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MercyKillerDoc

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'bfoe considerin racalist, it iz an important methodogolical point ta distinguish istorically whun da concept o' "racism" became known as such. istorians disagree largely whun "race" emerged as uh concept, rangin from those who believe aspects o' it ave always existed among umans, ta those who place it as uh concept separate from general distrust o' "difference" (in which case it emerged eitha in da age o' exploration or evun as late as da 19f century). in any event, da division o' peeps into discrete groups, usually based on external anatomical features or assumed geographic origin, an' theories about ow many "races" dere wuz, an' theories o' ow ta "rank" deez races against each udda, existed long 'bfoe dey acquired any sort o' distinct stigma against dem. fear o' sexual relations betweun colored bruvers an' whitey wimin wuz central ta da tenets o' racalist. durin da late-19th century, uh numba o' thinkers emphasized dat deez views wuz morally an' ethically unjust, but dis wuz uh significantly minority opinion. evun those who opposed institutions such as slavery oftun did so not on da basis o' equality o' races, but on overall equality in treatment o' "mankind". in da 20f century, oweva, dere began uh growf o' thought dat theories o' racial "superiority" an' "inferiority" wuz inherently probletamic an' wrong. much o' da cukabillyurse relatin ta racial theory o' dis sort came out o' da united states in da years afta da american civil war, while european thinkers began ta th'o't o' peeps in terms o' linguistic "nations" mo' than dey did "races." da term "racism", accordin ta da oxford english dictionary, emerged in da early 1930s as distinct from da "theories o' race" which did ave existed fa at least uh quillion years 'bfoe dat. uh turnin point in racial thinkin came wiv da rise o' adolf itler'snazism, which built much o' its political agenda upon da rhetoric o' anti-semitism an' overt statements o' racial superiority an' inferiority. maximum opposition ta deez ideas did not begin until da outbreak o' world war ii, an' uh massiv part o' allied propaganda efforts wuz in labelin nazi germany as uh "racist" state, an' distinguishing they own states from dem. by da end o' da war, da association o' racalist wiv da nazis, an' da genocidal policies dey undertook, thoroughly established da meme dat "racism" wuz somethin ta be opposed. in da united states, da experience o' da civil rights movement furtha emphasized dis point. now, "racism" iz checked as somethin entirely ta be opposed by almost all mainstream voices, though dere iz little agreement ova wot iz "racism". it iz worf rememberin dis, whun checkin out current concepts o' "racism". in indsight, many eminent scientists, philosophers, an' statesmun appear "racist" by late-20th century standards, though da recognition o' da istorical nature o' deez judgements iz deemed by many ta exonerate deez figures or governments fa they ideas or actions all ye damn hood ratz..
 

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Wow, I think I should print that and show it to my linguistics professor....just as an example of how bad one can butcher a language.
 
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yeah, i tried to read the 1st sentence but quit when i started on the 2nd.
 

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The worst part is that it doesn't seem to follow any dialect or "slang" consistiently. Honestly, I can't decide what group of people it was written to sound like. I think, perhaps, none. At least it seems that way.
 

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ummmm, ok.
 

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I think my IQ just dropped about 10 points
 

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When I read stuff like the OP's post I think we should do stuff like this: I didn't write it, it's been attributed to Mark Twain.
A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling
For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.

Generally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeiniing voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x"— bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez —tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivili.

Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev alojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.
 

