Rank of Founding Five for More Competitive Specialities

[Fishwithadeagle]

Is there any objective match data as to which of the founding five are better at matching into competitive specialties or better residency programs in FM or IM?

I'm predominately interested in KCU vs DMU vs PCOM vs CCOM.

Between DMU and CCOM, which would you say is better for more competitive IM residencies.

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[Goro]

Fool's errand.

 

[deleted480308]

I’ve never heard of the founding five

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

I’ve never heard of the founding five

KCU, ATSU, PCOM, CCOM, DMU are the five original schools before the second wave of DO schools formed in 1969. They are generally regarded as having the most established programs with the longest lasting ties of the DO schools. This does slightly ignore state DO programs that have connections through the university, rather than strictly through the medical program.

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

Fool's errand.

Why would that be?

 

[Goro]

Why would that be?

Because there is no ranking for DO schools in the same way that USN&WR does. Which in itself is worthless except int heminds of pre-meds and med school deans.

You have to look at match lists for those schools and see who is sending grads into IM. Then ask our wise residents on SDN as to which programs are good.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

PCOM because of all the home programs. Although it isn't looking good for their ortho program, which is on the brink of closure.

Competitive specialties come out of any school though, for the people that hustle and are self starters who work towards their goal from day 1. One of the most coveted DO ortho candidates this year came out of a school that is widely regarded as trash.

 

[Sephirakra]

KCU, ATSU, PCOM, CCOM, DMU are the five original schools before the second wave of DO schools formed in 1969. They are generally regarded as having the most established programs with the longest lasting ties of the DO schools. This does slightly ignore state DO programs that have connections through the university, rather than strictly through the medical program.

Those aren't actually the original five osteopathic schools. They're just the oldest ones that have survived.

ETA: Some of them are in the first five schools founded, but not all are.

 

[hallowmann]

Founding 5 doesn't mean anything. You'd probably be able to have similar results coming out of almost any of the schools that opened before 2005.

While these maybe be the oldest, don't be surprised if outcomes are the same or worse than many other DO schools.

 

[Goro]

CUSOM, a new school, had excellent match list last year, BTW.

 

[Cornfed101]

RVU also has a good match list, and it is a fairly new school. An IM match at Case, people matched into ophtho, ENT, derm, and neurosurgery

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

Founding 5 doesn't mean anything. You'd probably be able to have similar results coming out of almost any of the schools that opened before 2005.

While these maybe be the oldest, don't be surprised if outcomes are the same or worse than many other DO schools.

So Lecom vs Pcom doesn't matter?

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

This has been a relatively interesting thread. RVU did concern me due to their new status and for profit nature, but hey I guess they are placing decently. CUSOM I've heard good things about, but the location kills me a bit.

Thank you all for the help! Time to get stressed about finding what residency programs I'm trying to get into and talk to people in those programs for what the PD's want.

 

[hallowmann]

So Lecom vs Pcom doesn't matter?

In terms of outcome, yeah, sounds about right.

 

[Kardio]

RVU also has a good match list, and it is a fairly new school. An IM match at Case, people matched into ophtho, ENT, derm, and neurosurgery

And a categorical (not primary care track) IM at UWash.

Home | Internal Medicine Residency Program

depts.washington.edu

 

[Goro]

So Lecom vs Pcom doesn't matter?

Nope. LECOM does have less tuition, but mandatory lecture attendance and a dress code. Hence, I'd lean to PCOM.

 

[Chibucks15]

Nope. LECOM does have less tuition, but mandatory lecture attendance and a dress code. Hence, I'd lean to PCOM.

This. Mandatory attendance and a dress code would absolutely kill me. Don’t underestimate how much you love staying in pajamas all day to study it was a major perk

 

[Goro]

This. Mandatory attendance and a dress code would absolutely kill me. Don’t underestimate how much you love staying in pajamas all day to study it was a major perk

I believe med schools should respect the learning modalities and choices of adult learners, especially when it comes to mere passive learning.

