Ranking of Programs in Texas

[ResidencyApp]

So there are a lot of IM programs in Texas, and I was wondering how you all would rank these programs (listed in no specific order):

UTSW
Baylor
UT Houston
UT San Antonio
UTMB
Texas A&M Scott & White
Texas Tech
Baylor Dallas
UTSW Austin Program
Methodist Dallas
Methodist Houston
Presbyterian Dallas

Any help is appreciated!

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[kafkaontheshore]

So there are a lot of IM programs in Texas, and I was wondering how you all would rank these programs (listed in no specific order):

UTSW
Baylor
UT Houston
UT San Antonio
UTMB
Texas A&M Scott & White
Texas Tech
Baylor Dallas
UTSW Austin Program
Methodist Dallas
Methodist Houston
Presbyterian Dallas

Any help is appreciated!

So, the big 2 are UTSW and Baylor obviously. UTSA is an up and coming program, and may join the top of the pile soon (some folks think they may have already passed Baylor, but I think this is unfair and an overreaction to their "troubles"). Still, it's interesting gossip and illustrates outside perception, which is almost as important as the "truth" sometimes.

I have heard good and bad things about UT-Houston, Scott and White, UTMB, and Tech. I think they'd rank in about that order, but when you're dealing with the vast morass of "mid-tier" university programs, they're really all about equal; you can make slight adjustments up and down based on your preference.

Baylor-Dallas, UTSW-Austin, Presbyterian, Methodist Houston and Methodist Dallas are all community programs, I believe, and thus rank "lower". Though if you have specific goals they can be very good choices (i.e. doing a Baylor residency and staying in house for their very solid GI fellowship). It will be interesting to see where the UTSW-Austin program goes; this is the first year of the affiliation, and the infrastructure and track record are just not there yet. It would be sweet for future folks to have a solid program in that city, imo.

I think the tiers here are pretty cut and dry. Beyond that, assigning specific numerical ranks to programs without knowing the personal preferences and career goals of the specific individual involved - whether in Texas or elsewhere - becomes a fool's errand (Though that doesn't stop people on this board from trying )

 

[Doctor&Geek]

The search function is your friend - a month ago a poster had a very similar post:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=771486

 

[uncmdphd]

So there are a lot of IM programs in Texas, and I was wondering how you all would rank these programs (listed in no specific order):

UTSW
Baylor
UT Houston
UT San Antonio
UTMB
Texas A&M Scott & White
Texas Tech
Baylor Dallas
UTSW Austin Program
Methodist Dallas
Methodist Houston
Presbyterian Dallas

Any help is appreciated!

1. UTSW, no doubts here, medicine is king in Dallas. You'll work harder but will significantly improve your chances of fellowship. You'll also earn some credibility for having survived this training program. To the world outside of Texas (surprisingly it does exist), this is really the only Texas-based program that carries weight.
2. UT Houston. You've got some world famous faculty here who can really teach. Frank Arnett, James Willerson, guys who are in the top of their fields (Rheumatology and Cardiology, respectively)
3. Baylor. A program still in limbo, but reputation alone helps it rank above the other programs below.
4. UT San Antonio and UTMB pretty much are equal
5. Baylor Dallas.

I won't rank the other programs as your chances of fellowship will be limited. If you're interested in remaining in the Southwest area, strongly consider Denver's training programs.

 

[ResidencyApp]

Thanks for the responses everyone! More opinions are welcomed!

 

[texasguy]

Thanks for the responses everyone! More opinions are welcomed!

Agreed, wonderful thread!

The insight into taking future fellowship desires into account is something often overlooked. That being said, can anyone shed some light on which programs would be desirable to go to for students interested cardiology, oncology, or GI (simply bc these seem to be the most difficult to get into). As a med student, it's difficult to gauge advantages/disadvantages of various fellowship programs in TX.

Thanks!

 

[texasguy]

So, the big 2 are UTSW and Baylor obviously. UTSA is an up and coming program, and may join the top of the pile soon (some folks think they may have already passed Baylor, but I think this is unfair and an overreaction to their "troubles"). Still, it's interesting gossip and illustrates outside perception, which is almost as important as the "truth" sometimes.

