Commer_Knocker

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Hey guys.

So I've been doing bench research(not really clinically applicable) at my medical school all summer. I MIGHT get a publication, or I might not.


So my questions are:

1) Assuming I don't get a publication, does being a part of this "Summer Fellowship Program" have any weight written on a residency app, or is it just wasting space?

2) I get to do a poster presentation at the end, which I've been told constitutes a "publication." According to the fine print, that may be true, but will putting posters as "publications" be regarded as filler on a residency app?

Thanks in advance for any insights and answers!
 

eteshoe

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You gotta play the game. Since a presentation counts, do well on it and move on. Bench research tends to be harder to get publications in, especially with the summer time constraint and its inherent slow progression nature.

Not sure how much weight will be assigned for the fellowship thing - I'll assume others further will answer that.
 

SurfingDoctor

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Hey guys.

So I've been doing bench research(not really clinically applicable) at my medical school all summer. I MIGHT get a publication, or I might not.


So my questions are:

1) Assuming I don't get a publication, does being a part of this "Summer Fellowship Program" have any weight written on a residency app, or is it just wasting space?

2) I get to do a poster presentation at the end, which I've been told constitutes a "publication." According to the fine print, that may be true, but will putting posters as "publications" be regarded as filler on a residency app?

Thanks in advance for any insights and answers!
1) Well, I suppose it depends, but I would definitely count it. I did a similar program in medical school many moons ago and definitely counted it (in fact I think I still list it because it was an award). One, it shows you applied for a research fellowship, were awarded it and did work on it. Not all of your classmates did something like that. Two, it gives you talking points for the interview. I don't think anything related to medicine that goes beyond the required coursework is "wasted space".

2) No, it should not count a poster as a "Publication". However, it can count it as an "Abstract" meaning it was presented as a poster. The format typically looks like a journal citation on a CV/application, but instead of the journal, you put the meeting. Additionally, many large national meeting will have a journal that sponsors the conference and after the conference, that journal will typically publish the abstracts in their journal. This should still be listed as an "Abstract" but it carries more weight.
 
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AlteredScale

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1) Well, I suppose it depends, but I would definitely count it. I did a similar program in medical school many moons ago and definitely counted it (in fact I think I still list it because it was an award). One, it shows you applied for a research fellowship, were awarded it and did work on it. Not all of your classmates did something like that. Two, it gives you talking points for the interview. I don't think anything related to medicine that goes beyond the required coursework is "wasted space".

2) No, it should not count a poster as a "Publication". However, it can count it as an "Abstract" meaning it was presented as a poster. The format typically looks like a journal citation on a CV/application, but instead of the journal, you put the meeting. Additionally, many large national meeting will have a journal that sponsors the conference and after the conference, that journal will typically publish the abstracts in their journal. This should still be listed as an "Abstract" but it carries more weight.
Wanted to ask a question related to this: I worked on a project with a resident over the summer. The preliminary data was presented at a joint conference with a medical school and a their teaching hospital. The finalized data was going to be submitted in October to the digestive diseases conference and an additional paper on another aspect of the data was going to be submitted to a journal in December. Does this all count as technically one project come ERAS time? Thanks ahead!


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Law2Doc

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Hey guys.

So I've been doing bench research(not really clinically applicable) at my medical school all summer. I MIGHT get a publication, or I might not.


So my questions are:

1) Assuming I don't get a publication, does being a part of this "Summer Fellowship Program" have any weight written on a residency app, or is it just wasting space?

2) I get to do a poster presentation at the end, which I've been told constitutes a "publication." According to the fine print, that may be true, but will putting posters as "publications" be regarded as filler on a residency app?

Thanks in advance for any insights and answers!
I did a summer program like this that didn't result in a publication. Basically IIRC, I just stuck it under research positions on my CV, listed the topic i worked on, and did not bother to list the poster separately.

If you are going to list the poster separately, you list it under "posters/presentations", NOT as a publication. It's not a publication, no matter what the program tells you - there's a separate subheading for presentations and posters, or at least there used to be.

I disagree that this counts as an "abstract". That's a very different term. There's a separate section for presentations and the abstract is basically a very different type of work, which you send in to a meeting or publisher in hopes of getting a presentation or paper. I personally don't think abstracts should even be listed because frankly with electronic submissions I could shoot off a dozen abstracts in an afternoon, all of which would be rejected but that shouldn't let me make my CV look research heavy. They are really just vehicles you use while seeking posters, presentations or papers and don't mean much. Until someone accepts the abstract for presentation or publication, it's just your own musings and really doesn't belong in an application in my opinion. And people like me would put no weight in one anyhow - papers, presentations and posters (ideally posters at national meetings) are the brass rings here.
 
