Question from accepted medical school student

[Guile]

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[dynx]

Since you guys are in a helping-those-out-younger-than-you mode, I thought I would ask another question.

How would you all classify the effect that your med school's prestige and/or ranking has or had on where you matched? As you can see from my signature, I've been accepted at Vanderbilt. I can see my med school decision coming down to Vandy or a school of similar tuition cost versus my state school--the Medical College of Georgia where tuition is $12K/year. Also, the cost of living there is really cheap. I could see myself happy at both, but my biggest concern is that I want to match at a top academic surgery program (maybe not the Brigham, but something really strong in the South like Vanderbilt or UVA). I've asked lots of physicians this question, and many have advised me to go to MCG and save the money--med school name doesn't matter. But I know one area where med school name does matter--connections. If Dr. Tarpley says I walk on water (this is, of course, a huge assumption that I would impress him that much but you get the point), I think that would carry a lot farther in the match than a board score that's 10 points higher from MCG. Whatever my decision is, I just don't want to have any regrets--whether it's going to Vandy and graduating with $250K of debt, and two of my fellow interns are from MCG (as in, why didn't I go to MCG?) or going to MCG, and not matching at as good of a place as I would like to have.

I know that people match well from MCG every year. Last year there was a guy who matched at WashU urology, a Duke neurosurg match, and a Vandy surgery match, among others. However, my assessment is that yes, you can match at just about any program from any med school, but you would have to be in the top 10 of your class, get a 250+ on step 1, get AOA, and have the most amazing recs ever. I feel that this puts a ton of pressure on my performance in med school. What if I can't get AOA? What if I study for 6 weeks straight and get a 230 on step 1? Then I'm just an average applicant from an unranked school with little hope of matching at a great academic surgery program.

So, all that said, what would you guys, having gone through the match and with the wisdom that you have, recommend?

As far as I know, MCG has a pretty good reputation. I dont think the Vandy name will help you all that much more. Lets face it, no matter where you go you will get about the same board score, individual effort and ability has more to do than your institution with that. After that, AOA and clinical grades and class rank are next in importance. Those have to do with your effort and ability as well as your competition, you may be challenged more at Vandy and assuming you rise to the occasion you may perform at a higher level, but so will your classmates...so its a wash. Finally, third factor is name of institution and recommendations, unless you get a big name LOR or phone call on your behalf it wont make a difference. Basically you're gonna gamble a couple 100k on a 10% or so CHANCE that you get a better residency?

I made the same decision. Pritzker vs. state school (I think Pritzker used to be top ten), turned it down for my state school. Good decision. Hasn't hurt me. Its a tough decision though.

 

[reglan]

I have a chief that went to MCG. She is brilliant, fun, and has a fellowship in vascular. I also know someone who is fully satisfied w vanderbilt as a medical school. I would pick the place that you like most. Your chances for a residency are no better at one or the other of those places. Basically you seem like a worried, over analyzing pre-med. My medical school eats people like you for breakfast. It won't matter where you go because you will find little success.

 

[Guile]

My medical school eats people like you for breakfast. It won't matter where you go because you will find little success.

I think I'll be fine, thanks. Where do you go to school?

I made the same decision. Pritzker vs. state school (I think Pritzker used to be top ten), turned it down for my state school. Good decision. Hasn't hurt me. Its a tough decision though.

You're from California? So you turned Pritzker down for what, UCSF, UCLA? That doesn't seem like such a tough call.

Any other thoughts?

 

[dynx]

I think I'll be fine, thanks. Where do you go to school?


You're from California? So you turned Pritzker down for what, UCSF, UCLA? That doesn't seem like such a tough call.

Any other thoughts?

It does make it easier. It wasn't UCSF, that would have been a no brainer. My thoughts remain the same.

 

[tooshorttoolong]

I disagree that school rep doesn't play a role. You will be a much safer applicant to the top general surgery programs as a student from Vanderbilt. The top programs will not have a track record from MCG, and they may not look at you, no matter your qualifications. You need the people before you to have paved the way.

 

[Guile]

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[fahimaz7]

Basically you seem like a worried, over analyzing pre-med.

Lol.. I felt the same way.

 

[Guile]

Lol.. I felt the same way.