I have heard good and bad things about UT-Houston, Scott and White, UTMB, and Tech. I think they'd rank in about that order, but when you're dealing with the vast morass of "mid-tier" university programs, they're really all about equal; you can make slight adjustments up and down based on your preference.

Baylor-Dallas, UTSW-Austin, Presbyterian, Methodist Houston and Methodist Dallas are all community programs, I believe, and thus rank "lower". Though if you have specific goals they can be very good choices (i.e. doing a Baylor residency and staying in house for their very solid GI fellowship). It will be interesting to see where the UTSW-Austin program goes; this is the first year of the affiliation, and the infrastructure and track record are just not there yet. It would be sweet for future folks to have a solid program in that city, imo.

I think the tiers here are pretty cut and dry. Beyond that, assigning specific numerical ranks to programs without knowing the personal preferences and career goals of the specific individual involved - whether in Texas or elsewhere - becomes a fool's errand (Though that doesn't stop people on this board from trying )

also, does anyone have any information on baylor's "troubles" or is it all speculation...is there any realistic chance that their IM residency program could be affected by it in the next three years and if so how?

 

[uncmdphd]

Agreed, wonderful thread!

The insight into taking future fellowship desires into account is something often overlooked. That being said, can anyone shed some light on which programs would be desirable to go to for students interested cardiology, oncology, or GI (simply bc these seem to be the most difficult to get into). As a med student, it's difficult to gauge advantages/disadvantages of various fellowship programs in TX.

Thanks!

The most competitive fellowships are Allergy/Immunology, Cards, and GI. The "next tier" fellowships with notable difficulty in securing a fellowship are Pulmonary/Critical Care and Heme/Onc.

That being said, as you are an MD/PhD student (I can only assume), you should focus on short tracking into the fellowship you desire, especially at a name brand institution that has the fellowship you are looking for. You can start early by looking up the researchers you are most interested in collaborating with. This is more than just a foot in the door when it comes to residency and fellowship training.

If short tracking is not in the mix for you, UTSW is probably the only institution from Texas that will give you guaranteed access to both east/west coast fellowship training programs. You can still accomplish this by going to places like UT Houston and Baylor, but it'll be somewhat of an uphill battle.

Take it from someone who went to Med School in Houston then left for residency training on the East Coast. There are very few schools in the midwest/southwest that training institutions in Boston, Baltimore, Durham, San Fran, Seattle, LA etc will pay attention to.

 

[obiwan]

As a current housestaff at UTSW, i can say that you really won't have any trouble matching to top tier programs in any specialty. i don't remember the exact matches from this previous class but all the blue bloods are pretty well represented including ucsf nephrology, wash u and hopkins pulm/CC, duke cardiology, and hopkins/MD anderson heme/onc but I will say that I think this past matching class is pretty weak compared to ones from prior years (i think only one went unmatched but that individual had a couple of roadblocks hurting them from what I heard through the grapevine) but also a lot of people stay in house just because we have decent programs in most of the subspecialties. As one of the heme-onc fellows put it who did residency also at UTSW and stayed inhouse, when you go across the country its pretty much a big pat on the back from all the programs just because of the reputation that UTSW holds. hope that helps.

 

[superhero16]

... To the world outside of Texas (surprisingly it does exist)...

My Texas high school geography book disagrees:

http://chelseahotelnumbertwo.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/texas-map.jpg

 

[ResidencyApp]

Can anyone expand on the "troubles" that Baylor in Houston had? I heard it was a financial problem, but I don't know too much about it.

 

[freezedoc]

1. UTSW, no doubts here, medicine is king in Dallas. You'll work harder but will significantly improve your chances of fellowship. You'll also earn some credibility for having survived this training program. To the world outside of Texas (surprisingly it does exist), this is really the only Texas-based program that carries weight.
2. UT Houston. You've got some world famous faculty here who can really teach. Frank Arnett, James Willerson, guys who are in the top of their fields (Rheumatology and Cardiology, respectively)
3. Baylor. A program still in limbo, but reputation alone helps it rank above the other programs below.
4. UT San Antonio and UTMB pretty much are equal
5. Baylor Dallas.

I won't rank the other programs as your chances of fellowship will be limited. If you're interested in remaining in the Southwest area, strongly consider Denver's training programs.

