Radiology is No Longer a Lifestyle Specialty

[Rads Consult]

While I agree that radiology still has many advantages over other specialties in terms of lifestyle, I don't think it is what it used to be. Just a few examples are:

- If you join academics or a Kaiser, your vacation is ~ 4-5wks which is the norm for most physicians. If you want more vacation and choose the private practice route, you are grinding it out every day, reading nearly double the volume to get that extra vacation.
- Hospitals want 24/7 radiology, subspecialty reads which means that there are lots of rads going into night time radiology. And the day time radiologists are having to work staggered shifts (6-3, 8-5, noon-10) to meet the subspecialty requirements that hospitals are demanding. Swing shifts are not exactly a great lifestyle.
- Salaries are going down and who knows what AI will do.
- Burn out is extremely high.

Thoughts?

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[radsisrad]

While I agree that radiology still has many advantages over other specialties in terms of lifestyle, I don't think it is what it used to be. Just a few examples are:

- If you join academics or a Kaiser, your vacation is ~ 4-5wks which is the norm for most physicians. If you want more vacation and choose the private practice route, you are grinding it out every day, reading nearly double the volume to get that extra vacation.
- Hospitals want 24/7 radiology, subspecialty reads which means that there are lots of rads going into night time radiology. And the day time radiologists are having to work staggered shifts (6-3, 8-5, noon-10) to meet the subspecialty requirements that hospitals are demanding. Swing shifts are not exactly a great lifestyle.
- Salaries are going down and who knows what AI will do.
- Burn out is extremely high.

Thoughts?

When you're making as much as we do to sit and read images on a computer, it's a lifestyle specialty.

 

[Shufflin]

Is burn out an issue in Rads?

 

[colbgw02]

Is burn out an issue in Rads?

Report reveals severity of burnout by specialty

This suggests that radiology is doing better than most other specialties with regard to burnout.

 

[neoexile]

When you're making as much as we do to sit and read images on a computer, it's a lifestyle specialty.

I'm an IM resident wandering in here and I've rotated with radiologists. Trust me. It's not a lifestyle specialty. It seems automation is imminent and radiologists feel like they are commodities. Not only that, but often in the hospital you are sitting there trying to produce readings one after another and it becomes a never ending staircase as a lot of clinicians will order studies to be read right on the spot. I haven't seen a radiologist that was "done for the day."

I think if people consider sitting in a dark room and reading images all day to be pleasurable, then it is a lifestyle specialty. But talking about a 9-5 job where you can "take it easy", then I feel like this is a misunderstanding of what radiology is.

 

[Mad Jack]

While I agree that radiology still has many advantages over other specialties in terms of lifestyle, I don't think it is what it used to be. Just a few examples are:

- If you join academics or a Kaiser, your vacation is ~ 4-5wks which is the norm for most physicians. If you want more vacation and choose the private practice route, you are grinding it out every day, reading nearly double the volume to get that extra vacation.
- Hospitals want 24/7 radiology, subspecialty reads which means that there are lots of rads going into night time radiology. And the day time radiologists are having to work staggered shifts (6-3, 8-5, noon-10) to meet the subspecialty requirements that hospitals are demanding. Swing shifts are not exactly a great lifestyle.
- Salaries are going down and who knows what AI will do.
- Burn out is extremely high.

Thoughts?

Ponder one day as a hospitalist instead and get back to me

 

[vm26]

While I agree that radiology still has many advantages over other specialties in terms of lifestyle, I don't think it is what it used to be. Just a few examples are:

- If you join academics or a Kaiser, your vacation is ~ 4-5wks which is the norm for most physicians. If you want more vacation and choose the private practice route, you are grinding it out every day, reading nearly double the volume to get that extra vacation.
- Hospitals want 24/7 radiology, subspecialty reads which means that there are lots of rads going into night time radiology. And the day time radiologists are having to work staggered shifts (6-3, 8-5, noon-10) to meet the subspecialty requirements that hospitals are demanding. Swing shifts are not exactly a great lifestyle.
- Salaries are going down and who knows what AI will do.
- Burn out is extremely high.

Thoughts?

1. Avoid Kaiser and academics and take a job with a group like Sutter (440-460K for 188 10 hr shifts/year for a FTE). Academics in the midwest will likely start you in the mid-300's. My lifestyle practice average s 3.5 workdays/week.
2. Overnight telerads has peaked in my opinion. These are rudimentary prelim's, 2-3 sentence reports. One does not need to be CAQ'd in neuro to determine if there is a stroke, dissection etc. No one is asking for am MSK overnight read on a sh MRI.
3. From my personal experience salaries are not decreasing. I am not a new grad but recently accepted a private practice job where I was able to knock a year off the partnership tract, add 50K to the starting salary, and also throw in a 10K relocation allowance (which was something the group did not ever offer). This job is in a large NE metro area. Also receiving daily emails/calls from recruiters about jobs. When I graduated from fellowship in 2013 there were around 200 jobs on the ACR job site. Now around 900-950. market is pretty strong now.
4. AI will likely replace pilots, cab drivers, fast food workers, pharmacists etc before they replace radiologists. Would like to see AI perform an upper GI or barium enema, thyroid biopsy, lung biopsy, discuss the results of a diagnostic breast work-up with the patient etc
5. High-volume practices can lead to burn-out but this is true with any area of medicine. Do you think ER docs/hospitalists aren't burnt out? Its all about expectations and ones perspective. Have a friend in the south who is killing it in a high volume practice that also gives you 12 weeks vacation.

