There are literally no jobs in Radiology. What happened? I have been doing this for 10 years and now nothing? What a lousy field. I should have done a medical or surgical specialty. 
Radiology jobs
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False.
Do you know of one? I have 10 years experience and have read 250,000 exams. I am board certified and have no malpractice claims. I have 12 state licenses. I do all modalities including many interventional procedures.
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Yes.
Congratulations. However, if this is your way of testing the job market, then I think you've adopted a poor strategy.
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Where you laid off?
This is not my way of testing the job market. I have talked to recruiters, (the few that remain in radiology). I have applied for everything on the ACR website and radworking. These are the two biggest job posting sites. Most jobs now want a specific fellowship. MSK, Neuro, mammo, IR.
I have never seen so many ads for Neurointerventionalists! Has any practicing radiologist seen an aneurysm coiled lately.
I am struggling to get interviews for fellowships for gods sake! They pay 50K per year!
I have never seen so many ads for Neurointerventionalists! Has any practicing radiologist seen an aneurysm coiled lately.
I am struggling to get interviews for fellowships for gods sake! They pay 50K per year!
Radiologists aren't laid off. Their contracts are not renewed. LOL
One of the partner IR docs in my old group was recently fired as well.
Every radiologist I know is shaking in his boots right now. I'm talking "partners!"
One of the partner IR docs in my old group was recently fired as well.
Every radiologist I know is shaking in his boots right now. I'm talking "partners!"
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If it's that bad, I recommend you apply for jobs overseas. In Saudi Arabia, my native country, American trained radiologists are paid +300K/year tax free, plus housing and schooling accommodation, annual traveling tickets, and CME allowance.
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Why is that? How can a partner be fired-doesn't that mean that they are part owners of their practice?
The new grads are taking the brunt of the imaging cuts and slow down in imaging volumes. Groups just don't hire to keep their incomes up. I remember when there were 1000 jobs on the ACR website and I could get interviews in any state. Now I cant get anything.
I just talked to a fellow in South Florida where I interviewed for a breast fellowship and she hasn't gotten a single interview yet.
I just talked to a fellow in South Florida where I interviewed for a breast fellowship and she hasn't gotten a single interview yet.
Dr Awesome. There are no "owners" in Radiology. The vast majority of groups hold hospital service contracts. Partner only means you get an equal share of the pie.
The lack of ownership is what makes rads a bad field in my opinion.
The lack of ownership is what makes rads a bad field in my opinion.
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I guess I don't see what would make radiology such a bad specialty all of a sudden. Why wouldn't this firing/non renewal of contract occur with other specialties? And from my limited understanding/knowledge, there is a large number of private practices that own their own equipment and everything else. Why would they fire rads-hospitals cannot function without radiologists.
You must not be a rads resident. ER, Path, and Anesthesia have the same issues.
There isn't a single attending left where I trained in Chicago 10 years ago. A new group has the contract.
Radiology is being gobbled up by national corporations that take over the hospital contract and use mainly tele-radiologists who will work for nothing so they can live somewhere nice like LA.
I do not know of a radiology group that owns its own equipment. I'm fairly knowledgeable in the field.
There isn't a single attending left where I trained in Chicago 10 years ago. A new group has the contract.
Radiology is being gobbled up by national corporations that take over the hospital contract and use mainly tele-radiologists who will work for nothing so they can live somewhere nice like LA.
I do not know of a radiology group that owns its own equipment. I'm fairly knowledgeable in the field.
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I am not a rads resident, I simply followed your question here since I replied to you in the derm post given that I'm coming from derm.
So all major specialties in medicine are a disaster is what you are saying? I find that hard to believe. I have plenty of colleagues in ER and anesthesia who have had no issues finding a job for one and that are paid quite well for the work they do.
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Sorry to hear about your situation, bcovert. The job market remains tuff for another 6 months when all the effect of politics in healthcare is somewhat understood, and groups have better plan. It is also true that large company is swallowing small local groups. I am comfortable in the midwest but in no way to be sure about the status of our contract. We, as radiologist provide important services and the job market will eventually swing with its cycle, again. Hang in there.
This too shall pass, my friend.
This too shall pass, my friend.
Thanks for the encouraging words klpham71.
I did manage to save millions so I can weather the storm. I do want out of radiology though. I want staying power in the southwest that rads cant provide.
I'm glad I hit the gravy train in the midwest when I got out of residency.
There is more to life than money though. I have lived in nasty places and put my life on hold for far too long.
I did manage to save millions so I can weather the storm. I do want out of radiology though. I want staying power in the southwest that rads cant provide.
I'm glad I hit the gravy train in the midwest when I got out of residency.
There is more to life than money though. I have lived in nasty places and put my life on hold for far too long.
