Racial Attrition in Medical Schools, Food for thought

[Cirrus83]

Where in my post did I imply racism? What is up with all the defense on the thread? FYI, sample size is the biggest source of flawed conclusions in stats. Like someone else pointed out, does this also mean whites are better suited for medschool than asians?

My racism thing was directed at various people, with the skewed sample size comment directed towards you.

The sample size is not small and would not lead to flaws, which was the main point of my post, which you seem to conveniently ignore in this post.

Furthermore, your reply to my post pretty clearly implies racism (the whites are better suited for med school than asians question seems to imply that believing in these stats would mean you'd have to believe something racist like that). Actually if you want to know what I believe, I believe that more Asian people are pressured into the medical field by their family, causing them to realize that they're miserable and bomb out. But then again the numbers are so close between asians and whites that it doesn't even matter.

On the other hand, as I pointed out, more African-American dropped out in total than whites in 1995, regardless of percentage, so how you could possibly twist this into a sample size issue is beyond me.

What's up with the defense in this thread? I'm just defending a study against baseless attacks on it's sample size. If you're going to attack it, at least attack something that's actually weak, instead of randomly throwing out something that is supposedly "the biggest source of flawed conclusions in stats" when it does not apply to this study at all. Understanding statistics helps you find the bad studies, but it also helps you realize when a study is perfectly legit, so there's no reason for you to start attacking a study for a flaw it doesn't have.

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[Cirrus83]

Although the racism present in many of the post does not merit recognition, It is a horrible thing to know that people like Martin Luther King, Jr gave his life so that people would be judged by the content of their character and not by the color of there skin.

Umm...I'm fairly certain that not being judged by the color of your skin would actually mean not giving preference to someone based on the color of their skin. Basing it on the content of their character would require us to be race-blind. Just found your use of Dr. King's phrase kind of ironic since the rest of your post clearly seems to support the use of race based AA...

If you're going to support AA, don't quote Dr. King's I have a dream speech, because that speech was definitely not about AA.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

Hey good job there...... quite flattering, amusing and entertaining all at once.... keeping workin on that stand-up material, u never know when its gonna come in handy... like when it's time to get a real job...

Pffft don't be flattered - that was my B game, you're not even worth my A material. I save that for the REAL trolls like Christian15213, whenever he peeks out from whatever rock he's been hiding under.

At least I got my point across, someone "braved" all the "CAPS" and read it and suprisingly came out unscathed. Yes, welcome to the real world where people never yell or write in "CAPS" how offensive... the HYPOCRISY here is asphyxiating.....

"So" is "the" stench of "yo" bullsh**.

The real subject here of "perceived/misguided/unfounded superiority/inferiority complex" has been sufficiently examined and debunked.... It nothing more than neo-eugenics/nazism/white supremacisim... The line of thought has no place in the 21st century and those of you out there clinking to it - like how a drowning man grasps at everything and nothing - are truly an endangered species!!! The nation is moving very fast past your ignorance, intolerance and insecurity.

GODWIN'S LAW!

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

What! Who let you in Stony Brook Eternal Rage? Now I can't apply there anyone...

Mr. Tumnus (who apparently now has AIDS) led me there. I met the White Witch and I went under her dress and ate her Turkish Delights.

 

[baylormed]

Mr. Tumnus (who apparently now has AIDS) led me there. I met the White Witch and I went under her dress and ate her Turkish Delights.

Ah...bad mistake. Didn't you read the book? The White Witch is baaaaaaaaaaaaad.

 

[BigRedPremed]

Shouldn't the AAMC be held responsible for setting some people up to fail? AA is a disservice to minority applicants because it puts them in schools with higher achieving students thus setting them up to fail because they can't compete at that level. They could have gone to a much less competitive medical school (UIC instead of Northwestern for example) on their own and passed or gone into medicine in a less competitive career path like Nursing or Dentistry. The other alternative is to push under-achieving students of all races through the system and transfer the problem of unprepared physicians onto the patients. Pushing unprepared students through school with misleading pass/fail grading systems is especially dangerous to patients and specifically stigmatizes minority doctors as not as capable of delivering quality care to patients. Medical schools leave minority students out to dry by passing them through the system in the name of "diversity," leaving them less prepared than White or Asian students, thus confirming the stereotypes of the public. Racial diversity just for the sake of it through AA is, to use a Bush quote, indicative of "the soft bigotry of low expectations."