 

[Jesus1]

While some of what you say is true, I will take radiology 20/10 over any other specialty in medicine. Sometimes we don't realize how you're largely shielded from a lot of the crap that makes practicing medicine in this country a drag.

 

[LBJLA23]

I'm an IM resident wandering in here and I've rotated with radiologists. Trust me. It's not a lifestyle specialty. It seems automation is imminent and radiologists feel like they are commodities. Not only that, but often in the hospital you are sitting there trying to produce readings one after another and it becomes a never ending staircase as a lot of clinicians will order studies to be read right on the spot. I haven't seen a radiologist that was "done for the day."

I think if people consider sitting in a dark room and reading images all day to be pleasurable, then it is a lifestyle specialty. But talking about a 9-5 job where you can "take it easy", then I feel like this is a misunderstanding of what radiology is.

LOL @ an IM resident trying to tell us what lifestyle means

 

[neoexile]

While some of what you say is true, I will take radiology 20/10 over any other specialty in medicine. Sometimes we don't realize how you're largely shielded from a lot of the crap that makes practicing medicine in this country a drag.

True. This is why for many, radiology is a lifestyle specialty.

 

[chudat]

LOL @ an IM resident trying to tell us what lifestyle means

People like you baffle me. Why do you have to put him down with your comment?

What the IM resident said is not false; the work list is never empty and definitely feels like a drag sometimes. There is always pressure to put out the reports on a timely fashion with 100% accuracy. When youre thru with a complicated inpt belly and come back to ur worklist just to realize that its ballooned threefold by some B.S. studies ordered by the ER attendings.

While radiology still trumps IM in terms of "lifestyle", it by no means is a "lifestyle" specialty.

 

[LBJLA23]

People like you baffle me. Why do you have to put him down with your comment?

What the IM resident said is not false; the work list is never empty and definitely feels like a drag sometimes. There is always pressure to put out the reports on a timely fashion with 100% accuracy. When youre thru with a complicated inpt belly and come back to ur worklist just to realize that its ballooned threefold by some B.S. studies ordered by the ER attendings.

While radiology still trumps IM in terms of "lifestyle", it by no means is a "lifestyle" specialty.

No patients, for the most part. No notes. No social work BS. No clinic. Set hours with most weekends off. Sitting in a dark room looking at images. No rounding. High pay.

If that's not lifestyle in medicine I'm not sure what is....only ones that are better are Path, Derm and Rad Onc but they have their sissues too

 

[deleted103644]

No patients, for the most part. No notes. No social work BS. No clinic. Set hours with most weekends off. Sitting in a dark room looking at images. No rounding. High pay.

If that's not lifestyle in medicine I'm not sure what is....only ones that are better are Path, Derm and Rad Onc but they have their sissues too

Path?

 

[odyssey2]

As a med student strongly considering radiology, I get confused by the back and forth over how much of a "lifestyle" specialty it really is, which I see when I ask residents and attendings in real life. My understanding is that being relieved of the headaches of clinic, long operations, and rounding puts it over the edge of most specialties, but the constant grind of the work means a lot of mental exhaustion at the end of the day.

Couldn't this be considered more of a lifestyle field to certain personalities more than others, ie, introverts who don't mind sitting in the dark reading studies for hours at a time vs dealing with relatively minor skin complaints from 40 patients in one day or having to counsel cancer patients in clinic? It seems to be like the focus on diagnosis and "pure" medicine without the headaches of clinic or inpatient management is a huge plus for many people.

I've been interested in radiology since before med school and the only thing that's put me off the specialty is warnings over how much of a grind it has become now that imaging has exploded and is 24/7. It's difficult to really get a feel for radiology as a med student so I feel like a lot of students rely on these threads to try to get an understanding of what it's really like.

 

[chudat]

No patients, for the most part. No notes. No social work BS. No clinic. Set hours with most weekends off. Sitting in a dark room looking at images. No rounding. High pay.

If that's not lifestyle in medicine I'm not sure what is....only ones that are better are Path, Derm and Rad Onc but they have their sissues too

No time for lunch either....

Also, you didn't have to be condescending to the IM poster to prove ur point.

 

[neoexile]

As a med student strongly considering radiology, I get confused by the back and forth over how much of a "lifestyle" specialty it really is, which I see when I ask residents and attendings in real life. My understanding is that being relieved of the headaches of clinic, long operations, and rounding puts it over the edge of most specialties, but the constant grind of the work means a lot of mental exhaustion at the end of the day.

