happier as a student than you would if your force-fit yourself into a program based solely upon the "name" of the program. When it all comes down to the end, we're all physicians with the same goal in mind.

    <img border="0" alt="[Clappy]" title="" src="graemlins/clappy.gif" />
     
  42. doughboy

    doughboy Senior Member

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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Teufelhunden:
    <strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">please explain to me again why you chose to go the osteopathic route and not the MD route...I need some comic relief tonight...I have yet to see a DO use a textbook other than one written by an MD for reference.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Okay, doughboy, you want some comic relief, here goes...

    I'm not sure if you're a med student or not, so I'm not sure if you've ever heard of the following texts which have DO contributors and authors, but here goes...

    Harrison's Proinciples of Internal Medicine (DO contributing author)
    GI/LIVER Secrets (DO is the sole author)

    Hey, while you're at it, why don't you go to Harvard and Northwestern's websites and check out some of their DO residents...I'm sure it'll give you a good chuckle. If you're REALLY looking for some comic relief, why not check out CWRU's Family Residency website and see who there Chief Resident is...it's a DO....isn't that hillarious. Can you believe that these premier institutions let "lowly" DO's into their programs, and even dare to let some be the head honcho...it's hillarious isn't it. I'm laughing so hard that these DO's can attain such stature....I can't stop laughing.

    If you'd like, I'd be glad to share more comic relief with you....DO's who author medical texts (gasp!) and head allopathic residency programs (oh my!) and chair national medical committees (oh no!).

    The comedy never stops!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Duh!!!!! Did I say that DO's weren't able to get positions at allopathic positions? No, I didn't...I basically said that they've had to work their butts off on their own without institutional help to obtain those spots. If they were so gung-ho DO then why didn't they stick with their own training programs? Because they have realized as well as I that they are not of the same quality. I too, will also join the ranks of the DO's in the allopathic residencies come March but I would like to make sure that people who want information of this process get accurate first hand information from most of us who have realized how difficult it may be. Did you know that there is a student from CCOM doing psych at DUKE? Why don't you add that to your list and the PD at RUSH for OB-GYN is a DO too. Too bad Dr Pombar puts MD initials as well as DO initials after his title. Anyways, for you to spout off all the DO's in MD programs did give me some comic relief...that's a given considering there are not enough DO spots for all the graduates in DO residencies so of course you're going to have spill over just out of simple mathematics. And don't name off DO's in family medicine because like I said before, if you want to go into family medicine than being a DO has no limitations. Its hard for me to explain to someone who hasn't gone through the MD match as a DO why there are a good group of us disgruntled students. I hope we can continue this discussion in the future if and when you get to your 4th year in med school and you decide to do something other than family/internal medicine.
     
  43. doughboy

    doughboy Senior Member

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    Another thing Teufelh.....I interviewed at CWRU OB-GYN program and I have a story from that day. We were sitting in the conference room in the morning and the PD asked went around and asked what school everyone was from. When he got to me I stated my DO school and jokes about, "wow, we take DO's here?," Of course he laughed it off but it did piss me off since it was in front of all the other candidates who were from MD schools. Plus, when I had an interview with one of the faculty, she asked me what the difference was between manipulation and OMM. Another doctor, while he was looking through my app folder, saw my COMLEX score and then asked me what the hell is this COMLEX thing? Are you kidding me? Good thing I took the USMLE as well so he could find the "real" test. I guess DO's interviewing there are not very common considering he didn't even know what our board exams are called. I bring this up as an example of crap you have to take being a DO.
     
  44. Dr. Evil

    Dr. Evil Member

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    Good lord, is this a thread or did I just finish reading War and Peace?
     
  45. doughboy

    doughboy Senior Member

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    I read my post and I meant to say he joked about that fact that they were taking DO's and it wasn't me joking about that.
     
  46. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member
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    </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif"> I hope we can continue this discussion in the future if and when you get to your 4th year in med school and you decide to do something other than family/internal medicine. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Yeah, you're right. What was I thinking. Thanks to you, I now know that DOs can only go into family med & internal med. Plus, this is all futile since I might not even make it that far (your "if and when" comment). God knows the dropout rate in med school is enormous <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

    Just wondering, when I'm out in our teaching hospitals, we have all these DOs in radiology, surgery, ob/gyn, etc......where did they come from...I mean, it seems like there's a lot of them, and (thanks to your infinite wisdom) I know it's next to impossible to go into the fields as a DO...I'm confused, but then again, I'm just a lowly 1st-year who'll probably not make it to my 4th year...so I confuse easily.
     
  47. Luca45

    Luca45 Junior Member

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    I can only hope that this thread is the product of a few osteopathic medical students who are burned out and pissed off at the system. I am starting at NYCOM next fall, but I'm not going to let a couple of sleep deprived med students cloud me with negativity. I'm just going to go in and do the best I can. I may be at that naive stage, having never touched a medical textbook, but I do tend to believe that I can get into whatever field I want if I put my heart into it (even if it's not at hopkins). Some of you may be bitter, for whatever reason, but the fact remains that it can be done. Finally, don't you think that there are kids at MD schools that are unhappy about things? It's not always greener on the other side...
     
