Questions from an aspiring psychiatrist

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pathologyDO

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I am going to be entering medical school this upcoming Fall. Although previously interested in pathology (yes, my name does include the word pathology), lately I have been considering psychiatry very seriously and would really love some information if you're willing to help!


1.) Why did you decide psychiatry? Did you show strong interest early on in medical school or did you gravitate towards the field later?

2.) If you could go back in time and had the option to choose psychiatry or another field, what would you do?

3.) What were your hours like during residency? Did you have a significant home life during those years?

4.) Do you feel like your compensation is sufficient to pay off the loans?

5.) What do you love/hate about psychiatry?

6.) What are your opinions on a D.O. entering psychiatry?

7.) In terms of your daily work schedule, could you please describe the types of patients you interact with and the main ways you treat patients (i.e. mostly long therapy sessions; short visits with mainly prescribing medications, etc.)

8.) What is the outlook for psychiatry over the next 10 years?

9.) Any advice?

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I am going to be entering medical school this upcoming Fall. Although previously interested in pathology (yes, my name does include the word pathology), lately I have been considering psychiatry very seriously and would really love some information if you're willing to help!


1.) Why did you decide psychiatry? Did you show strong interest early on in medical school or did you gravitate towards the field later?


Went to med school thinking I wanted to do rads. Hated anatomy. By the start of 3rd year, it was wide open playing field, I had no idea. Did my first psych rotation early 3rd year. Loved it. Was pretty sure at that point. Did an elective late 3rd year that sealed the deal.

2.) If you could go back in time and had the option to choose psychiatry or another field, what would you do?

Psychiatry. I'm only an intern though, so it hasn't been that long...

3.) What were your hours like during residency? Did you have a significant home life during those years?

Intern year: Most weeks were around 55 or so. Occasionally there's a call week where we're closer to 65-70, but probably 50% of that is spent asleep on call weeks, so it actually feels like less.

4.) Do you feel like your compensation is sufficient to pay off the loans?

I feel like it WILL be. Look at some of the salary threads. My 4th year buddy got an offer for 200k+, at the VA, 40h/wk, plenty of time with patients, gov't benefits, 6 wks vacation...

Also, look up PSLF and do that. Seriously.

quote]5.) What do you love/hate about psychiatry?[/quote]

The quick version. Love the work, the patients, catching diagnoses that other doctors pass off as "a psych problem"...which are many. Hate the stigma, lack of funding, lack of resources (i.e. doctors willing to see patients), etc. Not a huge fan of acute mania...especially when I'm working nights. No sleep for them = no sleep for me.

6.) What are your opinions on a D.O. entering psychiatry?

What a horrible idea. DO's shouldn't do anything besides crack backs/skulls. Oh wait...I'm a DO. It's awesome. 4/10 of my intern class are DO's. It's pretty common. Met lots of DOs on the interview trail. You will get interviews and placements at major universities. 1 or 2 (i.e. UNC and Duke were the only 2 I encountered) will require USMLE and might "discriminate". Everywhere else, and I mean pretty much everywhere, will give you the time of day.

7.) In terms of your daily work schedule, could you please describe the types of patients you interact with and the main ways you treat patients (i.e. mostly long therapy sessions; short visits with mainly prescribing medications, etc.)

Intern. Inpatient only. We have a consult/ER service and an inpatient ward. On consults, I see ER and Floor (i.e. Med/Surg/ICU) patients. ER patients tend to be psych patients. Manic, suicidal, psychotic. They get Haldol. B52. 5/2/1 (5 of Haldol, 2 of Ativan, 1 of Cogentin. Whatever you want to call it. And admission. Or not if they're not suicidal. Had an ER consult for "thought insertion" the other day. It wasn't. At all. ER fail.

On the inpatient unit, I see the people who got admitted through the ER. Depression, mania, psychosis mostly. Borderlines (sigh). Addictions. Lots of that, always. EtOH detox. There's other stuff too. Anorexia. Stiff Person Syndrome (look it up, it's real, rare, and OMG. Case report and possible research coming, stay tuned), PTSD, OCD, Impulse Control Disorders, Conversion, Catatonia, people needing ECT, Brain Tumors that everyone else "missed" (i.e. said it's a psych problem and didn't bother with a head scan), CJD (seriously. also missed.)...everything under the sun. You WILL still get to do plenty of "medicine." I promise.

Hospital Floor consults tend to be more sick patients who have gotten delirious post-surgery or during an infection or something, but medicine thinks they've suddenly developed schizophrenia at age 82 while having pneumonia and a UTI after their hip surgery. Sometimes it's management of psych patients who have a medical issue. A schizophrenia with HIV who is in the ICU for an opportunistic infection. For example. A bipolar crack head s/p CABG. EtOH withdrawal. All kinds of stuff. Basically the entire DSM + all of Harrison's.

8.) What is the outlook for psychiatry over the next 10 years?

Awesome for us. Not so good for patients. BAD shortage. Really, really bad. Even in nice places that people want to live. Unimaginable in places where people don't want to live (very rural areas). We make great money. See my posts in the salary threads. The hourly rate is very good. Do not be fooled by the low yearly salary. Basically, this is artificially low because 70% of psychiatrists work less (technically this is pt care hours) than 40 hours per week (which is about 10-20 less than everyone else, except path, haha). Please SDN-ers, lets not make this another salary thread. Suffice it to say that it's pretty good and not likely to get much worse. We might not make the most, but we have a pretty darn good lifestyle, even in residency and we make good money.

More importantly, there is TONS of research going on, and a big push from the gov't recently to put more money into psych research. The Brain Mapping Project for example. Ongoing work to decrease the stigma of mental illness, and more progress is being made daily. I now see friends posting about their depression or what-have-you on Facebook, who NEVER did this 5 years ago. I think this is progress. Slowly, but steadily. The next 10 years will bring big changes, I think. Good drugs in the pipeline. Been part of a few research trials with promising results. New schizophrenia meds with novel mechanisms. Lots of new avenues being explored as we learn more about neurobiology.

I'm really excited for the future.

9.) Any advice?

Do psych. It rocks. Don't look back.
 
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"Also, look up PSLF and do that. Seriously"

What is pslf??
 