Couldn't this be considered more of a lifestyle field to certain personalities more than others, ie, introverts who don't mind sitting in the dark reading studies for hours at a time vs dealing with relatively minor skin complaints from 40 patients in one day or having to counsel cancer patients in clinic? It seems to be like the focus on diagnosis and "pure" medicine without the headaches of clinic or inpatient management is a huge plus for many people.

I've been interested in radiology since before med school and the only thing that's put me off the specialty is warnings over how much of a grind it has become now that imaging has exploded and is 24/7. It's difficult to really get a feel for radiology as a med student so I feel like a lot of students rely on these threads to try to get an understanding of what it's really like.

It's only a lifestyle specialty if you consider sitting in a dark room and reading images to be a good lifestyle. I'm convinced by my Radiologist colleagues that the dreams of a 9-5 job in radiology will not be realized and unfortunately, reimbursements are being cut. As per the Radiologists I worked with, Radiologists are commodities and can be easily replaced. Any expectation that people will have of big money for low hours may actually not be realized.

 

[LittleFoot]

As a med student strongly considering radiology, I get confused by the back and forth over how much of a "lifestyle" specialty it really is, which I see when I ask residents and attendings in real life. My understanding is that being relieved of the headaches of clinic, long operations, and rounding puts it over the edge of most specialties, but the constant grind of the work means a lot of mental exhaustion at the end of the day.

Couldn't this be considered more of a lifestyle field to certain personalities more than others, ie, introverts who don't mind sitting in the dark reading studies for hours at a time vs dealing with relatively minor skin complaints from 40 patients in one day or having to counsel cancer patients in clinic? It seems to be like the focus on diagnosis and "pure" medicine without the headaches of clinic or inpatient management is a huge plus for many people.

I've been interested in radiology since before med school and the only thing that's put me off the specialty is warnings over how much of a grind it has become now that imaging has exploded and is 24/7. It's difficult to really get a feel for radiology as a med student so I feel like a lot of students rely on these threads to try to get an understanding of what it's really like.

People tend to generalize lifestyle based on specialty alone way too much. Also, people have different definitions of "lifestyle".

If you don't want to work odd or long hours, then don't look for jobs that make you work odd or long hours. There really is a lot of variation of pay, lifestyle, etc., within each specialty.

But you make a good point, if you hate the idea of sitting in a dark room looking at black & white images all day, then sure, I can see how it wouldn't seem like a lifestyle specialty at all... especially when you can imagine yourself happy hammering hips and knees in the OR for better pay, for example.

 

[LittleFoot]

It's only a lifestyle specialty if you consider sitting in a dark room and reading images to be a good lifestyle. I'm convinced by my Radiologist colleagues that the dreams of a 9-5 job in radiology will not be realized and unfortunately, reimbursements are being cut. As per the Radiologists I worked with, Radiologists are commodities and can be easily replaced. Any expectation that people will have of big money for low hours may actually not be realized.

Reimbursements appear to have actually consistently risen steadily over the last 5+ years. Sure, the future is uncertain but you can basically say that for any specialty, or any profession at that matter. I wouldn't take what you've heard from a few Radiologists you work with as a consensus to what is actually happening within the specialty.

 

[vm26]

As a med student strongly considering radiology, I get confused by the back and forth over how much of a "lifestyle" specialty it really is, which I see when I ask residents and attendings in real life. My understanding is that being relieved of the headaches of clinic, long operations, and rounding puts it over the edge of most specialties, but the constant grind of the work means a lot of mental exhaustion at the end of the day.

Couldn't this be considered more of a lifestyle field to certain personalities more than others, ie, introverts who don't mind sitting in the dark reading studies for hours at a time vs dealing with relatively minor skin complaints from 40 patients in one day or having to counsel cancer patients in clinic? It seems to be like the focus on diagnosis and "pure" medicine without the headaches of clinic or inpatient management is a huge plus for many people.

I've been interested in radiology since before med school and the only thing that's put me off the specialty is warnings over how much of a grind it has become now that imaging has exploded and is 24/7. It's difficult to really get a feel for radiology as a med student so I feel like a lot of students rely on these threads to try to get an understanding of what it's really like.

What made you interested in rads before med school? Sure many introverts may enjoy reading studies in the dark for hours but how many studies and how many hours are we talking about? From my personal experience there's a fine line between working hard in a given day versus freaking hating your job due to high volume, stress, constant interruptions etc.

"Lifestyle" is all relative. One can have a better lifestyle gig as an orthopod at a quiet VA versus a dermatologist working in a busy but thriving independently owned private practice. Trade off would be income in this scenario. Bottom line is how many hours do you want to work per week and how much do you want to make? Disclaimer is that 5-10 years from now we may be operating under a single payor government run system where all bets are off (except your med school loan debt).