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Merely

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Question: Let's say you work on a clinical project, you are 3rd author and its gets submitted to a meeting, accepted as a podium presentation, is that then listed under the oral presentation section of your CV?
 

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Are answers here going to change anything? I mean, you're already committed to this summer project and are following it through. The only real answer is every program is different, so there is no single truth here.

Imho the whole shenanigans about how many papers or posters you get should be the least of your concern. Just learn from your experiences and enjoy what you're doing.
 

URHere

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List the fellowship as a research experience and list the poster as a presentation.

It's not much in terms of research experience, but unless you're applying for a competitive specialty or a clinician scientist residency track, it's probably enough. If you do want or need more in terms of research:

1) Make a new poster for the same project, ask your PI's permission, and then present at a larger national conference
2) Continue working with this lab in some capacity. Keep presenting/publishing your work as it develops.
3) Find someone working in related clinical research and offer to help with their projects. Projects that involve chart review are completed much faster than basic science research, and you should be able to publish something before residency time.
 

URHere

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Question: Let's say you work on a clinical project, you are 3rd author and its gets submitted to a meeting, accepted as a podium presentation, is that then listed under the oral presentation section of your CV?
As far as I'm concerned the rule is this:

If your name appears on an actual journal article, you list it as a publication, even if you're the 43rd author.

If your name appears on a poster or presentation abstract, you ONLY list it if you were actually involved with the presentation. Usually this is limited to the first, or sometimes second, authors.
 
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Law2Doc

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As far as I'm concerned the rule is this:

If your name appears on an actual journal article, you list it as a publication, even if you're the 43rd author.

If your name appears on a poster or presentation abstract, you ONLY list it if you were actually involved with the presentation. Usually this is limited to the first, or sometimes second, authors.
If there's a presentation at a national meeting and multiple authors worked on the study and on what would ultimately be presented, all get to put it on their CV even though they weren't the one who ultimately did the talking. Only one person gets to talk in those 10 minute slots, but it's not uncommon that a team of 3-4 did the work. That's pretty standard actually -- not sure why you are making a distinction between papers and presentation/posters.
 
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URHere

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If there's a presentation at a national meeting and multiple authors worked on the study and on what would ultimately be presented, all get to put it on their CV even though they weren't the one who ultimately did the talking. Only one person gets to talk in those 10 minute slots, but it's not uncommon that a team of 3-4 did the work. That's pretty standard actually -- not sure why you are making a distinction between papers and presentation/posters.
I agree that this tactic is more common with clinical research, where it can take the efforts of many people or centers to gather data for one talk. It really isn't common for basic science research though. In the basic science world, one talk is usually one person's project, unless the PI is giving a talk covering multiple topics all researched by his/her lab.

If I saw a CV where someone listed a basic science presentation that they did not personally give, I would judge them pretty harshly for it. If they could explain that the work was in fact largely theirs and had a good reason for not presenting (for example, their PI being the invited speaker), that may be different, but my advice is still for pre-meds and medical students to think very hard before listing a presentation that they did not give on their CV.
 

VisionaryTics

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Imho the whole shenanigans about how many papers or posters you get should be the least of your concern. Just learn from your experiences and enjoy what you're doing.
Horrible advice. No one is reviewing applications to residency or sitting in a post-interview ranking meeting, and saying, "Hey, this kid wasn't productive at all and has zero publications, but he really enjoyed research, so that counts for something, right?"

Departments want to recruit people who will improve the department. Writing papers shows people that you can execute a project, write it, and get it published. And that is a very valuable skill to people whose salaries and professional advancement depend on publications.
 

Goro

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Posters are different from publications and presentations.

Hey guys.

So I've been doing bench research(not really clinically applicable) at my medical school all summer. I MIGHT get a publication, or I might not.


So my questions are:

1) Assuming I don't get a publication, does being a part of this "Summer Fellowship Program" have any weight written on a residency app, or is it just wasting space?

2) I get to do a poster presentation at the end, which I've been told constitutes a "publication." According to the fine print, that may be true, but will putting posters as "publications" be regarded as filler on a residency app?

Thanks in advance for any insights and answers!
 

Law2Doc

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Posters are different from publications and presentations.
They are different, but still CV -worthy, particularly at national meetings where your abstract has to be accepted before you get to do a poster.
 

