Questions from someone who knows nothing about the military

[Mace1370]

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I have been accepted to USUHS and it looks like I will be going there (since I don't have any other interviews lined up). I was accepted to the Army branch and some of my questions pertain directly to this. Here we go:

1. I've heard (from threads on these boards and from people I have talked with directly) that doctors are sometimes order by officers of higher rank to change the plan of treatment. Most of the complaints I have heard have been from Navy or AF doctors. Is this also common in the Army?

2. This may seem silly, but how exactly are the grooming standards enforced? I don't have a beard, but I'm not sure if my hair meets the Army's standards. For reference, it is similar in length and styling to this (except part is on left side):

I wouldn't mind changing my hair style, but I think I look bad with short hair (... lol).

3. Payback for going to USUHS is 7 years service and then many years after that in the reserves. How exactly does the reserves work? I assume I can go into private practice after 7 years if I am unhappy with my situation. Are the odds high that I will be called in to do something after the 7 years of service are up?

4. For those of you who are/were military physicians, is there any information regarding beuracracy/politics/rules/etc that you really wish you had known going in? I know very little about the military so I'm trying to get all the advice I can.

5. In regards to keeping up your skills, how practical is it to moonlight on the weekends?

6. Which specialties does the Army "really need" and which specialties are they "not fond" of? Is it true that if you pick a specialty that isn't sought after by the Army that you will get worse deployments (ie: middle of no where)?

 

[mslall]

I also had a question, somewhat along the lines of Mace's #5. Is the whole problem with skill atrophy a problem with initially learning skills, ie. not seeing enough patients or doing enough procedures in residency? or is the problem keeping up with one's skills after moving away from an MTF? I'm sure, from what i've read, that deployments dont help either.


Also, Mace, the jon travolta look/length might work at school or possibly even in the army once you're a resident or attending, but i'd be willing to bet that it wont fly at OBC this summer. see you there man

 

[colbgw02]

I have been accepted to USUHS and it looks like I will be going there (since I don't have any other interviews lined up). I was accepted to the Army branch and some of my questions pertain directly to this. Here we go:

1. I've heard (from threads on these boards and from people I have talked with directly) that doctors are sometimes order by officers of higher rank to change the plan of treatment. Most of the complaints I have heard have been from Navy or AF doctors. Is this also common in the Army?

2. This may seem silly, but how exactly are the grooming standards enforced? I don't have a beard, but I'm not sure if my hair meets the Army's standards. For reference, it is similar in length and styling to this (except part is on left side):

I wouldn't mind changing my hair style, but I think I look bad with short hair (... lol).

3. Payback for going to USUHS is 7 years service and then many years after that in the reserves. How exactly does the reserves work? I assume I can go into private practice after 7 years if I am unhappy with my situation. Are the odds high that I will be called in to do something after the 7 years of service are up?

4. For those of you who are/were military physicians, is there any information regarding beuracracy/politics/rules/etc that you really wish you had known going in? I know very little about the military so I'm trying to get all the advice I can.

5. In regards to keeping up your skills, how practical is it to moonlight on the weekends?

6. Which specialties does the Army "really need" and which specialties are they "not fond" of? Is it true that if you pick a specialty that isn't sought after by the Army that you will get worse deployments (ie: middle of no where)?

1. Never seen or even heard of this happening. I'm sure it does though.

2. Do you want to know how they're enforced or what the grooming standards are? If it's the latter, then I'm sure you could find the manual online somewhere. Travolta's hair is too long, but I've seen officers in the medical corps get away with worse.

3. I won't go into all the permutations of your payback, but yes, you can leave active duty after paying back 7 years as a board-certified, practicing physician. That can change based on when you do your residency and if you take on any additional obligation. I'll refrain on commenting on life as a physician reservist, but suffice it to say that you shouldn't join the military -reserves or otherwise - if you don't like the idea of being called upon to deploy.

4. It's probably too strict for the medical corps, but consider buying and reading the Army Officer's Guide. It can square you away on things like your uniforms and protocol enough to hopefully keep you from looking like an ***** on your first day. The rest you'll pick up soon enough.

