question for people who applied multiple times

[terrybug]

Did you apply to the same programs, same labs each time? Or did you find new schools that interested you each year you applied?
If you did apply to the same labs, did you send emails to your POI's beforehand seeing if they were accepting students first? If you did - what did you write to them?
"Hey remember me? I applied last year, didn't get an interview from you, but I'm still very interested in your program so I'm trying to win you over again this year?"
Can you tell I'm dreading going through this process again?!

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[neuronerd1]

If you thought your application was strong the 1st time around, what did you do to strengthen it more?

Do you know any good websites that can help (personal statements, etc.)?

Thanks.

 

[paramour]

Did you apply to the same programs, same labs each time? Or did you find new schools that interested you each year you applied?
If you did apply to the same labs, did you send emails to your POI's beforehand seeing if they were accepting students first? If you did - what did you write to them?
"Hey remember me? I applied last year, didn't get an interview from you, but I'm still very interested in your program so I'm trying to win you over again this year?"
Can you tell I'm dreading going through this process again?!

I only applied to 3-4 programs the first time around, mainly because I didn't think I had a chance in hades of actually being accepted anywhere (no research experience whatsoever). During my second cycle, I applied to two of the same programs, even though one of those was no longer a great match for me. I simply really liked the program (I interviewed there the first time) and thought um, maybe, probably not, but what the hey. I didn't contact any of my POI's but I think I may be a minority in that, so I wouldn't necessarily follow what I did. Now, when I thought I was going to need to apply yet again, there would have been a handful of schools that I would have applied to again the next time but not very many. I planned on taking the psych GRE to broaden my choices as that limited me the first two application cycles. G'luck!

 

[paramour]

If you thought your application was strong the 1st time around, what did you do to strengthen it more?

Do you know any good websites that can help (personal statements, etc.)?

Thanks.

My weakness was research experience--I had none. So, I entered a master's program, obtained some research experience and other relevant experience, and reapplied two years later.

For personal statements, I flipped through a few books in the library the first time around but honestly wasn't very impressed with most of them. I wrote what I wanted to and then did a whole lot of re-writes. Oddly enough, I spent more time on personal statements the first time than I did the second round. Probably because I was sick of it by that point.

I suspect that the majority of applicants who are rejected believe their applications are strong. And, then they sit here wondering why they didn't get in somewhere. I've had a few ask me questions about how to improve their applications next time around when their stats & experience are MUCH higher than mine in comparison. I strongly believe it's a crapshoot for the most part . . . and for the other part, it's networking. So, get to know some people who know some people and apply there. Seems to be what I keep hearing. And if you're unfortunate like me, the people your people will happen to know are in programs you don't wish to apply to.

 

[GiantSteps]

I strongly believe it's a crapshoot for the most part . . . and for the other part, it's networking. So, get to know some people who know some people and apply there. Seems to be what I keep hearing. And if you're unfortunate like me, the people your people will happen to know are in programs you don't wish to apply to.

I have been waiting months for someone to admit this part. This may be the most important thing ever stated on SDN Psychology. I would like to know how many people either got an interview or got accepted largely because their professor or person for whom they work/ do research has major connections at a school or schools? Also, I have never been to a graduate program interview which did not at least have a few people who were already in a given lab (or in classes with a professor) as an undergraduate or masters student. If so did these influential individuals do something other than just write a letter for you or did they personally contact the school. Also, what about behind the scenes wheeling and dealing? For example, a professor says to his friend at another school: "I will get in your student if you let in mine." Of course the general school statements say nothing about any of this academic nepotism if in fact it is taking place.

 

[amy203]

I have been waiting months for someone to admit this part. This may be the most important thing ever stated on SDN Psychology. I would like to know how many people either got an interview or got accepted largely because their professor or person for whom they work/ do research has major connections at a school or schools? Also, I have never been to a graduate program interview which did not at least have a few people who were already in a given lab (or in classes with a professor) as an undergraduate or masters student. If so did these influential individuals do something other than just write a letter for you or did they personally contact the school. Also, what about behind the scenes wheeling and dealing? For example, a professor says to his friend at another school: "I will get in your student if you let in mine." Of course the general school statements say nothing about any of this academic nepotism if in fact it is taking place.

As with everything else related to admissions for clinical psych programs, what you have to keep in mind is that you are competing with at least 50 other people whose application's look exactly like yours, maybe better. The fact that professors may be more apt to consider an applicant after being contacted by one of their colleagues is not nearly as sinister as you are making it out to be - it just means that the applicant will stand out more against the 50 other qualified applicants.

My personal experience - I asked a (very influential) person that I work with to write a special letter (sent via email) to my POI at one of my first choice schools, who he has known for years. I'm sure it helped me get in. However, when I met my POI, he had completely forgotten about the letter (I mentioned the person who wrote the letter for me and he said "oh right, you work with so and so" - but then he focused on other parts of my cv).