What have I said that is foolish you idiot?
Are all medical students this ignorant. Our profession is going to the dogs. Doctors just want to be glorifed hospital employees who don't have a clue. :-(
I want you to command- copy/past and then print out what you've said so far on this forum. Then I want you to read it again in a few months once you've cooled off. Then evaluate how absolutely foolish you sound. Why is an attending posting on "student doctor.net" forums whining about his life and saying about how awesome he is (all modalities including some IR).
Then tell me if I am an ignorant medical student or a wiser but younger man.
For clarification...
I wasn't crossing my fingers to invalidate your statement improving the radiological job outlook but rather hoping you're a troll because if you're a real person that speaks poorly to radiology.
Yeah. These trolls actually scare me out of radiology to some extent.
I love radiology but I'm terrified of Obamacare. I want to make a good living.
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Can't speak for gas or path, but there are plenty of ER jobs. Plenty.
There is a touch of truth in what the OP says.
The job market is tight right now. ER and Hospitalist has the best job market among all medical specialties.
Finding a job is really dependent on your connections and where you have been trained. I was very positive about job market as me and most of my co-residents could find decent jobs in the area of our training which is a very desirable coastal city. However, recently I have seen bunch of graduates of small programs that have trouble finding a job in desirable location even after finishing fellowship in a Big name or doing 2 fellowships.
Let me be very frank about it. If you go to a Top academic program and make a lot of connections, you will be fine finding a job in a desirable location with some compromises. However, if you are going to a community program or a small academic center remote from your desirable location, it is very very tough to break into desirable locations market including large coastal cities. Even the market for mid west medium size cities is saturated.
You may argue forever about equal level of training in community vs academic programs. However, these days it does not work. Most jobs are filled internally through knowing people and most of them are graduates of the academic center in the area. For example if you want to work in Boston, SF or San Diego, almost all of the jobs are filled internally in these areas by graduates of Harvard, UCSF or UCSD through word of mouth or friendship with prior graduates. Each of these centers have 10-14 residents in each class and 30-40 fellows. By the end of your residency/fellowship, you will know about 200 people, most of which are working in the same area.
Long story short, if you want to break into desirable markets, you have to be proactive with a lot of connections and also you have to be a graduate of a big name program (residency + fellowship). On the other hand, you won't be out of work, but expect ending up in rural flyover country.
The job market is tight right now. ER and Hospitalist has the best job market among all medical specialties.
Finding a job is really dependent on your connections and where you have been trained. I was very positive about job market as me and most of my co-residents could find decent jobs in the area of our training which is a very desirable coastal city. However, recently I have seen bunch of graduates of small programs that have trouble finding a job in desirable location even after finishing fellowship in a Big name or doing 2 fellowships.
Let me be very frank about it. If you go to a Top academic program and make a lot of connections, you will be fine finding a job in a desirable location with some compromises. However, if you are going to a community program or a small academic center remote from your desirable location, it is very very tough to break into desirable locations market including large coastal cities. Even the market for mid west medium size cities is saturated.
You may argue forever about equal level of training in community vs academic programs. However, these days it does not work. Most jobs are filled internally through knowing people and most of them are graduates of the academic center in the area. For example if you want to work in Boston, SF or San Diego, almost all of the jobs are filled internally in these areas by graduates of Harvard, UCSF or UCSD through word of mouth or friendship with prior graduates. Each of these centers have 10-14 residents in each class and 30-40 fellows. By the end of your residency/fellowship, you will know about 200 people, most of which are working in the same area.
Long story short, if you want to break into desirable markets, you have to be proactive with a lot of connections and also you have to be a graduate of a big name program (residency + fellowship). On the other hand, you won't be out of work, but expect ending up in rural flyover country.
The radiology job market sounds as bad as the lawyer job market. Worse even, since radiologists can't open their own offices.
It is not as bad as lawyer job market at all. I can say it is much much better than lawyer job market. Still you can find a job and I guarantee that you won't be out of work if you are flexible to move to small towns in mid-west. The truth is lawyers practically do not have any job outside big cities, the exact opposite of doctors including radiologists.
Radiologists traditionally had biggest private offices (i.e. imaging centers). Opening their own offices is irrelevant because almost nobody can open their own office these days in medicine because of financial reason. The best job markets belong to hospitalists and ER, none of them really office based.
It is really interesting to me how a premed, law student or med student jump into a discussion without knowing what exactly is the dynamics of job market and the factors involved. If you even knew very basic things about radiology and medicine in general, you would make more sense.
In general, when people claim to be knowledgeable they aren't. Why is everyone feeding the troll?
D
deleted116380
ER may be nice right now, but with those docs making some of the most $ per hour of work, those salaries will come down in the future. Whatever is found to be highly profitable will end up having a lot of people either go into it or cuts made on it and bring it back to reality. Unless you want to live in the middle of nowhere and are the only doc.
