question regarding naloxone/naltrexone

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chngsr

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Hey guys-
Regarding naloxone/naltrexone. I am not sure if my understanding is correct...is it correct that naloxone or naltrexone is used for opiod overdose but methadone for withdrawal? So basically, do you only use methadone for opiod toxicitiy if the pt is experieincing withdrawals and in all other cases use naloxone? I just can't quite understand when to use one or the other.


Also for alcohol overdose, do you only use benzo's for DT's and then naloxone for overdose without withdrawal symptoms? I hope this questions makes sense...

Thanks so much!

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Hey guys-
Regarding naloxone/naltrexone. I am not sure if my understanding is correct...is it correct that naloxone or naltrexone is used for opiod overdose but methadone for withdrawal? So basically, do you only use methadone for opiod toxicitiy if the pt is experieincing withdrawals and in all other cases use naloxone? I just can't quite understand when to use one or the other.

According to my syllabus:

1)Naloxone (Narcan): a "pure opioid antagonist", only IV/SC. Used to antagonize side effects of opioids (OD I guess too).

Gotta be careful with this one--> dilute & titrate very slowly, otherwise you may kill the Pt (because it can precipitate pulmonary edema, hypertension, ischemia, acute w/d; it also says that stroke and infarct can occur).

2) Naltrexone: another pure opioid antagonist, but this one can be given PO. It can be used to Tx opioid dependency, ultra-rapid & opioid detox, AND can be used to Tx alcoholism (no mention of OD or w/d, so what I got from this was that Naltrexone may be used for alcohol addiction/dependency-then you also have disulfiram, etc). SE: liver toxicity

As a side note for opioid resp depression it says that the most specific Tx is to assist ventilation (aka ventilate Pt first)

3) Methadone: for Tx of opioid dependency (substitution and maintenance). Can also be used for mod to severe pain.

As far as w/d goes, supportive care, maybe clonidine for the high BP (also used for heroin w/d hypertension), and referral to detox

Also for alcohol overdose, do you only use benzo's for DT's and then naloxone for overdose without withdrawal symptoms? I hope this questions makes sense...

From what I remember (so take it with a grain of salt), BZD's for DT (and thyamine). But naloxone wouldn't be used for Etoh OD as far as I know because it's an opioid antagonist (so I guess it wouldn't have anything to do with an alcohol OD?)

Hope that made sense and answered yor question :) :luck:
 
Hey guys-
Regarding naloxone/naltrexone. I am not sure if my understanding is correct...is it correct that naloxone or naltrexone is used for opiod overdose but methadone for withdrawal? So basically, do you only use methadone for opiod toxicitiy if the pt is experieincing withdrawals and in all other cases use naloxone? I just can't quite understand when to use one or the other.


Also for alcohol overdose, do you only use benzo's for DT's and then naloxone for overdose without withdrawal symptoms? I hope this questions makes sense...

Thanks so much!

methadone is an opiate so it takes the withdrawal symptoms away. It would make an OD worse if you gave it during an opiate overdose.

Naloxone/naltrexone blocks the same receptor that opiates act at (mu) so it is used for ODs.

You dont use benzos for EtOH OD. There is cross reactivity between EtOH, benzos and barbiturates so it would make the OD worse. Benzos are good to prevent the s/s of EtOH withdrawal (ie DTs).
 
You dont use benzos for EtOH OD. There is cross reactivity between EtOH, benzos and barbiturates so it would make the OD worse. Benzos are good to prevent the s/s of EtOH withdrawal (ie DTs).

Good to know! Thanks for the clarification!!
 
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Regarding naloxone/naltrexone. I am not sure if my understanding is correct...is it correct that naloxone or naltrexone is used for opiod overdose but methadone for withdrawal? So basically, do you only use methadone for opiod toxicitiy if the pt is experieincing withdrawals and in all other cases use naloxone? I just can't quite understand when to use one or the other.

Also for alcohol overdose, do you only use benzo's for DT's and then naloxone for overdose without withdrawal symptoms? I hope this questions makes sense...

Just remember two simple rules first:
1. In acute overdose/toxicity, you want to antagonize/block the poison that is in the system.
2. To prevent or treat withdrawal, you want to provide something that acts very much like the poison the system is used to (tincture of opium anyone?).

Next, remember the rule that rapid onset and short half life drugs have rapid onset of severe withdrawal symptoms. Long half life drugs have less severe withdrawal profiles. So if you have to give something to treat withdrawal, try to substitute their "quick" high for one that is less intense and longer lasting, so that when they do stop that "maintenance" drug it is less severe.