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

Nope. LECOM does have less tuition, but mandatory lecture attendance and a dress code. Hence, I'd lean to PCOM.

Do you think the research at Midwestern could led to better matching than DMU given the new step 1 p/f system, or is that all hogwash

 

[Goro]

Do you think the research at Midwestern could led to better matching than DMU

What research?

 

[Angus Avagadro]

PCOM. There are 4 other universities in philly, Temple, Drexel, Jefferson(Kimmel), and Penn. There are opportunities for students to rotate at these places and make connections.
LECOM is significantly cheaper, has had good board scores and match lists in the past. Most of LECOM is PBL . Their main campus offers lecture, PBL, and independent study. All other campuses are only PBL. If PBL is for you, the mandatory lectures should be minimized. If cost is not a factor, go PCOM. If you are floating the entire bill with loans, then LECOM.

 

[DO_or_Die]

Is there any objective match data as to which of the founding five are better at matching into competitive specialties or better residency programs in FM or IM?

I'm predominately interested in KCU vs DMU vs PCOM vs CCOM.

Between DMU and CCOM, which would you say is better for more competitive IM residencies.

Go with wherever is cheaper, that was my criteria for picking. Second, I turned down KCU because I did not like the vibe that I saw from their students, I hear good things of DMU and PCOM. CCOM is way too expensive. Any of the schools will get you where you need to go, take my advice and save the money that could be put into retirement/housing later.

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

What research?

They have a dedicated research facility that is putting out a decent amount of pubs, along with a ton of connections to the Chicago area, which has a lot going on. Just helps w/ matching later on.

 

[Goro]

They have a dedicated research facility that is putting out a decent amount of pubs, along with a ton of connections to the Chicago area, which has a lot going on. Just helps w/ matching later on.

Ahhh, that is a factor.

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

Ahhh, that is a factor.

Previous thread here basically goes through this discussion, interestingly. Basically, tuition may be worth it if you want easier access, but any of the better DO schools will more than provide for you.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

There's a lot of information on here suggesting that LECOM could be a poor decision for sanity.

Sanity? What? Professional dress? What a friggin nightmare! Skip the mandatory attendance by not doing the traditional lecture path and do PBL. OMM and H and P will be mandatory at any DO school.
As far as tieing a tie or wearing business casual, I find it a small trade off for the 40 to 80k difference in tuition over 4 years. If sitting in your jammies is worth the extra tuition, go for it. It wouldn't be my choice. But that's why we are all different.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Hoooo boy this is gonna be quite the response.

Professional dress sucks balls if you plan on studying at the school. I wore a dress shirt and tie w/ dress shoes for years during high school. I don't want to do this again, even if I don't mind it that much. I don't want to go to a place where I have to change right before I walk in. It really isn't that big of a deal, but it just sets the stage for the overbearingness of the school.

PBL is not comparable to the PBL done at other MD schools. It is much less structured and has a great potential to go off track. Fewer materials are provided, and additionally, I would rather prefer to pay to learn from a professional than obtain all the information myself when I'm paying for it. I don't want a DIY medical school.

Speaking of DIY medical school, that's now the independent study program. Literally DIY med school.

No water and food in lectures or outside cafeteria? Get the f out, come on now.

Not paying rotation preceptors? I wonder why students never have consistent rotations and some completely get screwed.

Erie PA isn't too bad, but the other two locations suck, and Erie is predominately Lecture.

No cadaver lab? Nice to have, not essential, but it seems like a rite of passage for medical school.

Internal issues, exam testing issues, overbearing administration that calls out people and threatens with dismissal for questioning the program, a general feeling of despair among the students telling the interviewees not to go there. I could go on and on here.

We asked a student what he did for fun and his response was, "You know that half wall people have in their kitchens? Yeah, I stare at that with the lights off contemplating where I went wrong in life."