 

[odyssey2]

What made you interested in rads before med school? Sure many introverts may enjoy reading studies in the dark for hours but how many studies and how many hours are we talking about? From my personal experience there's a fine line between working hard in a given day versus freaking hating your job due to high volume, stress, constant interruptions etc.

"Lifestyle" is all relative. One can have a better lifestyle gig as an orthopod at a quiet VA versus a dermatologist working in a busy but thriving independently owned private practice. Trade off would be income in this scenario. Bottom line is how many hours do you want to work per week and how much do you want to make? Disclaimer is that 5-10 years from now we may be operating under a single payor government run system where all bets are off (except your med school loan debt).

Would you consider "high volume, stress, constant interruptions" and people "freaking hating" their jobs to be the norm working in radiology these days?

I think the honest answer would be that I liked radiology before med school because I liked the focus on diagnosis and the cerebral aspects of it, and I had a hard time imagining myself doing anything else in medicine. Third year really hit this home for me.

I wouldn't like to work more than 50-55 hours a week at a job, and I'd rather not want to die when I come home. Money is secondary to these concerns.

 

[vm26]

Would you consider "high volume, stress, constant interruptions" and people "freaking hating" their jobs to be the norm working in radiology these days?

I think the honest answer would be that I liked radiology before med school because I liked the focus on diagnosis and the cerebral aspects of it, and I had a hard time imagining myself doing anything else in medicine. Third year really hit this home for me.

I wouldn't like to work more than 50-55 hours a week at a job, and I'd rather not want to die when I come home. Money is secondary to these concerns.

Hard to say what the norm is. Many different types of practices put there. There are groups that place an emphasis on reasonable work hours (50 hours or less/week), while other groups that emphasis productivity (which may mean more hours or simply cranking through more studies). Currently the market is pretty good so I would image that one could fine a good fit right now. I completed training in 2o13 when the market was horrendous so not a lot of options back then. My current job would likely suit you, on average work 3-4 days per week for a small private group with moderate volume, no burn-out and honestly don't get the Sunday night blues when thinking about work on Monday. Trade-off is being required to do a wide variety of things (breast, light IR, cardiac nucs, etc). If you like diagnosis and cerebral aspects of the field then I think it will likely be a good fit for you. While I'm optimistic that market will remain decent for next couple of years (mainly due to older rads retiring), very hard to predict. Also realize that if you're geographically tied down to an area such as SF or NYC, work conditions will likely be more demanding/less-optimal.

 

[chudat]

Reimbursements appear to have actually consistently risen steadily over the last 5+ years. Sure, the future is uncertain but you can basically say that for any specialty, or any profession at that matter. I wouldn't take what you've heard from a few Radiologists you work with as a consensus to what is actually happening within the specialty.

The rise in reimbursement does not commensurate with the rise in workload.

Obviously, lifestyle will vary between academic vs private....and the variability among private practices

 

[colbgw02]

Would you consider "high volume, stress, constant interruptions" and people "freaking hating" their jobs to be the norm working in radiology these days?

I think the honest answer would be that I liked radiology before med school because I liked the focus on diagnosis and the cerebral aspects of it, and I had a hard time imagining myself doing anything else in medicine. Third year really hit this home for me.

I wouldn't like to work more than 50-55 hours a week at a job, and I'd rather not want to die when I come home. Money is secondary to these concerns.

Even within a practice, things aren't monolithic. I had two days this past week that quite aptly fit the description of "high volume and stressful with constant interruptions", but the rest of the week was pretty darn good from both an hours and volume standpoint. I think by most metrics, I'm in a high-volume practice, but that doesn't mean every day is crazy. Similarly, I'm on call this weekend, which sucks. Hard. But I get 4 weekends off for every one I work, and there's lots of vacation. Also, unlike my last job, I have no scheduled overnight shifts.

I guess my point is that you take the good with the bad, and I still think there's a whole lot more good with radiology than there is bad. It's been over a decade for me since internship, but I still try to remember just how miserable it was to write SOAP notes, round, or see patients in clinic. I wouldn't last very long in a job where I had to do those things, and, for me at least, getting away from that crap was a major draw of radiology. I think a lot of radiologists, particularly those mid-to-late in their careers, forget that.

 

[colbgw02]

Inasmuch as there's a debate about the lifestyle in radiology, I think it stems from two things: 1) the differences between the radiology that medical students are exposed to and "typical*" private practice radiology and 2) the differences between radiology now as compared to as recently as 15 years ago.

Regarding the first one, I think medical students naturally look at radiology residency and academic radiology as their guides for the specialty. That makes sense, but I think the gulf between academics and private practice is wider in radiology than it is in other fields. I wonder if there's a bit of a culture shock when former medical students, believing they're entering a lifestyle specialty, are now asked to handle the volumes of a typical* private practice.

