Ranking D.O. Schools - Should Your School Be #1?

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by Rusty, Feb 9, 2001.

  1. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    In my experience, asking osteopathic medical students to provide a ranking of D.O. schools usually is met with fierce loyalty and sometimes anger toward those who would even ask such a question. Never let it be said that I avoided a healthy controversy. I am a 4th year student at MSUCOM and below you will find my ranking of the top 10 D.O. schools and my justification why my school earns the #1 spot (Yes, I am biased but at least you know where I stand).
    1. MSU-COM
    2. KCOM
    3. CCOM
    4. NSU-COM
    4. PCOM
    6. UHS-COM
    7. NYCOM
    8. WUHS-COMP
    9. UNECOM
    10. OSU-COM

    MSUCOM has been one of the top D.O. schools in the country for several years. Now, MSUCOM has taken a bold step forward as the #1 osteopathic medical school. Ranked by U.S. New and World Report as a top primary care medical school since D.O. school were added to the rankings, MSUCOM now shares the #9 spot with John Hopkins and UCSF. MSUCOM boasts excellent basic science faculty supported by a Big Ten university, hospital affiliations which are tops among D.O. schools, a great reputation among the residency program directors with whom I interviewed (top 20 allopathic neurology programs), good (not great) facilities, and a warm and friendly atmosphere among students, faculty and administration which provides an excellent learning environment. The school has its drawbacks including a below average library, a curriculum which may over-emphasize primary care, and cold winter weather. In conclusion, MSUCOM is the #1 D.O. school.

    What is your ranking? Why does your #1 school deserve its ranking?

    Please don't trash on anyone else's ranking - although constructive comments are encouraged.
     
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  3. cjkalmat

    cjkalmat Member

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    I agree that MSUCOM is a great med school. However, I think it might also be important to consider how the Primary Care Rankings(PCR) in the USNews are calculated. Each school is evaluated in the PCR by many factors. On of the factors that has the most weight in the PCR is how many graduates of that particular school go into a primary care residency. I would argue that MSU-COM, as an osteopathic school has most of their graduates entering a primary care residency. So, just a hypothetical scinario, if out of 100 possible points the max number of points a school could receive would be 40 for reputation; 30 for primary care enterants; 30 for research activity; then the following may be the case...MSU-COM could have been given 25 points for primary care entrants 15 for research activity and 30 for reputation. Then MSU-COM's total would be 70/100. In the same case Johns Hopkins migh have been awarded 25 for reserach 35 reputation and 10 for primary care entrants, given JHU a total of 70/100. This does not mean any one school is better than another, it just means that different schools have different strengths and different weaknesses. Which is why one needs to always take rankings with a grain of salt. Just a point of thought. [​IMG]
     
  4. Doc Oc

    Doc Oc Senior Member

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    Why is UNECOM your #9 when it was the only other D.O. school to rank in the top 50 in the same ranking where you point out that MSU ranked #9? This ranking for MSU seems to hold alot of weight with you with regards to your reasons for placing MSU at #1. Why doesn't it boost UNECOM any higher than the other 7 schools you listed above it that failed to rank in the Primary Care survey?
     
  5. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    Certainly, the U.S. News and World Report ranking of the Top Primary Care Schools is at least as flawed as my own personal ranking of D.O. schools. My belief remains unchanged that regardless of the US News ranking, MSUCOM is the top D.O. school by virtue of strong academics, excellent hospital affiliations, good facilities, and a reputation which provides its graduates with an advantage in seeking residency programs. UNECOM is a good D.O. school with a beautiful location, average hospital afiltiations, and a limited reputation outside of its local area. Probably unfairly, I discounted UNECOM's #42 ranking on the US News primary care listing just as I discounted the WVSOM #22 ranking. As for why I ranked two school #4 and why NYCOM is #7, those were my rankings based upon my personal impressions and they are probably different from other's rankings. As for the utility of ranking these programs, they are of limited societal benefit and intended to provide a source for discussion. I disagree that ranking osteopathic schools is "like ranking apples and orangutangs". Ranking osteopathic schools is like ranking osteopathic schools - comparisons that are made by applicants and residency programs directors every day. Proximity in distance is not required to make a comparison, although it may factor into an applicant's decision process. Proximity in academics, facilities, reputation and opportunities are all that is necessary for comparison. D.O. Schools deserve healthy scrutiny and comparison. My rankings are flawed, based upon my imperfect personal impressions and subject to your alternative viewpoints. How would you rank the D.O. schools? Why would you rank them the way that you did? What personal experiences have you had that went into your imperfect ranking of schools?
     
  6. goblue27

    goblue27 Member

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    I don't know what you're smoking rusty, but MSU's facilities are extremely poor. They use old classrooms with little or no audio and visual equipment, their omm lab is well below that of the majority of other d.o. schools, and the u.s. news ranking is based solely on numbers, not on the reasons behind the numbers. Do your checking next time, son!!
     