5. You will not be able to moonlight as a resident. That's an Army-wide rule for GME. Moonlighting once you're done with training is location specific, and a jerk commanding officer can make it pretty difficult to do so. FWIW, the skill atrophy issue seems to be more of a problem with the surgical specialties.

6. The Army needs all specialties. When you deploy, however, they may not deploy you to practice your chosen craft. For example, I know some dermatologists who deployed as general medical officers. OB/GYNs get deployed as half general surgeons - whatever the hell that is. BTW, most deployments are to the "middle of nowhere". You're probably getting deployment confused with duty station. Going to Iraq is a deployment; going to South Korea is just a permanent change of station.

 

[DrMetal]

here's my 2 pesos:

1. I've heard (from threads on these boards and from people I have talked with directly) that doctors are sometimes order by officers of higher rank to change the plan of treatment. Most of the complaints I have heard have been from Navy or AF doctors. Is this also common in the Army?

If my understanding is correct, the only one that can "order" you to change the diagnosis/treatment of a patient is another medical officer (aka an MD) that's senior to you. Such as an attending when you're a resident, or the DH when you're a junior attending. A nurse, no matter what rank, can't walk up to you and order you to change a med, tell you when/where to operate, etc. Now, a nurse in charge of a department or the entire hospital could of course make policy that (you might feel) is constricting and precludes good healthcare, as I've heard people complain about that here. But, I've also heard of good nurses and non-MDs, running clinics/hospitals in a very good manner. Who knows, that's hard to call. And you could probably find analagous situations in civilian medicine . . the obvious difference being that in milmed you cant just walk away or shoot off your mouth.

2. This may seem silly, but how exactly are the grooming standards enforced? I don't have a beard, but I'm not sure if my hair meets the Army's standards. For reference, it is similar in length and styling to this (except part is on left side):

Quite honestly, this should be the least of your concerns. Military life requires a lot of sacrifices, the least of which is your hair style. Now having said that, I think this kind of haircut is ok, maybe a little shorter.

3. Payback for going to USUHS is 7 years service and then many years after that in the reserves. How exactly does the reserves work? I assume I can go into private practice after 7 years if I am unhappy with my situation. Are the odds high that I will be called in to do something after the 7 years of service are up?

if my understanding is correct, after the 7 year AD obligation, you must remain in the IRR (inactive ready reserve) for 7 more years.

I know something about the reserves, being the current XO of a reserve unit (not a medical one though, but I've witnessed a lot of inter-workings in NAVRES, and higher DODRES stuff). If you're in the IRR, you do nothing. You don't drill once a month, the only thing you have to do is "muster" (log into a website) once a year, to show you're accounted for. Yes, you could be recalled to active duty, but to be honest the chances are slim (even in the medical corp, I think). To recall someone from the IRR, the DOD has to justify why somebody from the AD component, or civilian contractor, or someone from the Active Reserves can't fill the requirement. Only if a body can't be found from these 3 pools, then will they recall someone from the IRR. I was told that if we start recalling people from the IRR, then the draft isn't too far behind and we're probably in a WWII/Vietnam scenario (in other words, in a world of sh**). So I don't think you'll have much to worry about being in the IRR.

4. For those of you who are/were military physicians, is there any information regarding beuracracy/politics/rules/etc that you really wish you had known going in? I know very little about the military so I'm trying to get all the advice I can.

whoa! where to begin!?
here's my list of rules:
1. pick and choose your battles carefully
2. let other people lead when its appropriate
3. keep strict attention to detail
4. don't be afraid to bend/break stupid rules, espeically if you're trying to help somebody else. just CYA.
5. look people square in the eye and with a straight face, when you mean business.
6. be curtious and smile when you're trying to get something form a civilian contractor
7. if you work from home, just remember, whiskey and email don't mix.

5. In regards to keeping up your skills, how practical is it to moonlight on the weekends?

hard to answer now, all depends on where you end up. The military doesn't have to let you moonlight. Depends on your command, your CO, etc etc.

Do some real soul-searching dude, that's a tough decision. Just make sure you really want to be in the military, that's very important.

 

[AFSmiley]

My understanding is there are 2 acceptable haircuts for men in the US military. Examples in celebrity form have been posted below.

 

[notdeadyet]

I have been accepted to USUHS and it looks like I will be going there (since I don't have any other interviews lined up).