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Job market is not fantastic, but there are jobs out there... Problem is, they may not be in the location you desire. Also, salaries/partnerships my not be what you desire. I can tell you that locums work is scarce and the pay has decreasd dramatically from what it was only 4 years ago.
I suspect if you look hard enough, you will get hired. Consider VA jobs, military contractor positions and possibly a move out of state (if you can get your family to sign on).
Stay positive and good luck!
I suspect if you look hard enough, you will get hired. Consider VA jobs, military contractor positions and possibly a move out of state (if you can get your family to sign on).
Stay positive and good luck!
Job market was always tough in coastal cities. But these days there are pratically no job advertisement in coastal cities and within 2 hours drive. There are not any job advertisement also in midwest big cities. The only job postings are in boonies. The truth is still there are a number of good jobs in big cities, but they are given only by connections. 5 years ago the only in NY city you needed to pull wires to get a GOOD job, now you have to have 2 fellowships and connections to get a job 3 hours drive from NYC.
Anyway, I think it will open up in 4-5 years. Half of working rads are older than 55. It is probably more in large cities, because of more financial needs. In my group, almost 20 which is more than half of group, will retire in the next 10 years, if they don't die.
Anyway, I think it will open up in 4-5 years. Half of working rads are older than 55. It is probably more in large cities, because of more financial needs. In my group, almost 20 which is more than half of group, will retire in the next 10 years, if they don't die.
Anyway, I think it will open up in 4-5 years. Half of working rads are older than 55. It is probably more in large cities, because of more financial needs. In my group, almost 20 which is more than half of group, will retire in the next 10 years, if they don't die.
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I'm not denying this, but where did you get this information?
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I'm not denying this, but where did you get this information?
The job market will open up when rads realize they will have to make less because of declining reimbursement. This will take a few years though. Have time to wait? Time to do that neurointerventional fellowship you always pined for. LOL
Neurointerventional fellowship is a dead end road.
Most community hospitals do not have acute stroke service.
The life style sucks. You have to sit at home and get called to go and do plumbing.
In many practices Neurosurgeons start to cover the service, though they are not as motivated as they were once. Most NS can make almost twice by establishing a spine service, which has also much better life style.
Anyway, if you like it, go for it. But the job will be confined to big academic centers or big regional level 1 stroke centers.
IMO, NeuroIR, is another cardiothoracic surgery. High end procedure, challenging, but low demand.
Most community hospitals do not have acute stroke service.
The life style sucks. You have to sit at home and get called to go and do plumbing.
In many practices Neurosurgeons start to cover the service, though they are not as motivated as they were once. Most NS can make almost twice by establishing a spine service, which has also much better life style.
Anyway, if you like it, go for it. But the job will be confined to big academic centers or big regional level 1 stroke centers.
IMO, NeuroIR, is another cardiothoracic surgery. High end procedure, challenging, but low demand.
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What makes the job market so tight currently? And what are realistic, current starting salaries?
Please no sky is falling comments. I think it would be very helpful for those of us just starting out to hear about the current and factual realities of the field.
Is the job market likely to improve in the next few years, are too many residents being trained or what exactly?
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There are no straightforward, simple answers to these questions. There are myriad factors at play here.
Part of the problem is that radiologists stopped retiring when the economy tanked back in 2008 and 2009. There have also been, and will be, reimbursement cuts. Rather than accept a decrease in salary, most radiologists have opted to just work harder and delay hiring.
I personally believe that the job market will steadily improve over the coming 5 to 10 years. However, I don't think we will ever see anything like the boom times from the early part of this millennium. A disproportionately high percentage of radiologists are above the age of 55. They have to retire at some point, and as the economy improves, younger radiologists will retire at a more usual age.
Lots of people are upset about the job market, but stories of truly unemployed radiologists are so rare that they might as well be nonexistent. You might not get the job that you want in the location that you want, but it's not like you're going to be collecting an unemployment check.
It's important to go into this field with realistic expectations. Do radiology because you love it, and the money will just be an added bonus, if it's still even there. I think a huge disconnect remains between the lifestyle and reimbursement of private practice radiology and the expectations of recently graduated residents and fellows. These folks chose radiology in the mid part of the last decade, when the market was extraordinarily different.
Current medical students interested in radiology should understand that what they experience in residency programs is not reflective of daily life for most radiologists. Radiology is not, and has not been, a lifestyle specialty for many years now. Sure, the money is still very, very good, but you will work your tail off for that cash. I expect this trend to continue, as private practices try to "take back the night" from teleradiology companies in large part due to declining reimbursement.
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So from what you are saying, it seems like the workflow is pretty high pressure/high volume then huh?