So to be clear, you can be a doctor out of LECOM. You can place well, as shown by their match results. Will it be easy? No, just like it won't be easy anywhere. But will it make it harder when you're that uncomfortable? Absolutely. Can it screw with your rotations? Absolutely. Is it possible that the school could hurt you? Absolutely (but this comes down more to internal issues with grading and rotations)

You have just described most of the issues at all other med schools, save for no drinks in auditorium. I can say this as I have taught or trained students at no less than 6 medical schools. How do you think med student rotations will fare as more MD, and DO students will continue to enter new schools in the next few years? There will be thousands more than at this moment. I have no idea where schools will find places to absorb the thousands of new students. It's not like they are building new university hospitals every week..
As far as med school administration being rigid with their policies, they have to uphold their policies. They get in trouble when they dont. They cannot accommodate every request, especially if say the student has to travel to a rotation site and considers it a burden.Rotation sites aren't easy to find. Paying Drs a stipend to take students in no way replaces the cost of teaching. Clinicians working on a productivity basis dont take students anymore as they slow them down and might have a financial impact, i.e., no bonus. My wife is one of them. So I will end with what my financial planner said to me years ago when I looked for tax relief. He said, " There isnt any. Get over it. It's the cost of doing business".
In the case for med students, find the best fit where you can be accepted. Its stressful, so do your best to mitigate it. Its the cost of getting your degree so you can pursue your dream.

 

[Fishwithadeagle]

You have just described most of the issues at all other med schools, save for no drinks in auditorium. I can say this as I have taught or trained students at no less than 6 medical schools. How do you think med student rotations will fare as more MD, and DO students will continue to enter new schools in the next few years? There will be thousands more than at this moment. I have no idea where schools will find places to absorb the thousands of new students. It's not like they are building new university hospitals every week..
As far as med school administration being rigid with their policies, they have to uphold their policies. They get in trouble when they dont. They cannot accommodate every request, especially if say the student has to travel to a rotation site and considers it a burden.Rotation sites aren't easy to find. Paying Drs a stipend to take students in no way replaces the cost of teaching. Clinicians working on a productivity basis dont take students anymore as they slow them down and might have a financial impact, i.e., no bonus. My wife is one of them. So I will end with what my financial planner said to me years ago when I looked for tax relief. He said, " There isnt any. Get over it. It's the cost of doing business".
In the case for med students, find the best fit where you can be accepted. Its stressful, so do your best to mitigate it. Its the cost of getting your degree so you can pursue your dream.

This is why either more residency spots need to be funded, which could lead to more physicians but decreased wages, or the expansion of schools needs to be slowed / stopped. Either way, something does need to be done.

When it comes to those things, yes, that is absolutely the case that other schools face the same things, but it seems to be to a different degree. Why were the students so unhappy about that medical school compared to any other school I've toured?

 

[Goro]

This is why either more residency spots need to be funded, which could lead to more physicians but decreased wages, or the expansion of schools needs to be slowed / stopped. Either way, something does need to be done.

When it comes to those things, yes, that is absolutely the case that other schools face the same things, but it seems to be to a different degree. Why were the students so unhappy about that medical school compared to any other school I've toured?

*sigh*

As of 2018, the largest distribution of U.S. physicians was between the ages of 55 and 65 years old. At that time about 29 percent of physicians fell within this age group. With just 11.2 percent of all physicians, the smallest distribution of U.S. physicians was among those aged 35 years or younger.
source: U.S. average age of physicians/doctors 2018 | Statista

With the Baby Boom docs on the verge of retiring or dying off, there is going to be a big need for clinicians int he US soon. There is no doctor glut coming, but a shortage. That's why you see so many schools opening (and alos, for many of the DO schools, they're cash cows). Agree that more residency slots need to be made so we don't have a sudden shortfall in jobs for new grads.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

This is why either more residency spots need to be funded, which could lead to more physicians but decreased wages, or the expansion of schools needs to be slowed / stopped. Either way, something does need to be done.

When it comes to those things, yes, that is absolutely the case that other schools face the same things, but it seems to be to a different degree. Why were the students so unhappy about that medical school compared to any other school I've toured?