Think about this long and hard. USUHS is a very bad idea unless you are very comfortable with the idea of devoting a large chunk of your life to military service. If you are not gung ho about going into the military, you are far better off sitting out this cycle, improving your app, and reapplying for next year.

Assuming you do a four year residency, you will be spending 15 years in the full time military. That is a long time to be working in an environment you do not enjoy. Hair cuts are the least of the culture adjustments.

Don't get me wrong. USUHS is a good school. But if I were to sign a promise to spend 15 years in Nebraska for the sake of going to med school, I'd be damned sure I liked Nebraska first.

 

[a1qwerty55]

I have been accepted to USUHS and it looks like I will be going there (since I don't have any other interviews lined up). I was accepted to the Army branch and some of my questions pertain directly to this. Here we go:

1. I've heard (from threads on these boards and from people I have talked with directly) that doctors are sometimes order by officers of higher rank to change the plan of treatment. Most of the complaints I have heard have been from Navy or AF doctors. Is this also common in the Army?)

In 15 years of service, I have never ever seen an example of this. Medicine is a profession. You stand by your guns, provide references for what you you are doing and nut up if anyone tries to dissuade you. I think this is an USAF issue, not Army.

2. This may seem silly, but how exactly are the grooming standards enforced? I don't have a beard, but I'm not sure if my hair meets the Army's standards. For reference, it is similar in length and styling to this (except part is on left side):

Off the ears and not too bushy and you will do fine. This isn't the marine corps.

3. Payback for going to USUHS is 7 years service and then many years after that in the reserves. How exactly does the reserves work? I assume I can go into private practice after 7 years if I am unhappy with my situation. Are the odds high that I will be called in to do something after the 7 years of service are up?

I'm not aware of any IRR calls ups since Sept 11, for docs. this should be reassuring to you.

4. For those of you who are/were military physicians, is there any information regarding beuracracy/politics/rules/etc that you really wish you had known going in? I know very little about the military so I'm trying to get all the advice I can.

Never burn a bridge you don't have to. Provide high quality compassionate care and treat your colleagues with respect. Be an expert in your field and make yourself invaluable to your boss.

5. In regards to keeping up your skills, how practical is it to moonlight on the weekends?

Staff can moonlight so long as the Command agrees. It is a good way to keep up skills and pad the wallet

6. Which specialties does the Army "really need" and which specialties are they "not fond" of? Is it true that if you pick a specialty that isn't sought after by the Army that you will get worse deployments (ie: middle of no where)?

The Army in general treats generalists more poorly than specialists. IM, FP, OB, Peds. They are way more prone to get deployed for a year vs. 6 months, and to have bean counters tracking metrics. Right now, I'm not aware of any specialties that Army "doesn't need or want".


Out.

 

[Mace1370]

Think about this long and hard. USUHS is a very bad idea unless you are very comfortable with the idea of devoting a large chunk of your life to military service. If you are not gung ho about going into the military, you are far better off sitting out this cycle, improving your app, and reapplying for next year.

Assuming you do a four year residency, you will be spending 15 years in the full time military. That is a long time to be working in an environment you do not enjoy. Hair cuts are the least of the culture adjustments.

Don't get me wrong. USUHS is a good school. But if I were to sign a promise to spend 15 years in Nebraska for the sake of going to med school, I'd be damned sure I liked Nebraska first.

I have been thinking long and hard about this, since you're right, it is a huge decision. I know (to the best of my abilities) that I will enjoy the first four years since I very much liked what I saw on the USUHS tour. I also haven't really heard a single negative thing about the school itself.

Also, doesn't it look incredibly bad to turn down a med school acceptance and then apply again? My app is not that strong (undergrad GPA 3.2, MCAT 32Q, SMP GPA 3.7) and I would rather tarnish it with a reason to be rejected in a third application cycle. I really want to be a doctor, and to be perfectly honest I think I would be ok with this decision even if it turns out I don't like the military.

Edit: Also, thanks to everyone else who has replied so far. These responses have been very helpful and informative.

 

[notdeadyet]

I have been thinking long and hard about this, since you're right, it is a huge decision. I know (to the best of my abilities) that I will enjoy the first four years since I very much liked what I saw on the USUHS tour. I also haven't really heard a single negative thing about the school itself.