I also asked various people to contact other programs, and, again, I'm sure it didn't hurt, but one professor wasn't taking students and I discovered (during an interview) that another professor's research interests didn't align that well with mine. Obviously, I wasn't admitted to either school. I was flat out rejected from another program, by a professor that my boss did his post-doc with! I have no idea why I was rejected (great research match, etc) and I'm sure I'll never know - that’s just the nature of this process. There are so many random factors that can influence whether you are admitted, and no one part of your application (including contact between your current boss and your POI) is going to override all those other factors.

So - By all means, network! It can definitely help you stand out! But it doesn't guarantee anything and there certainly isn't some kind of nepotistic conspiracy going on behind the scenes!

 

[perfektspace]

Did you apply to the same programs, same labs each time? Or did you find new schools that interested you each year you applied?
If you did apply to the same labs, did you send emails to your POI's beforehand seeing if they were accepting students first? If you did - what did you write to them?
"Hey remember me? I applied last year, didn't get an interview from you, but I'm still very interested in your program so I'm trying to win you over again this year?"
Can you tell I'm dreading going through this process again?!

I understand you are dreading the reapplication process but it will be better next time. I reapplied and got in to a few programs this year. Your luck can certainly change.

I applied to roughly half "new" programs and half "old" programs from last year. Depending on how things shape up I may end up at a school that rejected me previously. Last year they did not interview me and this year they made an offer with a fellowship. Seems a bit strange but it goes to show how variable things can be from year to year. If you really like a few schools give them another shot but throw some new programs into the mix.

Email your prof's, perhaps with your CV, and let them know you are interested, ask them what they are doing in the next 5 years, if they are taking a student, and briefly state your interests and how they intersect with your POI. Based on their response, I found this to be a good way to gauge my chances. If you do apply to their program send a follow up email stating so and reassert your interest in their program and research. Personally I treated it just the same as if I had not been rejected the first time.

 

[perfektspace]

If you thought your application was strong the 1st time around, what did you do to strengthen it more?

Do you know any good websites that can help (personal statements, etc.)?

Thanks.

I reworked my personal statement with input from prof's and a post-doc. Way better than any website or book on the subject IMO. I will never know how much difference it made but it felt more natural and confident.

Other than that I reapplied with identical scores, LOR's and CV/experience. However, this time around more invites than I could physically attend and a couple offers. Sadly, this backs up the "crapshoot" theory... at least on paper. As my previous post states I had interviews and an offer in one case from a school that outright rejected me last year.

Although not directly application related, I had more email contact with prof's this year and I think that was very helpful to keep my name in the mix. A phone call is even better after an initial email introduction to discuss their work and the program briefly.

 

[Psychxiety]

I have been waiting months for someone to admit this part. This may be the most important thing ever stated on SDN Psychology. I would like to know how many people either got an interview or got accepted largely because their professor or person for whom they work/ do research has major connections at a school or schools? Also, I have never been to a graduate program interview which did not at least have a few people who were already in a given lab (or in classes with a professor) as an undergraduate or masters student. If so did these influential individuals do something other than just write a letter for you or did they personally contact the school. Also, what about behind the scenes wheeling and dealing? For example, a professor says to his friend at another school: "I will get in your student if you let in mine." Of course the general school statements say nothing about any of this academic nepotism if in fact it is taking place.

*Raises hand*- I definitely think my undergrad mentor's name was a big help in getting me interviews. I wouldn't go so far as to say his rep was "largely responsible," I like to think my credentials etc helped, but clearly his name had an impact on their impression of me. Everyone I interviewed with made some comment along the lines of "Wow, I'm really impressed that you've been working in Xs lab- they do great work."

My mentor just wrote a LOR for me. I don't think it's necessary to get your prof to call in your behalf...in fact IMO it might make you look like a weak candidate/suck up if your mentor has to intervene for you above and beyond the LOR. I will concede that a personal call might be really helpful if your prof is good personal friends with your POI. In this case it seems like your mentor should just take the initiative to call without any urging from you. In other words I wouldn't press the issue of a personal call with your mentor.

In terms of "wheeling and dealing", I've never heard of an "I'll take your student if you take mine" situation. Somehow I can't imagine this occurring. For one thing, profs like to be able to brag on the great programs their mentees got into. Having to bribe someone to take your student doesn't help in this arena. Secondly, if a prof has to bribe you to take their student…what does this say about the quality of this student? Would you really want to work with someone like that for the next 5-6 years? I don't think academic nepotism has gotten quite that insidious yet.

I think anyone who has gone through this process would tell you to take advantage of ANYTHING that will give you an extra edge and make your app stand out in the pile. There is no doubt that a recognizable name on your CV can have this effect. BUT- and this is important- the name might get your app a look but if you don't have the supporting credentials it won't save your app from the shredder.

