Questions for other non-trads/advice please?

[xaxxax]

Hello all,

I have been lurking for a while now trying to find info and I figure the best way to get it is just ask.

About me: I suppose I qualify as a non-traditional student. I'm 28 now but have had a passion for the medical field since I was about 3.
After high school I went on to college with pre-med plans but life got in the way. I married and had a child young and was very unfocused during this time and not a fantastic student. Divorce soon followed and my grades got worse.
Fast forward through some dark times and I made my through nursing school. I did pretty well grade-wise and liked the material. I thought about med school again during this time but it just wasn't possible and I let the dream go.
I've been working now as an RN in an ICU for a few years. I absolutely love my job. I absolutely love nursing. But it's absolutely not enough. I still have this burning desire to do more for my patients. I crave the knowledge medical school could give me. It literally keeps me up at night. I work with some pretty fantastic intensivists who are always willing to teach me something new, but this just intensifies my need to know more and reinforces my desire to know what they know and do what they do.
I thought about NP, I thought about CRNA, but let's face it: nothing compares to a med school education. I gotta have it.
So what do I do to make this happen? I've been doing my research but I want to hear from actual non-trad pre-med students on how to do this right. I don't want to mess anything up.
One thing I do know is that I need core science classes. The only problem is that I work full-time 12 hour night shifts. This makes attending classes in person a major problem. Not working is not an option for me (mortgage, car payment, kid, etc...)
I found my way to the University of New England's online pre med courses and they look like everything I need. I checked the msar and it seems like quite a few schools accept online credits and quite a few don't.
I had originally planned on taking all my science prereqs online through UNE. Like 30+ credits. And hopefully rocking the socks off them and destroying the mcat. Is this wise to limit myself to all online science courses? Anything else I can or should do?
Also, what kind of ECs should I be doing? I did some researchy stuff in nursing school but I don't know if that would be valuable to include in a med school application as it was based on nursing theory. Obviously I have a ton of bedside hours at work and I'm planning on joining a medical mission trip this fall. What else should I add?
Any advice at all as I embark on this journey would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for rambling. I'm writing this at the end of one of those 12 hour shifts.

Thanks for reading.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Cotterpin]

No you should not be taking all of your science prereqs online. I can't be sure without checking each school's website individually, but I think a good amount of them won't accept online courses and there's usually some required lab component that you obviously won't be able to fulfill with an online course.

 

[JustAPhD]

*Paging resident non-trad expert @gonnif *

 

[Mr Giggles]

Hello all,

I have been lurking for a while now trying to find info and I figure the best way to get it is just ask.

About me: I suppose I qualify as a non-traditional student. I'm 28 now but have had a passion for the medical field since I was about 3.
After high school I went on to college with pre-med plans but life got in the way. I married and had a child young and was very unfocused during this time and not a fantastic student. Divorce soon followed and my grades got worse.
Fast forward through some dark times and I made my through nursing school. I did pretty well grade-wise and liked the material. I thought about med school again during this time but it just wasn't possible and I let the dream go.
I've been working now as an RN in an ICU for a few years. I absolutely love my job. I absolutely love nursing. But it's absolutely not enough. I still have this burning desire to do more for my patients. I crave the knowledge medical school could give me. It literally keeps me up at night. I work with some pretty fantastic intensivists who are always willing to teach me something new, but this just intensifies my need to know more and reinforces my desire to know what they know and do what they do.
I thought about NP, I thought about CRNA, but let's face it: nothing compares to a med school education. I gotta have it.
So what do I do to make this happen? I've been doing my research but I want to hear from actual non-trad pre-med students on how to do this right. I don't want to mess anything up.
One thing I do know is that I need core science classes. The only problem is that I work full-time 12 hour night shifts. This makes attending classes in person a major problem. Not working is not an option for me (mortgage, car payment, kid, etc...)
I found my way to the University of New England's online pre med courses and they look like everything I need. I checked the msar and it seems like quite a few schools accept online credits and quite a few don't.
I had originally planned on taking all my science prereqs online through UNE. Like 30+ credits. And hopefully rocking the socks off them and destroying the mcat. Is this wise to limit myself to all online science courses? Anything else I can or should do?
Also, what kind of ECs should I be doing? I did some researchy stuff in nursing school but I don't know if that would be valuable to include in a med school application as it was based on nursing theory. Obviously I have a ton of bedside hours at work and I'm planning on joining a medical mission trip this fall. What else should I add?
Any advice at all as I embark on this journey would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry for rambling. I'm writing this at the end of one of those 12 hour shifts.