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Noise already crushed this thread, and being an intern as well I don't have a ton to add, but:

1) I decided on psych on the last rotation of my 3rd year, which is about as late as anyone decides anything without being totally frantic. Didn't get my first choice of 4th year psych rotations, but still had a fantastic time on my 3 psych months. Was 99% sold on ob/gyn into fertility medicine during my first 2 years of med school, but got hit by the mack truck that is the culture of ob/gyn and decided I would be much happier in psych, which may have been the best decision I've made in life thus far.

2) I would definitely do psych again

3) As an intern, I average about 55 hours/week while some of my slower typing or more thorough note writing interns average 60. That number should stay about the same and maybe dip to 50/week next year and possibly 45/week by year 3. There are programs with significantly longer hours and some that pretty close to 40 - you can and should tailer your residency ranking to the amount of clinical exposure you feels best matches your learning (that is enough to get comfortable but not so much as to be overwhelmed).

6) Absolutely do it, psychiatry is pretty DO friendly, although some places will be less keen on research prospects of DO's. I wouldn't really want to be part of a culture that is summarily dismissing an equivilent degree with basically identical training anyway.
 
Went to med school thinking I wanted to do rads. Hated anatomy. By the start of 3rd year, it was wide open playing field, I had no idea. Did my first psych rotation early 3rd year. Loved it. Was pretty sure at that point. Did an elective late 3rd year that sealed the deal.



Psychiatry. I'm only an intern though, so it hasn't been that long...



Intern year: Most weeks were around 55 or so. Occasionally there's a call week where we're closer to 65-70, but probably 50% of that is spent asleep on call weeks, so it actually feels like less.



I feel like it WILL be. Look at some of the salary threads. My 4th year buddy got an offer for 200k+, at the VA, 40h/wk, plenty of time with patients, gov't benefits, 6 wks vacation...

Also, look up PSLF and do that. Seriously.



The quick version. Love the work, the patients, catching diagnoses that other doctors pass off as "a psych problem"...which are many. Hate the stigma, lack of funding, lack of resources (i.e. doctors willing to see patients), etc. Not a huge fan of acute mania...especially when I'm working nights. No sleep for them = no sleep for me.



What a horrible idea. DO's shouldn't do anything besides crack backs/skulls. Oh wait...I'm a DO. It's awesome. 4/10 of my intern class are DO's. It's pretty common. Met lots of DOs on the interview trail. You will get interviews and placements at major universities. 1 or 2 (i.e. UNC and Duke were the only 2 I encountered) will require USMLE and might "discriminate". Everywhere else, and I mean pretty much everywhere, will give you the time of day.



Intern. Inpatient only. We have a consult/ER service and an inpatient ward. On consults, I see ER and Floor (i.e. Med/Surg/ICU) patients. ER patients tend to be psych patients. Manic, suicidal, psychotic. They get Haldol. B52. 5/2/1 (5 of Haldol, 2 of Ativan, 1 of Cogentin. Whatever you want to call it. And admission. Or not if they're not suicidal. Had an ER consult for "thought insertion" the other day. It wasn't. At all. ER fail.

On the inpatient unit, I see the people who got admitted through the ER. Depression, mania, psychosis mostly. Borderlines (sigh). Addictions. Lots of that, always. EtOH detox. There's other stuff too. Anorexia. Stiff Person Syndrome (look it up, it's real, rare, and OMG. Case report and possible research coming, stay tuned), PTSD, OCD, Impulse Control Disorders, Conversion, Catatonia, people needing ECT, Brain Tumors that everyone else "missed" (i.e. said it's a psych problem and didn't bother with a head scan), CJD (seriously. also missed.)...everything under the sun. You WILL still get to do plenty of "medicine." I promise.

Hospital Floor consults tend to be more sick patients who have gotten delirious post-surgery or during an infection or something, but medicine thinks they've suddenly developed schizophrenia at age 82 while having pneumonia and a UTI after their hip surgery. Sometimes it's management of psych patients who have a medical issue. A schizophrenia with HIV who is in the ICU for an opportunistic infection. For example. A bipolar crack head s/p CABG. EtOH withdrawal. All kinds of stuff. Basically the entire DSM + all of Harrison's.



Awesome for us. Not so good for patients. BAD shortage. Really, really bad. Even in nice places that people want to live. Unimaginable in places where people don't want to live (very rural areas). We make great money. See my posts in the salary threads. The hourly rate is very good. Do not be fooled by the low yearly salary. Basically, this is artificially low because 70% of psychiatrists work less (technically this is pt care hours) than 40 hours per week (which is about 10-20 less than everyone else, except path, haha). Please SDN-ers, lets not make this another salary thread. Suffice it to say that it's pretty good and not likely to get much worse. We might not make the most, but we have a pretty darn good lifestyle, even in residency and we make good money.

More importantly, there is TONS of research going on, and a big push from the gov't recently to put more money into psych research. The Brain Mapping Project for example. Ongoing work to decrease the stigma of mental illness, and more progress is being made daily. I now see friends posting about their depression or what-have-you on Facebook, who NEVER did this 5 years ago. I think this is progress. Slowly, but steadily. The next 10 years will bring big changes, I think. Good drugs in the pipeline. Been part of a few research trials with promising results. New schizophrenia meds with novel mechanisms. Lots of new avenues being explored as we learn more about neurobiology.

I'm really excited for the future.



Do psych. It rocks. Don't look back.

:thumbup: Excellent post, thank you very, very much. Gunna do some research on SPS and the Brain Mapping Project now !!
 
Went to med school thinking I wanted to do rads. Hated anatomy. By the start of 3rd year, it was wide open playing field, I had no idea. Did my first psych rotation early 3rd year. Loved it. Was pretty sure at that point. Did an elective late 3rd year that sealed the deal.
Yeah, my story was almost identical. After I realized that I hated anatomy, I moved on to my second choice, which was pathology. And then I realized that I still hated anatomy and wasn't a big fan of histology either. I just liked the detective-work part of rads and path, but I found that in the real world, it's mostly just about recognition of patterns that you've already seen a million times before.

I think that the reason why I loved psych was because the tricky part is learning how to communicate with people who can't effectively communicate with anybody else. That satisfied the puzzle-craver in me. And I'm also a scientist at heart, and clinical neuroscience is the final frontier in biology.




Psychiatry. I'm only an intern though, so it hasn't been that long...
Same here. Except that I'm not even an intern quite yet.



I feel like it WILL be. Look at some of the salary threads. My 4th year buddy got an offer for 200k+, at the VA, 40h/wk, plenty of time with patients, gov't benefits, 6 wks vacation...