  7. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    goblue27,
    I don't smoke. However, I have visited many of the D.O. schools. MSUCOM has good (not great) facilties. The OMM lab which was average among schools is undergoing an excellent renovation. The school has computer-controlled projection systems in all lecture halls which can split-screen project video, digital disc and computer simulation. Several courses (anatomy, physiology, pathology, dermatology to name a few) have excellent web-based resources. The library has below average resources - it is basically a study room, not a place for research.

    As I have stated previously, The US News rankings are based upon numbers which are flawed. If by saying that the rankings are solely based upon "numbers" of graduates pursuing primary care, then you are incorrect. Several factors were taken into account in their rankings. For a complete list of criteria please refer to the US News website.
     
  8. Pikevillemedstudent

    Pikevillemedstudent Bengals Fan

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    To truly be an excellent primary care school, the school must possess several characteristics which would lead their graduates to a successful career in primary care. These characteristics include, but are not limited to the following: student selection based mainly on interest in primary care(not numbers); provide an environment to illustrate to students what primary care in practice is truly like; large percentage of graduates entering primary care. I feel that there is ONLY one school that has these characteristics and that school is WVSOM. It is undoubtly the number one primary care DO school. I will also admit my baised in that I feel PCSOM is VERY similar to WVSOM.
     
  9. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member
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    Rusty,

    Just curious, why didn't OUCOM make your "Top 10" ? What do you feel their weeknesses are?

    ------------------
    "Some people follow their dreams, Others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission. " --- Neil Kendall
     
  10. Liquid_Tension

    Liquid_Tension Senior Member

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    Rusty.....are you a blithering fool? I really don't give a flying rats ass about your useless and trivial ranking system. It is pretty much worthless and demonstrates your worthlessness. Regardless of what medical school we are at, the important thing is learning the material and gaining the knowledge you need to develop into a good doctor. I guess what you have learned so far at your school is how to make a list and how to list ten different items. Very good and I commend you on this wonderful achievement. My next task for you is to order these items. box, car, orange, water, shoelace, hotdog, crowbar, propellor, and fruitloop. I am very interested to see your ordering of these very important items. I know that based on your previously demonstrated intelligence....you will ace this test.
    happy listings.......
    -your most unlisted Liquid
     
  11. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    Liquid,
    That is funny in a childish sort of way. I agree with your statement that the most important thing is learning the material and gaining the knowledge. However, the hostility evident in your post must mean one of two things:
    A. You care and are offended by my ranking, hence you must be lying when you say that you "really don't give a flying rats ass."
    B. You don't care, but you have a great deal of hostility toward issues which you don't care about?

    Neither option bodes well for you...I wish you luck sorting it out.
     
  12. euhsa

    euhsa Senior Member

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    I choose c. (none of the above). Did you read any of his previous posts? It seems to me that this guy/gal is just having fun with this thing and seeing how people reacts to his post. My best bet is that he is sitting at home in front of his computer and laughing. He is like Howard Stern, a guy who says the most outlandish things just to get ratings.
     
  13. Liquid_Tension

    Liquid_Tension Senior Member

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    Rusty, you know something.....I think that you are right after all. You are right when you say that I am lying. Yes indeed, I was lying when I stated that I did not give a flying rats ass. Actually, I do not give a soaring squirrels giant butthole about you and your cheesy lists on the various schools of medicine. You also are right when you tell me that I have hostility. I do have hostility, and I often train this hostility towards little flea bags like yourself. Why don't you go outside and count the number of pebbles you find in your street. That would be a nice start. And after that, you can go to the supermarket, and see how many circular apples you can locate.
    I think that both options bode well for you. :)
    -your most unsorted liquid

     
  14. Berto

    Berto Junior Member

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    Just wondering why TCOM did not make your list. I have received acceptances from KCOM, CCOM, AZCOM and TCOM. I will most likely be going to TCOM(not at TX resident) because I feel that it has the most to offer out of all four.
    Thanks, Luke

    ------------------
     
  15. BoiseDoc

    BoiseDoc Junior Member

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    liquid_tension . . .

    I was wondering if, in your medical training, you were learning anyhthing about bedside manner and social skills. Evidently, Rusty has been listening to this important aspect of medicine unlike you. Do you honestly think that patients want a doctor with pent up anger such as yours treating them when they are at their most vulnerable?
    What's wrong with someone giving their opinion on D.O. school rankings? That's all these postings are supposed to be. I don't think that it is right for you to try and smash every person's opinion that you do not agree with at this forum! I, personally, like to listen to what people have to say especially when it is POSITIVE and INTELLIGENT.
    Granted you have your opinions on these issues and you have every right to express yourself but I feel that since you are going to be a professional, you need to practice using discretion. A major part of medicine is knowing WHAT to say and WHEN to say it.
     
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  17. deathkiss

    deathkiss Junior Member

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    I am considering applying to a medical school in September.
    Its hard get information from real medical students on-line because there are a lot of people posing as medical students. Whenever I see persons who reduce to personally attacking individuals, I find it is so very unlikely that they are medical school material. This is the second room I attended and the same occurance is happening. These tactics really delutes the intergrity of the room. Please stop!
     
  18. KiickInTheHead

    KiickInTheHead New Member

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    They shore bee good spellerz in allahbamma, hyuk hyuk!