I also don't think there's any debate that, as compared to pre-DRA days, volumes are up and reimbursement is down. This is now a 24/7/365 field. And nevermind the golden age of reimbursement from 30 years ago. If you're a mid-to-late career radiologist, your lifestyle is almost assuredly worse now than it was in 2005, perhaps even substantially so. It's difficult not to look back at that time and conceptualize that as a lifestyle specialty and see all the ways that radiology is no longer like that.

*I write typical here fully recognizing the wide breadth of practice type and production expectations in radiology.

 

[Mad Jack]

No time for lunch either....

Also, you didn't have to be condescending to the IM poster to prove ur point.

He wasn't being condescending, he was saying it was funny to have a person that chose a lifestyle devoid specialty to be ripping on the lifestyle of a relatively benign one. It would be like a psychiatrist saying to an EM physician, "your job is tough, you deal with so many psychotic patients."

 

[LBJLA23]

He wasn't being condescending, he was saying it was funny to have a person that chose a lifestyle devoid specialty to be ripping on the lifestyle of a relatively benign one. It would be like a psychiatrist saying to an EM physician, "your job is tough, you deal with so many psychotic patients."

Nailed it.

 

[odyssey2]

I think the most important question to me is, are the more lifestyle-friendly jobs out there, 50 hours a week or less without the grind that causes burnout, for students like me who don't prioritize money and aren't constrained by geography?

 

[LBJLA23]

I think the most important question to me is, are the more lifestyle-friendly jobs out there, 50 hours a week or less without the grind that causes burnout, for students like me who don't prioritize money and aren't constrained by geography?

Yes, there are lifestyle jobs out there for less pay.

 

[scootad.]

I’m happy I chose rads. No regrets here. While there were a few bumps along the way, including graduating at the trough of the job market, my current position is satisfying. Predictable hours. Volumes can be high at times, but now 8 years out of training, I can grind through cases efficiently, feel like I’ve seen it all (or even if I come across something complex/bizarre I can take a semi intelligent stab at it), make good money for hours worked.

Lots of options in terms of practice environments, tons of openings. For the right person Rads is a great field.

 

[DOFOSHO]

I'm an IM resident wandering in here and I've rotated with radiologists. Trust me. It's not a lifestyle specialty. It seems automation is imminent and radiologists feel like they are commodities. Not only that, but often in the hospital you are sitting there trying to produce readings one after another and it becomes a never ending staircase as a lot of clinicians will order studies to be read right on the spot. I haven't seen a radiologist that was "done for the day."

I think if people consider sitting in a dark room and reading images all day to be pleasurable, then it is a lifestyle specialty. But talking about a 9-5 job where you can "take it easy", then I feel like this is a misunderstanding of what radiology is.

bro...

 

[meister]

Such a variable field that the thread title is meaningless. There are radiologists doing 24/7 VIR and/or INR call. That’s not “lifestyle” in any sense of the word. There are radiologists working in outpatient only groups working four days a week and no evenings or weekends. I’d consider that lifestyle. Most are somewhere in between.

It is what you make it.

 

[Naijaba]

We just had a panel discussion with four radiologists in private practice. Here's a common salary scheme (since real salary info seems difficult to find, and it should be available to med students making this important decision):
-Full benefits (health/dental/retirement matching/etc.)
-7:30 am to 5:30 pm (10 hours)
-Four days a week
-Call every sixth weekend (7 weekends / year)
-9 weeks vacation
-160 plain films or 25-30 CTs/MRs per day
-Changing services each week
-$300K yearly salary
-Desirable location
-Can work more/less by taking/giving shifts from other radiologists in the group

That's 188 ten-hour shifts per year (just like the poster above said) at an average rate of $160 per hour.

This is a perfect lifestyle for me. Work (very) hard a few days, impact a huge number of patients, and be compensated well. Then, spend your free time doing research, hiking, programming, writing, raising kids, eating out, whatever.

Edit: I should add one more thing - all of the panelists worked in the same area as their residency, and all of them found their jobs by asking people they knew. None found jobs on ad boards. It's very important to do a residency (or fellowship) where you want to work long-term.

 

[Fbdags144]

As a med student strongly considering radiology, I get confused by the back and forth over how much of a "lifestyle" specialty it really is, which I see when I ask residents and attendings in real life. My understanding is that being relieved of the headaches of clinic, long operations, and rounding puts it over the edge of most specialties, but the constant grind of the work means a lot of mental exhaustion at the end of the day.

Couldn't this be considered more of a lifestyle field to certain personalities more than others, ie, introverts who don't mind sitting in the dark reading studies for hours at a time vs dealing with relatively minor skin complaints from 40 patients in one day or having to counsel cancer patients in clinic? It seems to be like the focus on diagnosis and "pure" medicine without the headaches of clinic or inpatient management is a huge plus for many people.

I've been interested in radiology since before med school and the only thing that's put me off the specialty is warnings over how much of a grind it has become now that imaging has exploded and is 24/7. It's difficult to really get a feel for radiology as a med student so I feel like a lot of students rely on these threads to try to get an understanding of what it's really like.