USUHS is a fine school. I haven't heard any complaints about the education you'd get there in the first four years. It's the 10 years after that you need to keep firmly in mind.

Also, doesn't it look incredibly bad to turn down a med school acceptance and then apply again?

Turning down an acceptance makes it very hard to get accepted to that school again. Schools next cycle will only know if you are accepted if you mention it to them. The only question on the application is if you had matriculated at any other med schools, not if you'd been accepted.

My app is not that strong (undergrad GPA 3.2, MCAT 32Q, SMP GPA 3.7) and I would rather tarnish it with a reason to be rejected in a third application cycle.

Yeah, I understand your concern. There's no crystal ball saying whether you'd have better luck next go-round. That's the rub. But if you didn't have any luck next cycle, it wouldn't be due to turning down an acceptance. The idea of a black book listing past acceptances is very much an SDN rumor.

If you're not convinced about the military, you'd be much better off getting a DO and not being miserable for 10 years than getting an MD and sacrificing a sizable chunk of your life somewhere you'd rather not be.

I really want to be a doctor, and to be perfectly honest I think I would be ok with this decision even if it turns out I don't like the military.

I think you're wrong. Folks have a tough time in the military even if they like it (heck, read the forums a bit here to see what I mean). To commit to 14 years of military service when you think you won't like it is a recipe for a very bad life decision, imho.

If you're really this passionate about being a doctor, you'd be much better rolling the dice for a wide round of applications next cycle with the backup of going osteopathic. And I only say back-up in the sense of an alternate choice. You get a fine education at many osteopathic schools and your scores would get you accepted to most, particularly if you have some life experience.

If you want to go into a primary care type function, USUHS will end up saving you some money, but you'll be serving 14 years for this fact. Osteopathic medicine would not have hampered your civilian career in any way.

If you want to go into a specialty, USUHS will end up costing you potentially hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost wages. Osteopathic medicine will not eliminate any specialty, and will only hamper your options significantly in a small handful of residencies. At the end of the day, you will have all options still open to you with enough talent and hard work.

Again, I'm not knocking USUHS. But you should only swear off this many years of your life if your goal is serving your country. If you are not gung-ho about the military, handing over 20% of your life to them for the sake of not getting an osteopathic-flavored degree is pride going before the fall.

 

[notdeadyet]

And at the end of the day, Mace, this is a better position to be in than sitting with no acceptances. Congrats. You should be proud.

If you end up going USUHS, follow a1qwerty55's advice and others on this forum.

If you end up reapplying, apply very broadly, and not just to schools that you think of as "easy acceptance"; their volume makes them some of the toughest. I got waitlisted at a top 10 med school but didn't get interviews at about half the schools people tried to convince me were safeties. Apply to osteopathic schools, but research them first. Apply to those that are established and carefully look at how they handle their third and fourth years. Having an established network of hospitals you can rotate at is great, having their own hospital is better, and avoid schools in which you pretty much wing it at area hospitals.

Best of luck with your decision and future plans. These are exciting times...

 

[Mace1370]

notyetdead, thanks for all the great feedback. Here's the problems I'm running into:

Yes, if I end up not liking the military I will be unhappy for about 10 years of my life (USUHS is also 4 years of the military, but I think it will be more or less like any other med school).

However, if I turn down USUHS now and apply again and don't get in I don't think I could live with myself. I have failed to accomplish things in the past and they still haunt me. Not becoming a doctor would be with me for the rest of my life. This is my second application cycle, and the amount of stress "not knowing" if I'll get in has made my life pretty miserable. That said, another year of this I guess would be better than 10 years of misery.

On the other hand, I haven't seen anything about the military that makes me think I wouldn't enjoy it there, so it seems to be a very unknown quantity to me. I'm not a "white christian male", but I am white, male, and conservative so I think I will fit in nicely and meet many people who share similar values to my own (just albeit the religious ones). At all the other academic organizations I've attended I've always felt like the odd man out, politically (UCLA, Georgetown). It also seemed like most of the people in the military and USUHS are into physicial fitness like me.