As a recent graduate of "2" - I must disagree. Arnett has retired, Willerson has little/no exposure to residents. Hardly anybody there teaches anymore, and those that did have either retired, were fired, or left due to politics. The program is certainly now below UTSA, and even UTMB after the hurricaine has a much better match list than UT Houston. The limbo status of Baylor does not matter, it is still far better a program than UT Houston. I am glad I left there for fellowship and graduated just in time.... Take it from a recent graduate that knows the truth about the program. PM me if you want more information and the nitty gritty. On that list I'd say:

1. UTSW
2. Baylor
3. UT San Antonio
4. UTMB
5. Texas A&M Scott & White
6. UT Houston = Texas Tech (and that's being generous to UTH)
7. Baylor Dallas
8. Methodist Dallas = Presbyterian Dallas
9. Methodist Houston
? UTSW Austin Program (too new and unknown)

 

[Pkboi24]

As a recent graduate of "2" - I must disagree. Arnett has retired, Willerson has little/no exposure to residents. Hardly anybody there teaches anymore, and those that did have either retired, were fired, or left due to politics. The program is certainly now below UTSA, and even UTMB after the hurricaine has a much better match list than UT Houston. The limbo status of Baylor does not matter, it is still far better a program than UT Houston. I am glad I left there for fellowship and graduated just in time.... Take it from a recent graduate that knows the truth about the program. PM me if you want more information and the nitty gritty. On that list I'd say:

1. UTSW
2. Baylor
3. UT San Antonio
4. UTMB
5. Texas A&M Scott & White
6. UT Houston = Texas Tech (and that's being generous to UTH)
7. Baylor Dallas
8. Methodist Dallas = Presbyterian Dallas
9. Methodist Houston
? UTSW Austin Program (too new and unknown)

Agreed. The financial status of the program has little bearing on your training in internal medicine. Perhaps it'll effect you if you're looking to get funded for a research project or if prominent faculty members are leaving for greener pastures, but patients don't change just because a med school has financial issues. You'll still get the same exposure. I've been interviewing around the US this season and haven't been to UTSW yet but I must say that Baylor is one of the better programs nationally. It is one of only 2 programs I applied to in Texas.

 

[kafkaontheshore]

Agreed. The financial status of the program has little bearing on your training in internal medicine. Perhaps it'll effect you if you're looking to get funded for a research project or if prominent faculty members are leaving for greener pastures, but patients don't change just because a med school has financial issues. You'll still get the same exposure. I've been interviewing around the US this season and haven't been to UTSW yet but I must say that Baylor is one of the better programs nationally. It is one of only 2 programs I applied to in Texas.

Well, you're right that it probably wouldn't greatly affect the nuts and bolts of your training. You'll still learn the skills you need to learn to practice. But if you are going for a fellowship, I can't help but think that going to an institution that's continually losing faculty members and research dollars may end up hurting you. aside from obvious part - losing concrete research opportunities and interaction with esteemed faculty - i just feel that money and faculty are also the main two determinants of a place's rep in the medicine firmament, and reputation - whether it's right or not - does seem to play a big role in where you'll eventually place for a fellowship. i'm not commenting on baylor specifically, i'm still applying there, but it's just my thought in general.

 

[uncmdphd]

Well, you're right that it probably wouldn't greatly affect the nuts and bolts of your training. You'll still learn the skills you need to learn to practice. But if you are going for a fellowship, I can't help but think that going to an institution that's continually losing faculty members and research dollars may end up hurting you. aside from obvious part - losing concrete research opportunities and interaction with esteemed faculty - i just feel that money and faculty are also the main two determinants of a place's rep in the medicine firmament, and reputation - whether it's right or not - does seem to play a big role in where you'll eventually place for a fellowship. i'm not commenting on baylor specifically, i'm still applying there, but it's just my thought in general.

I have to agree. At the time I applied for residency, Baylor was in the middle of it's divorce from Methodist. Peter Traber was running the show there, for better or for worse. The majority of my classmates and I avoided Baylor like the plague (at that time), too much instability and too many unknowns. The program director himself couldn't answer my questions regarding further losses of faculty and training sites.

On a general note, residency is really what you make of it, regardless of where you go. The workload will generally be the same, although expectations of housestaff will be a little different at the "top" IM training programs. Name branding does help with fellowship matching later on, but it's not impossible if you come from other programs, just somewhat of an uphill battle.