You're preaching to the choir, dude. I simply stated the goal of the AAMC. I didn't say affirmative action was a good way of achieving that goal. In fact, considering the fact that I'm anti-AA, I do not believe affirmative action is the most effective way of increasing the number of competent minority physicians for some of the reasons you have stated.

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

You're preaching to the choir, dude. I simply stated the goal of the AAMC. I didn't say affirmative action was a good way of achieving that goal. In fact, considering the fact that I'm anti-AA, I do not believe affirmative action is the most effective way of increasing the number of competent minority physicians for some of the reasons you have stated.

GREAT!!! my question is how do we decrease the number of URM physicians and med. students??Which med schools have the least URMS??? Which medical school has the most whites??? Do I have to expatriate to Europe to go to a medical school with all whites???

 

[Newton Bohr MD]

I think that his point is clear. Blacks and Hispanics are more stupid than Whites and Asians. I thought we all new this. This isn't news. Don't feed the troll.

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh DoctaJay is speaking American... I speak that language

 

[HumbleMD]

Is anyone even listening to this guy? (If so, please stop now). He has Kramer as his avatar for heaven's sake...

 

[RNtoMD2011]

You mean like Vietnamese people with the disadvantage of having come from a wartorn country? Or how about the Chinese parents who escaped from working the fields during the Cultural Revolution? Or how about the continued social or economic disparity between Asians of Japanese, Chinese and Korean ethnicity and the other lumped in Asians like filipinos, laotians, cambodians, malaysians, indonesians? Or how about the social disparity between heterosexuals visiting their loved ones in a hospital, and gay americans not always being granted the same advantages, tax protections? Or how about the disadvantage of Transexual Americans who have often said that they are in fear of their lives in any non-metropolitan American city? WE STILL HAVE TEENAGERS KILLING THEMSELVES IN THIS COUNTRY BECAUSE OF POLICIES AFFECTING PEOPLE OF DIFFERENT SEXUALITY, let alone them doing well in school and become doctors. Or how about the white Americans who came from communist eastern europe and struggled for years with low education and poor grasp of the language? Or how about the descendents of Jewish people who weren't just spit upon, but faced CENTURIES of persecution in Europe culminating in a mass program to make them extinct? Its amazing that one as educated as yourself does not see that other races, ethnic groups, religious minorities have faced DECADES of persecution that has also probably given them a disadvantage.



My forefathers didn't steal anything by force from Native Americans, Hispanics of African Americans. I think they spent their time building railroads. Well except they're not my forefathers because American policies also forbid them from having their wives move to the country.



Actually I do that too. I do know a handful of that too that got in for other reasons. And please don't assume all Asians and Whites are rich, that's a bit racist.

I did not mean to imply that all Asians and whites are rich. And the forefathers of this country did steal, whethor you acknowledge it or not.

I do however agree that many groups are persecuted and disadvantaged in this country. My point was that instead of arguing and dividing we should be demanding equal treatment regardless of race. Taking socio economic history into account should be done regardless. When our system only does it for a group of people based on race it only promotes division. The same way that the advantage of socioeconomics promotes division.

 

[RNtoMD2011]

Umm...I'm fairly certain that not being judged by the color of your skin would actually mean not giving preference to someone based on the color of their skin. Basing it on the content of their character would require us to be race-blind. Just found your use of Dr. King's phrase kind of ironic since the rest of your post clearly seems to support the use of race based AA...

If you're going to support AA, don't quote Dr. King's I have a dream speech, because that speech was definitely not about AA.

I understand exactly what the speech is aboutn
May be you did not get my point. The point is in support of Affirmative action, yet not based on race. Based on the fact that since we live in a capitalist society and some are more advantages, Medical and professional schools should take disadvantaged backgrounds into account when considering admissions. If they don't, unfortunately, in this country disadvantaged applicatants will be locked out of the American dream. This would affect every race of people, but none as drastic as it would affect Blacks and Hispanics.