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MercyKillerDoc said:
'bfoe considerin racalist, it iz an important methodogolical point ta distinguish istorically whun da concept o' "racism" became known as such. istorians disagree largely whun "race" emerged as uh concept, rangin from those who believe aspects o' it ave always existed among umans, ta those who place it as uh concept separate from general distrust o' "difference" (in which case it emerged eitha in da age o' exploration or evun as late as da 19f century). in any event, da division o' peeps into discrete groups, usually based on external anatomical features or assumed geographic origin, an' theories about ow many "races" dere wuz, an' theories o' ow ta "rank" deez races against each udda, existed long 'bfoe dey acquired any sort o' distinct stigma against dem. fear o' sexual relations betweun colored bruvers an' whitey wimin wuz central ta da tenets o' racalist. durin da late-19th century, uh numba o' thinkers emphasized dat deez views wuz morally an' ethically unjust, but dis wuz uh significantly minority opinion. evun those who opposed institutions such as slavery oftun did so not on da basis o' equality o' races, but on overall equality in treatment o' "mankind". in da 20f century, oweva, dere began uh growf o' thought dat theories o' racial "superiority" an' "inferiority" wuz inherently probletamic an' wrong. much o' da cukabillyurse relatin ta racial theory o' dis sort came out o' da united states in da years afta da american civil war, while european thinkers began ta th'o't o' peeps in terms o' linguistic "nations" mo' than dey did "races." da term "racism", accordin ta da oxford english dictionary, emerged in da early 1930s as distinct from da "theories o' race" which did ave existed fa at least uh quillion years 'bfoe dat. uh turnin point in racial thinkin came wiv da rise o' adolf itler'snazism, which built much o' its political agenda upon da rhetoric o' anti-semitism an' overt statements o' racial superiority an' inferiority. maximum opposition ta deez ideas did not begin until da outbreak o' world war ii, an' uh massiv part o' allied propaganda efforts wuz in labelin nazi germany as uh "racist" state, an' distinguishing they own states from dem. by da end o' da war, da association o' racalist wiv da nazis, an' da genocidal policies dey undertook, thoroughly established da meme dat "racism" wuz somethin ta be opposed. in da united states, da experience o' da civil rights movement furtha emphasized dis point. now, "racism" iz checked as somethin entirely ta be opposed by almost all mainstream voices, though dere iz little agreement ova wot iz "racism". it iz worf rememberin dis, whun checkin out current concepts o' "racism". in indsight, many eminent scientists, philosophers, an' statesmun appear "racist" by late-20th century standards, though da recognition o' da istorical nature o' deez judgements iz deemed by many ta exonerate deez figures or governments fa they ideas or actions all ye damn hood ratz..
What could that possibly have to do with medical school?

It sort of reads like a bad translation of proper english into ebonics. Kind of like what you would get if you typed something into a computer translator, where the words and phrases that are too complicated are just left the way they are, like "be opposed by almost all mainstream voices".

Kind of like when I typed my message into this site: http://www.joel.net/EBONICS/translator.asp

Oh wait, you did that too? Busted.


What could dat possibly gots ta do wiff medical skoo?

It sort o' reads like uh bad translation o' proper english into ebonix. Kind o' like what ya would git if ya typed somethin' into uh geekbox translator, where da werdz an' phrases dat iz too complicated iz just left da way dey iz, like "be opposed by almost all mainstream voices".

Kind o' like when I typed muh ma ****in message into dis here site: http://www.joel.net/EBONICS/translator.asp

Oh wait, ya did dat too? Busted. brace yourself foo'!
 

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From the website:

"Disclaimer: This Web-site is an Ebonics related entertainment site. This is not real Ebonics. It is mostly slang and what people perceive as Ebonics. View this site in jest. If you think this is actually real Ebonics or believe me to be either racist or promoting Ebonics... then you're an idiot."
 

tacrum43

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MrSosa said:
From the website:

"Disclaimer: This Web-site is an Ebonics related entertainment site. This is not real Ebonics. It is mostly slang and what people perceive as Ebonics. View this site in jest. If you think this is actually real Ebonics or believe me to be either racist or promoting Ebonics... then you're an idiot."
So?
 

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I'll take this moment to remind everyone of the oft-underutilized "ignore" button.
:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: my favorite sdn feature
 
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tacrum43 said:
So? First of all, this is not ebonics. Second, people have already shown how misinformed they are on this thread with comments like "I think my IQ just dropped about 10 points" or "Wow, I think I should print that and show it to my linguistics professor....just as an example of how bad one can butcher a language." Anyone who knows anything about linguistics would know how inappropriate those comments are. In fact, reading that should actually improve your IQ. Clearly, the OP was trying to make a point. I'd like to know what it was, if only to expose his/her true feelings. It's one thing if your politics lead you disapprove of the official use of ebonics. It's quite another to ridicule it as a lesser language. Linguistically, urban english is equally expressive and actually more efficient than "proper" english. Bottom line, if you take this as some kind of commentary on racism in medicne, as the title suggests, than yes you are an idiot.
 