 

[vdawg2010]

Bump.... any updated thoughts on this??

So there are a lot of IM programs in Texas, and I was wondering how you all would rank these programs (listed in no specific order):

UTSW
Baylor
UT Houston
UT San Antonio
UTMB
Texas A&M Scott & White
Texas Tech
Baylor Dallas
UTSW Austin Program
Methodist Dallas
Methodist Houston
Presbyterian Dallas

Any help is appreciated!

 

[darkelven29]

UTSW > Baylor > other texas university programs (dont know much about UT Houston, SA, and Galveston)
UTSW Austin is basically a community hospital with UTSW faculty coming half day/week to give consults to local physicians
Baylor Dallas is a really nice hospital to work in as attending
Presby/Methodist Dallas are also nice/cush community hospitals with good benefits/packages for residents
UTSW Parkland is county hospital, main training place. If Dallas suits you, I would seek training at UTSW then go work in one of the community hospitals. I doubt very many would rank Baylor over UTSW.

 

[ihatescience]

definitely interested in Baylor more than UTSW (though it's mainly because I don't want 3-5 months of ICU each year)...

 

[vdawg2010]

what are peoples opinions of Methodist in Houston versus Methodist in Dallas versus UTMB in Galveston? I am not sure if I want to go on to fellowship or just become a hospitalist and so I want to keep my options open. I come from a top 20 med school.

 

[gutonc]

what are peoples opinions of Methodist in Houston versus Methodist in Dallas versus UTMB in Galveston? I am not sure if I want to go on to fellowship or just become a hospitalist. I come from a top 20 med school and like the idea of keeping my options open.

If you are graduating from a "Top 20" med school, why are any of these programs even on your safety list? Serious question.

 

[vdawg2010]

They are not my safety programs, they are the programs I am considering between in addition to SLU (St. Louis University) and RUSH University. I did not do well (low Step 1 score) in Med School for a number of reasons. And I think going to such an academic medical school was not the environment for me. I would like a program that is more patient oriented instead of doctor ego oriented.

Gutonc, its not all about the US News Rankings.

 

[gutonc]

They are not my safety programs, they are the programs I am considering between in addition to SLU (St. Louis University) and RUSH University. I did not do well (low Step 1 score) in Med School for a number of reasons. And I think going to such an academic medical school was not the environment for me. I would like a program that is more patient oriented instead of doctor ego oriented.

Gutonc, its not all about the US News Rankings.

I think the USNWR list is total bull****. That's not what I was getting at. And to answer your question, Rush and SLU over all of the TX programs you mentioned.

 

[obiwan]

So its been a while since I've interviewed but IMO, UT houston/san antonio/scott white are more or less on the same level. as a whole, the only real difference is location but they're all more or less comparable in size of program with UTH being the biggest and train at large hospitals. if your plan is to do cardiology at cleveland clinic or H/O at MSK, then it will be a lot harder for you to get your foot in the door versus what is considered the top program in Texas at UTSW.

And like gutonc said, there really isn't a reason you need to be considering places like Methodist Dallas. Even a place like Scott/White is a respected program with a less "ivory tower" persona like a UTSW if something like that turns you off.

 

[vdawg2010]

wow, really? Methodist Dallas is that bad? What about Methodist Houston? Im not thinking of doing fellowship at cleveland clinic but I may want to do fellowship somewhere, not sure yet, I wanna keep my options open for now.

Lets say SLU and RUSH were not a choice (i.e. if they dont rank me), I am stuck between these Texas Programs. How would you guys rank them: Methodist Dallas; Methodist Houston; UTMB Galveston

 

[obiwan]

wow, really? Methodist Dallas is that bad? What about Methodist Houston? Im not thinking of doing fellowship at cleveland clinic but I may want to do fellowship somewhere, not sure yet, I wanna keep my options open for now.

Lets say SLU and RUSH were not a choice (i.e. if they dont rank me), I am stuck between these Texas Programs. How would you guys rank them: Methodist Dallas; Methodist Houston; UTMB Galveston

UTMB > methodist houston > methodist dallas. i rank utmb above only because its more of a standard academic program vs methodist is more of those hybrid acadmic/community type programs even though i personally would rather spend 3 yrs in the texas medical center than galveston