Thanks for reading.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

I know many RN that worked in ICU that changed there work status to weekend status and was able to complete whatever classes they needed for school

Sent from my SM-G900P using SDN mobile

 

[JustAPhD]

Sorry I was on call since Friday, the last weekend before application submission, while another adcom was at a conference. With yesterday opening day of application submission, it was busy. A few thoughts (before coffee so perhaps incoherent)

Oh nothing to apologize for! I know it's busy season for you guys, just mentioned you because I wasn't sure you'd see it otherwise.

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

Sorry I was on call since Friday, the last weekend before application submission, while another adcom was at a conference. With yesterday opening day of application submission, it was busy. A few thoughts (before coffee so perhaps incoherent)

1) Dr. Rebecca Patchin, MD, was an ICU nurse for more than a decade before going to medical school at age 35. She went on to become Chair of the Board of Trustees of the AMA (American Medical Association)
2) Most MD schools will not accept online courses for some or all of their required prereqs; more DO schools I feel are open to it.
3) The number of actual required courses is shrinking, though still having much of your work online likely will reduce competitiveness
4) More schools are moving to core competency and allow flexibility (see below) but still may reduce competitiveness
5) I havent kept up with UNECOM success rate but you need to contact them and discuss how many people have used it as the main mechanism into medical school
6) many universities are offering extensive online course work and you may find some less expensive options.
7) Get the MSAR, find the schools that are moving to Core Competency model (ignore the online requirements summary chart in MSAR) and then read their web pages. Lets see if we can identify 10-15 schools that now have similar models as below. Then I would say you could make a decent argument at at school.
8) And of course, you gotta beat the crap out of the MCAT

https://www.einstein.yu.edu/educati...pplication-procedure/course-requirements.aspx
This "competency-based" approach also provides candidates greater flexibility, for example, by substituting laboratory experience gained, while employed, for laboratory and or course requirements taken in school, or by substituting online courses that free up time to pursue interests that enhance the applicant's level of maturity and readiness for the medical profession.

Suggested Minimum Credit Hours and Experience

• In our experience, the above Knowledge Competencies are most successfully attained by applicants who have had a minimum of three years of study toward a baccalaureate degree from an accredited college or university in the U.S. or Canada as well as 40 credit hours of science and mathematics, including advanced biology courses for which letter grades are available (not Pass/Fail, unless college policy), 40 credit hours of humanities and social sciences, and substantial experience in clinical, community, and/or research activities (as described above). Students who complete their science course work in a post-baccalaureate program must have completed at least 30 credit hours in a U.S.-chartered college or university whose grades can be reported and verified by AMCAS.

Course Work Older than Five Years

• Applicants who have completed all of their pre-medical course requirements five years prior to the time of application must show evidence of participation in either academic or work experience in the biological sciences. Academic experience should include at least one course in a discipline such as cell biology, molecular biology, genetics, immunology or neuroscience. Work experience may include research in the biological or physical sciences or clinical investigation

Is this requirement for coursework older than 5 years common? I've only now just heard of it and took all my prereqs just over 5 years ago. Hopefully quantum mechanics counts as "physical sciences research", though even that was 2 years ago

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

Is this requirement for coursework older than 5 years common? I've only now just heard of it and took all my prereqs just over 5 years ago. Hopefully quantum mechanics counts as "physical sciences research", though even that was 2 years ago

5-7 is what I've always heard; always been that way AFAIK

 

[TryingToDoc]

@gonnif How much does life experience and showing growth matter as a non traditional?

 

[xaxxax]

Sorry I was on call since Friday, the last weekend before application submission, while another adcom was at a conference. With yesterday opening day of application submission, it was busy. A few thoughts (before coffee so perhaps incoherent)

1) Dr. Rebecca Patchin, MD, was an ICU nurse for more than a decade before going to medical school at age 35. She went on to become Chair of the Board of Trustees of the AMA (American Medical Association)
2) Most MD schools will not accept online courses for some or all of their required prereqs; more DO schools I feel are open to it.
3) The number of actual required courses is shrinking, though still having much of your work online likely will reduce competitiveness
4) More schools are moving to core competency and allow flexibility (see below) but still may reduce competitiveness
5) I havent kept up with UNECOM success rate but you need to contact them and discuss how many people have used it as the main mechanism into medical school
6) many universities are offering extensive online course work and you may find some less expensive options.
7) Get the MSAR, find the schools that are moving to Core Competency model (ignore the online requirements summary chart in MSAR) and then read their web pages. Lets see if we can identify 10-15 schools that now have similar models as below. Then I would say you could make a decent argument at at school.
8) And of course, you gotta beat the crap out of the MCAT

https://www.einstein.yu.edu/educati...pplication-procedure/course-requirements.aspx
This "competency-based" approach also provides candidates greater flexibility, for example, by substituting laboratory experience gained, while employed, for laboratory and or course requirements taken in school, or by substituting online courses that free up time to pursue interests that enhance the applicant's level of maturity and readiness for the medical profession.