Also, look up PSLF and do that. Seriously.
Again, exactly right. Psychiatrists earn a bit less than the rest, but remember that they also work fewer hours. If you work 40-50 hrs/week, you can earn as much as most other non-procedural specialists.

Also, when you're thinking about loans, look at it this way - you'll borrow $200-300k and you'll earn $200-300k/year. That's a 1:1 ratio. In my area, an average family earning $60-80k will get a mortgage worth $200-250k, which is a much less favorable ratio. And you need to spend at least $30-40k to raise a family comfortably, so that average family has a much much smaller dispensable income than you'll have.

Of course, student loans are annoying and they substantially limit your financial flexibilty. But as a psychiatrist, you'll never be impoverished due to your loans. Worst-case scenario, you can just live like a resident for another couple of years and use the savings to pay off your entire loan.



5.) What do you love/hate about psychiatry?

The quick version. Love the work, the patients, catching diagnoses that other doctors pass off as "a psych problem"...which are many. Hate the stigma, lack of funding, lack of resources (i.e. doctors willing to see patients), etc. Not a huge fan of acute mania...especially when I'm working nights. No sleep for them = no sleep for me.
Man, you and I have very similar views on these questions.
My favorite thing is being the go-to guy (even as a med student interested in psychiatry) for any patient who is too difficult to handle for the others. Every day, you have the opportunity to find creative ways to talk to people in order to get them to tell you all of their delusions or hallucinations or flashbacks or substance problems or whatever it is that they don't want to share with everybody else.



6.) What are your opinions on a D.O. entering psychiatry?
Non-issue, except at a handful of programs, as already mentioned. I just matched at a major academic program that's near the top of the NIH funding rankings (and happens to be in the same state as you), and we have plenty of DOs in the program. And I'm an IMG. As you know, psychiatry isn't too competitive, so it's a buyer's market... the DO degree won't be a huge hindrance to you.


8.) What is the outlook for psychiatry over the next 10 years?
In terms of psychiatric practice - The NIMH (National Institutes of Mental Health) is encouraging a move towards a more medically-oriented model of psychiatry. That means that we use interventions that are evidence-based, use diagnostic approaches that are based on actual pathophysiology (rather than the traditional approach of using diagnostic clusters based on similarity of symptoms), and using targeted treatments. We're probably more than 10 years away from making a significant shift toward that goal, but that's the model.

In terms of actual lifestyle - There's been a recent increase in Medicare reimbursement for psychiatrists who do a complete physical examination. That's not always necessary and you shouldn't subject the patient to unnecessary poking/prodding just for extra money, but it suggests that they want us to be more involved in the medical care of our patients. This is also in line with a general paradigm shift towards interdisciplinary care in medicine, and especially in psychiatry.

Telepsychiatry is an interesting development that is good for both the patient and the doctor. Rural/remote patients don't have to travel as far to see you, and you can see patients while sitting on a boat. It's also nice because there's very low overhead, so if you don't mind doing telepsych exclusively, then you can run an entire practice without having to pay for an office and the associated complications.

I'm really excited about some of our neuroscience research. When Barack Obama mentions something in the State of the Union address, you know that it might be worthy of some optimism.

As far as the stigma of mental illness - as we all know (and digitlnoize already mentioned), it's fading. I think that the baby boomer generation still perpetuates the bulk of that stigma, while Gen Xers seem to be a bit more ambivalent about mental health and Gen Yers seem to be the group that likes to talk about their psychiatric treatment on facebook. As GenX and GenY become the predominant presences in the media and in public health policy, I think that psychiatry will be forced to grow further. In the last few years, I've been hearing about the need for improved mental health services every time a mentally ill person does something terrible. 10 years ago, I don't think I ever heard about that.
 
I am going to be entering medical school this upcoming Fall. Although previously interested in pathology (yes, my name does include the word pathology), lately I have been considering psychiatry very seriously and would really love some information if you're willing to help!


1.) Why did you decide psychiatry? Did you show strong interest early on in medical school or did you gravitate towards the field later?

2.) If you could go back in time and had the option to choose psychiatry or another field, what would you do?

3.) What were your hours like during residency? Did you have a significant home life during those years?

4.) Do you feel like your compensation is sufficient to pay off the loans?

5.) What do you love/hate about psychiatry?

6.) What are your opinions on a D.O. entering psychiatry?

7.) In terms of your daily work schedule, could you please describe the types of patients you interact with and the main ways you treat patients (i.e. mostly long therapy sessions; short visits with mainly prescribing medications, etc.)

8.) What is the outlook for psychiatry over the next 10 years?

9.) Any advice?

As the other intern on this board - digitlnoiz really hit it on the head - sorry shan you're still a 4th year med student but made great points - I can share some additional points:

1.) I found myself communicating very well with patients and had a knack for listening to and working with the mentally ill, which is rewarding. I made the decision at the end of 3rd year. Also, the competitive spirit of doctors in competitive specialties was and still is a turn-off, which is often evidenced by their lack of bedside manners and care which I found bothersome.

In psych residency it's been great. Doctors see me as the guy who steps in and gets results with psych patients. I really like having that reputation at my hospital. In my intern year so far I've had several occasions where an ER doc, and IM doc, and a surgeon told me they couldn't get very far with their psych patients, and I went in and was able to achieve a level of rapport and re-alignment that was medically beneficial.

2.) You don't see the real deal in med school. You have to work as a doctor in a hospital to get a sense of specialties. After seeing what other docs do I'd pick psych again. It fits me in so many ways.

3.) I have a family and have lots of time for them on days I'm not on call. I'm on call Q5 nights on average.

4.) I'm still a resident so we will see.

5.) I love being the last resort to millions of people who were given up on by almost everyone else. I dislike the stigma that psych patients and doctors get. We tend to be more compassionate providers, and the patients are surprisingly good-hearted, less argumentative than non-psych patients.

6.) DOs are totally welcome. Very DO friendly.

7.) - skip due to time -

8.) Psychiatry is in a dire shortage and is projected to be in a shortage for the next 5 to 10 years. Salaries have steadily increased over the past 5 years and continues to increase (one of the very few medical fields where this is true).

9.) My advice is to be sure talking to patients is something you ENJOY doing, and your affect and personality is at least pleasant and friendly. I've seen a resident from another program that unintentially made patients cry because she is naturally hard-edged. It's very unfortunate.

Good luck! Psych is the best specialty out there if you're cut out for it.
 