 

[psipsina]

I understand exactly what the speech is aboutn
May be you did not get my point. The point is in support of Affirmative action, yet not based on race. Based on the fact that since we live in a capitalist society and some are more advantages, Medical and professional schools should take disadvantaged backgrounds into account when considering admissions. If they don't, unfortunately, in this country disadvantaged applicatants will be locked out of the American dream. This would affect every race of people, but none as drastic as it would affect Blacks and Hispanics.

They do take disadvantaged status into account. You can check a little box on AMCAS.

 

[Tired]

Just a few questions for those who are still interested in the thread:

Actually, let me completely ignore your points and ask you a couple questions.

Why did you choose a screen name and avatar of a stereotyped Black drug addict?

Do you understand how this choice (regardless of whether you are Black, White, or Other) makes you very difficult to take seriously on this subject?

 

[Haemulon]

Woo hoo! Here is a random post of love:

 

[neom3x11]

-

 

[Haemulon]

Me too. Lets have some Spam:

 

[Tyronebiggums]

Actually, let me completely ignore your points and ask you a couple questions.

Why did you choose a screen name and avatar of a stereotyped Black drug addict?

Do you understand how this choice (regardless of whether you are Black, White, or Other) makes you very difficult to take seriously on this subject?

You should judge me on the content of my words, not on the avatar associated with those words. So far nobody on this thread has formulated any counter-arguments to my assertions. People have cast doubt on some of my points but they have no stated the reasons for their doubt. Personal attacks are much easier to execute that reasoned, logical arguments. People make personal attacks because arguments against AA allow them to assert that they are morally superior because they support AA. Remember you can be "pro-minority" or "pro-upward mobility" while being against AA. My main point is that AA brings a stigma with it. When people hear the words they think "unqualified people getting into school who wouldn't otherwise" regardless of whether or not that is actually true. Most people logically think that if you could get in on your own merit you wouldn't need AA, ergo, the people that AA singles out to help can't get in on their own merit. Do we really need this stigma when minority applicants on average are competitive at most DO schools but not MD schools unless AA exists? AA exists so medical schools can pat themselves on the back for helping "break down barriers" and make their schools look good. Frederick Douglass, for example, was strongly against any special treatment or entitlement programs for freed slaves yet nobody on this thread would dare attack his views. I am merely making a similar argument about AA and people are attacking me most likely because I am white and therefore in no position to say what should be done with non-white applicants. My arguments are legitimate concerns shared by many people, minorities included.

 

[EndSong]

I understand exactly what the speech is aboutn
May be you did not get my point. The point is in support of Affirmative action, yet not based on race. Based on the fact that since we live in a capitalist society and some are more advantages, Medical and professional schools should take disadvantaged backgrounds into account when considering admissions. If they don't, unfortunately, in this country disadvantaged applicatants will be locked out of the American dream. This would affect every race of people, but none as drastic as it would affect Blacks and Hispanics.

They already do this. They also consider Black, Hispanic and Native American as a special category in of itself. Sounds like you're arguing to get rid of AA since it causes even more divisiveness?

 

[sirus_virus]

You should judge me on the content of my words, not on the avatar associated with those words. So far nobody on this thread has formulated any counter-arguments to my assertions. People have cast doubt on some of my points but they have no stated the reasons for their doubt. Personal attacks are much easier to execute that reasoned, logical arguments. People make personal attacks because arguments against AA allow them to assert that they are morally superior because they support AA. Remember you can be "pro-minority" or "pro-upward mobility" while being against AA. My main point is that AA brings a stigma with it. When people hear the words they think "unqualified people getting into school who wouldn't otherwise" regardless of whether or not that is actually true. Most people logically think that if you could get in on your own merit you wouldn't need AA, ergo, the people that AA singles out to help can't get in on their own merit. Do we really need this stigma when minority applicants on average are competitive at most DO schools but not MD schools unless AA exists? AA exists so medical schools can pat themselves on the back for helping "break down barriers" and make their schools look good. Frederick Douglass, for example, was strongly against any special treatment or entitlement programs for freed slaves yet nobody on this thread would dare attack his views. I am merely making a similar argument about AA and people are attacking me most likely because I am white and therefore in no position to say what should be done with non-white applicants. My arguments are legitimate concerns shared by many people, minorities included.