Suggested Minimum Credit Hours and Experience

• In our experience, the above Knowledge Competencies are most successfully attained by applicants who have had a minimum of three years of study toward a baccalaureate degree from an accredited college or university in the U.S. or Canada as well as 40 credit hours of science and mathematics, including advanced biology courses for which letter grades are available (not Pass/Fail, unless college policy), 40 credit hours of humanities and social sciences, and substantial experience in clinical, community, and/or research activities (as described above). Students who complete their science course work in a post-baccalaureate program must have completed at least 30 credit hours in a U.S.-chartered college or university whose grades can be reported and verified by AMCAS.

Course Work Older than Five Years

• Applicants who have completed all of their pre-medical course requirements five years prior to the time of application must show evidence of participation in either academic or work experience in the biological sciences. Academic experience should include at least one course in a discipline such as cell biology, molecular biology, genetics, immunology or neuroscience. Work experience may include research in the biological or physical sciences or clinical investigation
  
  

Thanks so much for all the info! That's very helpful. So for the schools that follow core competency, are you saying they are more willing to accept online credits? Or my nursing experience? Should I still take science courses? I'm a little confused and overwhelmed with how complicated the application process actually is.
My original plan was to take a bunch of science courses to boost my science gpa, do well on the mcat, get a few LOR from my intensivists, and then apply broadly to many different MD schools.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[xaxxax]

Thanks


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[gyngyn]

@gonnif How much does life experience and showing growth matter as a non traditional?

Just as much as it does for new graduates.

 

[wholeheartedly]

@xaxxax
just a heads up. there's an entire nontrad forum on this site with lots of great info
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/nontraditional-students.110/


as for pre req expiration. there isn't a set rule. schools a very very different on this one, so if you aren't sure check the website or call.

 

[DocMcMommy]

I have a piggy back question here. I've asked before but didn't get an answer.

I took some classes online, like gen chem and some general computer science classes. But the tests were in person at the school's proctoring center and the labs (for chemistry) were also in person on campus. I ordered my official transcript and they don't specify that these were online classes. So, when I apply do I still put online? I'm confused because when I see people talking about online classes here, they seem to be talking about classes where the labs and tests were all taken online.

Sorry I was on call since Friday, the last weekend before application submission, while another adcom was at a conference. With yesterday opening day of application submission, it was busy. A few thoughts (before coffee so perhaps incoherent)

1) Dr. Rebecca Patchin, MD, was an ICU nurse for more than a decade before going to medical school at age 35. She went on to become Chair of the Board of Trustees of the AMA (American Medical Association)
2) Most MD schools will not accept online courses for some or all of their required prereqs; more DO schools I feel are open to it.
3) The number of actual required courses is shrinking, though still having much of your work online likely will reduce competitiveness
4) More schools are moving to core competency and allow flexibility (see below) but still may reduce competitiveness
5) I havent kept up with UNECOM success rate but you need to contact them and discuss how many people have used it as the main mechanism into medical school
6) many universities are offering extensive online course work and you may find some less expensive options.
7) Get the MSAR, find the schools that are moving to Core Competency model (ignore the online requirements summary chart in MSAR) and then read their web pages. Lets see if we can identify 10-15 schools that now have similar models as below. Then I would say you could make a decent argument at at school.
8) And of course, you gotta beat the crap out of the MCAT

https://www.einstein.yu.edu/educati...pplication-procedure/course-requirements.aspx
This "competency-based" approach also provides candidates greater flexibility, for example, by substituting laboratory experience gained, while employed, for laboratory and or course requirements taken in school, or by substituting online courses that free up time to pursue interests that enhance the applicant's level of maturity and readiness for the medical profession.

Suggested Minimum Credit Hours and Experience

• In our experience, the above Knowledge Competencies are most successfully attained by applicants who have had a minimum of three years of study toward a baccalaureate degree from an accredited college or university in the U.S. or Canada as well as 40 credit hours of science and mathematics, including advanced biology courses for which letter grades are available (not Pass/Fail, unless college policy), 40 credit hours of humanities and social sciences, and substantial experience in clinical, community, and/or research activities (as described above). Students who complete their science course work in a post-baccalaureate program must have completed at least 30 credit hours in a U.S.-chartered college or university whose grades can be reported and verified by AMCAS.