Or perhaps I'm trying to weigh all of my options and make the best decision regarding the most important decision of my life to this point...

 

[fahimaz7]

Don't you still have 4 years left before you even graduate?

 

[Guile]

I'm a senior in college. I graduate in May. Unless you mean med school, then yes, I would graduate from med school in four years. But I think it's wise to start planning before then.

 

[Blade28]

This may differ from conventional wisdom, but I wouldn't let money be a factor in deciding where to attend med school. I took out a bunch of loans, like most in med school, and am now deferring them until after residency. You'll be able to pay off the debt later - right now, I'd pick the strongest education you can and just strive to do well.

 

[uclachris]

When posed with a similar situation b/w a ranked school and a state school. One of the docs who I was working with (and was the PD for UCLA's IM program at the time) told me this: Go to the place that you are most comfortable and happy with. If its the ranked school, or the state school, it doesnt matter; because the primary criteria for residency placement is how you do in school and your boards -- not where. And if you are in a place that you hate, you will not do as well as the place that you fit in best (this can apply to the ranked school or state school). He also said that he would not have the cost of the education factor highly in where one should go.

 

[njbmd]

My choice of medical school had little or no effect on my residency. My performance in medical school had a significant effect on my residency. I chose my school based on two issues: 1. a full-ride tuition scholarship 2. atmosphere. In the end, I did very well (AOA and excellent USMLE scores) at my school. I have practically no debt from medical school (owe $40K at 2.98% interest) and further I get out from medical school, the less effect my medical school has on my life.

If prestige is important to you, then by all means, attend the most prestigous medical school that you can get into. In terms of residency, I dont' know for sure (100%) that I would not have ended up in another location if I had gone to another school. I DO know that from participation in the selection process for incoming residents, that school is not a factor in our decisions in terms of ranking a residency candidate. Performance (PERFORMANCE) in medical school (grades & board scores) is a huge factor.

My advice is to choose the school where you will be the most comfortable and can perform your best because in the end, it is your performance that will open (or close) doors for you. Choose the school where you love the atmosphere, the curriculum and where you feel you can excell.

 

[jbean]

Go to the best school you can get into. Don't worry about loans, as you will always be able to pay them back... unless you might quit before you finish - then definitely go to the cheaper school.

Think about it this way - Let's say you don't end up being in the top 20% of your class or getting AOA. Don't forget - you will be going to school with the most competitive, type A, tight sphincter people - nothing compared to your undergrad pre-med compatriots. Let's say you end up in the 50% of your class - you'd rather be the 50% at a top school than the 50% at an average school.

Just my thoughts...

 

[Pilot Doc]

Basically you seem like a worried, over analyzing pre-med.

There are a lot of over-analyizing med students and pre-meds and high school students on this board. I keep wanting to put up a joke post from parents wondering which kindergarten, infant foruma, IVF technique, etc. will best prepare their child for surgery residency. But this poster is not over analyzing. It's a VERY legitimate question - do I spend and extra $100K or more to go to a name brand school versus a state school?

If the goal of getting into a respected regional program - UVa, Vandy, Emory, etc, then you will probably have a better chance coming from Vandy. (This assume you do as well at Vandy as you will at MCG.) Academic surgery is a small field - pedigree and connections count. That doesn't mean you can't do it from MCG, though, nor does it mean that you will have bad choices coming from MCG.

My advice would favor MCG. From my n=5ish observations of the medical schools I and my family/close friends have been associated with, medical students are better served at state institutions with limited budgets and large indigent populations than at private med schools with lots of money. You will have the best experience at a school where med students bear a substantial amount of the clinical workload rather than just tagging along and watching the residents take care of patients. I don't think the preclinical years matter - the ONLY thing that matters from your first two years is your board scores. These will be roughty equivalent on a percentile basis to your previous standarized test scores. If you rocked the SAT and MCAT, you will rock Step 1. If you did well, you will do well, etc. And you could take the 1st two years of med school by correspondence anyway.


The money issue is not to be disregarded either. Sure - if you HATE the idea of going to MCG and it will make you miserable, go to Vandy. But that extra $100K+ in loans, though it doesn't seem like it now, will be real money someday. It will mean you have to spend more time away from your family or put them in a smaller house or pass up your 1st choice job. Those things will be of more importance to you in 10 years than whether you got your 1st or 4th choice residency slot.