Agreed more residency slots are needed. Many med students are unhappy for a myriad of reasons. You are running into ones who have an axe to grind for whatever. My wife had a blast in med school. Went to class to socialize, graduated in the top 10%. Me, I was pretty miserable and gutted it out. Like poker, you gotta play the hand your dealt, and play it to the very best of your abilities. Dont count on a huge increase in residencies as their funding comes from medicaire. Increased medicaire spending is never a popular idea.

 

[hallowmann]

Nope. LECOM does have less tuition, but mandatory lecture attendance and a dress code. Hence, I'd lean to PCOM.

This. Mandatory attendance and a dress code would absolutely kill me. Don’t underestimate how much you love staying in pajamas all day to study it was a major perk

You guys are talking about things that might make someone as an individual like one school over the other, not necessarily outcomes. If you don't think you'd be successful with a dress code, don't go there. It honestly was fine after the first couple weeks. Just like everything else, you get used to it.

And don't get me wrong, there are lots of reasons not to go to LECOM, and PCOM for that matter.

What I'm talking about is outcomes for the graduates. OP's acting like his outcome will be vastly different going to one of the oldest 5 vs any other established DO school. It probably won't be. In fact, he'd probably do better coming out of TCOM or OSUCOM that any of the oldest 5.

 

[Chibucks15]

You guys are talking about things that might make someone as an individual like one school over the other, not necessarily outcomes. If you don't think you'd be successful with a dress code, don't go there. It honestly was fine after the first couple weeks. Just like everything else, you get used to it.

And don't get me wrong, there are lots of reasons not to go to LECOM, and PCOM for that matter.

What I'm talking about is outcomes for the graduates. OP's acting like his outcome will be vastly different going to one of the oldest 5 vs any other established DO school. It probably won't be. In fact, he'd probably do better coming out of TCOM or OSUCOM that any of the oldest 5.

Largely your outcome won’t be different no matter what school you go to. People overestimate how smart they actually are.

 

[Goro]

You guys are talking about things that might make someone as an individual like one school over the other, not necessarily outcomes. If you don't think you'd be successful with a dress code, don't go there. It honestly was fine after the first couple weeks. Just like everything else, you get used to it.

And don't get me wrong, there are lots of reasons not to go to LECOM, and PCOM for that matter.

What I'm talking about is outcomes for the graduates. OP's acting like his outcome will be vastly different going to one of the oldest 5 vs any other established DO school. It probably won't be. In fact, he'd probably do better coming out of TCOM or OSUCOM that any of the oldest 5.

Oh I know that the outcomes are equal! Hence my advice is on the road to those outcomes. Cheaper tuition is what I always advise going for, but adult learners do need to consider that they should be treated as such as well.

 

[BoneWizard]

Largely your outcome won’t be different no matter what school you go to. People overestimate how smart they actually are.

I mean, I agree that if you're a 50th percentile student, going to one medical school over another isn't magically going to make you a 90th percentile student. But they can certainly interfere to the point where you wind up being 20th percentile (i.e mandatory attendance and board prep courses).

 

[Chibucks15]

I mean, I agree that if you're a 50th percentile student, going to one medical school over another isn't magically going to make you a 90th percentile student. But they can certainly interfere to the point where you wind up being 20th percentile (i.e mandatory attendance and board prep courses).

That’s why life as a 50th percentile guy is sooo much better. Just cruise and let the nutjobs who take over SDN work themselves to the bone for a 3 digit number to define self worth

 

[Ho0v-man]

There’s nothing special about the founding five except for PCOM. CCOM is too expensive for what you get. Their match lists every year are legitimately no different than any other private DO school. There is an advantage of having an alumni base with people in every field. But that’s not something a school like lecom can’t deliver. I attend a founding 5 and we just have really old PowerPoints.

 

[Ligament]

Go to the cheapest US medical school possible. Incurring debt for anything other than Harvard, Hopkins or Stanford is a waste.

