Rank list: Honest vs defensive

[MaximusMDPhD]

Program directors and those in the know:

I'm interested in two programs in close geographic proximity, both interviews went well. One is my home institution who would probably rank me to match if I told them they were #1 (Institution A) but they are in fact #2. They have gobs of opportunities and a great culture. The other program is my actual, heartfelt #1 (Institution B). They have gobs of opportunities, with a few that would be hard/impossible to pursue at A.

I e-mailed B after my interview telling them how much I liked the program - hoping they would respond with some kind of clue as to their interest in me as an applicant. I mentioned that I would be in touch after my final interview Jan 5th. They have not responded and it has been 3 weeks. I understand some of that is holiday time.

SO, in January do I e-mail B and tell them that they are #1, try to catch their second look, get face time, and express more interest? It's possible I would fall out of A's list if I don't tell them soonish that I want in. In that case, if I swing and miss on my top choice I could by default miss on my second choice and end up on the opposite coast, uproot the family and pull my kid away from his grandparents, pull the wife from her job, etc. My rank list will include 7 institutions.

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[splik]

well it is actually a match violation for a program to ask you how you intend to rank them, which is essentially what your home program is doing. also it would be stupid of them to rank you much lower if you weren't ranking them #1. most top programs going much further down the rank list than their ranked to match bit. also "ranked to match" is such a vague term that it may not even mean what you think it means. there is no agreed upon definition. applicants often think it means you will be ranked within the top x where x is the total number of positions, but i know several programs that do not mean it to be this at all.

you should rank as intended. i have to tell i am completely unimpressed by your home institution. if this is how they treat you as an applicant you may be better off not matching there anyway. i highly doubt they wouldn't rank you if you didn't tell them they're your #1.

 

[OH SYNAPSE]

well it is actually a match violation for a program to ask you how you intend to rank them, which is essentially what your home program is doing...i have to tell i am completely unimpressed by your home institution. if this is how they treat you as an applicant you may be better off not matching there anyway. i highly doubt they wouldn't rank you if you didn't tell them they're your #1.

I agree with everything you said in the middle, but I'm wondering if you're over reading the statements about program A as I didn't read anything that would suggest a match violation, only that the OP is making assumptions about the impact of love letters or lack thereof.

Do we know that Program A is actually treating the applicant like this, or is this simply the over anxious perception of many applicants that if program x doesn't hear that they're #1 then they will likely drop you on the rank list? My initial read is that the OP, who is concerned that a no-response to a thank you email 3 weeks ago might mean bad news, is also making a guess about how the home institution (A) will react without a clear #1 love letter in the next few weeks. If I'm wrong and home program A indeed has made it clear that they need to be #1 and have asked the OP where they fall on the rank list, then I agree with the entirety of splik's post.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

I e-mailed B after my interview telling them how much I liked the program - hoping they would respond with some kind of clue as to their interest in me as an applicant. I mentioned that I would be in touch after my final interview Jan 5th. They have not responded and it has been 3 weeks. I understand some of that is holiday time.

Some places do not respond to such e-mails. Don't take it personally.

SO, in January do I e-mail B and tell them that they are #1, try to catch their second look, get face time, and express more interest? It's possible I would fall out of A's list if I don't tell them soonish that I want in. In that case, if I swing and miss on my top choice I could by default miss on my second choice and end up on the opposite coast, uproot the family and pull my kid away from his grandparents, pull the wife from her job, etc. My rank list will include 7 institutions.

I feel like you're over-thinking this by assuming that much hinges on post-interview correspondence. Just do your part and rank the programs in the order that you prefer them. I wouldn't e-mail "B" again.

 

[DokterMom]

Send a love letter (or verbal for your home program) to both programs stating how much you love the program, how well you can see yourself fitting in there, and that the opportunities they offer sound like just what you're looking for. Don't promise to rank them #1. They can't ask; you don't have to tell.

Then rank according to your honest preference.

 

[MaximusMDPhD]

To clarify: home institution has NOT asked me how I intend to rank. But I have friends/acquaintances in the home residency program who have asked me. Clinic professors have also explicitly asked me if I plan to stay.

