Racial Advantage/Disadvantage

[Jarteblu]

So I have many questions; I just did some statistical stuff with the LizzyM and need some answers.
1. Why do Asians have a harder time getting into medical school. I looked and there were soooo many Asian applicants. Why are there so many?(Most of their stats were pretty high)

2. I looked through Black applicants' data and say that a black applicant with a GPA of 3.44 and a MCAT of 25 has a 67% chance of getting in. And black applicants with a 3.7 GPA and a MCAT of 26 have a 79% chance. Why is it easier for them to get into medical school? (I'm totally ok with it tho since I'm part of that pool )

3. Why is it easier/harder for some races to get into medical school? I assume so the school is diverse and it fills all the legal requirement of minorities. Even if I am right, Could someone shed some more light on this since I don't know much about this.

4. Do you know the percentage of applicants and matriculants by race of some schools for example or the total of all applicants in the nation?

Any other valuable pieces of information would be appreciated, Thanks mon

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[MDProspect]

 

[sdhere1234]

oh god

 

[gyngyn]

1. A disproportionate number of Asian applicants reside in unfavorable states.
2. There is a large unmet need for physicians in black communities and there are 3 mission-based schools that do their best to address this disparity.
3. Each school has the obligation to identify communities that are underserved and recruit members of that community to address this unmet need.
4. The MSAR provides reliable data on each school in the demographics tab. There are national data on applicants and matriculants here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/

 

[Cotterpin]

1. A disproportionate number of Asian applicants reside in unfavorable states.
2. There is a large unmet need for physicians in black communities and there are 3 mission-based schools that do their best to address this disparity.
3. Each school has the obligation to identify communities that are underserved and recruit members of that community to address this unmet need.
4. The MSAR provides reliable data on each school in the demographics tab. There are national data on applicants and matriculants here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/

This should be stickied.

 

[LivMoore]

 

[LizzyM]

There is a GPA and MCAT that indicates that the candidate has a very good (95%) chance of successfully completing medical school. I'd estimate these to be roughly 3.45 and 25 (500 under the new system). There are far more candidates with those scores (or higher) than there are seats. Great grades and scores are not enough; schools want to educate a diverse student body and pump out a diverse workforce of physicians to serve the needs of the US population (or a specific local population). So, schools will take the best students they can get to meet their goals and who have, at the very least, the academic horsepower to complete their studies successfully.

Also, keep in mind that, as a population, Blacks in the US are of lower income than Whites and access to education in the US is very much determined by school system which is most often based on where you live which is dictated by wealth/income. Kids in poor families end up in school districts with a paucity of resources, poorly trained teachers, overcrowded classrooms whereas more affluent districts have more resources, attract more highly trained teachers and have smaller classes and a greater variety of course offerings. It adds up year after year and sets some kids back enormously. That can contribute, I think, to the poorer (but yet adequate) performance in college courses and on high stakes exams such as MCAT.

Median income by race in the US. It it weren't labeled, you might think it was median MCAT by race.
http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-median-income-in-the-us-by-race-2013-9

 

[Jarteblu]

So I assume residency has the same circumstances, right?

 

[libertyyne]

1. A disproportionate number of Asian applicants reside in unfavorable states.
2. There is a large unmet need for physicians in black communities and there are 3 mission-based schools that do their best to address this disparity.
3. Each school has the obligation to identify communities that are underserved and recruit members of that community to address this unmet need.
4. The MSAR provides reliable data on each school in the demographics tab. There are national data on applicants and matriculants here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/

There are more Asians applying to medical school in California then White people.

 

[Goro]

Also keep in mind that as a percentage of the US population, Asians are vastly over-represented in med school classes. The typical MD school is~30% South or East Asian (and about 40% at my DO school). Even at the HBCs, they make up 10% of the class! Asians are ~4-5% of the US population.

To follow up on the wise gyngyn's point #2, there are medical outcomes riding on this.