Resident here. This field is really great for introverts and book readers IMO. Its highly stimulating and all medicine with no BS. For me personally, I have found it extremely draining socially as my residents are not as social as my former fellow IM interns. I am an extrovert and despite feeling more refreshed/less tired, I feel much less satisfied during daily work. I rather have the team work and attractive nurses around all the time than sit in a dark room all day. My plans are to switch specialties

 

[odyssey2]

Resident here. This field is really great for introverts and book readers IMO. Its highly stimulating and all medicine with no BS. For me personally, I have found it extremely draining socially as my residents are not as social as my former fellow IM interns. I am an extrovert and despite feeling more refreshed/less tired, I feel much less satisfied during daily work. I rather have the team work and attractive nurses around all the time than sit in a dark room all day. My plans are to switch specialties

I’m sure there are attractive rad techs.

What are you switching into?

 

[Rad2013]

Haven't logged into this site in years.... this was a fun thread to read.

Regarding training.... radiology residency at most programs is pretty brutal nowadays. Where I trained, radiology ranked second to surgical specialties with regard to morale and burnout. Programs that are resident-driven (i.e. the workload falls on the residents... including overnight call without attending coverage) are tough. It is tiring. High volumes, constant work, "cerebral" work. You constantly get told that you need to go home after work each day and study for 1-2 hours (not saying I did that....). First year, you get to feel like an idiot every rotation because you're the first line of defense for phone calls and questions and don't know anything (internship was useless for radiology, not a surprise). Second year, you get crushed with call (although, you start to feel better from a being useful perspective). Third year is more call (although less than second year), fellowship applications/interviews, and the Core Exam (note: Crack the Core and one QBank, no more). Fourth year... mostly good... only bad thing is having to pick up a little more call at the end of the year so third years can take the Core. Fellowship is generally good by comparison. Although non-ACGME fellows can have it rough by being forced to act as attendings and taking attending call (without any compensation). ACGME fellows (like Neuroradiology) are protected from this. The pro to non-ACGME is that you get to take some real responsibility before your first post-training job.


Sorry.. that was a bit long... more on the topic of this thread...

As many have mentioned, there is such variation in radiology jobs, it doesn't make sense to say radiology is a lifestyle field or it isn't... It's important to know your values. And... if you have a significant other +/- kids... it's important that their values jive with yours. There is a balance between income, work demands, and location. If you stay true to your values, you can find a perfect fit.

Here's me, for example. I'm in my first job out of fellowship, which is an in-house night job for a large group. Most will scoff at night jobs. I chose this job and the lifestyle that comes with it. I had offers for daytime, partnership track jobs, but chose nights (for now). It probably won't be my last job... but, it fits with my values in my present situation (girlfriend in nursing school, live together, 3 dogs, no kids)...

Current values/desires (and how they're being met):
-Ample time off (34 weeks off per year)
-Good compensation ($400k doing the bare minimum, 122 ten hour shifts)
-Opportunity to work additional shifts to increase earnings, if desired (I pick up extra shifts here and there without dramatically diminishing my overall time off and will easily reach $550k)
-Reasonable workload (I spend way more time caught up than behind... I am writing this during a shift... I read, send emails, watch Netflix)
-Support staff/system to minimize phone calls/frustration (amazing support, both staff and software system)
-No IR, no mammo (check. rare LP or simple UGI)

I can't imagine more of a lifestyle field for me at the moment.

I'll leave it at that. Hopefully there will be some fun follow up posts from people ripping on night jobs for me to read over my next two weeks off...

 

[Radology]

Part of me wishes I worked a 1:2 night job. They get such a bad rap, I don’t get it. I don’t understand how the retention rate is so low

 

[colbgw02]

I passed on a 1 on/2 off overnight job, and it really came down to weekends and holidays. I was generally pretty worthless while at home during night float, so I couldn't really participate in the life of my family during those weeks, meaning I'd miss out on 1/3 Saturdays, Thanksgivings, Christmases, etc.. I know people say you can make up the time during your weeks off, but once the kids are school-age, being around for a bunch of weekdays doesn't carry as much weight as a single Sunday afternoon, at least not to me.

 

[odyssey2]

Haven't logged into this site in years.... this was a fun thread to read.

Regarding training.... radiology residency at most programs is pretty brutal nowadays. Where I trained, radiology ranked second to surgical specialties with regard to morale and burnout. Programs that are resident-driven (i.e. the workload falls on the residents... including overnight call without attending coverage) are tough. It is tiring. High volumes, constant work, "cerebral" work. You constantly get told that you need to go home after work each day and study for 1-2 hours (not saying I did that....). First year, you get to feel like an idiot every rotation because you're the first line of defense for phone calls and questions and don't know anything (internship was useless for radiology, not a surprise). Second year, you get crushed with call (although, you start to feel better from a being useful perspective). Third year is more call (although less than second year), fellowship applications/interviews, and the Core Exam (note: Crack the Core and one QBank, no more). Fourth year... mostly good... only bad thing is having to pick up a little more call at the end of the year so third years can take the Core. Fellowship is generally good by comparison. Although non-ACGME fellows can have it rough by being forced to act as attendings and taking attending call (without any compensation). ACGME fellows (like Neuroradiology) are protected from this. The pro to non-ACGME is that you get to take some real responsibility before your first post-training job.