Oh, one other thing. The job market is hot. I'm a lowly intern, and already a few hiring agencies have called me about job openings. It feels great to be in really high demand. Don't underestimate the ability to negotiate respectable wages and to take yourself and/or your family anywhere you want. Friends in other specialties haven't been recruited yet. Just something to think about.
 
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I'm a PGY-2 for the next nearly 2 months.

1.) Why did you decide psychiatry? Did you show strong interest early on in medical school or did you gravitate towards the field later?

2.) If you could go back in time and had the option to choose psychiatry or another field, what would you do?

3.) What were your hours like during residency? Did you have a significant home life during those years?

4.) Do you feel like your compensation is sufficient to pay off the loans?

5.) What do you love/hate about psychiatry?

6.) What are your opinions on a D.O. entering psychiatry?

7.) In terms of your daily work schedule, could you please describe the types of patients you interact with and the main ways you treat patients (i.e. mostly long therapy sessions; short visits with mainly prescribing medications, etc.)

8.) What is the outlook for psychiatry over the next 10 years?

9.) Any advice?

1) I had no idea what I wanted to do prior to my 3rd year clerkships. I enjoyed everything I was doing, though I definitely wouldn't be able to stand the surgery lifestyle for longer than the 8 weeks. My 2nd to last clerkship was psychiatry, and at that point I loved it. I loved interacting with the patients and found the manifestations of psychiatric illnesses to be fascinating. I found it interesting to try to understand the diseases and treatments from a biological, brain-based perspective.

I was also very attracted to peds-neuro. It's a very interesting field as well in terms of the conditions and patients, and doing a neuro exam on a young enough kid is fun as it forces you to be creative (sort of like a MSE can, and not quite like other physical exams). The nervous system is so complex, I find it hard not to love. Though a clinic full of kids stable on their seizure meds tipped me in favor of psych in the end.

2) I'd definitely choose psych again.

3) The only times I felt I didn't have enough time at home were the months I was doing internal medicine floors.

4) I have a tub of gold coins I swim in each morning.

5) What I love is in part 1. What I hate...? I don't like the side effects of the antipsychotics. Makes me feel bad for using them sometimes. I also don't like 'the system.' I don't know if this is just in psych, but the general process of moving patients around and getting them hospitalized feels too inefficient.

6) There are several DOs in my program and I don't think you can tell them apart from the MDs.

7) Well in the first two years (at each program I interviewed at, at least), you do CL and inpatient work. Therapy and med checks as an outpatient occur 3rd year.
 
I'm loving these answers, and I'm sure lots of others are too.

Are there any attending psychiatrists out there willing to share? I know there are at least a few that frequent this forum
 
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1.) Why did you decide psychiatry? Did you show strong interest early on in medical school or did you gravitate towards the field later?
Found it really interesting in college, but didn't think anything of it when I started medical school. I enjoyed it again during second year didactics, but again didn't think anything of it. One of my first 3rd year rotations was psych. At that time I realized I really enjoyed the work, and the attending went out of her way to sell me on the field. It also didn't hurt that she let me go home every day at like 1:30PM. I then did 3 other psych rotations each one different and an excellent experience in its own way.


2.) If you could go back in time and had the option to choose psychiatry or another field, what would you do?
I do have some non medical interests that I may consider if I had to go through everything from scratch. As medical specialties go, I would definitely choose psychiatry again.


3.) What were your hours like during residency? Did you have a significant home life during those years?
1 and 2 year before acgme changes (40-50 hours/week). 3 and 4 year 40 hours/week.

4.) Do you feel like your compensation is sufficient to pay off the loans?
Came out with ~170k in loans and having no problem making a significant dent as a resident. Just be careful how much debt you take on. It's increased a lot in just a few years.

6.) What are your opinions on a D.O. entering psychiatry?
No different than a MD
 
I am going to be entering medical school this upcoming Fall. Although previously interested in pathology (yes, my name does include the word pathology), lately I have been considering psychiatry very seriously and would really love some information if you're willing to help!


1.) Why did you decide psychiatry? Did you show strong interest early on in medical school or did you gravitate towards the field later?

2.) If you could go back in time and had the option to choose psychiatry or another field, what would you do?

3.) What were your hours like during residency? Did you have a significant home life during those years?

4.) Do you feel like your compensation is sufficient to pay off the loans?

5.) What do you love/hate about psychiatry?

6.) What are your opinions on a D.O. entering psychiatry?

7.) In terms of your daily work schedule, could you please describe the types of patients you interact with and the main ways you treat patients (i.e. mostly long therapy sessions; short visits with mainly prescribing medications, etc.)

8.) What is the outlook for psychiatry over the next 10 years?

9.) Any advice?

1) Suspected I would do psych early on in medical school. Did not enjoy other rotations.

2) I'd probably do psychiatry again. Again I certainly wouldn't want to do anything else in medicine.

3) The hours are not bad. The hours in a lot of specialities(non surgical specialties arent that bad though). I probably averaged 45-50 hrs a week as a pgy-1 and 2. 35-40 as a pgy 3. And maybe 30 as a pgy4.

4) Yeah, but the compensation is psych is amongst the lowest in medicine. If you go on this board and any other board, people in certain specialties will try to tell you reasons why the salary data is wrong for their field. but they never stop to think that those same arguments could be made for other fields as well. So I psychiatrist making 250k saying "oh this salary data is wrong....I make 250k and I am nothing special" needs to understand that the hospitalist making 300k working 7/7 with 1 extra weekend shift in the off 7 a month can say the exact same thing.

5) I don't really love or hate anything about it. Those are pretty strong words.

6) My opinions on DO's entering psychiatry is about the same as my opinion of american IMG's entering psychiatry(but slightly less so)....that because psychiatry is so noncompetitive the field is wide open to them and that's just the way it is and there isn't much I can do about it so why does it matter? As a DO you will be fine.

7) It's pretty variable, but in a lot of jobs(especially salaried) you are expected to grind to some degree. If you want to be salaried and grinding isn't your thing, look for a govt job or academic job. The bottom line is that even if you are salaried, you aren't truly 'salaried'...the money they pay you doesn't come from some magic pot of gold. They pay you from the money you bring in by seeing patients and billing for that. So thats why some govt jobs like the VA(ie no real fiscal accountability) or academia(education/training money shares) can help if you don't want to grind hard. Of course many of these jobs also pay somewhat less as well.