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I disagree with the notion that "no dialect is inferior or superior, only different." Having a limited vocabulary and little or no grammatical structure makes it difficult to express an idea and to understand the ideas of others.
 

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this isn't ebonics but since it falls under the realm of mispronounced words, one of my pet peeves is when people say "axe" when they mean "ask." it's worse than when people say "jury" when they want to say "jewelry."
 

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The OP is obviously Ali G poking fun at you premeds.
 

tacrum43

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MrSosa said:
So? First of all, this is not ebonics. Second, people have already shown how misinformed they are on this thread with comments like "I think my IQ just dropped about 10 points" or "Wow, I think I should print that and show it to my linguistics professor....just as an example of how bad one can butcher a language." Anyone who knows anything about linguistics would know how inappropriate those comments are. In fact, reading that should actually improve your IQ. Clearly, the OP was trying to make a point. I'd like to know what it was, if only to expose his/her true feelings. It's one thing if your politics lead you disapprove of the official use of ebonics. It's quite another to ridicule it as a lesser language. Linguistically, urban english is equally expressive and actually more efficient than "proper" english. Bottom line, if you take this as some kind of commentary on racism in medicne, as the title suggests, than yes you are an idiot.

I think you are reading WAY too much into the OP's post. I think he happened across the site, plugged something in, and then posted it. By the way, I was the one who linked to that site. The OP made no mention of it, and so that quote is not really relevant because it was not available for all to see with the original post. Furthermore, who is to say that the creator of that fake translator site is in anyway qualified to make the claims that he did. Besides, if this is a mockery of ebonics, then their comments are still valid.

And you don't improve your IQ by reading. Whether you believe an IQ score actually means anything or not, it has little to do with reading skills.

On a side note, people in the professional world (like medicine) do not speak to each other using ebonics, so I think the comments against it are valid. Of course, I don't like rap either. I see both as mockeries of a language and music, respectively. Does that make me racist? I don't think so. It just means that I dislike those two things that happen (for whatever reason) to be associated with black culture.
 

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tulane06 said:
I disagree with the notion that "no dialect is inferior or superior, only different." Having a limited vocabulary and little or no grammatical structure makes it difficult to express an idea and to understand the ideas of others.
That's exactly my point. Real urban english does have grammatical structure, and that's precisely why it is even accepted as a language. This is independent of the people who use it. It's a form of english. Therefore, it can still use all of the same words. As a matter of fact, that is really the only difference, a different grammar. It still has logical syntax. You can still express yourself clearly, to someone who knows that language. You're wrong to say that it's inferior.
 

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tacrum43 said:
On a side note, people in the professional world (like medicine) do not speak to each other using ebonics, so I think the comments against it are valid. Of course, I don't like rap either. I see both as mockeries of a language and music, respectively. Does that make me racist? I don't think so. It just means that I dislike those two things that happen (for whatever reason) to be associated with black culture.
Of course they don't speak ebonics. And I'm not sure if that makes you racist, but wow you are really close. Why do consider rap and ebonics "mockeries?" Is it because you think they are "inferior" things that happen to be "associated with black culture?" Some of you really should take a linguistic course, preferably from an anthropology department at your schools.

I realize that the OP might've posted in jest, but I doubt it.
 

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I have lived in New York City, Los Angeles and New Orleans, so I have plenty of experience with "Urban English," which is merely a euphemism for uneducated slang. The grammatical structure is not constant, but varies with the individual user. Sometimes small neighborhoods will have a consistent syntax but that is even rare. You seem to be applying cultural relativism to linguistics. I assume that you also believe in a "blank slate."
 