Sorry.. that was a bit long... more on the topic of this thread...

As many have mentioned, there is such variation in radiology jobs, it doesn't make sense to say radiology is a lifestyle field or it isn't... It's important to know your values. And... if you have a significant other +/- kids... it's important that their values jive with yours. There is a balance between income, work demands, and location. If you stay true to your values, you can find a perfect fit.

Here's me, for example. I'm in my first job out of fellowship, which is an in-house night job for a large group. Most will scoff at night jobs. I chose this job and the lifestyle that comes with it. I had offers for daytime, partnership track jobs, but chose nights (for now). It probably won't be my last job... but, it fits with my values in my present situation (girlfriend in nursing school, live together, 3 dogs, no kids)...

Current values/desires (and how they're being met):
-Ample time off (34 weeks off per year)
-Good compensation ($400k doing the bare minimum, 122 ten hour shifts)
-Opportunity to work additional shifts to increase earnings, if desired (I pick up extra shifts here and there without dramatically diminishing my overall time off and will easily reach $550k)
-Reasonable workload (I spend way more time caught up than behind... I am writing this during a shift... I read, send emails, watch Netflix)
-Support staff/system to minimize phone calls/frustration (amazing support, both staff and software system)
-No IR, no mammo (check. rare LP or simple UGI)

I can't imagine more of a lifestyle field for me at the moment.

I'll leave it at that. Hopefully there will be some fun follow up posts from people ripping on night jobs for me to read over my next two weeks off...

How do you deal with the difficulty in switching from overnight shifts to day living? Is it similar to the Circadian rhythm problems ED docs have?

 

[Rad2013]

How do you deal with the difficulty in switching from overnight shifts to day living? Is it similar to the Circadian rhythm problems ED docs have?

I find that switching from days to nights is pretty easy. I just take a few hour nap before my first overnight shift and that seems adequate. Switching back to days from nights is a little harder. I usually go straight to bed when I get home the final morning but then get up mid-day ... I'm then tired enough to go to bed at a normal hour that night. Then back on normal day schedule.

 

[qxrt]

Having finished DR residency and now in IR fellowship, in some sense, DR is totally still a lifestyle specialty. Your hours are fixed, you get out at a specific non-variable time (relatively speaking), and you avoid almost all of the headaches that come with clinical medicine, namely, unpredictable clinical and social factors associated with patients that can cause tremendous headaches. You see a nonspecific lesion on CT? Just call it that, give it your best guess and perhaps recommendations for further imaging, and once the report is signed, basically, that is the end to your responsibility.

Much of the stressor in medicine for me does not come from long hours or simply being busy. It comes from being responsible for problems (e.g. social issues, patient circumstances) that you completely bypass in diagnostic radiology. In that sense, I have some nostalgia for how nice life was in DR. I have no regrets about IR, but it is a much tougher lifestyle going back into clinical medicine, no doubt. It is the reason that so many DR residents start residency saying that IR is one of the things that they're interested in, then by the end of residency, most of them have chosen something else.

 

[HIValadeen]

1. Avoid Kaiser and academics and take a job with a group like Sutter (440-460K for 188 10 hr shifts/year for a FTE). Academics in the midwest will likely start you in the mid-300's. My lifestyle practice average s 3.5 workdays/week.
2. Overnight telerads has peaked in my opinion. These are rudimentary prelim's, 2-3 sentence reports. One does not need to be CAQ'd in neuro to determine if there is a stroke, dissection etc. No one is asking for am MSK overnight read on a sh MRI.
3. From my personal experience salaries are not decreasing. I am not a new grad but recently accepted a private practice job where I was able to knock a year off the partnership tract, add 50K to the starting salary, and also throw in a 10K relocation allowance (which was something the group did not ever offer). This job is in a large NE metro area. Also receiving daily emails/calls from recruiters about jobs. When I graduated from fellowship in 2013 there were around 200 jobs on the ACR job site. Now around 900-950. market is pretty strong now.
4. AI will likely replace pilots, cab drivers, fast food workers, pharmacists etc before they replace radiologists. Would like to see AI perform an upper GI or barium enema, thyroid biopsy, lung biopsy, discuss the results of a diagnostic breast work-up with the patient etc
5. High-volume practices can lead to burn-out but this is true with any area of medicine. Do you think ER docs/hospitalists aren't burnt out? Its all about expectations and ones perspective. Have a friend in the south who is killing it in a high volume practice that also gives you 12 weeks vacation.