8) I think the outlook is somewhat uncertain. I think psychiatry is always going to be about the lowest paid specialty in medicine. I think outside pressures from psych nps and psychologists and lcsws/lpcs will exert downward pressure on our salaries over time.
 
1) Suspected I would do psych early on in medical school. Did not enjoy other rotations.

2) I'd probably do psychiatry again. Again I certainly wouldn't want to do anything else in medicine.

3) The hours are not bad. The hours in a lot of specialities(non surgical specialties arent that bad though). I probably averaged 45-50 hrs a week as a pgy-1 and 2. 35-40 as a pgy 3. And maybe 30 as a pgy4.

4) Yeah, but the compensation is psych is amongst the lowest in medicine. If you go on this board and any other board, people in certain specialties will try to tell you reasons why the salary data is wrong for their field. but they never stop to think that those same arguments could be made for other fields as well. So I psychiatrist making 250k saying "oh this salary data is wrong....I make 250k and I am nothing special" needs to understand that the hospitalist making 300k working 7/7 with 1 extra weekend shift in the off 7 a month can say the exact same thing.

5) I don't really love or hate anything about it. Those are pretty strong words.

6) My opinions on DO's entering psychiatry is about the same as my opinion of american IMG's entering psychiatry(but slightly less so)....that because psychiatry is so noncompetitive the field is wide open to them and that's just the way it is and there isn't much I can do about it so why does it matter? As a DO you will be fine.

7) It's pretty variable, but in a lot of jobs(especially salaried) you are expected to grind to some degree. If you want to be salaried and grinding isn't your thing, look for a govt job or academic job. The bottom line is that even if you are salaried, you aren't truly 'salaried'...the money they pay you doesn't come from some magic pot of gold. They pay you from the money you bring in by seeing patients and billing for that. So thats why some govt jobs like the VA(ie no real fiscal accountability) or academia(education/training money shares) can help if you don't want to grind hard. Of course many of these jobs also pay somewhat less as well.

8) I think the outlook is somewhat uncertain. I think psychiatry is always going to be about the lowest paid specialty in medicine. I think outside pressures from psych nps and psychologists and lcsws/lpcs will exert downward pressure on our salaries over time.

First, thank you much for your advice and responses. :thumbup:

I was looking into the PSLF stipulations which state that in order to qualify, you need to work for a non-profit OR a government organization. I assume this would mean working at the VA would suffice to meet these terms, right? So one could theoretically do 4 years residency under IBR, then 6 years at the VA under IBR and then qualify for loan forgiveness (given that it is around by that time). Seems like a solid way to make a good salary and at the same time, work towards ameliorating all medical school debt. :naughty:
 
First, thank you much for your advice and responses. :thumbup:

I was looking into the PSLF stipulations which state that in order to qualify, you need to work for a non-profit OR a government organization. I assume this would mean working at the VA would suffice to meet these terms, right? So one could theoretically do 4 years residency under IBR, then 6 years at the VA under IBR and then qualify for loan forgiveness (given that it is around by that time). Seems like a solid way to make a good salary and at the same time, work towards ameliorating all medical school debt. :naughty:

Please explain your abbreviations in the context you are using them.
 
Please explain your abbreviations in the context you are using them.

First, thank you much for your advice and responses. :thumbup:

I was looking into the PSLF stipulations which state that in order to qualify, you need to work for a non-profit OR a government organization. I assume this would mean working at the VA would suffice to meet these terms, right? So one could theoretically do 4 years residency under IBR, then 6 years at the VA under IBR and then qualify for loan forgiveness (given that it is around by that time). Seems like a solid way to make a good salary and at the same time, work towards ameliorating all medical school debt. :naughty:

PSLF = Public Service Loan Forgiveness

IBR = Income Based Repayment

VA = Veteran Affairs
 
First, thank you much for your advice and responses. :thumbup:

I was looking into the PSLF stipulations which state that in order to qualify, you need to work for a non-profit OR a government organization. I assume this would mean working at the VA would suffice to meet these terms, right? So one could theoretically do 4 years residency under IBR, then 6 years at the VA under IBR and then qualify for loan forgiveness (given that it is around by that time). Seems like a solid way to make a good salary and at the same time, work towards ameliorating all medical school debt. :naughty:

You'll just want to double-check and be sure that the residency will count toward the 10 years of public sector work. If it's through the VA or another non-profit, then I don't really know why it wouldn't, seeing as how for us (psychologists), post-docs seem to be included...but hey, it's the government, so who knows. And this is of course also assuming PSLF is still around in 10 years.
 
You'll just want to double-check and be sure that the residency will count toward the 10 years of public sector work.
Time in residency counts towards PSLF providing you are at a public university or communty program. If you're at a private university program, it depends. If you're at a private residency program (such as Kaiser), you're SOL.
And this is of course also assuming PSLF is still around in 10 years.
There's the rub.
 
Does the army count for PSLF?

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2
 
Does the army count for PSLF?

Sent from my SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

Unless I am mistaken the army will usually pay for your entire tuition, and give you a nice living stipend while in medical school. But besides that, and considering that you could join the army after graduating (which would be far less beneficial), I would think that since the army is a government run organization that it would be considered public service eligible under PSLF, but yet I am no expert on this subject and am still researching options myself.

Good question though.
 
Does the army count for PSLF?
Yes. It counts. If you take HPSP in medical school, you get a stipend of $2k/month and you graduate debt free. The catch is that you have to do an army psych residency then work in the army full time for four years.

Alternately, you could not take HPSP, go ahead and do the civilian thing, then join outright after finishing residency. The signing bonus is $270k. You would have to serve four years full time.
 
Yes. It counts. If you take HPSP in medical school, you get a stipend of $2k/month and you graduate debt free. The catch is that you have to do an army psych residency then work in the army full time for four years.

Alternately, you could not take HPSP, go ahead and do the civilian thing, then join outright after finishing residency. The signing bonus is $270k. You would have to serve four years full time.

Whoa... so the $270K is a lump sum given to you? If so, hot damn that is tempting...
 
I am confident PSLF will be around. Not only are they not showing signs of dismantling it, they are expanding it with this new Pay as you Earn program. Also, historically, when they've made sweeping changes like that, it's applied only to loans dispersed after the date of the change.

This has been argued ad nauseum on the board. Some people are pessimists and disagree with me.
 
Whoa... so the $270K is a lump sum given to you? If so, hot damn that is tempting...