Because nobody cares.

 

[IceMan0824]

Mr. Tumnus (who apparently now has AIDS) led me there. I met the White Witch and I went under her dress and ate her Turkish Delights.

If I say I know you, will they give me special consideration there? Can you talk me up with the adcomms?

Wait....err...What was the point to this thread again?

 

[IceMan0824]

Is anyone even listening to this guy? (If so, please stop now). He has Kramer as his avatar for heaven's sake...

He now has Bill O' Reilly for an avatar. Always one step ahead of you Humble....

 

[IceMan0824]

Actually, let me completely ignore your points and ask you a couple questions.

Why did you choose a screen name and avatar of a stereotyped Black drug addict?

Do you understand how this choice (regardless of whether you are Black, White, or Other) makes you very difficult to take seriously on this subject?

Tired is here...this is now going to get interesting. Next, we need DKM and Panda...and maybe IceMan...wait, I'm already here. So confused.

 

[IceMan0824]

You should judge me on the content of my words, not on the avatar associated with those words. So far nobody on this thread has formulated any counter-arguments to my assertions. People have cast doubt on some of my points but they have no stated the reasons for their doubt. Personal attacks are much easier to execute that reasoned, logical arguments. People make personal attacks because arguments against AA allow them to assert that they are morally superior because they support AA. Remember you can be "pro-minority" or "pro-upward mobility" while being against AA. My main point is that AA brings a stigma with it. When people hear the words they think "unqualified people getting into school who wouldn't otherwise" regardless of whether or not that is actually true. Most people logically think that if you could get in on your own merit you wouldn't need AA, ergo, the people that AA singles out to help can't get in on their own merit. Do we really need this stigma when minority applicants on average are competitive at most DO schools but not MD schools unless AA exists? AA exists so medical schools can pat themselves on the back for helping "break down barriers" and make their schools look good. Frederick Douglass, for example, was strongly against any special treatment or entitlement programs for freed slaves yet nobody on this thread would dare attack his views. I am merely making a similar argument about AA and people are attacking me most likely because I am white and therefore in no position to say what should be done with non-white applicants. My arguments are legitimate concerns shared by many people, minorities included.

I don't think Tired was insulting you as much as he was implying that everyone's first impression, based on your avatar and username, is simply to ignore a post from you that will probably just be a racial and/or stereotypical rant.

 

[IceMan0824]

So, how 'bout dem yankees?

 

[durfen]

What is it about the pre-allo forum and race?

 

[IceMan0824]

What is it about the pre-allo forum and race?

Post count.

 

[MonkeyNuts!]

If I say I know you, will they give me special consideration there? Can you talk me up with the adcomms?

Wait....err...What was the point to this thread again?

Uhhh it depends because the White Witch is very picky about who goes under her dress to eat her Turkish Delight. But I will put in a good word for you and say you have a mouth like a hoover.

The only affirmative action that any of you need to be concerned with is the percentage of fauns who get to eat turkish delight, because really, fauns have needs too.

 

[Haemulon]

What does turkish delight have to do with baseball? Is this thread about the Yankees or 3rd year clerkships? (I forget).

 

[BarrySanders]

Umm...I'm fairly certain that not being judged by the color of your skin would actually mean not giving preference to someone based on the color of their skin. Basing it on the content of their character would require us to be race-blind. Just found your use of Dr. King's phrase kind of ironic since the rest of your post clearly seems to support the use of race based AA...

If you're going to support AA, don't quote Dr. King's I have a dream speech, because that speech was definitely not about AA.

People love to turn Dr. King's words around in an effort against AA. Dr. King's words were "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Unfortunately, that day has not quite yet arrived. People are Still judged by the color of their skin, and to ignore that is naive. So I agree when this nation is indeed race-blind as you say, then judgment should solely be based on the content of character.