Also, you will find networking continues to be crucial throughout an academic career. Take advantage of your interviews as an opportunity to make connections. You will be seeing these people again- conferences etc. Plus don't forget you still have to apply for internships, postdocs, assistant professorships etc. Who do you think will be reviewing those applications (or at least know someone who is)? Academia is a small world, especially if you specialize.

 

[terrybug]

I appreciate the response. Thanks for rescuing me from a threadjack!

I understand you are dreading the reapplication process but it will be better next time. I reapplied and got in to a few programs this year. Your luck can certainly change.

I applied to roughly half "new" programs and half "old" programs from last year. Depending on how things shape up I may end up at a school that rejected me previously. Last year they did not interview me and this year they made an offer with a fellowship. Seems a bit strange but it goes to show how variable things can be from year to year. If you really like a few schools give them another shot but throw some new programs into the mix.

Email your prof's, perhaps with your CV, and let them know you are interested, ask them what they are doing in the next 5 years, if they are taking a student, and briefly state your interests and how they intersect with your POI. Based on their response, I found this to be a good way to gauge my chances. If you do apply to their program send a follow up email stating so and reassert your interest in their program and research. Personally I treated it just the same as if I had not been rejected the first time.

 

[KillerDiller]

I changed my research focus somewhat in this (my second) round of applications, so I didn't end up applying to any of the same schools as I did last year. However, I still recommend getting in contact with your POIs if you do re-apply. Perhaps you could start the ball rolling by asking if they feel there is any way you can improve your app. That may segue nicely into stating your intention of applying to their lab again.

Good luck. It is really hard to get up the energy to give the whole process another try, but, as terrybug said, your luck can change dramatically.

 

[KillerDiller]

Oops. I mean, as perfektspace said...

 

[Lyn71785]

I would like to know how many people either got an interview or got accepted largely because their professor or person for whom they work/ do research has major connections at a school or schools?

It kind of scares me to think about this, but I had two interviews and at both places someone personally knew one of my mentors... and everyone had heard of another of my mentors. My top choice POI had collaborated with my mentor on a book, and the head of clinical training at another school had worked with my POI. I don't know how much influence that had (and I hope not much -- I'd rather get in on merit) but if that was the only thing that got me an interview... I guess I'll take it.

 

[Ella_Mental]

For what it's worth here's my $.02:

I didn't end up applying to the same programs. Only 1 out of the original 12 was still in-line with my interests but, unfortunately she was not accepting a student for Fall '07, so here is what I did.

-I took 4 years off inbetween application time #1 and application time #2.

-In that time I did some teaching, got a job as an RA, received my MA (be warned: I'm not here to debate this decision guys, so don't jump down my throat with the +s and -s of this), moved out, traveled, worked, had fun, developed myself more by meeting new people and reworked/re-examined my research interests

-Technical stuff: I had 3 PhDs read my personal statement and tear it apart on request and eventually went through about 10 revisions, I made contact with POIs early, I chose schools based solely on fit and ignored size, ranking, environment, etc.

-In the end I chose which school to attend based on the enthusiasm of the POI to have me.


For me, waiting was what really worked and the time spent in the work force really made me a much more confident person and willing to say what I can and cannot do, what I wont do, and what I would like to do.

I will end this by saying that in back-to-back years re-applying to the same place usually isn't very fruitful especially, IMO, if you made it to the interview stage and then were turned down. At that point, all candidates being equal, something about you/your personality just didn't fit. Waiting another year may not, and probably will not, change that fact. If you never received an interview in the first place, maybe submit again!

*ella

 

[cleverclover]

I applied three times. The first time applying, I was only admitted to a master's program, so I went there. Two years later I applied to 20 schools. I received an offer from one of the schools, but it was not funded and I didn't feel that is was a good fit, so I turned it down. I waited two more years to apply again. Although I wanted to apply the next cycle, I realized I really couldn't do much in the nine months I had to make myself more competitive and also a job is more likely to take you on as an RA if you give a two year comittment versus a one year.
I found an RA posistion at a school I really wanted to attend, doing the type of research I wanted to do. It helped me get more research and clinical work in the area I wanted to pursue, two strong LORs, and great networking. I worked on getting more publications, although I already had some. I retook the GRE's, although I thought my scores were fine from before. I reworked my entire personal statement and had several grad students and PhD's look over it. I also contacted POI's during the summer and let them know I was interested in the program, what my background was, and how I could contribute to their research. I learned no matter how strong of a candidate I thought I was the first or second time around, I could always make myself a little stronger.
With all that being said, I think luck has a big part in the process. I applied to three of the same schools I applied to two years ago (and was rejected from without an interview). I received interviews and acceptances from two of the three. I decided not to reapply to any of the places I interviewed in the past, because I figured there was some personal reason they did not choose me the first time and probably not much had changed.
The best advice I can give is don't give up. After getting rejected from 19 schools the second time I was ready to change career paths. But I am happy I stuck with it for two more years, and will be starting school in the fall.