 

[vellez]

A lot of factors go into play when it comes to who will succeed in medical school and who will succeed as a doctor. It is totally unfair for Asians to be summarily rejected because of their race, but if you are Asian, have a 4.0, a 35 MCAT and 12 years of cello lessons, that's not very unique. You need to do things to set your self apart.

 

[LizzyM]

A lot of factors go into play when it comes to who will succeed in medical school and who will succeed as a doctor. It is totally unfair for Asians to be summarily rejected because of their race, but if you are Asian, have a 4.0, a 35 MCAT and 12 years of cello lessons, that's not very unique. You need to do things to set your self apart.

Given that the proportion of medical students who are Asian (~20%) is vastly higher than the proportion of 20-24 year olds in the US who are Asian (7.5%), it can hardly be argued that Asians are being rejected because of their race.

 

[vellez]

Given that the proportion of medical students who are Asian (~20%) is vastly higher than the proportion of 20-24 year olds in the US who are Asian (7.5%), it can hardly be argued that Asians are being rejected because of their race.

Exactly. I meant that if an Asian person had the same app as a black person and the Asian person was rejected, that would be unfair. Of course, this is hypothetical and probably uncommon anyway.

 

[LizzyM]

Exactly. I meant that if an Asian person had the same app as a black person and the Asian person was rejected, that would be unfair. Of course, this is hypothetical and probably uncommon anyway.

No two people have the same application. At the very least, they have different experiences. Both can have the same academic qualifications and be equally qualified academically but the other experiences they bring to the table are going to be different and one may be more rare than the other and bring variety to the mix. If you are making a tossed salad you could make it with just lettuce and tomatoes and it would be good but it might be better to have some peppers, too. You could say, "this tomato is just as fresh and ripe as that pepper and it would be unfair to choose the pepper rather that another tomato." But can't you see the value of having a variety including lettuce, tomato and peppers?

 

[OchemOficionado]

Given that the proportion of medical students who are Asian (~20%) is vastly higher than the proportion of 20-24 year olds in the US who are Asian (7.5%), it can hardly be argued that Asians are being rejected because of their race.

LizzyM, you are da real MVP!

Off topic, I received an email recently from [email protected] and about died. I'm 50% sure it wasn't from you

 

[libertyyne]

No two people have the same application. At the very least, they have different experiences. Both can have the same academic qualifications and be equally qualified academically but the other experiences they bring to the table are going to be different and one may be more rare than the other and bring variety to the mix. If you are making a tossed salad you could make it with just lettuce and tomatoes and it would be good but it might be better to have some peppers, too. You could say, "this tomato is just as fresh and ripe as that pepper and it would be unfair to choose the pepper rather that another tomato." But can't you see the value of having a variety including lettuce, tomato and peppers?

Now I am hungry.

 

[meddesire]

No two people have the same application. At the very least, they have different experiences. Both can have the same academic qualifications and be equally qualified academically but the other experiences they bring to the table are going to be different and one may be more rare than the other and bring variety to the mix. If you are making a tossed salad you could make it with just lettuce and tomatoes and it would be good but it might be better to have some peppers, too. You could say, "this tomato is just as fresh and ripe as that pepper and it would be unfair to choose the pepper rather that another tomato." But can't you see the value of having a variety including lettuce, tomato and peppers?

So for 2 two people with the same race, one has a higher stats while another has a more unique experience and demographics...which one is more favorable? I'm trying to think how they can use the table in the file below to compare between 2 applicants?
And also, how can they rank the academic metrics in this table? I mean how many points for each (gpa vs. mcat vs. grade trend vs. etc)?

 

[787593]

So I have many questions; I just did some statistical stuff with the LizzyM and need some answers.
1. Why do Asians have a harder time getting into medical school. I looked and there were soooo many Asian applicants. Why are there so many?(Most of their stats were pretty high)

2. I looked through Black applicants' data and say that a black applicant with a GPA of 3.44 and a MCAT of 25 has a 67% chance of getting in. And black applicants with a 3.7 GPA and a MCAT of 26 have a 79% chance. Why is it easier for them to get into medical school? (I'm totally ok with it tho since I'm part of that pool )

3. Why is it easier/harder for some races to get into medical school? I assume so the school is diverse and it fills all the legal requirement of minorities. Even if I am right, Could someone shed some more light on this since I don't know much about this.