    -Roscoe P Coltrane
     
  19. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    Congratulations on your acceptances! TCOM is a very good school and certainly has a lot to offer. The dean of my school attended TCOM. TCOM did not make my Top 10 largely because of information I was given by a close friend who graduated there. According to this person, the hospital affiliations are below average overall. In my ranking, hospital affiliations for 3rd and 4th year rotations were the most important criteria used to determine an individual rank. This is based upon my belief that students learn more practical information which makes them better physicians and candidates for residency during their hospital rotations than their basic science courses. My friend did state that they enjoyed their experiences at TCOM.
     
  20. turtleboard

    turtleboard SDN Advisor

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    What difference would it make? They'd all be "Top 20." [​IMG]

    My personal pick for #1, however, would be NYCOM.


    Tim W. of N.Y.C.
     
  21. Newdoc2002

    Newdoc2002 Senior Member

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    I want to be like Rusty. I will now rank the the top ten numbers out of numbers 1-19. If you don't agree, please feel free to rank your numbers and tell us why?

    1. 9
    2. 2
    3. 5
    4. 16
    5. 1
    6. 17
    7. 8
    8. 12
    9. 3
    10. 11

    I picked number 9 because it is my favorite number. I really haven't got a clue about the other numbers although number 15 did not make the list because I know one guy who is familiar with 15 and he said it isn't affiliated with good fractions of the number.

    Now, I know that year after year someone is going to rank these same numbers but MY list is certain to have validity.

    PS - The so-called magazine "official rankings" are also about as valid as these number rankings. I talked to a vice-president of a top 5 rated dental school who laughed when I congratulated him on the high ranking. He proceeded to tell me that the school hadn't turned in the paperwork for the ranking in three years. Rankings are used to sell magazine subscriptions, not give applicants hard data.
     
  22. prolixless

    prolixless Senior Member

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    Rusty --

    Although academic quality and student atmosphere are important aspects to consider in a med school, the quality of a school's 3rd and 4th year rotations play an overwhelming role, I believe, in how we ought to rank med schools. Therefore, if you were ranking the osteopathic colleges SOLELY according to the quality of 3rd and 4th year rotations, then how would the order of your list change (if at all)? Hopefully you've talked with enough students from each of the colleges on your list to make a rough judgement.
     
  23. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    My biased ranking of hospital affiliations for 3rd and 4th year rotations would look something like this:
    1. MSU-COM
    2. PCOM
    3. KCOM
    4. UHS-COM
    5. NYCOM
    6. CCOM
    7. OU-COM
    8. UMDNJ-SOM
    9. NSU-COM
    10.UNE-COM
     
  24. vdubpower

    vdubpower Senior Member

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    hey where does comp rank and why??????
     
  25. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    COMP would be #12 on my list.
     
  26. roughgod

    roughgod Member

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    This was SOOOOOO FUNNY....HILLAROIUS....

    This perhaps was the funniest (yet not too insulting- at least in a direst way) commentary I have seen on this site so far..... [​IMG])))
     
  27. UHS05

    UHS05 Member

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    would you still rate UHS in the top ten with the new curriculum? J/C
     
  28. dmuoruhs

    dmuoruhs Junior Member

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    How would you rate DMU in this list...I mean it should be in the top 10, don't you think?
     
  29. aagbay

    aagbay Member

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  30. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    While I am sure some people consider DMU to be a fine school, it does not make my Top Ten. My primary reasons for not ranking it higher are:
    -I have a friend there who has convinced me that the administration is not always pro-student. In particular, he himself had unbelievable problems with one of the deans.
    -I know the new Dean. He can be pro-student when he thinks it is in his best interest.
    -Complaints from students about their affiliated hospitals.
    -This was the ONLY osteopathic medical school which was specifically mentioned by an allopathic residency program as an "inferior" school during my residency interviews.

    I'm sure the many people love this school but it just didn't make my Top Ten.
     
  31. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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  32. alpha1phi

    alpha1phi Member

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    Just wanted to add my 2 cents... DMU is a great school! There have been problems with administration, but we are finally starting to settle down.

    Also, Just because you talked with one person who said that DMU students are inferior doesn't mean anything. I have also heard negative things about MSU among other schools. All that means is that perhaps that one student was not top notch - or at least that physician didn't think so. I have heard GREAT things about what the medical community thinks about students at DMU - especially when it comes to OMM! Don't be so quick to base your opinions and advice on things you have merely "heard"

     
  33. dmuoruhs

    dmuoruhs Junior Member

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    Rusty,
    While I actually appreciate your post, developing a ranking system based on what one person told ya seems a little radical. Even though UHS makes your top ten in both lists, just head on over to the "attention UHS students" thread started by jephyboy and you will see that things aren't exactly hunky-dory there either. I am sure the same would apply to MSUCOM or any other medical institution for that matter. I am not defending DMU, but your rankings seem a little odd when you lack at how much the change in curriculum at UHS...something not even all the faculty could agree on, but the business minded administration decided to implement anyway...has been a source of tumult and dissension. I am going to UHS anyway :-0, but not because one person told me it was good or bad...
     
