Question in interventional pain coming from PM&R

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DannMann99

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SDN, you've always been a huge help in the past and hoping now you can point me in the right direction.

I'm a PM&R Doc (independent physician) getting credentialed at a new hospital who is looking for someone to do some interventional spine stuff as well. They asked me to do some work in their surgical center. In training i've done a HANDFUL of these procedures (maybe 5 TFESI, about 5 interlaminar, a handful more caudals, and maybe 10-20 facet blocks). My malpractice will cover interventions so that shouldn't be much of an issue.

At this point in my career i'm not going back to do a fellowship, but I'd like to atleast get some kind of certification or significant CMEs with hands-on experience.

Can anyone suggest anything?

Thank you as always,

Respectfully

Dr. DM

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SIS courses. I’m surprised your malpractice covers someone without any true interventional experiences. Yikes!


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SDN, you've always been a huge help in the past and hoping now you can point me in the right direction.

I'm a PM&R Doc (independent physician) getting credentialed at a new hospital who is looking for someone to do some interventional spine stuff as well. They asked me to do some work in their surgical center. In training i've done a HANDFUL of these procedures (maybe 5 TFESI, about 5 interlaminar, a handful more caudals, and maybe 10-20 facet blocks). My malpractice will cover interventions so that shouldn't be much of an issue.

At this point in my career i'm not going back to do a fellowship, but I'd like to atleast get some kind of certification or significant CMEs with hands-on experience.

Can anyone suggest anything?

Thank you as always,

Respectfully

Dr. DM


You should be good. Why did you overkill it with 20 facets? Should have stopped at 5 like the rest.
I hope we have different malpractice carriers
 
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I agree with SIS courses. Here is the link:

Bio-Skills Lab Curricula - Spine Intervention Society

They are the gold standard for how to do spinal procedures with good technique. They have both basic and advanced courses. However, the more experience you have with needle control, the more helpful those courses will be in fine tuning your technique. Good luck!
 
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At the risk of sounding rude, is your specialty interventional pain? If not, don't do the procedures. I come from an anesthesia background and did hundreds of nerve blocks, epidurals, etc during training, but I still wouldn't do interventional pain stuff as a general anesthesiologist. Leave it to the specialists.
 
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At the risk of sounding rude, is your specialty interventional pain? If not, don't do the procedures. I come from an anesthesia background and did hundreds of nerve blocks, epidurals, etc during training, but I still wouldn't do interventional pain stuff as a general anesthesiologist. Leave it to the specialists.


Eh no need to be rude man. I have SOME experience and there is a real unmet need in the community. Certainly had no interest in breaking into an area and stealing business from anyone, actually doing fine on my own WITHOUT the procedures, just trying to take care of my community and fill a healthcare gap. What's ridiculous is where I trained there were pain mills all over the place who would have PAs do the procedures... So my plan is to start slow, be cautious, pickup some extra training where I can, and fill a healthcare gap. I'm not trying to do anything crazy, my thoughts are caudals and lumbar interlaminars.
 
Op: you can do what you wish. But keep in mind one thing: no matter how “conservative” you are, **** happens and litigation ensues. The first question you will get asked is: what formal training have you had? If you say I had weekend courses, then good luck! There will be plenty of people who would be more than willing to testify against you in that setting. That said, I would extend this advice to anyone who lacks formal training, regardless of the primary specialty background. Good luck.


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Op: you can do what you wish. But keep in mind one thing: no matter how “conservative” you are, **** happens and litigation ensues. The first question you will get asked is: what formal training have you had? If you say I had weekend courses, then good luck! There will be plenty of people who would be more than willing to testify against you in that setting. That said, I would extend this advice to anyone who lacks formal training, regardless of the primary specialty background. Good luck.


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+1

OP- Most hospital systems are moving towards requirement of board certification for pain management specialists for exactly this reason. This is a litigious population and you are driving needles around the spinal cord. You will have no leg to stand on in court. Just because people do this all over the country doesn't make it good practice.

- ex 61N
 
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Op: you can do what you wish. But keep in mind one thing: no matter how “conservative” you are, **** happens and litigation ensues. The first question you will get asked is: what formal training have you had? If you say I had weekend courses, then good luck! There will be plenty of people who would be more than willing to testify against you in that setting. That said, I would extend this advice to anyone who lacks formal training, regardless of the primary specialty background. Good luck.


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Somewhat related question, do non-Anesthesia ACGME trained pain physicians (ie, PMR/Neuro/Psych/ER) have a higher chance of getting in hot water with malpractice, or is it all even steven as long as you are ACGME fellowship trained in pain medicine?
 
do non-Anesthesia ACGME trained pain physicians (ie, PMR/Neuro/Psych/ER) have a higher chance of getting in hot water with malpractice, or is it all even steven as long as you are ACGME fellowship trained in pain medicine?

I'm not aware of data linking ACGME training to better outcomes or less liability for pain medicine.

It's probably more the individuals than their training, but the training clears a minimum bar most of the time. More importantly, it gives you a set of faculty/friends to bounce things off when the poop hits the fan.