A voice of reason

 

[pathslides]

Path?

Path is definitely a life style specialty, and prob more so than rads after reading some responses in this thread. But I’m sure it varies everywhere. In my hospital the radiologists have a pretty cush job-at least that’s what they tell me when I chat with some of them in the lounge room.

 

[tco]

Report reveals severity of burnout by specialty

This suggests that radiology is doing better than most other specialties with regard to burnout.

Yeah, we're doing great. Only 1 out of every 2 is burnt out.

 

[youprobablydontknowme]

This is just my opinion and personal perspective, but I think whether a specialty is a “lifestyle specialty” or not depends on what your desirable lifestyle is, and if you choose a specialty that matches it. To most people, busting out 12 hour shifts in a busy trauma center as an EM doc would be considered miserable. But for the right person who loves that environment and work, they could consider it a lifestyle specialty for them.

As multiple people have already said, it’s all dependent on your values and perspective. An argument could be made that no medical specialty is a lifestyle specialty due to the amount of work, burden and frustration, but it sure beats working in a factory making $40k. You have to keep life in perspective and remember it’s all relative.

 

[GEToutLADYits6AM]

We just had a panel discussion with four radiologists in private practice. Here's a common salary scheme (since real salary info seems difficult to find, and it should be available to med students making this important decision):
-Full benefits (health/dental/retirement matching/etc.)
-7:30 am to 5:30 pm (10 hours)
-Four days a week
-Call every sixth weekend (7 weekends / year)
-9 weeks vacation
-160 plain films or 25-30 CTs/MRs per day
-Changing services each week
-$300K yearly salary
-Desirable location
-Can work more/less by taking/giving shifts from other radiologists in the group

That's 188 ten-hour shifts per year (just like the poster above said) at an average rate of $160 per hour.

This is a perfect lifestyle for me. Work (very) hard a few days, impact a huge number of patients, and be compensated well. Then, spend your free time doing research, hiking, programming, writing, raising kids, eating out, whatever.

Edit: I should add one more thing - all of the panelists worked in the same area as their residency, and all of them found their jobs by asking people they knew. None found jobs on ad boards. It's very important to do a residency (or fellowship) where you want to work long-term.

Lmao that is a scam. Terrible pay when you break it down hourly, would rather go into psych

 

[Mad Jack]

Path is definitely a life style specialty, and prob more so than rads after reading some responses in this thread. But I’m sure it varies everywhere. In my hospital the radiologists have a pretty cush job-at least that’s what they tell me when I chat with some of them in the lounge room.

Path? Hard to have a lifestyle when you can't find a job

 

[Smallfishtinypond]

I am in my 10th year private practice in community setting in the Midwest.

Life style debate: I will not debate what constitutes a good life style here. But I need to point out that, as a private practice radiologist and partner, I/we can mold the practice to the direction that the majority want. We did it. When I first started out and eventually made partner, the motto was to work as hard as possible, because we chose to. Was life style tough then? I don't know, it felt tolerable to me. Now, when the rest of the group are a bit older, we decide to slow down, spread out the work load, shorten the workday, hire more and make a little bit less money. Our life style now is much more relaxed than it was 8 years ago. Again, we chose to. Such flexibility may not be possible with other specialties.

BTW, $300K/year salary for radiologist is a joke. I would quit tomorrow if my salary got cut to $500K/yr.

 

[colbgw02]

I would think most other specialties have more flexibility as a function of having their own patient censuses. If a single ENT wants to work and make less, he/she simply sees and operates on fewer patients. I wouldn't think his/her partners would even notice or care, assuming that shared call duties are fulfilled. In radiology, the workload must be determined by the group, assuming that the schedule is equitable, making it harder for an individual to work his/her ideal amount.

 

[odyssey2]

I am in my 10th year private practice in community setting in the Midwest.

Life style debate: I will not debate what constitutes a good life style here. But I need to point out that, as a private practice radiologist and partner, I/we can mold the practice to the direction that the majority want. We did it. When I first started out and eventually made partner, the motto was to work as hard as possible, because we chose to. Was life style tough then? I don't know, it felt tolerable to me. Now, when the rest of the group are a bit older, we decide to slow down, spread out the work load, shorten the workday, hire more and make a little bit less money. Our life style now is much more relaxed than it was 8 years ago. Again, we chose to. Such flexibility may not be possible with other specialties.

BTW, $300K/year salary for radiologist is a joke. I would quit tomorrow if my salary got cut to $500K/yr.

Do you know your average hours/week then vs now? Would you say most pp radiologists are hitting 50-60 hours/week to get that salary?

 

[Smallfishtinypond]

Do you know your average hours/week then vs now? Would you say most pp radiologists are hitting 50-60 hours/week to get that salary?

Right now, I am about 40-45 hours/week including my unpaid admin/committee meeting hours. Prior to "slow down", I was probably in 50-55 hours/week range. Keep in mind that we have always had more than 15 weeks of vacation.