  34. tiffsatt

    tiffsatt Member

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    Why didn't AZCOM make the list, and the answer to the previous post about UHS with their new curriculum? Just checking!
    TJ
     
  35. dreamTeam

    dreamTeam Member

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    What a sad thing to see other D.O. schools rip on one another. Tsk, Tsk, Tsk,... The future docs of America. I thought we could improve on that aspect as a new generation of physicians. Think about what you're saying before you blow off so much steam-- good moral character takes practice, if you don't get this now, think about the way you'll treat your patients. I happen to be an MS1 at UHS and let me tell you that being the guinea pig for this new curiculum is not EASY. But, I expected coming into medical school to be both challenging and exciting-- as they all say,"Welcome to medical school." Just think, for all of you future UHS students--we are facing a great deal of those challenges for you so that when you get here, a lot of these things will be ironed out. Your assigned big sis/big bro will served to be a great resource of information. The boards are changing the way they ask questions and that's why schools are now changing the way they are teaching the material. This is only the beginning, other schools will follow suit. Better now than later. Medicine encompasses a world of changes, this is one of them. I am honored to be a student doctor at UHS.
     
  36. muonwhiz

    muonwhiz Senior Member

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    Obviously someone must know something about how good these individual schools are. What info do you have about AZCOM and DMU? Anyone who has friends attending at either of these schools, or who has interviewed there and at enought other DO schools to make a reasonable comparison for AZCOM or DMU versus the other schools you know about, post up! Inquiring minds want to know!
     
  37. Teufelhunden

    Teufelhunden 1K Member
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    Rusty,

    Your thoughts on OUCOM ??? Why didn't they make the list? The CORE hospital network seems strong, students are happy with the new cirricula, and they're associated with a fairly large graduate school with programs in Molecular Bio, Biochem, etc. I'm curious as to what your criticisms are.

    ------------------
    "Some people follow their dreams, others hunt them down and beat them mercilessly into submission."
     
  38. hankhill

    hankhill Member

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    DMU should be in the bottom half in my opinion. I find it hard to believe that any of the other schools could be as disorganized as DMU. The quality of education at this school is below average at best. Yes, we have a very good OMM department (one of the few things I can brag on DMU for), but OMM alone does not make a good medical school. The problems with this school are abundant. There are not enough seats for first year students when we have Ethics or OMM lectures. This usually leaves a minimum of 10 or more students sitting on the floor for these lectures. Hard to justify paying $25K/yr to sit on the floor and take notes weekly. No big deal though, you can handle sitting on the floor every so often. Most all of our classes are changed dramatically from year to year. Some change is good, but when a department like Microbiology goes from having 7 exams to having 3, it really sucks. The grades reflect how much it sucks too. When close to half of a class fails an exam, something is wrong. So, you're thinking that this is just one course. Sorry, this is regular operating procedure at Disorganized Medical University. Our embryology professor who also happens to be an assistant dean decided he didn't want to teach, therefore he developed an innovative new method of learning called "self study". He assigned a book and then gave a test, no lectures. Typical DMU quality education. You have to also wonder why that this professor taught during histology, embryology (if you call self-study teaching), neuroanatomy, and anatomy on top of being assistant dean. Do they not have enough money to hire enough professors so that this guy dosen't have to lecture in 4 seperate courses, or is this guy an expert in 4 different fields. I'll go ahead and grant you the fact that they are all related (anatomy), but I still stand by my arguement, and as a defense I offer his poor preparation for lectures that he did give. OK, so its likely only a few bad apples, no big deal right? Well, take our ethics class. The first 5 or so lectures were on the history of osteopathic medicine, not ethics. Many of the lectures got canceled for unknown reasons, and one time they canceled a lecture more than a week in advance but forgot to tell students. When you are already lacking in time, it really bites to be sitting in a lecture hall for a required course with all of your classmates waiting for a professor to show up, who canceled class, but forgot to notify students. No big deal, but it would be nice to cover some ethical situations theoretically before we move on to dealing with them first hand. Want to know how we are graded in the course? We make a poster presentation. Fun, I'll spend several weeks researching and working on one ethical topic when I should be learning a broad spectrum of situations, problems, and possible outcomes. So place another mark out beside ethics as being another courese which is below average at DMU. Now lets take a look at Physical Diagnosis which was going pretty well until right before the first exam. When the course started we were given a syllabus which outlined which lectures would be covered on our first exam, and it stated that we would cover lectures 1-15 and labs 1-5 for exam I. Shortly there after, we were given an addendum that we were told would replace the page in our syllabus that told us which lectures would be on Exam I, and this time it stated that we would cover lectures 1-13 and labs 1-6. No big deal, because all of this happened early on in the semester. However, one week before the exam we were told that lecutres 1-15 and labs 1-5 would be on exam I. We didn't recieve anything in writing about this until 2 days prior to the exam when an email was finally sent out. We still haven't recieved any justification as to why the change was vitally necessary. Also, it is safe to assume that some students who had already had lab #6 which was not testable material, but which covered the material from lecture #15 (which was testable) had an unfair advantage compared to students who had not had the lab yet. Wanna know how we are treated by the administration at DMU? Well, listen to what the anatomy course coordinator told students in lecture one day when he was for some reason unpleased with laboratory performance. "Go into the laboratory and get out that little thing you call a scalpel, and get your lazy asses to work". Nice little announcement to the entire class. His course was filled with disorganization, but you can see how much compassion he has from his remark. Another problem that is consistant throughout our courses here at DMU is the lack of preparation our professors put in for their lectures (most all courses). It is a regular occurence for professors to come to class and not be able to get powerpoint to load or have some other technical difficulty. With most lectures lasting only 60 minutes, it is hard to see how that we are getting our money's worth when a professore spends the first 15-20 minutes of class trying to get a computer to work.