As far as the anesthesia part, I'm not sure what it adds other than a generally shared mindset with a healthy fear of the 1/10000 events. I've found skilled and unskilled folks from across the different training paths, with or without a fellowship.
 
Somewhat related question, do non-Anesthesia ACGME trained pain physicians (ie, PMR/Neuro/Psych/ER) have a higher chance of getting in hot water with malpractice, or is it all even steven as long as you are ACGME fellowship trained in pain medicine?

by hot water with malpractice, what are you referring to?
 
Just any general malpractice. Nothing specific

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interestingly, when I applied for malpractice insurance I don't remember them even asking me if i was boarded in my field.

just asked a bunch of questions re what procedures i was going to perform, and if i had any previous litigation, pending suits, etc
 
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Interventional spine fellowship nightmare

I thought I share this horrible experience with all of you. Maybe it will teach all of you something about doing a fellowship and getting a job. Conversely, maybe someone has a suggestion for me.

I recently finished what ended up being a clinical fellowship in physiatry spine at a prestigious hospital. I am in a rather atypical situation. The fellowship that I was in originally also offered some minimal training in interventional spine procedures, which consisted of one day a week of observation of procedures and another half day a week of performing them under supervision.

The atypical situation is as follows: I was not progressing very fast in performing the procedures, I attribute this to not having this experience during my residency training to any lengthy degree. During this fellowship, the interventional training I received was also not extensive. It was as if they expected me to already be able to perform these procedures at the start of the fellowship. I also had some issues reading x-rays at the beginning of the fellowship and finding the correct targets in arthritic joints. However, I started to progress and feel more confident approximately halfway through the fellowship. Rest assured, I vigorously studied anatomy and procedure books on a full-time basis during that time, as I realized my deficiencies. Despite the progress I was making, they decided to take me off of procedures at the six month mark.

From the very beginning of the fellowship, it was emphasized that interventional procedures were not the main focus, and this was quite obvious by the low volume that I would see during a week. The main preceptor that I had stated that she feels like could become better if I had a higher volume. She tried to get me more time doing procedures with other clinicians but was unsuccessful in getting me a significantly higher volume.

I continued to pursue how to improve performing the procedures. I found some great resources on the Spine Interventional Society website in regards to reading fluoroscopic anatomy. In addition to this, I eventually stumbled upon a simulator that could be used under live floro. The main issues that I was having were needlecraft/precision getting to at target consistently as well as manipulating the florscope to get a perfect picture of the target. Let's be honest, this is a skill that can be improved with practice. The more I used this simulator during a two day workshop, the more comfortable I started to feel. After the conference, I purchased one and just received it.

A new problem that arised was that I was able to get a physiatry job that had involved performing some interventional spine procedures. Since this hospital staff never told me of any specific requirements or any formal piece of paper proving that I was proficient performing the procedures wasn't needed. I felt that this job was a good fit for me. I was always honest with them and told them that my current skill level is not that of a full-time interventionist but would most likely improve overtime with practice and continued education in both conferences and with my new simulator. Verbally, they were in agreement with this. I signed a contract with them back on April 30, 2018 and was slated to start working for them on August 6, 2018. However, they received an accucheck form from my fellowship program that had a checkbox checked off as me not having received full credit for the fellowship due to "only marginal skills at performing spinal injections.” I was told that my clinical skills surpassed that of previous fellows, but my inability to do procedures at the six month mark really caused a big problem to get any gainful employment. Thus, the hospital that hired me told me to withdraw my application for employment, as I most definitely would be denied privileges.

The truth is, I did not get a fair chance to become proficient in performing these procedures. I am trying very hard not to do another fellowship year, as I do not believe I need it. I am not trying to be a needle jockey; Rather, I am only asking for a chance to be able to perform the procedures that I am comfortable in in a hospital or practice setting. Throughout time, I will become better and more proficient. I really do not know how to proceed from here. I'm about to take a full time position in urgent care despite having a physiatry residency training and a fellowship in spine at a prestigious academic institution. I refuse to do inpatient rehab, as I do not enjoy it and do not feel I can utilize my skills in that environment.

Does anyone have any idea how I should proceed in at least having the ability to prove myself again in interventional procedures without taking a 300% pay cut (doing another fellowship) and probably having to move to some other city with my wife and my two young children? For instance, does anybody know of any proctoring programs that can assist people trying to add procedures after the training? I spoke to a surgeon who states that he learned how to do a colonoscopy after his residency training and had to get specific proctoring and ordered you get privileges to perform the colonoscopies at a hospital. I wasn't sure if anyone else was aware of this.
 
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Interventional spine fellowship nightmare

I thought I share this horrible experience with all of you. Maybe it will teach all of you something about doing a fellowship and getting a job. Conversely, maybe someone has a suggestion for me.

I recently finished what ended up being a clinical fellowship in physiatry spine at a prestigious hospital. I am in a rather atypical situation. The fellowship that I was in originally also offered some minimal training in interventional spine procedures, which consisted of one day a week of observation of procedures and another half day a week of performing them under supervision.