 

[deleted994889]

Sanity? What? Professional dress? What a friggin nightmare! Skip the mandatory attendance by not doing the traditional lecture path and do PBL. OMM and H and P will be mandatory at any DO school.
As far as tieing a tie or wearing business casual, I find it a small trade off for the 40 to 80k difference in tuition over 4 years. If sitting in your jammies is worth the extra tuition, go for it. It wouldn't be my choice. But that's why we are all different.

I often question whether most premeds can actually fathom just how much $40,000 (or more!) really is.

I'm not saying everyone has to like mandatory attendance/dress code, but I think every applicant should still at least (seriously) consider the savings if they don't have other issues (location, family/friends, etc.).

 

[Zibob]

How do we think the top DO schools who historically match well will fair with the changes to Step 1?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

How do we think the top DO schools who historically match well will fair with the changes to Step 1?

With Step 2 still around probably the exact same. If Step 2 goes P/F too then all DO schools will take a hit.

 

[Zibob]

With Step 2 still around probably the exact same. If Step 2 goes P/F too then all DO schools will take a hit.

That's what I figured, that's why I'm not too worried about attending a good DO program. I know some people who have decided to withdraw their DO acceptance and reapply MD only next cycle once the changes were announced. Seems silly to me.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

That's what I figured, that's why I'm not too worried about attending a good DO program. I know some people who have decided to withdraw their DO acceptance and reapply MD only next cycle once the changes were announced. Seems silly to me.

It would depend on how close they are to an MD acceptance.

 

[Zibob]

It would depend on how close they are to an MD acceptance.

But wouldn't someone already having an acceptance and turning it down be a red flag as a reapplicant?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

But wouldn't someone already having an acceptance and turning it down be a red flag as a reapplicant?

At that school yes. It is always espoused on SDN as truth but I have yet to see DO applicants black balled for turning down an acceptance. Especially if they are an applicant that has a borderline MD caliber app.

 

[tornado15]

That's what I figured, that's why I'm not too worried about attending a good DO program. I know some people who have decided to withdraw their DO acceptance and reapply MD only next cycle once the changes were announced. Seems silly to me.

It would depend on how close they are to an MD acceptance.

I think for those withdrawing DO for MD, no matter the reason, need to understand what they WANT to do.

I'm going DO in the fall, but I think it's also important to consider what you want to do in the future beyond specialties and residencies. Making a difference in your community? MD or DO will get you a good education. Trying to do ground-breaking research or academic medicine/teaching? Going MD will make that much easier. Undecided? Going MD undoubtedly will give you the most options.

 

[Chibucks15]

I think for those withdrawing DO for MD, no matter the reason, need to understand what they WANT to do.

I'm going DO in the fall, but I think it's also important to consider what you want to do in the future beyond specialties and residencies. Making a difference in your community? MD or DO will get you a good education. Trying to do ground-breaking research or academic medicine/teaching? Going MD will make that much easier. Undecided? Going MD undoubtedly will give you the most options.

MD acceptance is in no way guaranteed. It is incredibly short sighted to give up your seat for something that people have zero proof will happen. There are plenty of upper tier places with DOs. But if you wanna give up a seat for a possibility of MD, then possibly end up going FM anyway, up to you

 

[deleted994889]

MD acceptance is in no way guaranteed. It is incredibly short sighted to give up your seat for something that people have zero proof will happen. There are plenty of upper tier places with DOs. But if you wanna give up a seat for a possibility of MD, then possibly end up going FM anyway, up to you

As the saying goes, an acceptance in hand is worth ten in the bush. Pretty sure that's the saying.

 

[tornado15]

MD acceptance is in no way guaranteed. It is incredibly short sighted to give up your seat for something that people have zero proof will happen. There are plenty of upper tier places with DOs. But if you wanna give up a seat for a possibility of MD, then possibly end up going FM anyway, up to you

Tbh one should feel comfortable about going DO way before they press the submit button. And nothing really is guaranteed, let alone an MD acceptance.