    Things will likely improve here at DMU. They have to. I find it hard to believe that they can go in the other direction. It is still early to see whether our Dean has the courage to stand up for students and make the changes that are necessary for this school to progress forward. It is very obvious that in order for him to do so, he is going to have to step on some important DMU toes. Change is never easy (an understatement). I fear that one of the above users might be right when he says that our new dean will likely do whatever is in his best interest, but the verdict is still out on this.

    The bottom line is this: you can come to DMU, graduate, and get licensed. However, I would argue that there are much, much, much better universities in which to get your education. Not a day goes by that I don't regret the decision to come to this school. At first I hoped that the problems that we were experiencing at DMU were limited to a few courses, but now I know that the disorganization and lack of responsibility are widespread here at DMU. If you can get in to another medical school, I would recommend that you give the other school a shot. I had 2 acceptances, and I chose DMU. Big mistake. I am getting the kind of education I would have expected to get from a Caribbean school, and that is not an exageration.

    Hope that helps. I wish this info had been available to me. It is not as rosey here at DMU as it appears when you come here for your interviews.


    hankhill

    I edited this post on 4/5/01 so that it would reflect an issue that jsdmu and I discussed.

    [This message has been edited by hankhill (edited April 05, 2001).]

    [This message has been edited by hankhill (edited April 05, 2001).]
     
  39. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    AZCOM did not make my list because it is too new to have a track record for me to assess. I know several people who have graduated or who are students who all seem fairly competent and speak highly of the school. It just didn't make my Top Ten list becuase I am still formulating my opinion.
     
  40. Rusty

    Rusty Member

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    I think thay OUCOM is a good school for some of the reasons mentioned above, it just didn't make my Top Ten list. In its favor, it has one of the best organized OPTIs, but is lacking in the quality of some of these hospitals. It is in a generally DO friendly state. Ohio University provides resoruces not available at smaller colleges.

    In question, the recent departure/dismissal of the Dean speaks loudly that things were not going so great in Athens. Several students have told me of problems with the quality of their basic science education. The clinical education during the 3rd and 4th years is notoriously inconsistent from base hospital to base hospital. I still rate the 3rd and 4th year rotations better than most DO schools, but more for volume than quality.

    A good school, it just didn't make my Top Ten list.
     
  41. MSafur

    MSafur Senior Member

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    How come UNECOM is towards the lower half of your list??

     
  42. sidebentleft

    sidebentleft Junior Member

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    DMU does have a strong OMM program. I have been told that their students score high on that subject on boards. But how do they fare on other areas? Are other areas compromised in order to excell at OMM, an area utilized by few "practicing" DOs?

    I would agree that the quality of education at DMU is questionable.
     
  43. wompa

    wompa New Member

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    Bored of living on East coast ! UNECOM vs. TUCOM....beautiful campus in glamorous Biddeford vs. old Navy yard in CA...no brainer and go to UNE ? How do TUCOM's clinical affiliations rank ? Any input from present TUCOM students would be great. thanks.
     
  44. hankhill

    hankhill Member

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    I don't think that the problem at DMU is OMM compromising other courses. Rather, I think that part of the reason that the education is so poor at this university is because the different departments are not monitored or held responsible for their actions. OMM is such a good course here because Dr. Boesler truly cares that we learn as much as possible about a subject which he is truly passionate about. In other courses, we seem to be of secondary or tertiary importance. A professor can come to class, take 1/4 of the period of class trying to get the computer turned on and loaded, submit handouts that we purchase that are incomplete and different from what we will cover during that class period, and he has nothing to worry about. Who is going to say anything to him? It should be the dean in my opinion after we make legitimate complaints, but I could be wrong. Someone should take care of business. I gurantee you that these professors would not try to get away with some of the presentations they pull if it was in front of their peers. Our virology professor is a perfect example. We purchased his notes from the book store, but they were incomplete and an embarrassment. You couldn't read part of the powerpoint that he had printed, it was filled with errors, and he usually left out part of his presentation that was still significant test material. He writes questions for boards, and I gurantee you that I will be able to pick them out when it comes time to take the comlex.

    I think that the problem at DMU is a lack of responsibility and organization.
     