In regards to the DO thing, I don't think it is for me for several reasons (and I guess pride is one of them). My father is also an MD, and while I know it would be silly to completely ignore the DO route just because of him and the rest of my family I just don't see a lot of respect for DOs. A DO came and spoke to us at Georgetown and almost everyone that asked him questions did so in a manner that indicated that they didn't think he was as good as an MD. This particular DO also seemed to have a chip on his shoulder and was out to prove that he was "just as good". I guess this is probably part of the reason why people didn't respect him. While volunteering at a hospital in LA I also met several DOs and the MDs and staff just didn't treat them the same. These are probably just my isolated experiences, but I think it would bother me if I was running into these situations the rest of my life.

Anyways, at this point I don't see any reason why I shouldn't join the military. It isn't that I think I won't like the military. The military is just a very unknown quantity to me and that makes me hesitant to jump in. The major points against it that I have heard are:

1) Higher level officers (sometimes nurses) give you orders you may not agree with. I don't think I would have a problem with this. I've been under some idiot's heel most of my life and have been able to deal with it just fine. It also sounds like this is more a problem in the Navy and AF and I am going into the Army. My father also has plenty of horror stories about the civilian side of things. It may be worse in the military, but politics happen everywhere IMO.

2) Your pay will be worse. Again, I don't really have a problem with this. The pay of a USUHS doctor is not bad, and if I really wanted money I would have gone into accounting or something.

3) Deployments and losing your skills. It sounds like this is the luck of the draw and the only real concern I have. I don't mind traveling around and don't really plan on settling down for a while. This, of course, could change.

Is there anything I'm leaving out?

 

[DrMetal]

Well, the fact that you went to big schools (UCLA/Gtown) means that you have some experience dealing with large bureaucracies, you weren't coddled. That's good,b/c the military is definitely a big bureaucracy and you'll need to fight through some admin sometimes. [I went to Cal before I joined. The "you're-all-on-your-own-so-get-it-done-or-fail" attitudes of the UC schools is brutal. But believe me, it trains you for the real world and has definitely helped in my military career thus far.]

have you ever been in a structured environment, where you've had someone yelling at you, you had to where a uniform? etc etc Something like team sports,with a coach, boy scouts, karate???

It may sound silly, but if you gravitate towards such structured/disciplined environments as a kid or adolescent, then that could mean that you like being such structure, and therefore would like being the military. (Of course, I'm just generalizing here. There's no guarantee that if you played high school football you'll love the Army.)

And the fact that you moved from LA to the Wash DC metro area shows that you're not afraid of leaving home. that's a plus and must quality to be in the military.

 

[Mace1370]

Well, the fact that you went to big schools (UCLA/Gtown) means that you have some experience dealing with large bureaucracies, you weren't coddled. That's good,b/c the military is definitely a big bureaucracy and you'll need to fight through some admin sometimes. [I went to Cal before I joined. The "you're-all-on-your-own-so-get-it-done-or-fail" attitudes of the UC schools is brutal. But believe me, it trains you for the real world and has definitely helped in my military career thus far.]

have you ever been in a structured environment, where you've had someone yelling at you, you had to where a uniform? etc etc Something like team sports,with a coach, boy scouts, karate???

It may sound silly, but if you gravitate towards such structured/disciplined environments as a kid or adolescent, then that could mean that you like being such structure, and therefore would like being the military. (Of course, I'm just generalizing here. There's no guarantee that if you played high school football you'll love the Army.)

And the fact that you moved from LA to the Wash DC metro area shows that you're not afraid of leaving home. that's a plus and must quality to be in the military.

Man, I hated the attitude of the admins at UCLA when I first got there. It was definitely as you described: you're on your own. No one was there to explain any loop-holes to you, no one was there how to explain how to register for different things, etc.

The only team sports I've ever been in were swim team and tennis. Swim team very much had that drill sergeant mentality ("swim X laps, GO GO GO"). We even got volley balls thrown at us if we didn't swim hard enough . I didn't like the experience overall, but for other reasons (jumping into cold water sucks). I did find pride in the fact that I was in a "hardcore" program, though.

 

[mslall]

I didn't like the experience overall, but for other reasons (jumping into cold water sucks). I did find pride in the fact that I was in a "hardcore" program, though.