And by the way, I have seen many white students who have matriculated to medical school with what are considered "inferior stats," (and most recent one who had a 24 MCAT). So lets start attacking Everybody who is accepted to medical school with less than a 3.5 and 28 MCAT, not just URMs.

 

[45408]

GODWIN'S LAW!

Good call. I would have missed it had you not pointed it out.

 

[IceMan0824]

Subtle my dear Haemulon. Subtle.

Larry Birkhead is the father. "I told you so"

 

[pennybridge]

Ah...bad mistake. Didn't you read the book? The White Witch is baaaaaaaaaaaaad.

well she can't be all bad if she's white....




just kidding, you white devils.

 

[RNtoMD2011]

They already do this. They also consider Black, Hispanic and Native American as a special category in of itself. Sounds like you're arguing to get rid of AA since it causes even more divisiveness?

Not to get rid of it. Yet that it should not focus so much on race, rather on social economics. Just like not all white people are rich, not all blacks are poor and disadvantaged.

 

[psipsina]

Not to get rid of it. Yet that it should not focus so much on race, rather on social economics. Just like not all white people are rich, not all blacks are poor and disadvantaged.

which is why there is both AA and disadvantaged status. A URM might not check the disadvantaged box and an asian kid might. This hasn't been left out of the equation like you seem to think.

 

[pennybridge]

Just like not all white people are rich, not all blacks are poor and disadvantaged.

exactly, look at rap:

white rappers are poor white trash

black rappers are fly ballers


it's science.

 

[dutchman]

which is why there is both AA and disadvantaged status. A URM might not check the disadvantaged box and an asian kid might. This hasn't been left out of the equation like you seem to think.

Yep, so stop whinning. I support it even though I did not qualify as either. Those communities need healthcare, and for as long as we are not heading out there to practice, we might as well recruit doctors from those communities. They pay taxes that goes into subsidizing your stanford loans and funding of a lot of the medschools, so why leave them high and dry.

 

[EndSong]

Yep, so stop whinning. I support it even though I did not qualify as either. Those communities need healthcare, and for as long as we are not heading out there to practice, we might as well recruit doctors from those communities. They pay taxes that goes into subsidizing your stanford loans and funding of a lot of the medschools, so why leave them high and dry.

That too is a good point, but just a question here cause I don't know this myself (NOT TRYING TO ADD FUEL TO THE FIRE), but concerning the Latino community, how well do illegal immigrants pay taxes and what percentage of their population is illegal?

 

[pennybridge]

subsidizing your stanford loans

what about loans for schools other than stanford?

 

[HreComesTheSun]

That too is a good point, but just a question here cause I don't know this myself (NOT TRYING TO ADD FUEL TO THE FIRE), but concerning the Latino community, how well do illegal immigrants pay taxes and what percentage of their population is illegal?

can of worms ==> open

 

[SupergreenMnM]

what about loans for schools other than stanford?

Jeesh, are you sure spelling B critic isn't more your forte?

 

[pennybridge]

Jeesh, are you sure spelling B critic isn't more your forte?

you mean Spelling Bee?

I like to think my forte is simply in being critical

 

[SupergreenMnM]

you mean Spelling Bee?

I like to think my forte is simply in being critical

Haha, you fell into my trap and proved my point really I'm just bored...

 

[pennybridge]

Haha, you fell into my trap and proved my point really I'm just bored...

I don't appreciate your rouse ma'am.


Your cunning attempt to trick me.

 

[DoctaJay]

Not to get rid of it. Yet that it should not focus so much on race, rather on social economics. Just like not all white people are rich, not all blacks are poor and disadvantaged.