Now take the opioid case first, and apply those rules:
1. In acute OD, provide an opioid antagonist. Naloxone and Naltrexone fit that bill. They block opioid receptors.
2. To treat/prevent/slow withdrawals, provide something similar to what they are used to. Methadone is a long acting opioid, so it works well. Less intense high, longer lasting, less severe withdrawal, so it is easy to make the transition to being on nothing.

Now take the alcohol case:
1. In acute alcohol overdose, you would like to provide an alcohol antagonist, but there really isn't one. The closest thing is fomepizole, which blocks the conversion of alcohol to the metabolite that does long term damage - acetaldehyde. But in the short term it is the EtOH that is doing the damage, and you don't want to block its metabolism. There isn't anything I know of that antagonizes EtOH's effects to any great degree. I've never heard about naltrexone having that effect. So you provide supportive care... glucose and thiamine, respiratory support if needed.
2. In alcohol withdrawal, provide something similar to what they are used to. EtOH and benzodiazapines are both sedative/hypnotics, cross-react with one another, and are perceived by the body in much the same way. Diazepam and chlordiazepoxide are both long acting benzo's that can be substituted for alcohol. It is then easier to taper the benzo to abstinence than it would be for alcohol.

Alcohol is also interesting in that you can also give disulfiram, which blocks the further conversion of acetaldehyde to acetic acid. Acetaldehyde irritates the body and causes bad hangovers, so by putting someone on a prescription of disulfiram you just ensure that if they do drink they seriously regret it the next day.

Note that in ethylene glycol and methanol ingestion, it is the metabolites that do the most damage, not the ethylene glycol or methanol. So you give fomepizole, which blocks their metabolism until they can be cleared safely from the system. If you don't have any handy (and maybe if you do?) you can also give them ethanol, which plays the role of competitive antagonist at the enzyme doing the metabolism (the one fomepizole blocks - alcohol dehydrogenase).
 
Hey guys-
Regarding naloxone/naltrexone. I am not sure if my understanding is correct...is it correct that naloxone or naltrexone is used for opiod overdose but methadone for withdrawal? So basically, do you only use methadone for opiod toxicitiy if the pt is experieincing withdrawals and in all other cases use naloxone? I just can't quite understand when to use one or the other.


Also for alcohol overdose, do you only use benzo's for DT's and then naloxone for overdose without withdrawal symptoms? I hope this questions makes sense...

Thanks so much!

More fun with drugs:

- Naloxone (naltrexone? whatever the PO one is) has been shown to help people who are recovering alcoholics. It's kind of a new and cool treatment option. The points I've seen asked about that are:
  1. This indicates that the endogenous rewards pathway is a potentiating part of alcohol abuse
  2. This does not equate with the disulfiram reaction, it just makes alcohol less pleasurable and decreases compulsion to drink; don't pick "enzymatic inhibition when asked why an alcoholic isn't drinking after being prescribed a LT opiate antagonist
  3. Its effect would be most seen "after the first drink" as your NAS isn't effective and therefore you don't "crave" that second drink, but you still feel the effects of alcohol, which is basically then just a poison and depressant


- In opiate vs alcohol withdrawl, the former is a huge motivation for patients to stay hooked on the drug, while the latter is far more dangerous:
  1. When asked why a patient who uses sub-euphoric (but still high) amounts of an opiate, which presumably involves a lot of money, committing a crime etc. it's because they just want to avoid withdrawl; I'd imagine that people might even resort to using that one anti-diarrheal with atropine (lomotil?) despite the unpleasant atropine SE's just to avoid it, but I dunno
  2. When asked why a malingering patient is agitated and demanding clonidine, it's because they're starting to acutely withdraw and clonidine is known on the streets as something that helps with the symptoms and that an EM doc will be likely to rx more easily than opiates for someone who is clearly "not well"
  3. While patients will try very hard to avoid opiate withdrawl, its far less dangerous than alcohol withdrawl

EDIT: one final fun one which sounds like a total joke: they actually have, or at least had, a toxoid conjugated vaccine for cocaine in FDA trials. I guess the premise was that you would have anti-coke Abs and so snorting wouldn't work unless you buried your face in a punchbowl of the stuff. Definitely brings up some interesting and hilarious ethical issues.
 
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If you don't have any handy (and maybe if you do?) you can also give them ethanol, which plays the role of competitive antagonist at the enzyme doing the metabolism (the one fomepizole blocks - alcohol dehydrogenase).

Although fomepizole is a great drug better than ethanol blahblahblah, I can't help but be sad that I'll probably never get to treat a patient that way. One of the old docs here told a story about a kid who drank antifreeze and they got to keep him hammered for a couple of days.

How awesome would it be to Rx a fifth of booze? How hilarious would it be for a parent to say "Now Johnny, be a good boy and drink that shot of Jack like the doctor says?"
 
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