Yes, I am trying to read the future in the chicken bones. No response after a love letter just plain stings.

 

[Armadillos]

I didn’t read any of your post because I doubt would change my advice: Just rank programs in the order you wish to attend. There is no reason to ever do anything otherwise.

 

[wolfvgang22]

If it makes you feel any better, very few programs ever responded to my "You're #1" cards or emails, and I still matched at my top choice and everyone was delighted by graduation.

Never tell anybody on your list they aren't #1, by the way! You never know what might happen. In my experience, sometimes when I have "settled" for my so-called second choice, it turned out great in the long run. In retrospect I would have regretted getting what I thought I wanted before. This applies to education, women, cars, pets, deserts,and houses. Enjoy the journey.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Rank according to your preference, PERIOD.

I expect I will be repeating this post at least weekly for the next 6 weeks.

 

[Celexa]

Rank according to your preference, PERIOD.

I expect I will be repeating this post at least weekly for the next 6 weeks.

Not the OP, but ranking per my preference is the only part of this I know I should do. It's the post-interview communication dance that's nerve-wracking

 

[OldPsychDoc]

Not the OP, but ranking per my preference is the only part of this I know I should do. It's the post-interview communication dance that's nerve-wracking

Weekly Repost, Part 2:
Your polite words of thanks are appreciated, but not required. We will not read into the presence or absence of any special verbiage. Our response or lack thereof bears NO RELATION to your rank order. Thank you for all of your careful consideration of our programs. Good luck in March.

 

[Celexa]

Weekly Repost, Part 2:
Your polite words of thanks are appreciated, but not required. We will not read into the presence or absence of any special verbiage. Our response or lack thereof bears NO RELATION to your rank order. Thank you for all of your careful consideration of our programs. Good luck in March.

What's your advice for handling communication when programs reach out to you, either with email or calls? Particularly programs you're ranking high but not necessarily first? Not as replies to thank-yous etc, but contact from programs after all interviews are done. I've been told this may happen but no guidance on the best way to handle it.

 

[saucin13]

What's your advice for handling communication when programs reach out to you, either with email or calls?

Interested in this as well. It almost feels like a 2nd interview. I was called ~3 wks post interview and asked if I had addl questions. I was caught off guard and on my way to airport and asked if I could call them back ‍♀️...I then prepared questions... but don’t know if I should walk around with talking points for each program or just state my interest in program for whoever calls ‍♀️

 

[saucin13]

But to answer your question, id rank B first and send interest emails to both. And Only tell B that they are your number 1. When asked about whether you’d like to stay at program, you can state all of the perks of your home program and that it’d Be great to train there. Just bc it’s not your number 1 doesn’t mean that it wouldn’t be a great thing to match there.

 

[tellme_areyoufree]

Weekly Repost, Part 2:
Your polite words of thanks are appreciated, but not required. We will not read into the presence or absence of any special verbiage. Our response or lack thereof bears NO RELATION to your rank order. Thank you for all of your careful consideration of our programs. Good luck in March.

OldPsychDoc, sometimes I come on this forum just to see how and in what manner you're telling people to "calm the f*** down" today. (It's actually very helpful to me as I have my own panics about all of this).

 

[Mad Jack]

The Match is applicant preference driven. Rank who you want higher, period.

 

[OldPsychDoc]

OldPsychDoc, sometimes I come on this forum just to see how and in what manner you're telling people to "calm the f*** down" today. (It's actually very helpful to me as I have my own panics about all of this).

There's always the Xanax body pillow...

 

[OldPsychDoc]

What's your advice for handling communication when programs reach out to you, either with email or calls? Particularly programs you're ranking high but not necessarily first? Not as replies to thank-yous etc, but contact from programs after all interviews are done. I've been told this may happen but no guidance on the best way to handle it.

Sorry--forgot to answer this.