The atypical situation is as follows: I was not progressing very fast in performing the procedures, I attribute this to not having this experience during my residency training to any lengthy degree. During this fellowship, the interventional training I received was also not extensive. It was as if they expected me to already be able to perform these procedures at the start of the fellowship. I also had some issues reading x-rays at the beginning of the fellowship and finding the correct targets in arthritic joints. However, I started to progress and feel more confident approximately halfway through the fellowship. Rest assured, I vigorously studied anatomy and procedure books on a full-time basis during that time, as I realized my deficiencies. Despite the progress I was making, they decided to take me off of procedures at the six month mark.

From the very beginning of the fellowship, it was emphasized that interventional procedures were not the main focus, and this was quite obvious by the low volume that I would see during a week. The main preceptor that I had stated that she feels like could become better if I had a higher volume. She tried to get me more time doing procedures with other clinicians but was unsuccessful in getting me a significantly higher volume.

I continued to pursue how to improve performing the procedures. I found some great resources on the Spine Interventional Society website in regards to reading fluoroscopic anatomy. In addition to this, I eventually stumbled upon a simulator that could be used under live floro. The main issues that I was having were needlecraft/precision getting to at target consistently as well as manipulating the florscope to get a perfect picture of the target. Let's be honest, this is a skill that can be improved with practice. The more I used this simulator during a two day workshop, the more comfortable I started to feel. After the conference, I purchased one and just received it.

A new problem that arised was that I was able to get a physiatry job that had involved performing some interventional spine procedures. Since this hospital staff never told me of any specific requirements or any formal piece of paper proving that I was proficient performing the procedures wasn't needed. I felt that this job was a good fit for me. I was always honest with them and told them that my current skill level is not that of a full-time interventionist but would most likely improve overtime with practice and continued education in both conferences and with my new simulator. Verbally, they were in agreement with this. I signed a contract with them back on April 30, 2018 and was slated to start working for them on August 6, 2018. However, they received an accucheck form from my fellowship program that had a checkbox checked off as me not having received full credit for the fellowship due to "only marginal skills at performing spinal injections.” I was told that my clinical skills surpassed that of previous fellows, but my inability to do procedures at the six month mark really caused a big problem to get any gainful employment. Thus, the hospital that hired me told me to withdraw my application for employment, as I most definitely would be denied privileges.

The truth is, I did not get a fair chance to become proficient in performing these procedures. I am trying very hard not to do another fellowship year, as I do not believe I need it. I am not trying to be a needle jockey; Rather, I am only asking for a chance to be able to perform the procedures that I am comfortable in in a hospital or practice setting. Throughout time, I will become better and more proficient. I really do not know how to proceed from here. I'm about to take a full time position in urgent care despite having a physiatry residency training and a fellowship in spine at a prestigious academic institution. I refuse to do inpatient rehab, as I do not enjoy it and do not feel I can utilize my skills in that environment.

Does anyone have any idea how I should proceed in at least having the ability to prove myself again in interventional procedures without taking a 300% pay cut (doing another fellowship) and probably having to move to some other city with my wife and my two young children? For instance, does anybody know of any proctoring programs that can assist people trying to add procedures after the training? I spoke to a surgeon who states that he learned how to do a colonoscopy after his residency training and had to get specific proctoring and ordered you get privileges to perform the colonoscopies at a hospital. I wasn't sure if anyone else was aware of this.
.
Seems to me you have multiple options, but the option that makes the most sense to me is to have an honest conversation with your program director and find out exactly what you need do to get your //"only marginal skills at performing spinal injections.”// removed.
Here is the problem - any job you apply for is going to request information from your fellowship program. Unless you get //"only marginal skills at performing spinal injections.”// removed, it will follow you forever. It would not surprise me if it even affected your ability to take the pain certification exam. You certainly should not have to repeat your entire fellowship if it is the same program. Your program director should never have let you out the door without fixing this first.
 
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im really not surprised you didnt get better quickly with only half a day/week of procedures. Sounds like they failed in their training of you. It wont get you anywhere telling them that.....maybe someone local will let you shadow them so you get more volume. Also what simulator are u speaking of? And what procedures exactly did they feel you werent qualified to do?
 
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Yes, I am also interested to know what this stimulator is that you used... I also agree that working something out with your fellowship director will likely be the only helpful course of action. Perhaps they would let you do an extra 6 months or hook you up with an alumni of the fellowship to shadow for that period of time..
 
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Speaking as a former PD I would comment that unless you were dangerous your PD had no business stopping you from doing procedures at the 6 month mark. You were there to learn as much as you could with what they could provide you. You don’t need to be an ace coming out of fellowship. Some have more procedural exposure than others. There are plenty of learning opportunities after fellowship and let’s face it you learn a lot on the job. You can do that safely as long as you are careful and humble and open to learning from others.
I would agree with addressing this with the PD and working out a mutually agreeable solution. I would hint at the fact that what she put in writing is hindering you from gainful employment .


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Speaking as a former PD I would comment that unless you were dangerous your PD had no business stopping you from doing procedures at the 6 month mark.