4. Do you know the percentage of applicants and matriculants by race of some schools for example or the total of all applicants in the nation?

Any other valuable pieces of information would be appreciated, Thanks mon

 

[LizzyM]

LizzyM, you are da real MVP!

Off topic, I received an email recently from [email protected] and about died. I'm 50% sure it wasn't from you

LOL! My email address is NOT [email protected]! That would be pretty funny. I actually took my screen name from a relative but her email isn't LizzyM either.

So for 2 two people with the same race, one has a higher stats while another has a more unique experience and demographics...which one is more favorable? I'm trying to think how they can use the table in the file below to compare between 2 applicants?
And also, how can they rank the academic metrics in this table? I mean how many points for each (gpa vs. mcat vs. grade trend vs. etc)?

That table was created by asking admissions deans "on a scale of 1 to X, how important is each of the following in making admission decisions". You can see that GPA and MCAT are among the most important academic items and completion of challenging non-science courses is considered less important. That said, health care experience is important, too. State residence is also a very important factor at some public schools. Two applicants are seldom compared head to head. Rather it is:

Jake North. 3.6/516, involved in a campus fundraiser for children with cancer, not much clinical exposure before college graduation, just began working as a scribe in June, great letter of recommendation from his research mentor. Came across in the interview as somewhat aloof and was not easy to engage with according to one reviewer, the other reviewer found him to be very bright and enthusiastic in describing his research. Not a bad candidate but there may be others who are better. Waitlist.

Next is Josh Lee. 3.5/514, worked two summers as a patient care technician, first in a nursing home and then in a hospital. Very involved on-campus in organizing bone marrow donor events and blood drive. Interest in medicine driven by his twin sister who survived childhood cancer. Brief research experience for credit in Junior year. Described by interviewers as warm, curious, enthusiastic with a deep sense of purpose. Admit.

 

[zurc2014]

So I have many questions; I just did some statistical stuff with the LizzyM and need some answers.
1. Why do Asians have a harder time getting into medical school. I looked and there were soooo many Asian applicants. Why are there so many?(Most of their stats were pretty high)

2. I looked through Black applicants' data and say that a black applicant with a GPA of 3.44 and a MCAT of 25 has a 67% chance of getting in. And black applicants with a 3.7 GPA and a MCAT of 26 have a 79% chance. Why is it easier for them to get into medical school? (I'm totally ok with it tho since I'm part of that pool )

3. Why is it easier/harder for some races to get into medical school? I assume so the school is diverse and it fills all the legal requirement of minorities. Even if I am right, Could someone shed some more light on this since I don't know much about this.

4. Do you know the percentage of applicants and matriculants by race of some schools for example or the total of all applicants in the nation?

Any other valuable pieces of information would be appreciated, Thanks mon

You're sure you're AA? Growing up in my area and going thru this process, I can easily see why many of us are not in med skool. Adding diversity is pretty straight forward as well. Use you're brain bro, this not hard to understand at all.

 

[WildWing]

Obligatory SDN Application plug: The SDN Application Assistant lets you check out applicant and acceptance information from the AAMC FACTS tables and compare it to your own scores. It's free! Here's the link.

http://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score?reload=1&r=1476925556217

 

[txmedskool]

1. A disproportionate number of Asian applicants reside in unfavorable states.
2. There is a large unmet need for physicians in black communities and there are 3 mission-based schools that do their best to address this disparity.
3. Each school has the obligation to identify communities that are underserved and recruit members of that community to address this unmet need.
4. The MSAR provides reliable data on each school in the demographics tab. There are national data on applicants and matriculants here: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/

I am curious to know which states are favorable for Asian applicants.