  45. tiffsatt

    tiffsatt Member

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    Hankhill,

    HOLY ****...You are making me paranoid! DMU is the one school I have been accepted at, although I still have three interviews lined up. I actually hated the school that I attended for undergrad (for other reasons that do not encompass education) so I know what it is like to be paying 20 some G's (my tuition was 19) for an education at a school that you don't enjoy. I was actually really happy with the school when I interviewed there, and I thought it seemed very well established. But there are people here that like my undergrad also, do you think you are the minority in this opinion...or does this seem to be the general consensus. Feel free to email me at [email protected]

    Thanks
    TJ
     
  46. No offense but if you've already made up your mind about where you want to attend, they why do you ask all these questions. I read on another thread where you said that it was a no-brainer to choose UNECOM over TUCOM becuase TUCOM was at an old NAVY yard. There's more to a school that just where the campus itself lies. I'd argue that more people would rather be in the Bay Area than where UNECOM is located. If you are choosing curriculum, that's one thing, but choosing the location of the campus? It's not like it's the slums. Old Navy yard also means security guards. We are 45 minutes to SF, 25 minutes to Oakland, etc....

    TUCOM would win hands down on the location issue. Students live in Napa Valley, Benicia, San Francisco, Novato, etc... If those locations were so terrible, why is it one of the most expensive places to live in the world? Old Navy yard? Yes, but now a campus in development. This year, the PT, OT, and PA schools will be moving from New York. Eventually the law school and an undergrad will be built. Old Navy Yard means plenty of cheap land to build upon. This also means lower tuition. "Old" Navy yard is the key term, not "Current" Navy Yard. Mare Island is not beautiful now but eventually will be. There is a golf course on campus and plenty of room to build. There is a hospital on the island, and also security guards. If you don't like Mare Island, live 5 miles off campus in a nice location.

    Another thing, if you aren't going to take the time to read my posts, then don't expect anyone to take the time to write anything. If you want the current students to take the time to write, then take the time to read.

    Plain and simply, night life and club life suck in Vallejo. Then again, why would you stick around in Vallejo when you live in the Bay Area?

    I can't answer any of the questions regarding the current equipment and stuff like that. We have the highest GPA of all the DO schools and the second highest MCAT. We obviously don't have a problem attracting candidates to the Bay Area on this "Old Navy Yard". Many of our students have done quite well in the Match so far. Orthopedic Surgery, General Surgery, etc... The MD match has not yet been released but interview include Harvard, Columbia, Yale, UCLA, UCSF, Stanford, etc...

    We have UCSF, Stanford, and UC Davis close by and many rotate through those hospitals or are taught by graduates of those institutions in addition to our own rotations. Students live in Oakland, San Francisco, Novato, Napa Valley, etc.. Students are matching and interviewing for every specialty at very prestigious universities. We will have a Health Sciences division starting this year that includes PT, OT , and PA. You will interact with other Health Professional students. Real no-brainer to choose this "Old Navy Yard", huh?

    I'm not saying that you should choose UNECOM over TUCOM. I'm saying give our school some credit and don't call it a no-brainer because the campus happens to be on an 'Old Naval Base'.

     
  47. reed0104

    reed0104 Senior Member

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    Hank Hill, what the hell was that?

    I'm in your class, I don't know who you are, we might even be friends, but your description of our school is pretty bogus.

    It's true we have a couple teachers who need to go, but it's no big deal.

    All I can say is the more I study the material, the better scores I get, it correlates little to our faculty's quality.

    DMU is not a bad place to be, I really like it, the people are nice and my classmates are the best I've ever had in undergrad or grad. school

    GOOD DMU profs:

    Dr. Matz - Anatomy
    Dr. Mulleur - Biochem
    Dr. Hills - Biochem
    Dr. Finnerty - Neuro
    Dr. Wattleworth PD
    Dr. Martin - PD
    Dr. Canby - Histo
    Dr. Khan - Anatomy
    Dr. Simpson - Micro
    Dr. Wakabongo - Micro
    Dr. Johnson - Micro (Hard but Fair)
    Dr. Valder - anat/histo
    etc...etc...

    Hank Hill and I have way different opinions and take the exact same classes at the exact same school. Make of that what you will.

    DMU
    D.O. 04'


     
  48. hankhill

    hankhill Member

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    Posted by Reed:I'm in your class, I don't know who you are, we might even be friends, but your description of our school is pretty bogus.

    Reply:Bogus? Really? Why don?t you try making an arguement about something I
    specifically said that you disagree with instead of just broadly saying that my statement is ?Bogus?.
    Posted by Reed:It's true we have a couple teachers who need to go, but it's no big deal.

    Reply:I respect your opinion, but I totally disagree with you. There are more than a couple of bad apples at DMU.

    Posted by Reed:All I can say is the more I study the material, the better scores I get, it correlates little to our faculty's quality.

    Reply: Good for you, but the average person in our class is making a 76 on most exams.
    That leaves a rather large number of people failing. How many people had to be pushed
    up to 70 at the conclusion of Microbiology which I thought was one of our better courses
    (except for the virology portion). I guess that the average person in our class is just not as intelligent as you. You?re probably right, its us not them.