Well, not quite. The way it worked when I was in the military was you get half upfront, and the rest given to you annually over the next three years.
 
Well, not quite. The way it worked when I was in the military was you get half upfront, and the rest given to you annually over the next three years.
Not sure how it works. I was told lump sum, but I didn't take it so who knows?
 
I am confident PSLF will be around. Not only are they not showing signs of dismantling it, they are expanding it with this new Pay as you Earn program. Also, historically, when they've made sweeping changes like that, it's applied only to loans dispersed after the date of the change.

This has been argued ad nauseum on the board. Some people are pessimists and disagree with me.
It's not pessimism so much as just a different point of view.

You're right that they are not "dismantling it," but then again, there's literally nothing to dismantle. There's no application, there have been no loan write off's. It hasn't cost anything. Once starts writing off $50-$100 million in federal loans for people earning $200K/year, that will be the time to watch government and public reaction. If we're still belt tightening then, putting a basic income ceiling on a program would be a likely change.

And while I agree with how things are typically grandfathered, but since there is no program we've signed up for and certainly no contracts, there's nothing to grandfather.

I'm guardedly optimistic. But my whining tolerance diminishes each year. And if/when they close this PSLF for docs, I anticipate a whole bunch of "it's not fairs" that will be grating.
 
They could put an income cap, but that wouldn't close it to docs. Only docs making 200k/yr. there are ways around this.
 
1.) Why did you decide psychiatry? Did you show strong interest early on in medical school or did you gravitate towards the field later?
Love the field, never bored, underserved, pays better than medicine for less hours, lifestyle specialty, allows for more "operator dependent" procedures that are interpersonal [psychotherapy], big fish in small pond.

It was always on a short list.

2.) If you could go back in time and had the option to choose psychiatry or another field, what would you do?
Exactly what I did.

3.) What were your hours like during residency? Did you have a significant home life during those years?
Averaged 60 hour weeks. Got married during that period.

4.) Do you feel like your compensation is sufficient to pay off the loans?
Yes.

5.) What do you love/hate about psychiatry?
Love the flexibility in time/lifestyle, and that you are never really "done" training. You can master a level of it (psychopharm or a certain type of therapy), but there are many many more layers to learn. So someone who aspires to be a great clinician can always be challenged to develop further than he/she is.

Hate - don't hate anything. Maybe the overdiagnosis of ADHD, perpetuated by pharma. More annoyed rather than "hate." Plus turf wars.

6.) What are your opinions on a D.O. entering psychiatry?
Not sure what that has to do with the price of tea in China. I have an issue with lazy clinicians entering the field, doing it because it's accessible and easy. If that's an MD or a DO, I don't care, I'd rather they do something else.

7.) In terms of your daily work schedule, could you please describe the types of patients you interact with and the main ways you treat patients (i.e. mostly long therapy sessions; short visits with mainly prescribing medications, etc.)
I have a divided practice, doing psychotherapy (psychodynamic, CBT, brief strategic, hypnosis) and medication management in my private practice (cash pay, varied ages, varied severity). I use those same tools as a consultant doing "street medicine" and treatment of the chronically homeless/substance abusing/mentally ill/physically ill, with a team.

8.) What is the outlook for psychiatry over the next 10 years?
It'll shift. There will always be jobs, and especially jobs for quality clinicians. I put my energy into being the best at what I do, rather than worrying about politics.

9.) Any advice?
Read a lot, question, think for yourself. Know the evidence, then have good reason to deviate from that. Learning psych is like learning physics. Get a foundation, then unlearn it as you move into progressively more complex understanding of the field.

First you learn the real basics in grade school (nothing is smaller than an atom), then you unlearn that and learn about "particles" called protons/electrons/neutrons. Then you unlearn that and learn Really electrons aren't particles, and neither is light, though there's that whole wave/particle duality thingy. Then it turns out electrons have "probabilities," and then there's string theory, and so on. But the foundational understanding is important at each level to get the framework, and while the exceptions are recognized, in a way every level is true, from a perspective.

Psych is like that. Keep your eye on the big picture, while learning the minutiae.
 
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9.) Any advice?
Read a lot, question, think for yourself. Know the evidence, then have good reason to deviate from that. Learning psych is like learning physics. Get a foundation, then unlearn it as you move into progressively more complex understanding of the field.

First you learn the real basics in grade school (nothing is smaller than an atom), then you unlearn that and learn about "particles" called protons/electrons/neutrons. Then you unlearn that and learn Really electrons aren't particles, and neither is light, though there's that whole wave/particle duality thingy. Then it turns out electrons have "probabilities," and then there's string theory, and so on. But the foundational understanding is important at each level to get the framework, and while the exceptions are recognized, in a way every level is true, from a perspective.

Psych is like that. Keep your eye on the big picture, while learning the minutiae.

Nitemagi, I just thought that I'd share that I found this elegantly put, and loved it.
 
Went to med school thinking I wanted to do rads. Hated anatomy. By the start of 3rd year, it was wide open playing field, I had no idea. Did my first psych rotation early 3rd year. Loved it. Was pretty sure at that point. Did an elective late 3rd year that sealed the deal.



Psychiatry. I'm only an intern though, so it hasn't been that long...



Intern year: Most weeks were around 55 or so. Occasionally there's a call week where we're closer to 65-70, but probably 50% of that is spent asleep on call weeks, so it actually feels like less.



I feel like it WILL be. Look at some of the salary threads. My 4th year buddy got an offer for 200k+, at the VA, 40h/wk, plenty of time with patients, gov't benefits, 6 wks vacation...

Also, look up PSLF and do that. Seriously.

quote]5.) What do you love/hate about psychiatry?

The quick version. Love the work, the patients, catching diagnoses that other doctors pass off as "a psych problem"...which are many. Hate the stigma, lack of funding, lack of resources (i.e. doctors willing to see patients), etc. Not a huge fan of acute mania...especially when I'm working nights. No sleep for them = no sleep for me.



What a horrible idea. DO's shouldn't do anything besides crack backs/skulls. Oh wait...I'm a DO. It's awesome. 4/10 of my intern class are DO's. It's pretty common. Met lots of DOs on the interview trail. You will get interviews and placements at major universities. 1 or 2 (i.e. UNC and Duke were the only 2 I encountered) will require USMLE and might "discriminate". Everywhere else, and I mean pretty much everywhere, will give you the time of day.