Goro

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Agree 100% with my learned colleague!

They are different, but still CV -worthy, particularly at national meetings where your abstract has to be accepted before you get to do a poster.
 

SurfingDoctor

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I disagree that this counts as an "abstract". That's a very different term. There's a separate section for presentations and the abstract is basically a very different type of work, which you send in to a meeting or publisher in hopes of getting a presentation or paper. I personally don't think abstracts should even be listed because frankly with electronic submissions I could shoot off a dozen abstracts in an afternoon, all of which would be rejected but that shouldn't let me make my CV look research heavy. They are really just vehicles you use while seeking posters, presentations or papers and don't mean much. Until someone accepts the abstract for presentation or publication, it's just your own musings and really doesn't belong in an application in my opinion. And people like me would put no weight in one anyhow - papers, presentations and posters (ideally posters at national meetings) are the brass rings here.
Well, it is a matter of terminology to some degree I suppose. I've always considered poster presentation as "abstracts" and oral presentations as "presentations". Some people will further classify them into local, national and international. I would say that anytime you present anything, no matter how small, it should be listed in an application, CV, etc, especially for a student.
 

SurfingDoctor

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Wanted to ask a question related to this: I worked on a project with a resident over the summer. The preliminary data was presented at a joint conference with a medical school and a their teaching hospital. The finalized data was going to be submitted in October to the digestive diseases conference and an additional paper on another aspect of the data was going to be submitted to a journal in December. Does this all count as technically one project come ERAS time? Thanks ahead!
If a poster or oral presentation is done and later a paper is published, they are listed separately. Typically, someone will list 1 to 2 presentations prior to a submission and acceptance of a publication.
 

Law2Doc

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...I've always considered poster presentation as "abstracts" and oral presentations as "presentations". ..
Your definition of abstract is not commonly used in medicine ( or maybe anywhere). One submits an abstract for consideration for either of a poster or presentation. And it's also the term used for the summary page of a manuscript, as listed on pubmed. It absolutely does not mean "a poster" and you generally need to submit an abstract to be accepted for an oral presentation too. If some other field of science uses the term abstract differently you need to wipe it from your mind for all medicine contexts.
 
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AlteredScale

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If a poster or oral presentation is done and later a paper is published, they are listed separately. Typically, someone will list 1 to 2 presentations prior to a submission and acceptance of a publication.
I see. I myself did not present this poster at the hospital/med school conference but was fourth author. So it would it be in my best interest down the road to only list the accepted abstract/poster that was accepted to digestive diseases week and the related publication as separate projects.

Thank you for the advice!


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failedatlife

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I would close up shop on the research ASAP and focus my attention on Step 1. Apparently, that one day 280 multiple choice test on non-clinical medicine carries significantly more weight that years of continued interest and publications in the field. :caution:

Don't make the mistake I did. Focus 100% of your time on Step 1, because at this point it is looking like all my research and publications in the field matter 0 because I am on the wrong side of the bell curve for step 1....Especially if you had your heart set on a name brand program for residency as I did.
 

SurfingDoctor

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Your definition of abstract is not commonly used in medicine ( or maybe anywhere). One submits an abstract for consideration for either of a poster or presentation. And it's also the term used for the summary page of a manuscript, as listed on pubmed. It absolutely does not mean "a poster" and you generally need to submit an abstract to be accepted for an oral presentation too. If some other field of science uses the term abstract differently you need to wipe it from your mind for all medicine contexts.
Well, the Association of American Medical Colleges doesn't seem to necessarily agree with this as they list abstracts as posters and publications (which I don't agree with the latter, even if a journal publishes the abstract), but in the end, you write your CV how your university wants to get promoted.

http://www.uams.edu/facultyaffairs/word docs/AAMC CV Guidelines.pdf
 
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Commer_Knocker

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I would close up shop on the research ASAP and focus my attention on Step 1. Apparently, that one day 280 multiple choice test on non-clinical medicine carries significantly more weight that years of continued interest and publications in the field. :caution:

Don't make the mistake I did. Focus 100% of your time on Step 1, because at this point it is looking like all my research and publications in the field matter 0 because I am on the wrong side of the bell curve for step 1....Especially if you had your heart set on a name brand program for residency as I did.
You know, that's been more and more my thinking lately. I'm starting M1 in two weeks, and I don't think I'll be spending any more time on bench research. I can always do some clinical stuff during M3, once Step is behind me.
 