And I quote from the AAMC,

"No "race-neutral" factor can effectively substitute for
the direct consideration of race in the admissions process. For instance, substituting "economic hardship" for race and ethnicity, as some have suggested, would not address the pressing need to increase the number of minority physicians being trained in America. Studies confirm that the relationship between a physician's race or gender and his or her service to minority and other underserved populations was significantly more pronounced and consistent than the relationship between a physician's socioeconomic background and his or her service to these same population groups. See Cantor, supra, at 173, 176, 178. Moreover, accounting for economic hardship would not level the admissions playing field for minority and nonminority medical school candidates. In 2001, the average total MCAT score for underrepresented minorities coming from families with incomes of $80,000 or more was lower than the average MCAT scores of whites and Asians coming from families with incomes of $30,000 or less: The data thus confirms that targeting low-income applicants would not get more minority candidates into medical school and into medicine."

 

[dutchman]

That too is a good point, but just a question here cause I don't know this myself (NOT TRYING TO ADD FUEL TO THE FIRE), but concerning the Latino community, how well do illegal immigrants pay taxes and what percentage of their population is illegal?

I am not sure what mischievious song you are singing on this thread, so I am going to quit posting here. FYI, ~16% of America's population is made up of legal latino people.

 

[SupergreenMnM]

 

[Tired]

I am merely making a similar argument about AA and people are attacking me most likely because I am white and therefore in no position to say what should be done with non-white applicants.

I don't know about most people, but I am attacking you because you are using a glorified minstrel show as a nickname. You have taken a horrible stereotype and glorified it on a public forum. If you were Black, it would be bad enough. But the fact that you White, and using a negative Black stereotype as a name while discussing racial issues, is incredibly inappropriate. You might as well post a picture of yourself in blackface.

You sidestep this issue in your post, but it might be enlightening to explain to us why you make this kind of choice. The Black posters here have not chosen names like "PreggoMethHead" or "StupidRedNeck". Why would choose to take on the persona of TyroneBiggums?

 

[Cirrus83]

I understand exactly what the speech is aboutn
May be you did not get my point. The point is in support of Affirmative action, yet not based on race. Based on the fact that since we live in a capitalist society and some are more advantages, Medical and professional schools should take disadvantaged backgrounds into account when considering admissions. If they don't, unfortunately, in this country disadvantaged applicatants will be locked out of the American dream. This would affect every race of people, but none as drastic as it would affect Blacks and Hispanics.

As psipsina said, they do take it into account already in the generic sense, but URM status is based specifically on race. The rest of your post sort of singled out the black and hispanic communities by race as being disadvantaged, so that's why I thought you supported race-based AA.

I don't want to turn this thread into just another AA argument thread but I don't really think getting rid of the MCAT is a good way to get rid of race-based AA from medical school entrance.

P.S. I am sorry about misunderstanding your post, although I'm not the only person who got confused since someone else quoted your post talking about it being ironic (which it would only be if they misunderstood it like I did). But either way, sorry about that.

 

[Tyronebiggums]

I don't know about most people, but I am attacking you because you are using a glorified minstrel show as a nickname. You have taken a horrible stereotype and glorified it on a public forum. If you were Black, it would be bad enough. But the fact that you White, and using a negative Black stereotype as a name while discussing racial issues, is incredibly inappropriate. You might as well post a picture of yourself in blackface.

You sidestep this issue in your post, but it might be enlightening to explain to us why you make this kind of choice. The Black posters here have not chosen names like "PreggoMethHead" or "StupidRedNeck". Why would choose to take on the persona of TyroneBiggums?