Easily the worst and best parts of swimming competitively, respectively 👍

the cold water is especially brutal at 0545

 

[DrMetal]

Man, I hated the attitude of the admins at UCLA when I first got there. It was definitely as you described: you're on your own. No one was there to explain any loop-holes to you, no one was there how to explain how to register for different things, etc.

The only team sports I've ever been in were swim team and tennis. Swim team very much had that drill sergeant mentality ("swim X laps, GO GO GO"). We even got volley balls thrown at us if we didn't swim hard enough . I didn't like the experience overall, but for other reasons (jumping into cold water sucks). I did find pride in the fact that I was in a "hardcore" program, though.

well, you're much better suited for the military than say the kid who was home-schooled and went to a small liberal arts college and was hand-walked from class to class. You and him will hit the same wall when you join the military. The key difference is that you'll know how to brace for the impact!

I think you still have some time to decide, right? What's the USUHS deadline, sometime in May? I'd read through all of the threads here, even the negative ones, if you already haven't done so. If you can stomach them, then that's a good sign. Also, there's no substitute for talking to real army docs. So if you're still in the DC area, you're in a great position to look some up. If you're in LA, you might have to travel but it could be well worth it, say getting a cheap flight to San Antonio (could be your future home!).

 

[notdeadyet]

My father is also an MD, and while I know it would be silly to completely ignore the DO route just because of him and the rest of my family I just don't see a lot of respect for DOs.

Folks from Harvard Med might look down their nose at folks from Georgetown who might look down their nose at folks from State U who might look down their nose at folks from DO schools who might look down their nose at folks from Ross/St. George who might look down their nose at folks from other offshore schools... You're going to find that sentiment isn't limited to medicine either.

That said, I never argue the DO point with doctors' kids (I think docs from generations past have a more negative view of DOs). I've never personally seen any anti-bias in a clinical setting because, frankly, only snobs really give a $hit where you did your med school. The only real interest is in where you did residency, and many DOs I've met did allopathic.

The DO vs. MD thing is very much a premed thing. The fact that a bunch of premeds at an expensive school like Georgetown didn't have time for an osteopath probably speaks more about the audience than the industry.

But at the end of the day, some folks only want Armani and trying to convince them that D&G is a good label isn't worth it. It's no crime.

It sounds like your options might be somewhat limited. You aren't interested in the DO path, you have some issues about failure that you want to overcome, and this is your second app cycle with USUHS being the only love you've been shown. Going USUHS makes sense, as there's no guarantee that next year would treat you any better and by most yardstick's admission to med school is only going to get harder.

Best of luck with your decisions and hope the military career is to your liking. You just may find out that it is.

 

[notdeadyet]

2) Your pay will be worse. Again, I don't really have a problem with this. The pay of a USUHS doctor is not bad, and if I really wanted money I would have gone into accounting or something.

If you think the accounting field is big money, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised with milmed salaries. Just don't look at what your civilian counterparts are making.

 

[notdeadyet]

[I went to Cal before I joined. The "you're-all-on-your-own-so-get-it-done-or-fail" attitudes of the UC schools is brutal. But believe me, it trains you for the real world and has definitely helped in my military career thus far.]

In fairness, the cutthroat hands-off vibe you're talking about is not a UC thing. It's very big at Cal and UCLA, and possibly UCSD. But you find better support, smaller class size and closer relationships with faculty at most of the other UCs.

 

[Habeed]

I've had some experiences that have caused me to hate the military. BUT, I wouldn't turn down an acceptance, either. Unless you NEVER plan to go to med school, TAKE IT. Waiting a year is just stupid, especially with the crap shoot and the possibility of not getting in at all next go around.

Your best bet is to try to get into the least 'military-like' branch you can (probably the Air Force, though it also has the most complainers on these boards). And/or : hope that Obama slashes the military budgets in order to free up funds for his social-welfare spending.

 

[DrMetal]

I've had some experiences that have caused me to hate the military. BUT, I wouldn't turn down an acceptance, either. Unless you NEVER plan to go to med school, TAKE IT. Waiting a year is just stupid, especially with the crap shoot and the possibility of not getting in at all next go around.

Your best bet is to try to get into the least 'military-like' branch you can (probably the Air Force, though it also has the most complainers on these boards). And/or : hope that Obama slashes the military budgets in order to free up funds for his social-welfare spending.