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Of course they don't speak ebonics. And I'm not sure if that makes you racist, but wow you are really close. Why do consider rap and ebonics "mockeries?" Is it because you think they are "inferior" things that happen to be "associated with black culture?" Some of you really should take a linguistic course, preferably from an anthropology department at your schools.

I realize that the OP might've posted in jest, but I doubt it.
A-men brother. From the pretty ignorant views on this thread, I can see why med schools have seemed to be impressed with my anthro major...and least its given me some perspective, which seems to be lacking. The linguistics thing threw me for a loop, its like saying, "wait til I describe this culture to my anthro prof, he'll be excited to see how backwards they are"...and if you think that it is a coincidence that these things you don't like happen to be associated with black culture then you really need to examine your true feelings.
 

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How did rap get involved in this? I love hip hop and I haven't heard anything remotely resembling ebonics in years. Country grammar and music from the midwest/south is totally different, but I guess it could be a dialect akin to ebonics.
Maybe I just listen to the wrong kinds of hip hop...
 
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DropkickMurphy

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Gavanshir said:
The OP is obviously Ali G poking fun at you premeds.
Well he'd better be careful. We're quicker to run for the lawyers than the Kazahks. :smuggrin:
 

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Gavanshir said:
The OP is obviously Ali G poking fun at you premeds.

Lets not forget that Ali G is funny...unlike the OP
 

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MrSosa said:
So? First of all, this is not ebonics. Second, people have already shown how misinformed they are on this thread with comments like "I think my IQ just dropped about 10 points" or "Wow, I think I should print that and show it to my linguistics professor....just as an example of how bad one can butcher a language." Anyone who knows anything about linguistics would know how inappropriate those comments are. In fact, reading that should actually improve your IQ. Clearly, the OP was trying to make a point. I'd like to know what it was, if only to expose his/her true feelings. It's one thing if your politics lead you disapprove of the official use of ebonics. It's quite another to ridicule it as a lesser language. Linguistically, urban english is equally expressive and actually more efficient than "proper" english. Bottom line, if you take this as some kind of commentary on racism in medicne, as the title suggests, than yes you are an idiot.
hahaha wow, you got it, MrSosa. My comment was obviously aimed at attacking minorities and the disadvantaged caucasian population living in urban environments. Oh, had I only realized how misinformed I am about the quality of the ebonics language and the deep thought that went behind the OP's post!

Please. Granted I didn't read more than three sentences of the original post, but I don't see how the OP was possibly making any sort of deep philosophical statement about American race and socioeconomic relations. My comment was a JOKE (heck, I don't even know my IQ). And one's stance on the professionalism and understandability of ebonics does not make a person a racist.

Relax. It was a joke and, like my interpretation of the OP's post, was not meant to make any sort of statement about race and culture in America. By the way, you're assuming I and everyone else who has posted here is caucasian.
 

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tulane06 said:
I have lived in New York City, Los Angeles and New Orleans, so I have plenty of experience with "Urban English," which is merely a euphemism for uneducated slang. The grammatical structure is not constant, but with varies with individual user. Sometimes small neighborhoods will have a consistent syntax but that is even rare. You seem to be applying cultural relativism to linguistics. I assume that you also believe in a "blank slate."
Man listen, you can call individuals uneducated, but don't call a whole group of people who use a certain dialect inferior. It seems like you're the one who believes in a blank slate when it comes to language. Linguistically, even new creoles have logical syntax, grammar, and rules. So, you can't say that this language is just some jibberish, regardless of how recent it is. Urban english is a euphemism for "uneducated slang" for people who think proper english is superior, which it is not. It's just the dominant culture's language. Even proper english was completely different 400 yrs ago than what it is today.
 

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I don't believe in a blank slate in regards to language. There is an innate language faculty built into everyone, but while one person may use his own grammatical system in a consistent manner, if that person isn't educated or socialized, people will not be able to understand him/her. I'm sure you will attack this argument by saying that people such as this are socialized within their own subcultures. However, if nobody outside this subculture can understand the dialect, while nearly everybody else can comprehend the standard dialect, the standard dialect is clearly a more effective means of communication.
 