 

[Lawpy]

Obligatory SDN Application plug: The SDN Application Assistant lets you check out applicant and acceptance information from the AAMC FACTS tables and compare it to your own scores. It's free! Here's the link.

http://schools.studentdoctor.net/lizzym_score?reload=1&r=1476925556217

Has the SDN list of medical schools been updated with current GPA and MCAT data?

http://schools.studentdoctor.net/

And how are SDN School Rankings calculated?

 

[gyngyn]

I am curious to know which states are favorable for Asian applicants.

The ones with a high IS matriculation percentage.
https://www.aamc.org/download/321466/data/factstablea5.pdf

 

[libertyyne]

The ones with a high IS matriculation percentage.

Anywhere but Cali.

 

[gyngyn]

Anywhere but Cali.

or Maryland, WA, UT, CO, AZ...

 

[cke11]

I have a question and this sort of off topic, but I understand that people of Middle Eastern descent check White for race. Unfortunately, I do not look white at all (actually look Mexican and have been confused as a native while in Mexico). Do people that don't "look" like their race just check other? That's what I'm planning on doing.

 

[gyngyn]

I have a question and this sort of off topic, but I understand that people of Middle Eastern descent check White for race. Unfortunately, I do not look white at all (actually look Mexican and have been confused as a native while in Mexico). Do people that don't "look" like their race just check other? That's what I'm planning on doing.

Other is fine.

 

[libertyyne]

I have a question and this sort of off topic, but I understand that people of Middle Eastern descent check White for race. Unfortunately, I do not look white at all (actually look Mexican and have been confused as a native while in Mexico). Do people that don't "look" like their race just check other? That's what I'm planning on doing.

Why on earth would you do that? Just click the refuse to answer. Do you not think that your name will give it away ? Or your experiences? Or your parents names?

 

[cke11]

Why on earth would you do that? Just click the refuse to answer. Do you not think that your name will give it away ? Or your experiences? Or your parents names?

I don't have a problem with checking the white box, but I just don't look white at all. Just looking at my name gives nothing away... you seem a little hostile lol

 

[libertyyne]

I don't have a problem with checking the white box, but I just don't look white at all. Just looking at my name gives nothing away... you seem a little hostile lol

Sorry. DIdnt mean to come off as hostile. I confused it with applicants who are asian trying to be not asian by checking a different box.

 

[darkstars]

So I assume residency has the same circumstances, right?

Honestly we'll never know since the NRMP won't release that data. You can go on this thread about it here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/thr...-ethnicity-when-applying-to-residency.999418/ but basically no one knows and no one should give a ****. There are anecdotal accounts and a good example would be that males tend to have an easier time than females applying for Ob/Gyn positions and vice versa for Ortho (and probably a lot of surgical/sub-surgical specialties). Some residencies do want/try to have a diverse group (while trying to maintain the same academic caliber) and others don't care and just look at academics alone. The difference is you (hopefully) mature enough to not care and just work hard/do your best without giving a **** the step score the person next to you has during interview day.

 

[Goro]

Tell it to the US Census Dep't. They consider Arabs and other Middle Easterners as Caucasian. So do geneticists.

I don't have a problem with checking the white box, but I just don't look white at all. Just looking at my name gives nothing away... you seem a little hostile lol

 

[deforestasian]

I guess here is as good as any place to ask since I've been wondering this forever...I'm half asian, half white, and I've always wondered how that is viewed? Meaning, is it that mixed people are viewed merely as mixed, or as non-white, or other? (I've always looked at those percentages and not known how to interpret them for my own identity!)

 

[gyngyn]

I guess here is as good as any place to ask since I've been wondering this forever...I'm half asian, half white, and I've always wondered how that is viewed? Meaning, is it that mixed people are viewed merely as mixed, or as non-white, or other? (I've always looked at those percentages and not known how to interpret them for my own identity!)

Put: either, both, other, mixed race or decline to respond. No one will mind.

 

[WildWing]

@Lawper In response to your questions: We aim to update the GPA/MCAT information annually. A large number were updated summer 2015. We did some additional updates from schools this spring and continue to update information on an ongoing basis.

SDN Rankings are proprietary but are based on how members rate a school compared to other medical schools.