Law2Doc

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Well, the Association of American Medical Colleges doesn't seem to necessarily agree with this as they list abstracts as posters and publications (which I don't agree with the latter, even if a journal publishes the abstract), but in the end, you write your CV how your university wants to get promoted.

http://www.uams.edu/facultyaffairs/word docs/AAMC CV Guidelines.pdf
Um no, disagree with your understanding of this website. Under their heading "Abstracts and Presentations" they have you the separate subheadings "oral presentations " and "posters" as each of these are PRESENTATIONS which stem from abstracts (presumably the abstracts part of it is for things submitted and accepted but not yet presented). If you read further down the page they also discuss when you might list a published abstract (i.e. A writing, not a poster) and a publication separately. I don't agree you ever get to list the abstract separately once it results in a paper, presentation or poster but that's not the AAMCs view apparently, but they aren't saying its a poster, rather it's the thing you submit to a national meeting that leads to a presentation/poster.

But they are clearly not on the same page as what YOU listed above -- they are using MY definition, that the abstract is a vehicle for presentations (oral publication and poster) might be published separately and no place does it suggest an abstract MEANS a poster. That's just wrong and you need to forget that faulty definition and not repeat it on SDN and confuse others. It's not true.
 
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I would close up shop on the research ASAP and focus my attention on Step 1. Apparently, that one day 280 multiple choice test on non-clinical medicine carries significantly more weight that years of continued interest and publications in the field. :caution:

Don't make the mistake I did. Focus 100% of your time on Step 1, because at this point it is looking like all my research and publications in the field matter 0 because I am on the wrong side of the bell curve for step 1....Especially if you had your heart set on a name brand program for residency as I did.
Well research is like the cherry on top. While it's nice to have at the end of the day these residency programs are primarily evaluating the cake. These top programs have plenty of people with impeccable stats and the research as a kicker so they don't really have to make any concessions.


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I would close up shop on the research ASAP and focus my attention on Step 1. Apparently, that one day 280 multiple choice test on non-clinical medicine carries significantly more weight that years of continued interest and publications in the field. :caution: Don't make the mistake I did. Focus 100% of your time on Step 1, because at this point it is looking like all my research and publications in the field matter 0 because I am on the wrong side of the bell curve for step 1....Especially if you had your heart set on a name brand program for residency as I did.
You know, that's been more and more my thinking lately. I'm starting M1 in two weeks, and I don't think I'll be spending any more time on bench research. I can always do some clinical stuff during M3, once Step is behind me.
Im the flip side of that. Focused all of my effort in MS1 and 2 on Step. Got a really high score but would be forced to be extraordinarily busy doing research and making connections all while trying to honor rotations if I wanted something competitive. I regret that now because I personally find it hard to balance my time in MS3.
 
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SurfingDoctor

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That's just wrong and you need to forget that faulty definition and not repeat it on SDN and confuse others. It's not true.
I'm not interested in arguing. My university uses the way I mentioned for CV documentation in their system for promotion. You are entitled to disagree with them, but I am not. I will refrain from giving my version so as not to confuse people. However, it seems evident that not every university uses the exact same method. Anyway, this is a digression from the OP's topic.
 

failedatlife

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Im the flip side of that. Focused all of my effort in MS1 and 2 on Step. Got a really high score but would be forced to be extraordinarily busy doing research and making connections all while trying to honor rotations if I wanted something competitive. I regret that now because I personally find it hard to balance my time in MS3.
Well, I'm still writing papers during my rotations now during 3rd year and it is hard to balance my time. I never learn my lesson. Doing it in vain at this point, but I'm interested in it and hope it helps the field. I feel like there is no flip side to this tho, few people have both many publications and high boards, you pick one or the other and obviously the latter is the key. I tried to pull off both but I screwed that one up...just too dumb for my ambition. For residency purposes, I feel like the more enviable situation is the high board scores. I'd much rather be in your shoes right now...
 
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What's a resonable turnaround time between when your PI gives you a paper to write, and you get back to him with a draft? One week, two weeks, one month, two months?

What if it's a review article?
 

VisionaryTics

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What's a resonable turnaround time between when your PI gives you a paper to write, and you get back to him with a draft? One week, two weeks, one month, two months?

What if it's a review article?
Depends on the type of article. If it's a simple review of a small-moderate body of literature, a couple of weeks is probably reasonable. If it's a meta-analysis or you have to do a **** load of data mining for your review, longer is fine.