As far as reimbursement cuts, can you elaborate on that? Do you expect cuts every year, and for how long?
I guess I don't quite understand how much more they can cut - at some point, they will have radiologists working for free it seems if they keep cutting.
And once this stabilizes, what range do you expect radiologist salary to be at?
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For the most part, yes. Some groups decide to be "lifestyle" groups, meaning the partners are willing to accept less money for fewer studies read per day and/or more time off. But the volume is still orders of magnitude higher than most residencies. There is always academia, but the pay drop-off is substantial, or you could take a government job (VA or military contractor).
As for how long, who knows? Suffice it to say that medical imaging is a huge percentage of healthcare costs in this country. That makes for an inviting target. Healthcare expenses are unsustainable at their current level, so something will get cut. We can all make reasonable arguments for why it should be someone or something else, but John Q. Public doesn't care if your salary goes down X% because you're a rich doctor. My opinion is that we need to wrestle healthcare away from the health and malpractice insurance companies. That is, grow the pie for physicians rather than worry about who is getting a bigger slice. That's easier said than done, because insurance companies have a much more effective lobby than physicians in general or radiologists specifically. Also, physicians are very good at fighting with each other rather than uniting against outside influences. I don't have any good answers here except to say we should all contribute to RADPAC.
Probably more than you think. Radiologists have a decade of training invested in their craft. We don't know how and don't want to do anything else with our lives. If the choice is between earning $200K per year as a radiologist, retraining in a different specialty, or leaving medicine altogether, I suspect most of us would choose the former. There is a tipping point, of course, I just don't know where it is. That's not to say I think things will become Draconian vis-a-vis salary - just that people need to adjust their expectations accordingly.
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So I am assuming that the expectation for salaries to stay in the 300k+ range is not reasonable and that primary care salaries will be hitting radiology in the near future? No wonder people are fleeing radiology in droves! Ahh!
Man, I feel like I wasted a decade of my life! I did not realize the US did not value us to any extent. Should have been a consultant or something.
This is depressing to say the least.
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So I am assuming that the expectation for salaries to stay in the 300k+ range is not reasonable and that primary care salaries will be hitting radiology in the near future? No wonder people are fleeing radiology in droves! Ahh!
Man, I feel like I wasted a decade of my life! I did not realize the US did not value us to any extent. Should have been a consultant or something.
This is depressing to say the least.
I don't think I'm as pessimistic as you sound. I think salaries in the $300K range are highly realistic, maybe even higher. It's just a matter of how hard we'll have to work for it.
The good news is that medical imaging is essential to the modern delivery of healthcare, so future radiologists should rest easy that we'll at least have a seat at the table. I also think the rise of mid-levels bodes well for radiologists, since I think that PAs and NPs will order more tests for the same level of acuity than their MD counterparts. Also, too many people fret over subspecialists reading their own studies (which is unrealistic for many reasons), when that ignores the fact that specialists won't be ordering the lion's share of tests in the future.
The huge unknown is ACA. If it speeds us to a single-payer system, then who knows what will happen. In the short term, the ACA could be a good thing for radiologists. Depending on location, a substantial portion of a radiologist's practice is essentially charity care. If the ACA succeeds in getting more people insured, then that could help our bottom line. I'm not saying that's how it will play out, just that there are tons of things still to be worked out.
I hate to be cliche, but cliches exist for a reason. Choose radiology because it's what you enjoy; the rest is just icing. That's easy for me to say because I think I'd rather not practice medicine than be a non-radiologist physician. If someone is on the fence about radiology and gets scared off by the market, then so be it. I don't think we'll run short of future radiologists, and I think it's good for the field to have people who are passionate about it.
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I agree that passion is important, but if one's dedication, work for over a decade, etc not pay off then I don't think making this sacrifice makes sense. We shouldn't just "count ourselves lucky" to get a job, it should be a given and I think we should be deserving of a decent career, and not have to work to the bone. I don't think that's too much to ask is it?
Depressing. I don't think I should have to work 60 hours a week after over a decade of training to make 300k+.
I have been in the business for 10 years. Few radiologists work that many hours. Usual work day is 8-9 hours with occasional weekends and holidays. Vacation is holding at 8 weeks. Starting salaries are still 300K. This is if you can find a job.
Autonomy is the biggest issue. Radiologists are quickly becoming commodities. Nighthawk companies are taking over all small town contracts as encroaching on the big city markets too. Corporations hire and fire frequently making it hard to put down roots somewhere. A doctor should be a respected member of the community, not a temp worker.
I would never do rads again even though I have saved millions in only 10 years. many of my surgical and specialist colleagues have made as much or more while maintaining independence and having their own practices that are not subject to the whims of the hospital or a large management company.