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MrSosa said:
Man listen, you can call individuals uneducated, but don't call a whole group of people who use a certain dialect inferior. It seems like you're the one who believes in a blank slate when it comes to language. Linguistically, even new creoles have logical syntax, grammar, and rules. So, you can't say that this language is just some jibberish, regardless of how recent it is. Urban english is a euphemism for "uneducated slang" for people who think proper english is superior, which it is not. It's just the dominant culture's language. Even proper english was completely different 400 yrs ago than what it is today.
Languages cannot be inferior based on the way they sound, and that includes ebonics. However, one can also say that a sophisticated language is superior to an unsophisticated one. I am not talking about pronunciation here - but the scope of ideas that the language can convey. So yes, I would argue that the German and ancient Greek of the great philosophers is a superior language to Hottentot.
 

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tulane06 said:
I don't believe in a blank slate in regards to language. There is an innate language faculty built into everyone, but while one person may use his own grammatical system in a consistent manner, if that person isn't educated or socialized, people will not be able to understand him/her. I'm sure you will attack this argument by saying that people such as this are socialized within their own subcultures. However, if nobody outside this subculture can understand the dialect, while nearly everybody else can comprehend the standard dialect, the standard dialect is clearly a more effective means of communication.
I don't really buy the last statement. By this logic, Chinese would be, a priori, a superior language to English, Spanish, etc. which it isn't necessarily.
 

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I am referring to dialects within a single language
 

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tulane06 said:
I don't believe in a blank slate in regards to language. There is an innate language faculty built into everyone, but while one person may use his own grammatical system in a consistent manner, if that person isn't educated or socialized, people will not be able to understand him/her. I'm sure you will attack this argument by saying that people such as this are socialized within their own subcultures. However, if nobody outside this subculture can understand the dialect, while nearly everybody else can comprehend the standard dialect, the standard dialect is clearly a more effective means of communication.
Ok, so there is an innate language faculty. I'm with you there. But what you're saying implies that it takes higher intelligence to use proper english than it does to use ebonics. In fact, it does not. And you really should drop the whole "less grammar" argument because that is so false. And we're talkng about groups here, not individuals. It wouldn't be a language if more than one person wasn't using it. Obviously it can be understood. Are you sayin that this whole group is not socialized?
So, yeah I responded predictably. it's still stands.
Nobody is trying to make ebonics the national language. I'm just saying that you guys need to stop equating it with inferiority. Your culture is not the best ok.
 

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MrSosa said:
Ok, so there is an innate language faculty. I'm with you there. But what you're saying implies that it takes higher intelligence to use proper english than it does to use ebonics. In fact, it does not. And you really should drop the whole "less grammar" argument because that is so false. And we're talkng about groups here, not individuals. It wouldn't be a language if more than one person wasn't using it. Obviously it can be understood. Are you sayin that this whole group is not socialized?
So, yeah I responded predictably. it's still stands.
Nobody is trying to make ebonics the national language. I'm just saying that you guys need to stop equating it with inferiority. Your culture is not the best ok.
So how do you respond to the fact that most people who speak in ebonics are of lower socioeconomic status? I don't think tulane06 is trying to say a higher intelligence is needed to use proper English; I think his point is that you rarely hear people who are educated use ebonics to the extent of the OP's post. Of course this doesn't mean that people who use proper english are "superior" to those who don't (and I don't think anyone is trying to say one culture is superior to another), but to think that the use of ebonics and level of education are completely independent of each other is a bit naive.
 

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Wow. Someone here has an enormous chip on their shoulders.
 

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well, calling ebonics uneducated slang is painful to the ears of most people (not all) who've studied linguistics as it relates to dialect and interpersonal communication (cause u can study a couple branches of linguistics and never approach this topic)
 

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Is believing certain races have general strengths and weaknesses racist?

Isn't it a bit old fashioned to think everyone is the same?

Where does heritage fit in here?
 
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