  48. Luca45,

    Yes, you are in the naive stage right now. You'll soon realize that a fair number of your classmates will feel that same way as most of us on this thread. Intrinsically, all med students complain regardless of whether you're MD or DO. Everyone worries about future jobs, residencies, grades, exams, administration inefficiency, etc... We just have a bit more to worry about. You'll spend a great portion of your time in your clinical years explaining exactly where your school is from. Everybody knows Duke, Harvard, U Tenn, Mercer, Meharry, etc... Where the hell is Pikeville? Touro? COMP? Kirksville? It gets tiring sometimes. I just narrow it down to the state. These things beat you down after awhile.

    Hey migraineboy, do you mind telling me where you're doing your residency? What steps did you take to secure that position? How's the competition our there for anesth? Do you truly see a tremendous increase in applications?
     
  49. PuppyLuv

    PuppyLuv Member

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    when it comes to residencies, the grass is really greener on the M.D. side. Osteopathic residencies can only accomodate about 30% of Graduating D.O.'s every year (and we only have about 2000 D.O.s graduating/yr). While there's about 15000 M.D. graduating/yr, somehow they manage to have a surplus in the allopathic residency spots.

    Don't get me wrong, i'm glad i'm in a D.O. school. Came pretty close to teaching badass elementary kids before COMP took me off the waiting list late june last year.

    D.O. pride baby!!! (except for unilateral sacral flexion they're trying to make me believe exist)
     
  50. migraineboy

    migraineboy Member

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    I hope that this thread is not getting too discouraging for the pre-DO and early DO students out there. Overall, you can become a fantastic physician regardless of the initials after your name. And there are many DO's out there in a wide variety of specialties at some excellent hosptials. And if you work hard enough, maybe you can land a competitive residency spot at a top notch program. Just realize that the road from point A to point B is often more complicated and frustrating for osteopathic students. You will have to be more self-reliant and self-sufficient. That in itself is not bad, until you stop to realize that you are paying muchas $$$ to a school that should be helping to train you. Call me bitter if you want, cuz I am. Sometimes I just feel that I could have picked up Netters, Robbins, Steadmans, Harrisons, Guytons and a Wash Manual and saved myself about $199,000.
     
  51. migraineboy

    migraineboy Member

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    Wernicke - "private message" me your e-mail and I'll answer your ?'s.

    - "bitter" migraineboy
     
  52. muonwhiz

    muonwhiz Senior Member

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    I am a first year DO student who does not regret the choice (yes, I turned down allopathic acceptances). I will certainly grant that there are not enough AOA approved residencies for all students. I have no opinion (yet) as to the quality of osteopathic vs. allopathic residency programs. I'm sure that you are correct in stating that there is still some prejudice out there re osteopathic medical students. But unless you are a person from a family with enough wealth to cushion you from such, every adult has experienced some form of discrimination. No, it isn't pleasant and fun to go through that, but it can be overcome. I am not so sure that allopathic students have such a free and easy ride through the match process. None of the (many) that I know has reported this. In fact when I get together with my allopathic buds we have pretty much the same experiences and gripes re medical school and the possible employment options beyond. The grass is not always greener on the other side.
    I also agree that the AOA should take more responsibility in improving the current post graduate scene. The AOA sanctioned each of our schools and has been very aware of the expansion and the number of new graduates that will be coming out of the pipeline each year. It would seem to be great folly to approve these schools without taking some steps to ensure good programs for all of its graduates. Dr. James Zini, AOA President, came to our school, gave a talk and then answered student questions. Many of the questions were about residencies. He was specifically asked how many new residency opportunities had been created by the AOA this year. He replied that somewhere on the order of 6 new ones had been created. He also stated that the AOA is trying to set up some type of national network, presumably with allopathic programs, to grant more access to their programs. He also stated that they plan on sending out mailings to hospitals across the nation that are not currently teaching hospitals to see if any would be interested in gaining AOA accreditation as teaching hospitals. It remains to be seen as to whether this will succeed, but we should at least give it a reasonable period of time before writing off the AOA entirely.
    BTW, if I was faced with the same decision today as I made before, I would still make the decision for DO. If anyone had told me that before the end of my first year I would be able to feel as much with my hands as I can, I would have thought they were trying to sell me some property in the Gulf of Mexico. I look forward to learning even more. If this makes me "naive" then so be it. At my age, it would actually be a form of flattery! Every medical student deserves to be proud of his/her accomplishments, regardless of the degree that will be received. There are no guarantees even for allopathic students, so make the best of your situation. If you truly feel as posted, then do something constructive to make sure that those coming after you will have a better time of it. The progress toward equality that is a benefit to all of us came from the efforts of our osteopathic forefathers and foremothers. We need to keep our focus on making the same efforts for those that will come after us.
     

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