    Posted by Reed [​IMG]MU is not a bad place to be, I really like it, the people are nice and my
    classmates are the best I've ever had in undergrad or grad. school

    Reply: As far as being a ?bad place to be?, I like Des Moines. It is a great place to live. I just don?t like DMU. I didn?t say it was a bad place to be, and I certainly didn?t say the people were not ?nice? or that I didn?t like my classmates. My complaints are strictly with the school.

    Posted by Reed:Hank Hill and I have way different opinions and take the exact same
    classes at the exact same school. Make of that what you will.

    Reply: You?ve got that right.


    [This message has been edited by hankhill (edited 03-04-2001).]
     
  49. kidterrific

    kidterrific Senior Member

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    Hankhill,

    I've corresponded with you before regarding DMU when I got an interview, and you gave me an honest, yet somewhat bitter opinion about the school regarding the whole anatomy comment and the embryo "study yourself" thing. The fact is, many schools now have self study classes (LECOM is basing an entire curriculum on that), and the anatomy comment was most likely a sarcastic joke (albeit I wasn't there).

    From what I gather of your comments, you sound like a bitter student who is complaining about meaningless bullsheeit. Any school you attend will have professors who fumble with the computers for a while. Computers are new; professors are old. Any student who attends class reasonably early is practically guaranteed a choice seat, and it isn't as if you are taking exams on the floor, now is it?

    Most of the problems you outline seem to be problems of convenience, not education. Any PREPARED student would not find themselves struggling with the problems you outline. I suggest that you will not be happy at any school you attend. I mean, c'mon - it's friggin MEDICAL SCHOOL! Nobody told you that things would be 100% easy, and if you figured that med school should be a walk in the park, then you are in the wrong profession, my friend. Nobody is supposed to be holding your hand the entire time. Take some initiative and work through these issues, rather than sit around and be bitter.

    You strike me as that one student who remains in the hallway after an exam and complains about how 'unfair' and 'impossible' it was, while asking for everyone else's performance record. I feel that in a few years you will also be on this board complaining about how the residency you got is a pain because nurses don't respect residents.

    Don't get me wrong. You are completely 100% entitled to your opinion, and I strongly urge all applicants to seriously research the school that he or she plans to attend. But I am entitled to my opinion, as well, and I feel that your post was more personal than business. Don't let a grudge that you have sour impressionable applicants.

    ------------------
    --
    KidT
    [email protected]
     
  50. hankhill

    hankhill Member

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    Posted by kidt:From what I gather of your comments, you sound like a bitter student who
    is complaining about meaningless bullsheeit. Any school you attend will have professors
    who fumble with the computers for a while. Computers are new; professors are old. Any
    student who attends class reasonably early is practically guaranteed a choice seat, and it isn't as if you are taking exams on the floor, now is it?

    Reply: Computers aren?t new anymore. To repeatedly have the same problem is
    unprofessional and irresponsible, and btw some people do have to take OMM quizes on
    the floor, but what about having to take notes for that hour and a half. Funny how you know so much about the school having not attended it. I will be fair. My opinion is that of one person. I will not be so bold as to say that all or even most of the class shares my opinion. I am not trying to speak for the entire class.You have already heard from one of my classmates who said he totally disagrees with me. I am perfectly ok with this, and I respect his post. I am simply giving my opinion about the
    school, and it is one which I wish I would have heard before I decided to attend here.

    Posted by kidt:Most of the problems you outline seem to be problems of convenience, not education. Any PREPARED student would not find themselves struggling with the
    problems you outline. I suggest that you will not be happy at any school you attend. I
    mean, c'mon - it's friggin MEDICAL SCHOOL! Nobody told you that things would be
    100% easy, and if you figured that med school should be a walk in the park, then you are in the wrong profession, my friend. Nobody is supposed to be holding your hand the entire time. Take some initiative and work through these issues, rather than sit around and be bitter. You strike me as that one student who remains in the hallway after an exam and complains about how 'unfair' and 'impossible' it was, while asking for everyone else's performance record. I feel that in a few years you will also be on this board complaining about how the residency you got is a pain because nurses don't respect residents.

    Reply: Great analysis. There is no way that the school that kidt has chosen could possibly have its faults. Where did I post that I thought medical school would ?be a walk in the park?? How do you know that you will make it through kidt? I guess by the same way that you knew that we didn?t have quizes in OMM that some people take on the floor. I am out of time now. Done posting until next weekend most likely. Good luck with your education kidt. I mean no disrespect to you or anyone else.


     
  51. robertratzlaff

    robertratzlaff New Member

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    B]To truly be an excellent primary care school, the school must possess several characteristics which would lead their graduates to a successful career in primary care. These characteristics include, but are not limited to the following: student selection based mainly on interest in primary care(not numbers); provide an environment to illustrate to students what primary care in practice is truly like; large percentage of graduates entering primary care. I feel that there is ONLY one school that has these characteristics and that school is WVSOM. It is undoubtedly the number one primary care DO school. I will also admit my biased in that I feel PCSOM is VERY similar to WVSOM. [/B][/QUOTE]

    ***When I first read the topic "Ranking D.O. Schools..." I jumped at the screen to see some opinions. Low and behold, my school wasn't on the list (WVSOM). However, just reading through some of the replies I could see where the discussions were leading to, that is, personal preference/belief. We all can sit here typing our views about who's this, who's that, we're the best, you?re not, but that doesn't get us anywhere in the long run.