I happen to think Dave Chappelle is a very funny comedian and I admire his willingness to simultaneously point out problems he sees in society while making the people who perpetuate those problems look ridiculous. Why did you choose to take the nickname Tired? Who gives a **** that's why. SDN nicknames are not the starting point for deep character analysis.
Further you said if I were black it would be "bad enough." Isn't Dave Chappelle black? Why is he allowed to think it is funny but I am not? Can white people not admire a black comedian? As I stated before my avatar shouldn't matter at all. Now that you know why I chose my avatar, I would appreciate any logical reasons why my arguments are illogical or mis-informed. I have yet to read anything in your post resembling a well-reasoned response addressing my points.
Finally, you are upset by the fact that I am white, I am against AA, and I have my SDN name and avatar. If the words in my posts remained the same and I was instead black, still against AA, and I had an avatar of a flower you would say "thanks for the alternative viewpoint." The sad fact is that it is you that is making a big deal out of race. The fact that I am white matters to you and how you evaluate my statements. You type as if no minorities exist that are against AA. That only people who don't stand to gain from AA are against it. If skin color really doesn't matter to you or any other pro AA people then you should evaluate my statements without trying to find a race-based bias. If the only difference between the races is the amount of melanin in their skin then how could that influence my views. If all races are to be treated equally how can you rationalize the existence of AA? AA is just a white guilt program to try to help right historical wrongs that nobody alive today had anything to do with. Why should inequality exist today because it existed in the opposite way before. Trying to make up for the past by altering the future is a risky endeavor. My ancestors were serfs in England for centuries but I don't get a boost if I apply to Oxford. What about other groups? Japanese people were put in camps in the US during WWII. Where is their AA? The justification of AA rests on such flimsy reasoning that the only way proponents of AA can win arguments is by labeling people who are against it bigots or racists. Even minorities who are against it are called "oreos" or "uncle toms" or "betrayers of their race." Address the argument not the avatar.

 

[Cirrus83]

People love to turn Dr. King's words around in an effort against AA. Dr. King's words were "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character."

Unfortunately, that day has not quite yet arrived. People are Still judged by the color of their skin, and to ignore that is naive. So I agree when this nation is indeed race-blind as you say, then judgment should solely be based on the content of character.

And by the way, I have seen many white students who have matriculated to medical school with what are considered "inferior stats," (and most recent one who had a 24 MCAT). So lets start attacking Everybody who is accepted to medical school with less than a 3.5 and 28 MCAT, not just URMs.

For what it's worth, nothing I've posted in this thread has ever accused anybody of being inferior, I only started posting in response to sirus_virus' claim that it was a sample size problem skewing the data, because I looked at the study and found his claim to be completely bogus.

And far as I know, the AAMC's study did not set out to proclaim that some people are inferior, but the reason why people are reacting this way is that race-based AA makes them feel like people are judging them as inferior even when they aren't.

On a side note, I'm not entirely sure if your argument works-that judging people by the color of their skin is the only way to work towards Dr. King's dream of not having people judged by the color of their skin. Apply this logic to any other argument and see how it sounds, seriously.

At any rate, I misunderstood RNtoMD's post as using Dr. King's words to support race based AA, but apparently RNtoMD does not in fact support it (for what it's worth I wasn't the only poster to misunderstand). And my post didn't say that you couldn't support AA, just that it's a terrible idea to support race based AA with that particular quote, since it would be tres ironic. But it didn't apply to RNtoMD, although I guess it actually applies to your post. My response didn't attack anything, so I can only presume that you either 1) inserted an imaginary attack on race-based AA into my post, or 2) was referring to RNtoMD's usage of Dr. King's words to attack AA, because you realized that my post showed my misunderstanding of RNtoMD's words. Somehow I don't think it's #2, but then again you also seem to reply to my post with something about people with "inferior stats" when I never mentioned anything about stats one way or another???

Anyways, the AAMC study is NOT about how they should get rid of URM status (if anything they want more successful black/hispanic doctors), and I've been defending the AAMC study's sample size...so...right.

Well, for what it's worth maybe you have psychic powers, because I am in fact not a fan of race-based AA, but my post there wasn't an attack on race-based AA at all. Nor have I ever actually used Dr. King's words to attack race-based AA, but since you've brought it up I actually think it'd be fairly effective and I'm pretty sure I've heard African-Americans who were against AA use that one.

Anyways, the real reasons I'm against race-based AA has NOTHING to do with paranoia about people with inferior stats getting into medical school, and everything to do with the psychological effects that stereotype threat caused by race-based AA inflicts upon black and hispanic medical students. The very same effects that could be increasing the academic failure rate of black and hispanic students, btw. And I've posted more than once about this in the AA threads. So don't make crazy assumptions that everyone who happens to be against race-based AA is somehow out to make society more disparate, and ruin black and hispanic peoples' lives.

Oh and P.S. people here do rag on low-scoring med school applicants who are white or asian...I mean come on, just look at the anti-DO posts, what do you think that's based on? lol