What an awful post, that's terrible advice.

I couldn't disagree with this post more. If you truly hate the military, then you've got issues and shouldn't be going into a program (USUHS) that commits you for so long, even if it is the only program you got into. You should re-apply next cycle. If you go there simply b/c it's your only offer, and you really don't want to be in the military, then this is a recipe for disaster.

And I disagree with the notion that you should chose the least 'military-like' branch. First, any branch can place in the middle of a war; try asking the AF folks at Bagram AFB if they 'feel' like they're in the military. Or try asking folks deployed on a big deck in the NAG for 4 months if they feel like they're in the military. You bet your sweet ***** they feel like they're in the military.

And Obama isn't going to cut anything. He's no dummy. We're fighting two wars. We may even see an increase in DOD spending.

 

[mslall]

haha, the 'least military-like' branch? what is that? The Transportation Safety Administration? can you join that?

 

[Kishkinde]

Folks from Harvard Med might look down their nose at folks from Georgetown who might look down their nose at folks from State U who might look down their nose at folks from DO schools who might look down their nose at folks from Ross/St. George who might look down their nose at folks from other offshore schools... You're going to find that sentiment isn't limited to medicine either.

That said, I never argue the DO point with doctors' kids (I think docs from generations past have a more negative view of DOs). I've never personally seen any anti-bias in a clinical setting because, frankly, only snobs really give a $hit where you did your med school. The only real interest is in where you did residency, and many DOs I've met did allopathic.

The DO vs. MD thing is very much a premed thing. The fact that a bunch of premeds at an expensive school like Georgetown didn't have time for an osteopath probably speaks more about the audience than the industry.

But at the end of the day, some folks only want Armani and trying to convince them that D&G is a good label isn't worth it. It's no crime.

It sounds like your options might be somewhat limited. You aren't interested in the DO path, you have some issues about failure that you want to overcome, and this is your second app cycle with USUHS being the only love you've been shown. Going USUHS makes sense, as there's no guarantee that next year would treat you any better and by most yardstick's admission to med school is only going to get harder.

Best of luck with your decisions and hope the military career is to your liking. You just may find out that it is.

Well said. Much respect.

 

[Mace1370]

Thanks for all of the amazing feedback, everyone. I would have replied sooner, but I had a huge test (GI gross anatomy is rubbish).

 

[rkaz]

Hello, as someone else who knows little about military lifestyle, I have a question as well. I will be calling up a recruiter tomorrow whose title is CPT XXXX... let's say, for example, CPT John Doe. When I call him, do I need to refer to him as 'Captain John' or just call him by his first name, 'John'? Or do I refer to him by his title and last name, like 'Captain Doe'? Calling someone 'captain' or 'lieutenant' etc, sounds kinda strange to me, but then what do I know...

 

[Kishkinde]

I had the exact question in my mind, before I talked to my recruiter. My recruiter's name in the e-mail was Officer Harold. He introduced himself in the email as Harry Harold. And he said that to call him Harry and that it would be easier this way. When I started to speak to him on the phone I would just address him as Harry as well. I also had a petty officer that was handling my paperwork and his introduction e-mail was please just call me by first name. So I would perhaps introduce yourself first and wait for your recruiter to introduce themself. It seems like they will let you know how they would like to be addressed.

If not you can't go wrong with just a plain and simple Hello Sir.

Hope that helps.

 

[notdeadyet]

Hello, as someone else who knows little about military lifestyle, I have a question as well. I will be calling up a recruiter tomorrow whose title is CPT XXXX... let's say, for example, CPT John Doe. When I call him, do I need to refer to him as 'Captain John' or just call him by his first name, 'John'? Or do I refer to him by his title and last name, like 'Captain Doe'?

Call him Captain Doe until he tells you otherwise. Whether you're in the military or not, the man is in the military and has the rank of Captain.

I'm not Protestant, but if I meed someone who is a Lutheran pastor, I'll call him Pastor Doe out of respect even though it's not my faith. Calling him Mr. Doe would be rude.

Go with CPT Doe. He may ask you to call him John, but wait for him to do so.