Course Work Older than Five Years

• Applicants who have completed all of their pre-medical course requirements five years prior to the time of application must show evidence of participation in either academic or work experience in the biological sciences. Academic experience should include at least one course in a discipline such as cell biology, molecular biology, genetics, immunology or neuroscience. Work experience may include research in the biological or physical sciences or clinical investigation
  

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

I have a piggy back question here. I've asked before but didn't get an answer.

I took some classes online, like gen chem and some general computer science classes. But the tests were in person at the school's proctoring center and the labs (for chemistry) were also in person on campus. I ordered my official transcript and they don't specify that these were online classes. So, when I apply do I still put online? I'm confused because when I see people talking about online classes here, they seem to be talking about classes where the labs and tests were all taken online.

It was a combined lecture/lab but only the lab was in person?

Most online classes have you take the tests in person. If it asks you to list your online classes then you need to list it. Often times they can tell by looking at your transcript anyways. Online classes will sometime have an extra character or something denoting that, which adcoms will recognize.

 

[Ho0v-man]

DO schools are very lenient with non traditional students, especially in healthcare fields. I worked 2 jobs as an X-ray/CT tech all the way through undergrad. Got my prereqs at community college and took some other classes online. I'm sure you could get a lot of BSN classes online. My full time job was 12 hour night shifts and my part time was a 32 hour shift every other weekend. Took a ton of call and worked lots of overtime. As a result of my crazy work hours, research and ECs went out the window. That made me almost completely non competitive for MD, but all of the DO schools I interviewed at got it. Just get the grades and the MCAT. Btw, I decided to go to med school at the same age and it totally worked out. You got this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[xaxxax]

@xaxxax
just a heads up. there's an entire nontrad forum on this site with lots of great info
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/forums/nontraditional-students.110/


as for pre req expiration. there isn't a set rule. schools a very very different on this one, so if you aren't sure check the website or call.

Thanks! I actually tried posting originally in the non-trad forum but the site wouldn't allow me.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[wholeheartedly]

Thanks! I actually tried posting originally in the non-trad forum but the site wouldn't allow me.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

that's strange

 

[DocMcMommy]

It was a combined lecture/lab but only the lab was in person?

Most online classes have you take the tests in person. If it asks you to list your online classes then you need to list it. Often times they can tell by looking at your transcript anyways. Online classes will sometime have an extra character or something denoting that, which adcoms will recognize.

Thank you! Yeah, it was combined lecture/lab, but the lecture part was online and the lab was in person. I was curious if it would be considered differently since the labs and tests were in person, but I will definitely still list it as online. Thank you for your response!

 

[ProspectiveKidd]

Thank you! Yeah, it was combined lecture/lab, but the lecture part was online and the lab was in person. I was curious if it would be considered differently since the labs and tests were in person, but I will definitely still list it as online. Thank you for your response!

You could probably make a note of that when listing your online courses if you were so compelled to differentiate. Some courses do actually have online labs.

 

[xaxxax]

DO schools are very lenient with non traditional students, especially in healthcare fields. I worked 2 jobs as an X-ray/CT tech all the way through undergrad. Got my prereqs at community college and took some other classes online. I'm sure you could get a lot of BSN classes online. My full time job was 12 hour night shifts and my part time was a 32 hour shift every other weekend. Took a ton of call and worked lots of overtime. As a result of my crazy work hours, research and ECs went out the window. That made me almost completely non competitive for MD, but all of the DO schools I interviewed at got it. Just get the grades and the MCAT. Btw, I decided to go to med school at the same age and it totally worked out. You got this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You rock! Thanks for the words of encouragement.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[xaxxax]

I'm getting the vibe that MDs schools are more competitive/harder to get into than DO. Why is this? Don't they both practice the same way in the end?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Ho0v-man]

I'm getting the vibe that MDs schools are more competitive/harder to get into than DO. Why is this? Don't they both practice the same way in the end?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Please search this yourself. This is a question that can destroy a good thread. In short, it's always better to go US MD due to matching reasons and probably cost. If you'd like, you can PM me and I'll explain more at length so this thread doesn't get closed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[xaxxax]

Please search this yourself. This is a question that can destroy a good thread. In short, it's always better to go US MD due to matching reasons and probably cost. If you'd like, you can PM me and I'll explain more at length so this thread doesn't get closed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yikes sorry! I definitely don't want to cause trouble.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Ismet]

Moving to non-trad forum

 

[binko]

> Work experience may include research in the biological or physical sciences or clinical investigation

I'm in a similar situation and my most recent coursework is six years old. However during that time I've done a small temporary research internship and co-authored a paper that was recently accepted with revisions to a medical journal, and presented it at a conference. Is this adequate, or do I need to actually enroll in school and take a biochem course or something prior to applying?