Reading in between the lines, someone thought he was dangerous.

And with a spine fellowship that described itself as minimally interventional, I'm not sure why anyone would think they would be able to do procedures competently at the end. Basically you completed 1/2 of a procedures exposure that gave you maybe 1/5 of the exposure of an interventional fellowship and you're wondering why someone won't take a change on someone with 1/10 the skills......... being a pain doctor isn't a reward for how nice you are or how genuinely you want to practice. Patients pay good money expecting the correct treatment. Every time a patient goes to see a pain doctor and they get a botched procedure that doesn't work, they tell other people not to get injections because they don't work and it causes more pain and nerve problems. Drives me nuts.
 
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Perhaps we don’t have the entire story. If he was dangerous then the fair thing to do is remove him from the program not let him complete it. Instead you are wasting the trainee’s time and using them for cheap labor.


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Your options:
1. Do a pain fellowship, a real ACGME one
2. Throw away any crappy accreditation you got from that “fellowship” - worthless. You got duped to being scut monkey for a year.
3. Opennup your own pain clinic and go solo. Take SIS confeeences to bone up on procedures.
 
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any chance the Sergeant wants to save someone else from that fellowship by naming said fellowship?
 
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SDN, you've always been a huge help in the past and hoping now you can point me in the right direction.

I'm a PM&R Doc (independent physician) getting credentialed at a new hospital who is looking for someone to do some interventional spine stuff as well. They asked me to do some work in their surgical center. In training i've done a HANDFUL of these procedures (maybe 5 TFESI, about 5 interlaminar, a handful more caudals, and maybe 10-20 facet blocks). My malpractice will cover interventions so that shouldn't be much of an issue.

At this point in my career i'm not going back to do a fellowship, but I'd like to atleast get some kind of certification or significant CMEs with hands-on experience.

Can anyone suggest anything?

Thank you as always,

Respectfully

Dr. DM
As far as litigation goes, for sure have an accredited fellowship helps! But as far as doing the procedures goes, it's very different. I know many people who did pain fellowships. but they only did a few types of procedures. Then in practice, they would take a weekend course and start doing every new type of procedure that came out.
 
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Perhaps we don’t have the entire story. If he was dangerous then the fair thing to do is remove him from the program not let him complete it. Instead you are wasting the trainee’s time and using them for cheap labor.

The program wasn't meant to be interventional, he wrote it "consisted of one day a week of observation of procedures and another half day a week of performing them under supervision." Assuming 4 weeks of vacation, he basically was allotted 24 days of completing procedures. That's not a pain fellowship, that's like summer camp. They just had him do more of...whatever else you do in a spine fellowship that isn't interventional.
 
The program wasn't meant to be interventional, he wrote it "consisted of one day a week of observation of procedures and another half day a week of performing them under supervision." Assuming 4 weeks of vacation, he basically was allotted 24 days of completing procedures. That's not a pain fellowship, that's like summer camp. They just had him do more of...whatever else you do in a spine fellowship that isn't interventional.

I don’t know the PM&R world but aren’t a lot of non accredited SPINE fellowships like that? Aren’t there ALOT of guys out there who trained in those programs who work in busy ortho practices including some of the giant practices?


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As someone that went to this fellowship and worked with the individual in question... the account is bias...
there are 2 full days available to perform procedures in the fellowship
One day turn into observation because those attends didn’t want him in the room cause he couldn’t get his on gloves sterile 3 months in.
At 6 months he was placed on probation to remediate his lack of floro anatomy and procedure proficiency
I personally made him write algorithms and review Furman.
At 9 month he could’t tell the difference from the facet or spinous process on an oblique veiw
He said it wasn’t a big deal
I told him he would be doing procedure with me anymore
I voted to fail him on remediation
I told him not to use me as a reference when he asked because I didn’t think he could perform procedures independently. Said it to his face.
We didn’t fire home cause his wife was pregnant and we thought with some extra EMG trading and clinic time would could help him be a competent MSK provider while he was looking for a job.
He took a job to build a Pain practice from scratch and they sent credentials it was answered honestly.

The fellowship is a job he could have gave his notice when we stoped training him in spine. He chose to stay. Chose a job and listed us on his resume. I’m not sure what he expected to happen.

I am not the program director but I work in the group.

This is me trying not to make it personal and I don’t use a throwaway account due to my respect and admiration of the senior member on this board
 
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if that were the case, what you state, he would have been kicked out of an accredited ACGME fellowship program. at 3 months in.



just sayin'...
 
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I don’t know the PM&R world but aren’t a lot of non accredited SPINE fellowships like that? Aren’t there ALOT of guys out there who trained in those programs who work in busy ortho practices including some of the giant practices?


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Yup some of them know how to do like 3 injections making 500k/year all office based setup.
 
if that were the case, what you state, he would have been kicked out of an accredited ACGME fellowship program. at 3 months in.



just sayin'...
I didn’t become involved until 6 months... and initially I thought it was exaggerated... but he has no awareness of how bad he is and does not accept criticism... he kept pleading for chances the program director kept trying to give them to him... always had excuses( tools of manipulation) I won’t list them because the are personal and pull at the heart. In retrospect tools of manipulation. In 18yrs they have never had to do this before.
 
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Thanks for the other side of the story. Restores my faith in humanity.


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It’s called downstream revenue (injection, surgery, MRI, PT) determining value... also work at hospitals with pain or IR that only inject like Kaiser
Yes feeding the ancially monstrosity and getting a small albeit nice chunk in return
 
Your options:
1. Do a pain fellowship, a real ACGME one
2. Throw away any crappy accreditation you got from that “fellowship” - worthless. You got duped to being scut monkey for a year.
3. Opennup your own pain clinic and go solo. Take SIS confeeences to bone up on procedures.

These suggestions are all good alternatives. To Seargent415er, regardless of your experience with that fellowship program, I would continue to focus on getting better with your interventional skills. You have more than enough training on non-interventional spine care, so you do not need any more of that. In my opinion, the primary goal of any interventional spine fellowship is to develop good hand-eye coordination and needle control. Once you do enough cases, one day it clicks, and you will be able to get the needle to where you want to go on the image with minimal passes. Everything else, including anatomy, you can learn later on as you go. So how can you get more hands-on experience? You can continue to practice with that simulator you purchased or you can sign up for some of those SIS courses, as they have basic and advanced. I do not think you need to repeat your fellowship unless you feel you really need the additional hands-on experience at a significantly discounted rate.

I agree with what everyone else has said about getting an interventional spine job. If you cannot get the program director of your fellowship to change that comment about marginal skills with spinal procedures, then either leave the fellowship off your resume or do not bother mentioning it as a spine fellowship. There are practices out there that hire physiatrists for spine injections without any interventional spine fellowships, but they are usually smaller private practices that are not primarily based at hospitals where they require hospital credentialing and privileges for those procedures, as long as you can confidently perform lumbar facet and transforaminal and interlaminar epidural injections. I would stay away from any cervical injections until you feel more confident in your procedural skills, as there is less room for error in the cervical than in the thoracic or lumbar spine. Those practices may even pay you to take SIS courses, so you can eventually do more advanced procedures under their expense. I know of a practice where they hired someone straight from physiatry residency with some interventional experience who's following that path.

To any future trainees, prestigious institutions do not equal good interventional training. Performing interventional procedures well is similar to performing any technical skills well, whether that be performing surgery, playing golf, or playing the piano, in that VOLUME and REPETITION matter. If you ever work with good surgical residents, you will notice that they want to be in the operating room whenever they can because they know their surgical skills are dependent on how many hours they spend operating and not on how many hours they spend managing patients on the floor.
 
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Just do EMG’s, trigger points, rx gabapentin, OMT, etc.
There is a doc here that only does that for a big ortho group. She is listed as an owner in their hospital.
 
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Just do EMG’s, trigger points, rx gabapentin, OMT, etc.
There is a doc here that only does that for a big ortho group. She is listed as an owner in their hospital.
These are the ones who know how to bill fraud and get away with it...total body omt in 2 minutes, billing acupuncture when it’s actually dry needling, level 5 consults with a fraudulent physical exam. Know a guy who’s been doing it for years..never been caught..will probably die a very rich man...
 
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I can confirm the very rapid OMT and trigger points but very good PE and EMGs with a lot of time scheduled/EMG.

Probably level 5 though, you are right.
 
im really not surprised you didnt get better quickly with only half a day/week of procedures. Sounds like they failed in their training of you. It wont get you anywhere telling them that.....maybe someone local will let you shadow them so you get more volume. Also what simulator are u speaking of? And what procedures exactly did they feel you werent qualified to do?

They definitely failed in their training of procedures.
im really not surprised you didnt get better quickly with only half a day/week of procedures. Sounds like they failed in their training of you. It wont get you anywhere telling them that.....maybe someone local will let you shadow them so you get more volume. Also what simulator are u speaking of? And what procedures exactly did they feel you werent qualified to do?

-They definitely failed in their training of procedures. Thanks for reading.
-The company called "Sawbones" offers some great models to practice motor skills of injections. The Trunk model in particular.
-They didn't think I could perform any of the interventional procedures, despite my successful completion on my own of at least 5 lumbar facet procedures, 10 sacroiliac injections, and 8-10 lumbar inter laminar ESIs, as well as inconsistent success with about 5 lumbar RFAs.
 
Yes, I am also interested to know what this stimulator is that you used... I also agree that working something out with your fellowship director will likely be the only helpful course of action. Perhaps they would let you do an extra 6 months or hook you up with an alumni of the fellowship to shadow for that period of time..

-Thanks for reading.
-Sawbones is the company. Look them up. They have some great models for practicing injections. I purchased a Trunk Model as well as a Spine model to place inside of it. This can be used to inject under live floro. You can practice the whole procedure. May not have facet OA you'll come across in the real world, but at least you can practice motor skills and needle finagling.
 
Speaking as a former PD I would comment that unless you were dangerous your PD had no business stopping you from doing procedures at the 6 month mark. You were there to learn as much as you could with what they could provide you. You don’t need to be an ace coming out of fellowship. Some have more procedural exposure than others. There are plenty of learning opportunities after fellowship and let’s face it you learn a lot on the job. You can do that safely as long as you are careful and humble and open to learning from others.
I would agree with addressing this with the PD and working out a mutually agreeable solution. I would hint at the fact that what she put in writing is hindering you from gainful employment .


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NJ PAIN

-Thank you for reading and for your response.
-There were a few times where my positioning was off and the attendings kind of panicked. However, I recognized this and would try to fix it. This would end up taking some time and the attending would typically just take over from there. I know that if I was more proficient with the needle, I could have fixed it quicker. Sometimes, I honestly could not identify the exact target. However, the different attendings in my fellowship did not always spend much time adjusting the floroscope to try to get the best view. It would simply take too long. I was told by one of my attendings that about half of the time, he injects "periarticular" and that if anyone else claims to always be in the facet joint for instance, they are lying.
-after I found Dr. Bogduk's floroscopic anatomy training lectures, I started to become more confident in my Floroanatomy. Unfortunately, this was around the time that they took me off of the procedures. I was starting to make progress and independently completed about 30 procedures myself, some with minimal assistance. So overall, I would not say I was "dangerous."
-My program director is not very open-minded and believes that some people are just meant to do these procedures and others are not. He does not perform the procedures himself however. I don't think he realizes that by cutting off my interventional training, he destroyed my chances of getting many jobs in spine.
 
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any chance the Sergeant wants to save someone else from that fellowship by naming said fellowship?
These suggestions are all good alternatives. To Seargent415er, regardless of your experience with that fellowship program, I would continue to focus on getting better with your interventional skills. You have more than enough training on non-interventional spine care, so you do not need any more of that. In my opinion, the primary goal of any interventional spine fellowship is to develop good hand-eye coordination and needle control. Once you do enough cases, one day it clicks, and you will be able to get the needle to where you want to go on the image with minimal passes. Everything else, including anatomy, you can learn later on as you go. So how can you get more hands-on experience? You can continue to practice with that simulator you purchased or you can sign up for some of those SIS courses, as they have basic and advanced. I do not think you need to repeat your fellowship unless you feel you really need the additional hands-on experience at a significantly discounted rate.

I agree with what everyone else has said about getting an interventional spine job. If you cannot get the program director of your fellowship to change that comment about marginal skills with spinal procedures, then either leave the fellowship off your resume or do not bother mentioning it as a spine fellowship. There are practices out there that hire physiatrists for spine injections without any interventional spine fellowships, but they are usually smaller private practices that are not primarily based at hospitals where they require hospital credentialing and privileges for those procedures, as long as you can confidently perform lumbar facet and transforaminal and interlaminar epidural injections. I would stay away from any cervical injections until you feel more confident in your procedural skills, as there is less room for error in the cervical than in the thoracic or lumbar spine. Those practices may even pay you to take SIS courses, so you can eventually do more advanced procedures under their expense. I know of a practice where they hired someone straight from physiatry residency with some interventional experience who's following that path.

To any future trainees, prestigious institutions do not equal good interventional training. Performing interventional procedures well is similar to performing any technical skills well, whether that be performing surgery, playing golf, or playing the piano, in that VOLUME and REPETITION matter. If you ever work with good surgical residents, you will notice that they want to be in the operating room whenever they can because they know their surgical skills are dependent on how many hours they spend operating and not on how many hours they spend managing patients on the floor.
 
Reading in between the lines, someone thought he was dangerous.

And with a spine fellowship that described itself as minimally interventional, I'm not sure why anyone would think they would be able to do procedures competently at the end. Basically you completed 1/2 of a procedures exposure that gave you maybe 1/5 of the exposure of an interventional fellowship and you're wondering why someone won't take a change on someone with 1/10 the skills......... being a pain doctor isn't a reward for how nice you are or how genuinely you want to practice. Patients pay good money expecting the correct treatment. Every time a patient goes to see a pain doctor and they get a botched procedure that doesn't work, they tell other people not to get injections because they don't work and it causes more pain and nerve problems. Drives me nuts.

I assume you are an interventionist. Perhaps you had good training in both residency and fellowship. You probably have great needle skills, Maybe you are a natural and picked it up quickly.

I'm sure you can agree that the more repetition of doing a procedure, the more skilled you get. I agree with you that this fellowship was pretty much substandard when it comes to intervention. There are certainly a lot of fractions when it comes to volume! Makes me wonder why it even existed. They probably just wanted a scut-monkey for the clinic to augment revenue; this would be my conclusion.

And what drives me nuts are people that don't think that other colleagues can learn to perform a skill because of their particular training or perhaps even their innate skill set. It is my belief that (with no disrespect to any of my interventionist colleagues,) with enough training and practice and repetition one could teach a giraffe how to perform these procedures. However, they could not teach him/her how to become a great physician in pain or spine.
 
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Interventional spine fellowship nightmare

I thought I share this horrible experience with all of you. Maybe it will teach all of you something about doing a fellowship and getting a job. Conversely, maybe someone has a suggestion for me.

I recently finished what ended up being a clinical fellowship in physiatry spine at a prestigious hospital. I am in a rather atypical situation. The fellowship that I was in originally also offered some minimal training in interventional spine procedures, which consisted of one day a week of observation of procedures and another half day a week of performing them under supervision.

The atypical situation is as follows: I was not progressing very fast in performing the procedures, I attribute this to not having this experience during my residency training to any lengthy degree. During this fellowship, the interventional training I received was also not extensive. It was as if they expected me to already be able to perform these procedures at the start of the fellowship. I also had some issues reading x-rays at the beginning of the fellowship and finding the correct targets in arthritic joints. However, I started to progress and feel more confident approximately halfway through the fellowship. Rest assured, I vigorously studied anatomy and procedure books on a full-time basis during that time, as I realized my deficiencies. Despite the progress I was making, they decided to take me off of procedures at the six month mark.

From the very beginning of the fellowship, it was emphasized that interventional procedures were not the main focus, and this was quite obvious by the low volume that I would see during a week. The main preceptor that I had stated that she feels like could become better if I had a higher volume. She tried to get me more time doing procedures with other clinicians but was unsuccessful in getting me a significantly higher volume.

I continued to pursue how to improve performing the procedures. I found some great resources on the Spine Interventional Society website in regards to reading fluoroscopic anatomy. In addition to this, I eventually stumbled upon a simulator that could be used under live floro. The main issues that I was having were needlecraft/precision getting to at target consistently as well as manipulating the florscope to get a perfect picture of the target. Let's be honest, this is a skill that can be improved with practice. The more I used this simulator during a two day workshop, the more comfortable I started to feel. After the conference, I purchased one and just received it.

A new problem that arised was that I was able to get a physiatry job that had involved performing some interventional spine procedures. Since this hospital staff never told me of any specific requirements or any formal piece of paper proving that I was proficient performing the procedures wasn't needed. I felt that this job was a good fit for me. I was always honest with them and told them that my current skill level is not that of a full-time interventionist but would most likely improve overtime with practice and continued education in both conferences and with my new simulator. Verbally, they were in agreement with this. I signed a contract with them back on April 30, 2018 and was slated to start working for them on August 6, 2018. However, they received an accucheck form from my fellowship program that had a checkbox checked off as me not having received full credit for the fellowship due to "only marginal skills at performing spinal injections.” I was told that my clinical skills surpassed that of previous fellows, but my inability to do procedures at the six month mark really caused a big problem to get any gainful employment. Thus, the hospital that hired me told me to withdraw my application for employment, as I most definitely would be denied privileges.

The truth is, I did not get a fair chance to become proficient in performing these procedures. I am trying very hard not to do another fellowship year, as I do not believe I need it. I am not trying to be a needle jockey; Rather, I am only asking for a chance to be able to perform the procedures that I am comfortable in in a hospital or practice setting. Throughout time, I will become better and more proficient. I really do not know how to proceed from here. I'm about to take a full time position in urgent care despite having a physiatry residency training and a fellowship in spine at a prestigious academic institution. I refuse to do inpatient rehab, as I do not enjoy it and do not feel I can utilize my skills in that environment.

Does anyone have any idea how I should proceed in at least having the ability to prove myself again in interventional procedures without taking a 300% pay cut (doing another fellowship) and probably having to move to some other city with my wife and my two young children? For instance, does anybody know of any proctoring programs that can assist people trying to add procedures after the training? I spoke to a surgeon who states that he learned how to do a colonoscopy after his residency training and had to get specific proctoring and ordered you get privileges to perform the colonoscopies at a hospital. I wasn't sure if anyone else was aware of this.
.

Interventional spine fellowship nightmare

I thought I share this horrible experience with all of you. Maybe it will teach all of you something about doing a fellowship and getting a job. Conversely, maybe someone has a suggestion for me.

I recently finished what ended up being a clinical fellowship in physiatry spine at a prestigious hospital. I am in a rather atypical situation. The fellowship that I was in originally also offered some minimal training in interventional spine procedures, which consisted of one day a week of observation of procedures and another half day a week of performing them under supervision.

The atypical situation is as follows: I was not progressing very fast in performing the procedures, I attribute this to not having this experience during my residency training to any lengthy degree. During this fellowship, the interventional training I received was also not extensive. It was as if they expected me to already be able to perform these procedures at the start of the fellowship. I also had some issues reading x-rays at the beginning of the fellowship and finding the correct targets in arthritic joints. However, I started to progress and feel more confident approximately halfway through the fellowship. Rest assured, I vigorously studied anatomy and procedure books on a full-time basis during that time, as I realized my deficiencies. Despite the progress I was making, they decided to take me off of procedures at the six month mark.

From the very beginning of the fellowship, it was emphasized that interventional procedures were not the main focus, and this was quite obvious by the low volume that I would see during a week. The main preceptor that I had stated that she feels like could become better if I had a higher volume. She tried to get me more time doing procedures with other clinicians but was unsuccessful in getting me a significantly higher volume.