    For my schools sake, even though it's REPUTATION SPEAKS FOR ITSELF, I would like to add a couple things. WVSOM is located in rural West Virginia and our mission statement is to provide primary care physicians for rural Appalachia. Receiving the accolades from U.S. News is great, but seeing our impact on the community we serve is ten-fold more pleasing to me. Speaking in terms of education, our faculty and staff provides considerable support, which gives comfort for all those times (we all know it) during the 1st two years when we thought it would never end. During the 3rd and 4th years rotations are scheduled around the entire state of West Virginia, right along side our allopathic student colleagues. And we hear, consistently, that our students (WVSOM) are more knowledgeable, both clinically and educationally than our two allopathic counterparts Marshall University and West Virginia University. These comments are mainly from people at those hospitals, visiting professors, and from residency program directors. I have no right to sit and judge other D.O. schools (in which all 19 I equally support) and rank them from 1 to 10. I think the only person who could do that would be Andrew Taylor Still.

    Schools are extremely important in our education as physicians, but they don't make us the physician who we are. We have to remember what will...and that is 'us' as a person, makes the physician. The person makes the physician, not the school. I bet if you compiled all the schools, both allopathic and osteopathic (disregarding OMT), the education presented would almost be identical. I say this because I have friends at Ohio State University, Indiana University, Ohio University, Northwestern University, Arizona College of Osteopathic Medicine, and Texas College of Osteopathic Medicine, all of whom speak to me the language of the first two years, basic sciences and basic sciences gone metastatic. Needless to say a wide range of schools. Now as for the 3rd and 4th years of medical schools, let's just assume that the year after year top notch schools (Harvard, John Hopkins, Washington University, etc.) have the so called best teaching facilities in the nation, maybe the world. I can agree with that. But, I think what we should also take into consideration is that if I were a student there or at some big teaching hospital, how much exposure would I get? I've worked in big teaching hospitals before, and what I saw wasn't a great deal of hands-on-learning. I might be able to watch or hold some forceps, while the residents and attending do all the work. Some smaller sized hospitals rely heavily on their medical students for procedures. Procedures=learning!! So equally enough 3rd and 4th year rotations are what you make of the hand your dealt.

    I don't want to get away from our discussion. My point is, the person makes the physician, the school helps to facilitate that, but ultimately it's up to she/he to make the most out of it. Let's not all sit here and bicker about an issue that has no answer. If doctor A.T. Still had come to know that there were 19 schools of osteopathic medicine, he'd be proud. Thanks for reading!!

     
  52. ADRIANSHOE

    ADRIANSHOE Senior Member

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    wow, anyone with a sense of deja vu?
    i first saw this thread and thought...uh oh, here goes the patronizing, love thy school, lie cheat steal and kill crowd again, but this is actually pretty good reading if you cut out the personal animosity and attack the ideas. (which is the professional approach)

    The concept of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY cannot be overstated.
    lets not jump to conclusions about Hankhill however:
    is it possible that HANK feels an awesome sense of personal responsibility, yet ALSO feels it is important to provide the highest quality instruction that YOUR money is buying? are these two thoughts mutually exclusive, i think not.
    Simply because YOU are supposed to be personally motivated doesnt EXCUSE poor quality instruction, THESE ARE SEPARATE TOPICS but in a way intertwined...A GREAT INSTRUCTOR can lift you up and give you insights and directions that in your self study you are not ready to explore or understand fully by yourself. with this improvement in your understanding, you also can become more motivated.
    Any one who claims that an instructor cannot be a motivating factor even in those already self motivated really has no basis for discussion because a rational person would not bother to even talk to such a one.
    A great instructor can simplify and economize your study habits by concision and clarification of what you have learned on your own.
    DAMNING HANK for demanding quality instruction is nonsense.
    USING the self promoting argument that WE ALL HAVE TO BE SELF MOTIVATED, attacks Hanks person, IT PRESUPPOSES THAT HE ISNT SELF MOTIVATED, and that is not a necessity.
    WE HAVE AN OBLIGATION TO STRIVE FOR THE PERFECT EDUCATION, the very nature of the threads SUBJECT is SHOULD your school be number one.
    the simple answer is YES: all schools should be striving like hell to be number one...
    heh heh heh, jest a lil revision of how you read the subject line.
    so if Hank points out reasons why HIS school ISNT striving to be number one, that doesnt make him an unmotivated lazy person, it might just make him insightful and MOTIVATED TO IMPROVE HIS SCHOOL. viewed this way he becomes a hero.
    If you view his points as being dispassionate you become dispassionate and more understanding. If YOU view his attacks as being biased, YOU become biased toward him.
    Final CONCLUSION: what you believe about HANK has nothing to do with HANK and everything to do with how YOU VIEW THE WORLD.
    please dont take this as an attack, its not meant that way at all.
     

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