Intern. Inpatient only. We have a consult/ER service and an inpatient ward. On consults, I see ER and Floor (i.e. Med/Surg/ICU) patients. ER patients tend to be psych patients. Manic, suicidal, psychotic. They get Haldol. B52. 5/2/1 (5 of Haldol, 2 of Ativan, 1 of Cogentin. Whatever you want to call it. And admission. Or not if they're not suicidal. Had an ER consult for "thought insertion" the other day. It wasn't. At all. ER fail.

On the inpatient unit, I see the people who got admitted through the ER. Depression, mania, psychosis mostly. Borderlines (sigh). Addictions. Lots of that, always. EtOH detox. There's other stuff too. Anorexia. Stiff Person Syndrome (look it up, it's real, rare, and OMG. Case report and possible research coming, stay tuned), PTSD, OCD, Impulse Control Disorders, Conversion, Catatonia, people needing ECT, Brain Tumors that everyone else "missed" (i.e. said it's a psych problem and didn't bother with a head scan), CJD (seriously. also missed.)...everything under the sun. You WILL still get to do plenty of "medicine." I promise.

Hospital Floor consults tend to be more sick patients who have gotten delirious post-surgery or during an infection or something, but medicine thinks they've suddenly developed schizophrenia at age 82 while having pneumonia and a UTI after their hip surgery. Sometimes it's management of psych patients who have a medical issue. A schizophrenia with HIV who is in the ICU for an opportunistic infection. For example. A bipolar crack head s/p CABG. EtOH withdrawal. All kinds of stuff. Basically the entire DSM + all of Harrison's.



Awesome for us. Not so good for patients. BAD shortage. Really, really bad. Even in nice places that people want to live. Unimaginable in places where people don't want to live (very rural areas). We make great money. See my posts in the salary threads. The hourly rate is very good. Do not be fooled by the low yearly salary. Basically, this is artificially low because 70% of psychiatrists work less (technically this is pt care hours) than 40 hours per week (which is about 10-20 less than everyone else, except path, haha). Please SDN-ers, lets not make this another salary thread. Suffice it to say that it's pretty good and not likely to get much worse. We might not make the most, but we have a pretty darn good lifestyle, even in residency and we make good money.

More importantly, there is TONS of research going on, and a big push from the gov't recently to put more money into psych research. The Brain Mapping Project for example. Ongoing work to decrease the stigma of mental illness, and more progress is being made daily. I now see friends posting about their depression or what-have-you on Facebook, who NEVER did this 5 years ago. I think this is progress. Slowly, but steadily. The next 10 years will bring big changes, I think. Good drugs in the pipeline. Been part of a few research trials with promising results. New schizophrenia meds with novel mechanisms. Lots of new avenues being explored as we learn more about neurobiology.

I'm really excited for the future.



Do psych. It rocks. Don't look back.[/QUOTE]



What a great response! The other ones as well. Very motivating!
 
Time in residency counts towards PSLF providing you are at a public university or communty program. If you're at a private university program, it depends. If you're at a private residency program (such as Kaiser), you're SOL.

Are you sure about this? Who is the actual employer for a residency program such as Kaiser? In FREIDA, it lists "Kaiser Permanente Medical Group (Northern California)" as the sponsor of one of the IM residencies (in Oakland). When you click into the institution information, it says the type of ownership control is "other non-profit." I know the individual medical groups at hospitals are private for-profit, but is the actual employer in most of these residency programs a non-profit? It doesn't seem like this info in FREIDA is reliable... if that's the case, how do you find out for sure who the employer in a residency is, and look up their non-profit/for-profit status?
 
Are you sure about this? Who is the actual employer for a residency program such as Kaiser? In FREIDA, it lists "Kaiser Permanente Medical Group (Northern California)" as the sponsor of one of the IM residencies (in Oakland). When you click into the institution information, it says the type of ownership control is "other non-profit." I know the individual medical groups at hospitals are private for-profit, but is the actual employer in most of these residency programs a non-profit? It doesn't seem like this info in FREIDA is reliable... if that's the case, how do you find out for sure who the employer in a residency is, and look up their non-profit/for-profit status?
No clue. I go to a public program. The line about Kaiser was given by a financial affairs consultant that lectured to all graduating medical students regarding PSLF. He seemed to know what he was talking about, but I didn't dig deeper into the Kaiser thing since I wasn't going there.

I would contact the program directly. I do not trust anything I read on FREIDA. It just has way too much bad/out of date info.
 
I began reading through this forum as I was checking out different specialties. I must say, this is one of the most (if not the most) informative of the bunch. I'll be entering medical school this fall and I've been really inspired by the things I've been reading. Thanks for all of the thoughtful responses, y'all.
 
I began reading through this forum as I was checking out different specialties. I must say, this is one of the most (if not the most) informative of the bunch. I'll be entering medical school this fall and I've been really inspired by the things I've been reading. Thanks for all of the thoughtful responses, y'all.
Glad to hear it. Going into med school with an open mind as to specialties pays off in spades.

The most miserable medical students are the ones who go in obsessed with one specialty, because then anything that they feel doesn't directly apply is boring or irrelevant. Go in with an open mind and you can really find most of med school pretty damn interesting.
 
Glad to hear it. Going into med school with an open mind as to specialties pays off in spades.

The most miserable medical students are the ones who go in obsessed with one specialty, because then anything that they feel doesn't directly apply is boring or irrelevant. Go in with an open mind and you can really find most of med school pretty damn interesting.

I can definitely see the importance of having an open mind, but does it not also help to take steps towards being a competitive residency candidate from relatively early on? I'm not signing my life away to psych, but I'd love to get involved in some research.
 
i can definitely see the importance of having an open mind, but does it not also help to take steps towards being a competitive residency candidate from relatively early on? I'm not signing my life away to psych, but i'd love to get involved in some research.

+1
 
I can definitely see the importance of having an open mind, but does it not also help to take steps towards being a competitive residency candidate from relatively early on? I'm not signing my life away to psych, but I'd love to get involved in some research.

No, making yourself competitive early on certainly won't help you later when you apply. That would be impossible.
 
Glad to hear it. Going into med school with an open mind as to specialties pays off in spades.

The most miserable medical students are the ones who go in obsessed with one specialty, because then anything that they feel doesn't directly apply is boring or irrelevant. Go in with an open mind and you can really find most of med school pretty damn interesting
.