You don't NEED to do anything.
If the program is appropriately following Match rules--and yes, every program I know personally does so religiously--they're just trying to remind you that a)they exist and b)they like you enough to list you.
They are not asking for subtle hints of your preferences that you need to subtly reply to with magic words and phrases.
If you do choose to reply (assuming that you don't have any of the lingering actual questions they're giving you the opportunity to ask if you need to), a polite "Good to hear from you--I enjoyed my interview..." is more than sufficient.
Good luck.*

(* And by "Good luck", I sincerely mean "Best Wishes**--Neither of us has any clue how this will actually turn out", so kick back and have a beer and enjoy the football playoffs...)

(** And it's crazy that I actually have to spell this out, but I'm not dismissing you as an "also-ran". I'm really just wishing you well***.)

(*** Yes, REALLY! Stop reading between the lines of every damn word I write****.)

(**** No, I'm not mad at you. No, this won't affect your ranking...)

 

[J ROD]

Sometimes the less you say is better. Take my advice. Just rank them as you wish and the results will be here before you know it. The love talk rarely helps and probably hurts you more.

If a program sends you an email, just respond politely and express genuine interest. I would not start any contact besides sending a thank you email.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

Decided to save time by printing that up on little mini business cards and handing them out to all the med students on clerkship orientation.

Rank according to your preference, PERIOD.

I expect I will be repeating this post at least weekly for the next 6 weeks.

 

[UTsksk]

The difficult part about ranking is the better program for myself or the program that's best for my family.

 

[3lefts]

The difficult part about ranking is the better program for myself or the program that's best for my family.

Exactly.


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[kagman]

The difficult part about ranking is the better program for myself or the program that's best for my family.

So very true.


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[OldPsychDoc]

The difficult part about ranking is the better program for myself or the program that's best for my family.

My advice depends on who you mean by "family".

If it's parents, etc., and trying to make them proud because you're at a "prestige" name program, even though you feel you fit better at someplace less prestigious--then choose for YOU. (An exception might be considered if you're worried about aging/ailing parents that you would want to stay close by for.)

If you're talking about spouse/partner and kids--tread carefully. "Happy Wife=Happy Life". You'll be a better resident if your home life is stable, your partner is fulfilled in their life mission, and your kids are enjoying life and school. Most likely the incremental difference in program fit and quality will not outweigh these. Make sure that you're talking about all these factors together, and doing your best to make this a joint decision.

Good luck.

 

[UTsksk]

My advice depends on who you mean by "family".

If it's parents, etc., and trying to make them proud because you're at a "prestige" name program, even though you feel you fit better at someplace less prestigious--then choose for YOU. (An exception might be considered if you're worried about aging/ailing parents that you would want to stay close by for.)

If you're talking about spouse/partner and kids--tread carefully. "Happy Wife=Happy Life". You'll be a better resident if your home life is stable, your partner is fulfilled in their life mission, and your kids are enjoying life and school. Most likely the incremental difference in program fit and quality will not outweigh these. Make sure that you're talking about all these factors together, and doing your best to make this a joint decision.

Good luck.

Thanks for the advice. It's in regard to my wife and kids. They are having a say in how I rank as they should.

 

[masterofmonkeys]

My advice depends on who you mean by "family".

If it's parents, etc., and trying to make them proud because you're at a "prestige" name program, even though you feel you fit better at someplace less prestigious--then choose for YOU. (An exception might be considered if you're worried about aging/ailing parents that you would want to stay close by for.)

If you're talking about spouse/partner and kids--tread carefully. "Happy Wife=Happy Life". You'll be a better resident if your home life is stable, your partner is fulfilled in their life mission, and your kids are enjoying life and school. Most likely the incremental difference in program fit and quality will not outweigh these. Make sure that you're talking about all these factors together, and doing your best to make this a joint decision.

Good luck.

On the other side of this there can be some pretty massive quality of life differences between the harder programs and the lighter programs call and work-wise, especially the first two years. So you have to weigh that too. You being miserable at work because it makes your spouse/kids happy will quickly turn into you being miserable at home and now no one is happy.

Also spousal expectations. 70+ hour work weeks at a program that doesn't allow moonlighting in a city spouse/kids prefer might not be the best thing for any of you in the end.

 

[MaximusMDPhD]

Just to circle back, I decided to rank honestly. I plainly told my top choice they were #1. Now getting unambiguous reassurance I'll match there. Barring match day surprises, it's an SDN success story.