I continued to pursue how to improve performing the procedures. I found some great resources on the Spine Interventional Society website in regards to reading fluoroscopic anatomy. In addition to this, I eventually stumbled upon a simulator that could be used under live floro. The main issues that I was having were needlecraft/precision getting to at target consistently as well as manipulating the florscope to get a perfect picture of the target. Let's be honest, this is a skill that can be improved with practice. The more I used this simulator during a two day workshop, the more comfortable I started to feel. After the conference, I purchased one and just received it.

A new problem that arised was that I was able to get a physiatry job that had involved performing some interventional spine procedures. Since this hospital staff never told me of any specific requirements or any formal piece of paper proving that I was proficient performing the procedures wasn't needed. I felt that this job was a good fit for me. I was always honest with them and told them that my current skill level is not that of a full-time interventionist but would most likely improve overtime with practice and continued education in both conferences and with my new simulator. Verbally, they were in agreement with this. I signed a contract with them back on April 30, 2018 and was slated to start working for them on August 6, 2018. However, they received an accucheck form from my fellowship program that had a checkbox checked off as me not having received full credit for the fellowship due to "only marginal skills at performing spinal injections.” I was told that my clinical skills surpassed that of previous fellows, but my inability to do procedures at the six month mark really caused a big problem to get any gainful employment. Thus, the hospital that hired me told me to withdraw my application for employment, as I most definitely would be denied privileges.

The truth is, I did not get a fair chance to become proficient in performing these procedures. I am trying very hard not to do another fellowship year, as I do not believe I need it. I am not trying to be a needle jockey; Rather, I am only asking for a chance to be able to perform the procedures that I am comfortable in in a hospital or practice setting. Throughout time, I will become better and more proficient. I really do not know how to proceed from here. I'm about to take a full time position in urgent care despite having a physiatry residency training and a fellowship in spine at a prestigious academic institution. I refuse to do inpatient rehab, as I do not enjoy it and do not feel I can utilize my skills in that environment.

Does anyone have any idea how I should proceed in at least having the ability to prove myself again in interventional procedures without taking a 300% pay cut (doing another fellowship) and probably having to move to some other city with my wife and my two young children? For instance, does anybody know of any proctoring programs that can assist people trying to add procedures after the training? I spoke to a surgeon who states that he learned how to do a colonoscopy after his residency training and had to get specific proctoring and ordered you get privileges to perform the colonoscopies at a hospital. I wasn't sure if anyone else was aware of this.
.



"A Good Teacher Is Like a Candle that Consumes Itself While Lighting the Way for Others" . You need a better fellowship with better trainers my friend!
 
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any chance the Sergeant wants to save someone else from that fellowship by naming said fellowship?

Well, I might not be a great interventionalist, but I'm a good guy. I wouldn't want to slander their names just yet. However I will hint at you that is not an ACGME accredited pain fellowship.
 
Variations in fellowships will definitely exist. I think the background training makes a difference in the slope of acquisition of interventional skills. My fellowship although a big name program was weak however my anesthesia residency was strong. I did at least 500 labor epidurals for example. In my opinion what is needed to be successful as an interventional pain physician is good judgement and risk assessment. Patient volume matters
 
Variations in fellowships will definitely exist. I think the background training makes a difference in the slope of acquisition of interventional skills. My fellowship although a big name program was weak however my anesthesia residency was strong. I did at least 500 labor epidurals for example. In my opinion what is needed to be successful as an interventional pain physician is good judgement and risk assessment. Patient volume matters


Labor epidural useless as EMG as far as interventional spine goes.
 
I did a LOT of interventional spine as a resident, so when I went to fellowship I was mainly learning peripheral nerve and stim stuff at that point. I felt entirely comfortable starting as an attending.

However, no matter who you are and how good you are with a needle the real world will test your skills. I get pts all the time with difficult anatomy that makes the most basic procedure difficult. I will say my first 3 months as a pain attending I learned more than residency and fellowship combined.

By the way Seargent guy - If you have a history of difficulty during fellowship and you choose to start doing interventions and you hurt somebody you're gonna be screwed. Either do an ACGME fellowship or move on with your life. You have a family...
 
Labor epidural useless as EMG as far as interventional spine goes.

I don't know man, there's something to be learned from the feel of a blind epidural and just dealing with a pt who's got a needle in their back.
 
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I did a LOT of interventional spine as a resident, so when I went to fellowship I was mainly learning peripheral nerve and stim stuff at that point. I felt entirely comfortable starting as an attending.

However, no matter who you are and how good you are with a needle the real world will test your skills. I get pts all the time with difficult anatomy that makes the most basic procedure difficult. I will say my first 3 months as a pain attending I learned more than residency and fellowship combined.

By the way Seargent guy - If you have a history of difficulty during fellowship and you choose to start doing interventions and you hurt somebody you're gonna be screwed. Either do an ACGME fellowship or move on with your life. You have a family...

May I ask where you went for residency that allowed you to get that much exposure to interventional spine procedures as a resident?
 
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