This is really, really, really good advice for all the MS0's who may be reading the thread, I don't think there is anyone more grumpy in my class than the people who "knew" they wanted to do ophtho and nothing else from the beginning and get a grand total of like 2.5 hours of lecture about the eye in the first two years.

First 6 months of medschool I was so convinced I was going to do psych that I kind of unconsciously was blowing off actually applying myself to learn anatomy well and I kind of regret that because it was a waste of really a good opportunity to learn. As a second year my interests were much broader and I think I learned a ton more because of it.
 
This is a good thread - thanks!

I was surprised to find people who were not interested in anatomy - I love it!
Besides, if I do psych, I will add OMM - it works!

The body is a unit :)
 
I was surprised to find people who were not interested in anatomy - I love it!
Is it really that surprising? I love psychiatry, but I'm perfectly aware of the fact that many people hate it because they don't like dealing with people with whom it is difficult to communicate. When I was in med school, I'd say that a majority of people hated anatomy (myself included) and another majority hated psychiatry.


Besides, if I do psych, I will add OMM - it works!

The body is a unit :)
I'm always open to new ideas, so if you start using OMM in psych, please measure some outcomes and publish your results. I keep hearing DOs saying that OMM is useful in psych, but I haven't been able to find a study to prove that. You'll convince the allopathic people when there's evidence-based support... just like in the debate about different forms of psychotherapy.
The body is a unit, but that doesn't mean that every action has an impact on everything else unless you do something really drastic. My car is also a unit, but changing the tires or aligning the suspension doesn't have any effect on my turbo wastegate parameters or my ECU compression and air/fuel ratios (that was the closest analogy I could think of that compares manual manipulation to mental function). But I would love to see something beyond anecdotal evidence, since it would mean that we have a new exciting treatment option. I know that it's a difficult study to do, but as soon as I see reliable research to demonstrate the efficacy and safety of OMM in psychiatric settings, I'll sign up for whatever OMM training is available to MDs.
 
Hi, psychiatrists that answered this thread, are you practicing in the US? Thank you!
 
Thanks so much for writing such a detailed response. Do you practice in the US?



Went to med school thinking I wanted to do rads. Hated anatomy. By the start of 3rd year, it was wide open playing field, I had no idea. Did my first psych rotation early 3rd year. Loved it. Was pretty sure at that point. Did an elective late 3rd year that sealed the deal.



Psychiatry. I'm only an intern though, so it hasn't been that long...



Intern year: Most weeks were around 55 or so. Occasionally there's a call week where we're closer to 65-70, but probably 50% of that is spent asleep on call weeks, so it actually feels like less.



I feel like it WILL be. Look at some of the salary threads. My 4th year buddy got an offer for 200k+, at the VA, 40h/wk, plenty of time with patients, gov't benefits, 6 wks vacation...

Also, look up PSLF and do that. Seriously.

quote]5.) What do you love/hate about psychiatry?

The quick version. Love the work, the patients, catching diagnoses that other doctors pass off as "a psych problem"...which are many. Hate the stigma, lack of funding, lack of resources (i.e. doctors willing to see patients), etc. Not a huge fan of acute mania...especially when I'm working nights. No sleep for them = no sleep for me.



What a horrible idea. DO's shouldn't do anything besides crack backs/skulls. Oh wait...I'm a DO. It's awesome. 4/10 of my intern class are DO's. It's pretty common. Met lots of DOs on the interview trail. You will get interviews and placements at major universities. 1 or 2 (i.e. UNC and Duke were the only 2 I encountered) will require USMLE and might "discriminate". Everywhere else, and I mean pretty much everywhere, will give you the time of day.



Intern. Inpatient only. We have a consult/ER service and an inpatient ward. On consults, I see ER and Floor (i.e. Med/Surg/ICU) patients. ER patients tend to be psych patients. Manic, suicidal, psychotic. They get Haldol. B52. 5/2/1 (5 of Haldol, 2 of Ativan, 1 of Cogentin. Whatever you want to call it. And admission. Or not if they're not suicidal. Had an ER consult for "thought insertion" the other day. It wasn't. At all. ER fail.

On the inpatient unit, I see the people who got admitted through the ER. Depression, mania, psychosis mostly. Borderlines (sigh). Addictions. Lots of that, always. EtOH detox. There's other stuff too. Anorexia. Stiff Person Syndrome (look it up, it's real, rare, and OMG. Case report and possible research coming, stay tuned), PTSD, OCD, Impulse Control Disorders, Conversion, Catatonia, people needing ECT, Brain Tumors that everyone else "missed" (i.e. said it's a psych problem and didn't bother with a head scan), CJD (seriously. also missed.)...everything under the sun. You WILL still get to do plenty of "medicine." I promise.

Hospital Floor consults tend to be more sick patients who have gotten delirious post-surgery or during an infection or something, but medicine thinks they've suddenly developed schizophrenia at age 82 while having pneumonia and a UTI after their hip surgery. Sometimes it's management of psych patients who have a medical issue. A schizophrenia with HIV who is in the ICU for an opportunistic infection. For example. A bipolar crack head s/p CABG. EtOH withdrawal. All kinds of stuff. Basically the entire DSM + all of Harrison's.



Awesome for us. Not so good for patients. BAD shortage. Really, really bad. Even in nice places that people want to live. Unimaginable in places where people don't want to live (very rural areas). We make great money. See my posts in the salary threads. The hourly rate is very good. Do not be fooled by the low yearly salary. Basically, this is artificially low because 70% of psychiatrists work less (technically this is pt care hours) than 40 hours per week (which is about 10-20 less than everyone else, except path, haha). Please SDN-ers, lets not make this another salary thread. Suffice it to say that it's pretty good and not likely to get much worse. We might not make the most, but we have a pretty darn good lifestyle, even in residency and we make good money.

More importantly, there is TONS of research going on, and a big push from the gov't recently to put more money into psych research. The Brain Mapping Project for example. Ongoing work to decrease the stigma of mental illness, and more progress is being made daily. I now see friends posting about their depression or what-have-you on Facebook, who NEVER did this 5 years ago. I think this is progress. Slowly, but steadily. The next 10 years will bring big changes, I think. Good drugs in the pipeline. Been part of a few research trials with promising results. New schizophrenia meds with novel mechanisms. Lots of new avenues being explored as we learn more about neurobiology.

I'm really excited for the future.



Do psych. It rocks. Don't look back.[/QUOTE]
 
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