 

[lennox23]

for some reason, this post compelled me to write. it was heartbreaking, in a way. the "joke" a few threads up was, apparently, no joke. if you feed your baby the right formula, get them in the right type of preschool, the the best grammar school, spend summers in SAT prep courses, pay a zillion dollars to a tutor then every step along the way becomes just that...a step.

when do you stop and live your life? as a pre med student, what are you, 21 years old? and every day you've been worrying about the next step. and now you're worrying about what will happen four years from now?! your'e some early 20's and worrying about the next step seems your priority....i'm serioiusly heartbroken and sad.

how can you expect, as a surgeon, to ask people to take care of themselves, how can you expect to take care of them, when you spend more time worrying, than taking care of YOU?

your life is meant to be lived not to be perseverated. what if, in four years, you fall in love and dont want to be in the southeast at all? what if you love psychiatry? what if, god forbid (as has happened to my friend) you are a paraplegic from a freak ski accident? what if you have all your priorities reorganized by a parent having pancreatic cancer?

you've got to stop worrying and start living your life. every day, for that day, being present and gentle with life and not worry wart gunner pre med student making up calculations about how you can get to where adn worrying about what you're doing 4 years from now (some of the best four years of my life were medical school, by the way!) and i never knew how much i'd love surgery, how things change!

you just need to relax and start breathing and living and get out of that worried-sick "live for the next step" mentality. you honestly never know what will happen to your or your life.

go with what makes you smile and happy. life does not have to be a chore, or a stepping stone for what's "next.".
good luck...!

 

[VA1]

While going to a place like MCG will not prevent you from going to a top-notch residency program, going to a place like Vandy will make it easier. Like you said, a letter and a phone call from a well-known surgeon can go a long way in terms of getting into a solid residency program. I wouldn't pat attention to the people posting that are saying you are over-analyzing and worrying too much. I think it's good that you're thinking ahead. The med school you attend for the next 4 years will be on your CV for life. With that said, you ultimately have to go somewhere you'll be happy, but if you like Vanderbilt and MCG equally you cannot pass up the opportunity to go to a nationally recognized, excellent school.

 

[Guile]

I just wanted to post an update. I got into Baylor which offers the best of both worlds IMO. It's a top 10 school with an excellent surgery program, and their OOS tuition is not that bad ($22K) and you can get in-state tuition after a year (about $12K/year). So I will most likely be in Houston starting this summer.

Thanks again to those who replied with well-intentioned thoughts.

 

[Winged Scapula]

I just wanted to post an update. I got into Baylor which offers the best of both worlds IMO. It's a top 10 school with an excellent surgery program, and their OOS tuition is not that bad ($22K) and you can get in-state tuition after a year (about $12K/year). So I will most likely be in Houston starting this summer.

Thanks again to those who replied with well-intentioned thoughts.

Congrats!

 

[Tigger14]

One thing that can help, no matter where you go, is away rotations. I did this as a fourth year medical student, and it helped tremendously. If a place has a reputation for fair evalaution of a student, and you want to go there, go spend a month so you can see if you fit in and if the faculty are people with whom you can work. Be careful, though, because some places are very hard on medical students, and don't take any who rotate with them. This is information you can get as you approach 4th year.

Good luck.

PS -- I did not go to a "big name" medical school or a "big name" surgery residency for that matter. I am going to a very big name fellowship... there are no hard and fast rules to how things turn out.

 

[Guile]

One thing that can help, no matter where you go, is away rotations. I did this as a fourth year medical student, and it helped tremendously. If a place has a reputation for fair evalaution of a student, and you want to go there, go spend a month so you can see if you fit in and if the faculty are people with whom you can work. Be careful, though, because some places are very hard on medical students, and don't take any who rotate with them. This is information you can get as you approach 4th year.

Good luck.

PS -- I did not go to a "big name" medical school or a "big name" surgery residency for that matter. I am going to a very big name fellowship... there are no hard and fast rules to how things turn out.

There seem to be two different schools of thought on away rotations. One group obviously strongly encourages them, of course. But there appears to be a minority at least that discourages doing them. I believe Pilot Doc is one of the latter. Maybe he'll chime in... Thanks for the response.