 

[SirGecko]

Hello, as someone else who knows little about military lifestyle, I have a question as well. I will be calling up a recruiter tomorrow whose title is CPT XXXX... let's say, for example, CPT John Doe. When I call him, do I need to refer to him as 'Captain John' or just call him by his first name, 'John'? Or do I refer to him by his title and last name, like 'Captain Doe'? Calling someone 'captain' or 'lieutenant' etc, sounds kinda strange to me, but then what do I know...

You call him Captain Doe. If you were already in the military you would call him "Sir" unless he isn't higher ranking than you. You wouldn't be wrong to say "sir" to officers as a civilian either though. Same goes for enlisted personnel minus the "Sir" and "Ma'am" part. When you address a chief for example its Chief Last Name. When you know them you can sometimes get away with stuff like calling a Gunnery Sergeant "Gunny" but you shouldn't default to it.

 

[haujun]

notyetdead, thanks for all the great feedback. Here's the problems I'm running into:

Yes, if I end up not liking the military I will be unhappy for about 10 years of my life (USUHS is also 4 years of the military, but I think it will be more or less like any other med school).

However, if I turn down USUHS now and apply again and don't get in I don't think I could live with myself. I have failed to accomplish things in the past and they still haunt me. Not becoming a doctor would be with me for the rest of my life. This is my second application cycle, and the amount of stress "not knowing" if I'll get in has made my life pretty miserable. That said, another year of this I guess would be better than 10 years of misery.

On the other hand, I haven't seen anything about the military that makes me think I wouldn't enjoy it there, so it seems to be a very unknown quantity to me. I'm not a "white christian male", but I am white, male, and conservative so I think I will fit in nicely and meet many people who share similar values to my own (just albeit the religious ones). At all the other academic organizations I've attended I've always felt like the odd man out, politically (UCLA, Georgetown). It also seemed like most of the people in the military and USUHS are into physicial fitness like me.

In regards to the DO thing, I don't think it is for me for several reasons (and I guess pride is one of them). My father is also an MD, and while I know it would be silly to completely ignore the DO route just because of him and the rest of my family I just don't see a lot of respect for DOs. A DO came and spoke to us at Georgetown and almost everyone that asked him questions did so in a manner that indicated that they didn't think he was as good as an MD. This particular DO also seemed to have a chip on his shoulder and was out to prove that he was "just as good". I guess this is probably part of the reason why people didn't respect him. While volunteering at a hospital in LA I also met several DOs and the MDs and staff just didn't treat them the same. These are probably just my isolated experiences, but I think it would bother me if I was running into these situations the rest of my life.

Anyways, at this point I don't see any reason why I shouldn't join the military. It isn't that I think I won't like the military. The military is just a very unknown quantity to me and that makes me hesitant to jump in. The major points against it that I have heard are:

1) Higher level officers (sometimes nurses) give you orders you may not agree with. I don't think I would have a problem with this. I've been under some idiot's heel most of my life and have been able to deal with it just fine. It also sounds like this is more a problem in the Navy and AF and I am going into the Army. My father also has plenty of horror stories about the civilian side of things. It may be worse in the military, but politics happen everywhere IMO.

2) Your pay will be worse. Again, I don't really have a problem with this. The pay of a USUHS doctor is not bad, and if I really wanted money I would have gone into accounting or something.

3) Deployments and losing your skills. It sounds like this is the luck of the draw and the only real concern I have. I don't mind traveling around and don't really plan on settling down for a while. This, of course, could change.

Is there anything I'm leaving out?

Welcome to the military forum. You post seem to address several main questions in the studentdoctor forum. Feel free to read about pro vs cons of military medicine as well DO vs MD. Spent some time ponder about why you applied to USUHS and I imagine that they asked you the similar question during the interview process: "why you applied for USUHS?" Think about your answer. Contact several active duty military physicians who went to USUHS as well to obtain most uptodate info. Some rebuff for you above assertions:

1) You should have a problem with nurse or anyone else who has problem with your order esp if you believe that it is right for your patient whether you are in the military or not.

2) You wife might have a problem with this (low pay) as you will likely get married during the service 😀. Also you may "develop" problem about the fact that military pay has nothing to do with your productivity.

3) Yes, you will travel (esp when you are least ready)...but military expect more. You are expected to give your life away to protect others.


PM with any questions you may have.