 

[Ho0v-man]

^^It's probably okay, but call some schools (especially your state md schools) to check. One of my state schools told me they wouldn't take pre req coursework >3 years old unless I completed higher level courses or retook the classes. So they wanted me to take like pchem and upper division bio courses to be allowed to apply. It would have taken me at least another year (assuming I could get all the courses scheduled in that time) and a ton of money I don't have. It's not even a "top" school.

Or I could just apply DO and get going with my life.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DrMikeP]

Most schools I spoke with wanted core req sciences taken within last 5-7yrs. The other classes they didn't care about. You need them for the mcat anyway so do yourself a favor and retake them, as it would suck for it to be the thing that keeps you from being accepted. Good luck

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[ace_inhibitor111]

I have been asked this question for 15 years and every time I think there is some general trend across schools, t shifts. As DrMikeP says, it isnt likely your prereqs have will have gone stale but you have to show some current work as example of current academic ability. considering regular bio, biochem, and similar have changed greatly, it makes sense to think about a course or two in those areas. Retaking prereqs is not the first path that i would suggest

If you have an otherwise academically strong app, would you recommend applying anyway and then enrolling in summer classes and sending update letters?

 

[xaxxax]

Another question..

I could potentially relocate if I must, but as a single mom I have extensive family support in my home state and would like to stay here. Would it be unwise to limit myself to schools only in my home state if I am able to pull off an excellent MCAT? (There are only 4 schools in my state). Do many pre-meds make it into their top choice?

Also, is it ok if I just start emailing/calling schools to ask how to make myself a more attractive candidate? What's the protocol for that kind of thing?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[DrMikeP]

Another question..

I could potentially relocate if I must, but as a single mom I have extensive family support in my home state and would like to stay here. Would it be unwise to limit myself to schools only in my home state if I am able to pull off an excellent MCAT? (There are only 4 schools in my state). Do many pre-meds make it into their top choice?

Also, is it ok if I just start emailing/calling schools to ask how to make myself a more attractive candidate? What's the protocol for that kind of thing?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

How badly do you want in? Limiting yourself automatically cuts your low odds by 75% or more.

Calling can annoy people if you aren't careful, so use caution. I found an email or two asking questions in a way that showed I had read their info/website was well received. Open house or health profession day type of events can be awesome though and you get to ask a lot of questions.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Ho0v-man]

Another question..

I could potentially relocate if I must, but as a single mom I have extensive family support in my home state and would like to stay here. Would it be unwise to limit myself to schools only in my home state if I am able to pull off an excellent MCAT? (There are only 4 schools in my state). Do many pre-meds make it into their top choice?

Also, is it ok if I just start emailing/calling schools to ask how to make myself a more attractive candidate? What's the protocol for that kind of thing?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

Spend some time looking into programs in towns with low cost of living also. As a family man myself, my top choices were small towns where I could essentially support a family off of just my loans. There's a lot of schools like that on the DO side. I'm not too sure about the MD schools. I think the one in Hershey, PA would fit the bill but that's a guess.

Just focus on your app for now. Grades, ECs/research/community service/shadowing(yes, even people who hang with doctors 12 hrs per day are still supposed to do some shadowing), and then much later MCAT. Trying to decide where your going years before you apply is a recipe for being overwhelmed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[xaxxax]

to add to comments on limiting to local schools, most schools have a 2%-5% acceptance rate individually. what i suggest u consider is onlu applying to those on first cycle, or even considering EDP based on geographic and family concerns. then if you dont get accepted you can reconsider your options on the next cycle. not the most efficient strategy but may in the end work for you

I hate to sound woefully ignorant... But could you explain what EDP and first cycle is? Thank you for the advice.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[xaxxax]

EDP: early decision program, look it up on AMCAS. Im on my phone and too much to type. or someone on the thread can expand

cycle just refers application cycle. year 1 apply to the 4 local schools only. then if you dont get in, reapply year 2 to a broader array of schools

Thanks!


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile