Rant: Insecure & overachieving medical students, check your baggage at the door

[EM_Rebuilder]

Well in Jersey we don't have a choice...if I get out of the car, even to toss some garbage away, the attendants get antsy.

I bet they really get excited if you were to step out of the car for a smoke... lol

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[QuikClot]

Who's saying that students with "people skills" are deficient in knowledge? Here's where you tell me that the top students in the class are the best clinicians, right?

Just because someone isn't slamming away 4.0's in their classes doesn't mean they are deficient in knowledge. What would you say about someone with a C average in classes but average shelf exam percentile of 95? What about someone with a B average that scores 250 on the step exam? You don't have to be top of your class to have a good fund of knowledge or be a good clinician; much of medical school is far too in depth or too subjective to adequately predict who will be great clinicians. Are you going to tell me that having your patient encounter graded on a check-list is what predicts real-world likeability?

Go ahead and keep thinking, though, that grades are the be-all, end-all in terms of predicting the quality of a clinician. It will help you sleep for those 4 hours at night.

And if anyone actually believes that medical school is conceptually difficult, you're living in denial. Most students with good time management and a bit of good luck could be slamming 4.0's; we didn't get to top medical schools by being *****s. If some choose to let their physical health atrophy at the expense of great grades, then so be it. And if some choose to shove their lips up their attendings rearend, the so be that, too. If you think it makes you better or more intelligent than your classmates, you are sorely mistaken.

Here's your analogy. Would you call someone who memorized the phone directory a genius? No, you'd call them an idiot because only an idiot would memorize what could easily be looked up.

-b

getting Honors doesn't mean anything more than you are better at brown-nosing and scooping than your classmates are. until the patient's give you your "Honors", your clinical grades don't mean anything. and if you disagree, you're either 1) a brown-nosing, classmate-scooping gunner or 2) haven't done clinical years yet

Did you not start this off by saying we ought to let go of our baggage, and not let our frustrations of the past embitter our future? Is it not clear to you that you are haboring a lot of resentment about people who outshine you academically? Would-be physician, heal thyself.

 

[Miami_med]

Hey now,

What about those of us with mediocre grades AND average people skills? No one gives credit to the middle of the class

 

[cbass1350]

Maybe it's just me but I honestly have not come cross too many 'malignant' personalities in my medical training so far (I'm almost finished with med school). Sure, there have been a few but they were in the minority.

Most attendings and residents that I have come across have been professional and approachable. I have rarely had anyone taking out their personal problems on me.

Then again, it's possible to have a string of bad lucks in a more competitive institution and come across these types of personalities. If so, you have my sympathy. The best thing to do in these situations is to just get through it and move on.

 

[typeB-md]

Did you not start this off by saying we ought to let go of our baggage, and not let our frustrations of the past embitter our future? Is it not clear to you that you are haboring a lot of resentment about people who outshine you academically? Would-be physician, heal thyself.

If you didn't catch the title, this was a rant. You do know what a rant is, correct?

And i don't harbor resentment about those who outshine me academically. I harbor resentment that these people act like they are somehow superior to other students. And I harbor resentment that these people also go into academics and use their superiority complex to screw over other medical students.

And I'll say this as i did before, if you think most medical students are incapabale of "shining" like the top students, you are fooling yourself. Just because they don't doesn't mean they can't. People prioritize differently.

 

[OncoCaP]

Hey now,

What about those of us with mediocre grades AND average people skills? No one gives credit to the middle of the class

They are going to be the rich doctors that all the patients fawn over when the top of the class slaves away in academia.

 

[turkleton]

For a person who is super critical of the insecurity of his supervisors, the OP is demonstrating a significant amount himself. Med school can be demoralizing at times and it is certainly frustrating to accomodate to the subjective grading of third year. I didn't have the greatest experience with clerkship directors either, but I'm reminded of something from 'Bowling for Columbine' where in an interview with Matt Stone he says "I wish someone could have pulled those kids aside and told them its only for 4 years". Three suggestions to the OP: 1. Deal with the adversity- maintaining your mettle in an environment designed to break it will pay you large dividends in your future. And don't wallow in same spiral of insecurity you say is plauging your instructors. If you think you're intelligent, fine, don't go broadcasting that you think no one else does. 2. No one likes the way med school is structured, from the last kid in the class to Mr. AOA superstar. 3. If you're so hell bent on changing the environment, you'll have your opportunity as a resident and should you choose so as an attending in a med school.

 

[OrangeTide]

Nice try, dragging in the foreign students. I'm not interested in getting into a stupid argument because you want to put words in my mouth.

No, but I certainly hope you're aware enough to realize what you suggested/implied. You have to watch what you say now a days because there will always be someone out to get you. We are the fish, the lawyers are the sharks (true quote from a buddy of mine in law school).

 

[OrangeTide]

I don't think this is what Tired was implying at all. And this is taking the conversation in an entirely different direction, but to answer your question my guess is that internationals have to study more simply because of the language barrier, regardless of intelligence.

I don't think it was what he was implying either, but welcome to patients hearing one thing and telling their lawyer another.

Also, I was always told math, science and engineering was this big, huge universal language which united space and time.... but i was lied to a lot in undergrad so I could be wrong.

 

[Tired]

No, but I certainly hope you're aware enough to realize what you suggested/implied. You have to watch what you say now a days because there will always be someone out to get you. We are the fish, the lawyers are the sharks (true quote from a buddy of mine in law school).

Let's review:

1) I originally said, and I quote, "There are plenty of people who can hold a normal conversation, and who are bright enough not to need to spend 18hrs a day in the library. Med schools are filled with them." You are the one who drew out that I was really talking about foreign students. Why? Because you seem to think that foreign students spend more time in the library than American students. I steadfastly disagree with that proposition, but if you want to hold it, that's your business.

2) "We are the fish, the lawyers are the sharks"? That's just nonsense. If you're that scared of getting sued, get out of medicine and go sell cars for a living. For myself, I don't censor my words based on on an irrational fear of lawsuits.

3) If you check my previous posts, you will find that I have been fairly consistent is saying that I believe American students are more intelligent than foreign students. I am not ashamed to say that, and I do not need to "suggest/imply" it, I just say it. I am not afraid of my words, or my opinions.

4) In the future, I have no need of you telling me what I "really" meant by my posts. I have no trouble getting myself into trouble with what I actually "really" mean.

 

[Dookter]

Not much. I've seen someone do this before. It was...a teenage woman/girl (suprised?) who put the nozzel in and flicked that little switch to pump automatically, she starts gabbing with her friend in the car, cleaning her windows (she was pretty fine so I was paying attention) then she gets in the car and talks some more...fires it up and drives away. So getting to the point....if you look at the hose goig from the nozzel to the pump, there is a joint in there, it pops appart and has a valve to shut off gas flow from the pump. So all that really happens is the hose falls on the ground, some gas spills out the nozzel side (not much) and people laugh thier asses off and point at you.

Yeah, I've seen this happen too. Pretty funny stuff.

 

[Droopy Snoopy]

I don't think it was what he was implying either, but welcome to patients hearing one thing and telling their lawyer another.

Oh, I guess I misunderstood you :

question though, the int'l students found at every major university that do spend 18+ hours a day in the library, are they just stupider than Americans? I think you may be implying that based on your comment.

Also, I was always told math, science and engineering was this big, huge universal language which united space and time.... but i was lied to a lot in undergrad so I could be wrong.

C'mon man, you're the one who said foreign students have to spend more time studying, and I offered the explanation that it's not because they're stupid but because they're doing it a second or third language. If I not only had to learn the names, classes, indications and CI's, adverse effects, and administrations of 90-odd chemotherapeutic agents but had to do it in Japanese, yeah I might have to put in a few extra hours of study. It doesn't have anything to do with the "big, huge universal language" of math and science. I think you're being deliberately dense to hijack the thread with all this stuff about IMG's, medical malpractice, and strange quotes from your law school buddies. So I'm going to stop feeding the troll now and you can argue with yourself all you want.

 

[typeB-md]

Let's review:


3) If you check my previous posts, you will find that I have been fairly consistent is saying that I believe American students are more intelligent than foreign students. I am not ashamed to say that, and I do not need to "suggest/imply" it, I just say it. I am not afraid of my words, or my opinions.

So what leads you to believe that American students are more intelligent than foreign students? I'm interested to hear this.

 

[typeB-md]

Also, something that people seem to be losing is that you can have good grades AND be good with people BUT still be insecure and act on these insecurities.

I know plenty of people that are smart and interactive that have very big insecurities. Unmarried and ugly attendings will usually treat good-looking, married women differently. Short men will usually treat tall men differently. Out of shape people tend to discriminate against fit people.

Most physicians and medical student are NOT secure in who they are. The evidence of this is the fact that many students and physicians are very willing to destroy their physical and mental health in their quest to achieve greatness and importance. People secure in their person could not care less about what other people think; these people are usually more than happy being out of the spotlight, doing their own thing and going unnoticed. The insecure people, on the other hand, tend to do things to get themselves noticed; clerkship directors, class presidents... these positions are usually sought by insecure people who need power over others to vindicate their own self importance. then when these people get in power, their biases are left unchecked. this is one of the most universal truths that ever existed.

next i'll probably be hearing that napoleon conquered europe because he was a well-adjusted and self-secure person who just happened to be more intelligent than other europeans.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

So what leads you to believe that American students are more intelligent than foreign students? I'm interested to hear this.

Curious about this one, too. I think intelligence is pretty evenly distributed, so I don't get why Americans would be smarter than non-Americans. Well, unless you believe god specially blesses America and all that jazz.

 

[AmoryBlaine]

getting Honors doesn't mean anything more than you are better at brown-nosing and scooping than your classmates are. until the patient's give you your "Honors", your clinical grades don't mean anything. and if you disagree, you're either 1) a brown-nosing, classmate-scooping gunner or 2) haven't done clinical years yet

and the person who memorized Harrison's, i wouldn't call an idiot, but i'd say they most likely employed poor time management. for those that are going into surgery, what good is biochemistry? for those going into psychiatry, what good is anatomy? sure these might be fun subjects, but just because someone doesn't master a subject doesn't mean they aren't capable of mastery. some people like to prioritize instead of mindlessly memorizing information.

Ok, so I'll admit I was baiting you a little bit with the Harrison's crack. Let me reiterate: no one is advocating memorizing an entire textbook. But you said something interesting...

just because someone doesn't master a subject doesn't mean they aren't capable of mastery. some people like to prioritize instead of mindlessly memorizing information.

I think this too-often gets translated into, "I don't ever have to prove mastery of ANYTHING because it's all BS on some level."

 

[QuikClot]

:
And I'll say this as i did before, if you think most medical students are incapabale of "shining" like the top students, you are fooling yourself. Just because they don't doesn't mean they can't. People prioritize differently.

Why, I never said they were. What I said was that while you are telling people not to have a chip on their shoulder, you have a chip on your shoulder, and, boy howdy, you do. If you want to rant about something, and you're not trying to be ironic, it probably shouldn't be on the theme of people hanging on to old resentments.

 

[QuikClot]

For a person who is super critical of the insecurity of his supervisors, the OP is demonstrating a significant amount himself. Med school can be demoralizing at times and it is certainly frustrating to accomodate to the subjective grading of third year. I didn't have the greatest experience with clerkship directors either, but I'm reminded of something from 'Bowling for Columbine' where in an interview with Matt Stone he says "I wish someone could have pulled those kids aside and told them its only for 4 years". Three suggestions to the OP: 1. Deal with the adversity- maintaining your mettle in an environment designed to break it will pay you large dividends in your future. And don't wallow in same spiral of insecurity you say is plauging your instructors. If you think you're intelligent, fine, don't go broadcasting that you think no one else does. 2. No one likes the way med school is structured, from the last kid in the class to Mr. AOA superstar. 3. If you're so hell bent on changing the environment, you'll have your opportunity as a resident and should you choose so as an attending in a med school.

Well said.

 

[gujuDoc]

Feeling a little insecure today?

There are plenty of people who can hold a normal conversation, and who are bright enough not to need to spend 18hrs a day in the library. Med schools are filled with them.

Agreed.

 

[Biscuit799]

From what I've seen, everybody in my class tends to spend about the same amount of time studying. Granted there are a few outliers in either direction, but for the most part we all work when we can and take a break every now and then. I think the difference in grades in generally accounted for, not by differences in intelligence, but by a combination of study habits and study effectiveness. Most everybody is about as intelligent as everyone else, but some people just know how to study better. They make better grades. I think that more than anything accounts for grade variations. It certainly isn't a lack of prioritization: I think the competitive personality that makes it into medical school desires to do as well as they can, grade wise. Anyone saying "Oh I just don't care about grades" is usually using it as a defense mechanism (Guilty as charged). Granted they may not care AS MUCH as some gunner classmates, but they do care, and if they could somehow improve their grades, they would. I just don't believe that there is that much intelligence variation in medical school... I mean jeez, it's tough enough to get in, I don't think you can really stratify that much more. Some people just know how to study better than others. And when you're in 3rd year, you'll notice that some people are just better clinicians than others. Are they going to be the same people? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Granted people w/ a 4.0 first 2 years PROBABLY won't fail, but hey, it happens sometimes. And sometimes the 2.0 3rd year rocks their rotations bc they just know how to interact with everyone. Again, always? no. sometimes? sure. That being said, I certainly don't believe in some "rank shift" where all the bookworms succumb to their lack of people skills. Like I said, it's the minority.

That being said... I have no idea where some of you went to school, but I can think of a couple people who are at the top of my class that have ZERO social skills. I have a few classmates that have great GPA's, but are just awkward to be around. I DEFINITELY believe that that particular generalization holds true. Fortunately for them, social skills mean less in 3rd year than does impressing your attendings.

 

[gujuDoc]

Let's review:

1) I originally said, and I quote, "There are plenty of people who can hold a normal conversation, and who are bright enough not to need to spend 18hrs a day in the library. Med schools are filled with them." You are the one who drew out that I was really talking about foreign students. Why? Because you seem to think that foreign students spend more time in the library than American students. I steadfastly disagree with that proposition, but if you want to hold it, that's your business.

2) "We are the fish, the lawyers are the sharks"? That's just nonsense. If you're that scared of getting sued, get out of medicine and go sell cars for a living. For myself, I don't censor my words based on on an irrational fear of lawsuits.

3) If you check my previous posts, you will find that I have been fairly consistent is saying that I believe American students are more intelligent than foreign students. I am not ashamed to say that, and I do not need to "suggest/imply" it, I just say it. I am not afraid of my words, or my opinions.

4) In the future, I have no need of you telling me what I "really" meant by my posts. I have no trouble getting myself into trouble with what I actually "really" mean.

When you say foreign students do you mean those that went to an island school vs. an American school??

I don't know that I necessarily agree that Americans are brighter then foreign students especially when you look at the number of outstandingly intelligent Asians who are running a huge bulk of industries like the computer industry, engineering, and even medicine and research.

Fact is that at many foreign primary and secondary schools education is better, but when it comes to college education the opportunities are more for Americans especially at top tier schools where the latest cutting edge breakthroughs in science and technology are being developed and implemented. Problems only arise with foreign people when they don't simultaneously learn English as well as they learn their own language and then come here. That is why they tend to be slower sometimes when it comes to standardized tests. In countries like India, however, where good English schools are present you will find many people who do well on those same standardized tests and what not when they come here.


That said, I agree with you that a person does not need to be in the library 18 hours a day to get through med school. I have quite a few friends in med school and they spend more like 2-4 hours a day studying outside of class time.


That said, I agree that a person does not

 

[lil pook]

may i please take it upon myself to sum up the meaning behind posting this thread in a few eloquent words?....

MED STUDENTS OF THE WORLD, GET OVER YOUR FKUCKING SELVES...YOU ARROGANT SONS OF B!TCHES

 

[Biscuit799]

may i please take it upon myself to sum up the meaning behind posting this thread in a few eloquent words?....

MED STUDENTS OF THE WORLD, GET OVER YOUR FKUCKING SELVES...YOU ARROGANT SONS OF B!TCHES

Now there's a post I can get behind!

As an addendum to my most recent post on this thread:
Most "top" students tend to attribute their academic superiority to intelligence. As I mentioned, I do not believe this to be the case. I think the intelligence distribution for med students is very narrow, and the variability can be accounted for by differences in study habits/effectiveness. So get over yourselves. You're not that smart. In fact if you want to share your study methods, that'd be great.

As an example:
I have a classmate who is making above average grades, and is an annoying little $hit. She always has to "understand why" and any answer anyone gives her isn't good enough. Definitely a gunner. Anyway we have a quiz about G6PD deficiency, and the question asks where the person is from (it shows a preponderance in Mediterranean countries). The answer choices were: Columbia, Italy, Siberia, and South Africa.
So after the quiz, she states "I think he needs to double-key that question because there were two Mediterranean countries." We all just look at her funny. She continues, "Siberia is on the Mediterranean too." A classmate goes "Siberia is in Russia." She says, "Yeah, I know." So I proceed to tell her about Siberia and how it was a snowy wasteland where the USSR sent criminals to die in sub-zero plains of ice. And how it does NOT border the Med Sea.

Some people can't tell me anything that I can't look up in some d@mn book.

 

[typeB-md]

I think this too-often gets translated into, "I don't ever have to prove mastery of ANYTHING because it's all BS on some level."

Answer this question.

Why does a Derm student seek to do well in school?

Do you honestly think this student seeks mastery of biochemistry, neuroscience, physiology, and pathology because they feel the desire to becomes masters of the basic sciences? Or do they seek mastery because knowing all of those subjects in depth will make them better Dermatologists? Or do they seek it because they "have to" in order to be competitive?

The main difference between a Derm student and a lesser competitive student is that the lesser competitive student can afford to slack off. It has much less to do with intelligence and much more to do with "need." Now i've seen a derm student that really was a genius (photo memory and all) but that's not the norm. The norm is that students normally work as hard as they need to and not much harder. And the reality for the Derm student is that mastery of biochemistry or no mastery of biochemistry, there will probably be no difference in the clinical competence as a physician.


The bigger reality is that by the end of residency, no matter what your level of "med school mastery" was, you'll likely have forgotten everything except the most relevant information to your field.

Mastery is a hoop that must be jumped through, not a measure of intelligence.

 

[acute2]

2) "We are the fish, the lawyers are the sharks"? That's just nonsense. If you're that scared of getting sued, get out of medicine and go sell cars for a living. For myself, I don't censor my words based on on an irrational fear of lawsuits.

Is there some kind of phobia described as irrational fear of lawsuits? Just asking

 

[typeB-md]

Why, I never said they were. What I said was that while you are telling people not to have a chip on their shoulder, you have a chip on your shoulder, and, boy howdy, you do. If you want to rant about something, and you're not trying to be ironic, it probably shouldn't be on the theme of people hanging on to old resentments.

The difference is that my sentiments don't end up screwing people over. The insecure people, on the other hand, often end up in positions of power where they act out on their insecurities; and often times it is at the expense of someone else.

 

[typeB-md]

From what I've seen, everybody in my class tends to spend about the same amount of time studying. Granted there are a few outliers in either direction, but for the most part we all work when we can and take a break every now and then. I think the difference in grades in generally accounted for, not by differences in intelligence, but by a combination of study habits and study effectiveness. Most everybody is about as intelligent as everyone else, but some people just know how to study better. They make better grades. I think that more than anything accounts for grade variations. It certainly isn't a lack of prioritization: I think the competitive personality that makes it into medical school desires to do as well as they can, grade wise. Anyone saying "Oh I just don't care about grades" is usually using it as a defense mechanism (Guilty as charged). Granted they may not care AS MUCH as some gunner classmates, but they do care, and if they could somehow improve their grades, they would. I just don't believe that there is that much intelligence variation in medical school... I mean jeez, it's tough enough to get in, I don't think you can really stratify that much more. Some people just know how to study better than others. And when you're in 3rd year, you'll notice that some people are just better clinicians than others. Are they going to be the same people? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Granted people w/ a 4.0 first 2 years PROBABLY won't fail, but hey, it happens sometimes. And sometimes the 2.0 3rd year rocks their rotations bc they just know how to interact with everyone. Again, always? no. sometimes? sure. That being said, I certainly don't believe in some "rank shift" where all the bookworms succumb to their lack of people skills. Like I said, it's the minority.

That being said... I have no idea where some of you went to school, but I can think of a couple people who are at the top of my class that have ZERO social skills. I have a few classmates that have great GPA's, but are just awkward to be around. I DEFINITELY believe that that particular generalization holds true. Fortunately for them, social skills mean less in 3rd year than does impressing your attendings.

The "i don't care about my grades" is more likely interpreted as "the field i'm going into isn't competitive, this subject isn't important, and i'm not going to jump through some hoop just because that's what people expect"

I'll pose the the opposite question for you. Why do you think the most competitive students care about their grades? Do you think the Plastic Surgery applicant REALLY wants to master biochemistry or get Honors in her Peds clerkship?

although i'll agree that there will always be type-A gunners that just feel the need to prove their superiority.

and i like your last statement because i think many people falsely associate clinical grades as an indicator of people skills.

 

[typeB-md]

and do people realize that the 18 hours a day comment was an overaggeration? seems like there's a bunch of fixation on this. can't imagine why.

med students love to tell other students they're wrong. "Well nobody at my school studies THAT much. You must be at a lesser intelligent school where people need more time to learn things."

for the insecure, it's important to jump at every opportunity to prove superiority. just like the kid who always boasted about winning the "perfect attendance" award while never making the honor roll.

 

[Tired]

When you say foreign students do you mean those that went to an island school vs. an American school??

I don't know that I necessarily agree that Americans are brighter then foreign students especially when you look at the number of outstandingly intelligent Asians who are running a huge bulk of industries like the computer industry, engineering, and even medicine and research.

Here's where all the future-IMGs come after me. Oh well . . .

I believe the following:

1) The American educational system is superior to all other nations', including in the realm of medical education. I have no personal experience with other systems outside my own, but I do read. I also take the droves of IMGs seeking residency positions here as indicative of this.

2) I know that there are many smart foreign students. I believe, however, that our view of the quality of their education is skewed by the fact that only the best and the brightest make it to America, and these are the people we interact with. I believe that the IMGs we run into here make it through the match in spite of their foreign education, not because of it. They should be commended for having the wherewithall to teach themselves what they need to know to survive in our system.

3) I believe that the "large numbers" of talented Indian/Chinese engineers, doctors, IT guys, etc. is also skewed by the large population pool they draw from. It is also due to our inherrent blindness towards our own people. I know a couple very bright Indian engineers. I know many more bright American engineers. Nonetheless, I notice the Indian engineers because they are 'different' from what I normally associate with the norm.

4) Speaking specifically about medicine, I believe that if foreign education were equivalent to ours, we would not force IMGs to jump through hoops to get into the match, and we would accept their residencies. Other nations accept American licenses, while we do not accept theirs. I am very happy with this system.

That's just where I'm coming from.

 

[typeB-md]

wow. does this guy sniff his own farts, too?

obviously medicine is only about grades and board scores.

 

[gujuDoc]

Here's where all the future-IMGs come after me. Oh well . . .

I believe the following:

1) The American educational system is superior to all other nations', including in the realm of medical education. I have no personal experience with other systems outside my own, but I do read. I also take the droves of IMGs seeking residency positions here as indicative of this.

2) I know that there are many smart foreign students. I believe, however, that our view of the quality of their education is skewed by the fact that only the best and the brightest make it to America, and these are the people we interact with. I believe that the IMGs we run into here make it through the match in spite of their foreign education, not because of it. They should be commended for having the wherewithall to teach themselves what they need to know to survive in our system.

3) I believe that the "large numbers" of talented Indian/Chinese engineers, doctors, IT guys, etc. is also skewed by the large population pool they draw from. It is also due to our inherrent blindness towards our own people. I know a couple very bright Indian engineers. I know many more bright American engineers. Nonetheless, I notice the Indian engineers because they are 'different' from what I normally associate with the norm.

4) Speaking specifically about medicine, I believe that if foreign education were equivalent to ours, we would not force IMGs to jump through hoops to get into the match, and we would accept their residencies. Other nations accept American licenses, while we do not accept theirs. I am very happy with this system.

That's just where I'm coming from.

So you were referring to foreign med school graduates not foreign students in general???

 

[jonb12997]

Oh typeB, how i've missed you! :-D

 

[Tired]

So you were referring to foreign med school graduates not foreign students in general???

No, I was referring to foreign students in general. My emphasis on foreign med students/residents is simply due to my recent experiences with them.

 

[Tired]

wow. does this guy sniff his own farts, too?

You should try it, once you take a break from whining about how mean your faculty is.

 

[typeB-md]

You should try it, once you take a break from whining about how mean your faculty is.

What if i sniffed my farts while wearing confederate flag boxer-briefs?

EDIT: you're an orthopod, that explains your arrogance. i'm sure your Honors in biochemistry, neuroscience, cell science, etc. will be serving you well while you learn how to operate a glorified power tool. just remember to let other doctors know that there is a HUGE difference between your Honors and their High Pass; like 5000 hours studying and 20 lbs of lean mass difference.

 

[Biscuit799]

Here's where all the future-IMGs come after me. Oh well . . .

I believe the following:

1) The American educational system is superior to all other nations', including in the realm of medical education. I have no personal experience with other systems outside my own, but I do read. I also take the droves of IMGs seeking residency positions here as indicative of this.

2) I know that there are many smart foreign students. I believe, however, that our view of the quality of their education is skewed by the fact that only the best and the brightest make it to America, and these are the people we interact with. I believe that the IMGs we run into here make it through the match in spite of their foreign education, not because of it. They should be commended for having the wherewithall to teach themselves what they need to know to survive in our system.

3) I believe that the "large numbers" of talented Indian/Chinese engineers, doctors, IT guys, etc. is also skewed by the large population pool they draw from. It is also due to our inherrent blindness towards our own people. I know a couple very bright Indian engineers. I know many more bright American engineers. Nonetheless, I notice the Indian engineers because they are 'different' from what I normally associate with the norm.

4) Speaking specifically about medicine, I believe that if foreign education were equivalent to ours, we would not force IMGs to jump through hoops to get into the match, and we would accept their residencies. Other nations accept American licenses, while we do not accept theirs. I am very happy with this system.

That's just where I'm coming from.

Allow me to clarify, just to make sure I'm getting your message clearly:

Are you saying that a graduate of a foreign program, specifically medicine, is less well-educated than a graduate of an American program? If so, I agree wholeheartedly. Americans train the best doctors in the world

I'm assuming, per your example, that you're NOT saying a Chinese immigrant who went to Hopkins has some inherent intellectual deficiency.

You also seem to be saying that foreign students are not any MORE smart than Americans, simply because the foreign students we see are the "best and brightest," and thus we know there isn't some farmer in Mongolia who has the potential to get a 66 on their MCAT and 450 on Step 1. Okay, I'll buy that...

Sounds pretty reasonable to me, assuming I've got it down.

 

[gujuDoc]

Allow me to clarify, just to make sure I'm getting your message clearly:

Are you saying that a graduate of a foreign program, specifically medicine, is less well-educated than a graduate of an American program? If so, I agree wholeheartedly. Americans train the best doctors in the world

I'm assuming, per your example, that you're NOT saying a Chinese immigrant who went to Hopkins has some inherent intellectual deficiency.

You also seem to be saying that foreign students are not any MORE smart than Americans, simply because the foreign students we see are the "best and brightest," and thus we know there isn't some farmer in Mongolia who has the potential to get a 66 on their MCAT and 450 on Step 1. Okay, I'll buy that...

Sounds pretty reasonable to me, assuming I've got it down.

 

[gujuDoc]

No, I was referring to foreign students in general. My emphasis on foreign med students/residents is simply due to my recent experiences with them.

I wouldn't think what is true of training in medical field being better in america can be applied to all fields. I personally can say that there are some very very competitive engineering and computer science schools in India that outrun even MIT in terms of academics such as India's IIT. But I agree with medical school training being better in America due to the advances in technology and research and the greater funding the American system has to support such endeavors.

 

[danielmd06]

Thanks, and remember that knowing is half the battle.

Yo Joe!!

 

[lil pook]

type B: the future med students of the world NEED you to write a book on how NOT to be a gunner.

tell 'em all that it will be alright....that at the end of the day, everybody KNOWS they are supreme intelligent beings, and they don't need to become self absorbed, high and mighty, arrogant, all knowing, jack a$$es that people can't stand...just to prove that in fact, they are just that damn intelligent.

please oh please, can you do this?

 

[lil pook]

EDIT: you're an orthopod, that explains your arrogance. i'm sure your Honors in biochemistry, neuroscience, cell science, etc. will be serving you well while you learn how to operate a glorified power tool.

tee hee!!!!

 

[Tired]

Are you saying that a graduate of a foreign program, specifically medicine, is less well-educated than a graduate of an American program? If so, I agree wholeheartedly. Americans train the best doctors in the world

Yes, that is absolutely my opinion.

I'm assuming, per your example, that you're NOT saying a Chinese immigrant who went to Hopkins has some inherent intellectual deficiency.

Exactly. I am not commenting on racial or national differences in inherrent intellectual ability (which I don't believe in anyway). I am commenting on the quality of the education provided. A Chinese immigrant educated at Hopkins is, of course, as intelligent and well-trained as an Hopkins grad, in my mind.

You also seem to be saying that foreign students are not any MORE smart than Americans, simply because the foreign students we see are the "best and brightest," and thus we know there isn't some farmer in Mongolia who has the potential to get a 66 on their MCAT and 450 on Step 1. Okay, I'll buy that...

Sounds pretty reasonable to me, assuming I've got it down.

Bingo. I'm amazed no one other than the OP has torn me a new one for saying this. I'm also amazed I got sucked into making these comments by an obvious troll who has now disappeared. Oh well . . .

 

[Tired]

What if i sniffed my farts while wearing confederate flag boxer-briefs?

EDIT: you're an orthopod, that explains your arrogance. i'm sure your Honors in biochemistry, neuroscience, cell science, etc. will be serving you well while you learn how to operate a glorified power tool. just remember to let other doctors know that there is a HUGE difference between your Honors and their High Pass; like 5000 hours studying and 20 lbs of lean mass difference.

This is so amusing. Did I hit some kind of nerve? Are you a future-FMG? What are you so worked up about, anyway?

For the record: I am not an Orthopod, I am a MSIV who will be starting an Ortho internship in June. I have done well on my boards and clinical grades, sorry if that offends you. I have also been abused at least as much as you have, and probably more given that I have spent more time with surgeons than you.

I'm getting a better feel for why your faculty is taking such heavy shots at you. I mean hell, I put out the opinion (solicited by a troll, it's true) that the American educational system is superior to all other nations. Then, in order to express you disdain for my opinion, you trash an entire surgical subspecialty, and subtly accuse me of being racist (at least, I assume that's where your "confederate boxers" comment was going).

So please, tell us all some more about how great your "social skills" are.

 

[acute2]

This is a rant against all former insecure and overachieving medical students who are now attendings, clerkship directions, and course administrators. They are the reason why medical school is about as fun as having you face kicked in with an iron shoe lined with fire ants holding miniature bottles of hydrochloric acid... -b

Some are really a-holes. Some think they're different because they finished their MD program ahead of their students. Again, I said some, not all. Cardinal signs include tongue-lashing and arrogance.

 

[BoredRlyin]

Answer this question.

Why does a Derm student seek to do well in school?

Do you honestly think this student seeks mastery of biochemistry, neuroscience, physiology, and pathology because they feel the desire to becomes masters of the basic sciences? Or do they seek mastery because knowing all of those subjects in depth will make them better Dermatologists? Or do they seek it because they "have to" in order to be competitive?

The main difference between a Derm student and a lesser competitive student is that the lesser competitive student can afford to slack off. It has much less to do with intelligence and much more to do with "need."

Mastery is a hoop that must be jumped through, not a measure of intelligence.

I couldn't agree more with you. Of course I'm fascinated by what I'm learning in MS-1 basic science, but I don't LIKE studying this much. Nor do I like this nagging feeling inside that 70-89% isn't good enough.

Type A med student personality is driven by the anxiety that someone else is going to get something you really want and that if you just push hard enough, you can stop that from happening.

I think some gunners know that they're toxic to others, aren't proud of it, and couldn't stop even if they wanted to.

 

[sykosomatik]

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE check your baggage at the door and keep your preconceived (and often ignorant) judgments at home where they belong.



-b

many current attendings, clerkship directors, etc. were the shy, unpopular, unathletic, or unattractive people throughout the majority of their schooling. there is a ton of baggage and personal bias that these people now carry. the amount of projection that these people have is astonishing and it really exemplifies just how pscyhologically damaging childhood teasing can be.

you are as arrogant as the very people you judge. if anything, their attitude towards you are a reflection of your dislike of people like them.

get over your sense of entitlement. every dingus wants the other dingus to take the high road

you are the new breed of medical student that wants all the reward with little of the effort. if that's your attitude, you're going to end up like my dumb ass pediatrician...it wasn't after encountering this absolute disgrace to medicine that I developed such a disgust for bottom-feeder doctors.

medicine is a serious field. you have the lives of other people in your hand. many people have had their quality of life ruined by doctors who are absolutely content with their mediocrity. these *******es handout psychosomatic/idiopathic diagnoses by the dozens....but hey atleast they have time to shop for new shoes and go the baseball game while their patients are banging their heads in frustration for answers.

accept the great responsibility that comes with being a doctor. you have willingly accepted it the minute you signed on the dotted line. medicine is a higher calling, and definitely on a higher pedestal than many other careers out there. it requires sacrifice and a dedication to be the best you can be. you don't need to study 18 hours a day, but you do need to put in your hours.

you're just lazy and shifting the blame on to your attending and clerkship directors and their apparent character flaws. everyone is defective but you. you have a serious superiority complex in the way you belittle others and falsely/uncompassionately assume their behavior is a manifestation of their undeniable inferiority.

seriously, the entire world isn't jealous of your perfection and on a mission to make your life miserable as a result.

if anything, youre just jealous of the equally ******ed gunners since theyre being rewarded for their objective hardwork. if they want to give up their life for that, then let them.

don't worry about what others do. you pay the price you want to and get the outcome that fits you.

 

[jdh71]

This is a rant against all former insecure and overachieving medical students who are now attendings, clerkship directions, and course administrators. They are the reason why medical school is about as fun as having you face kicked in with an iron shoe lined with fire ants holding miniature bottles of hydrochloric acid. These people have screwed up medical education enough, and it's time for normal people to take back medical education and teaching.

Let met start by saying that medical education is not some personal avenue to amend one's own insecurities as is a trend at medical schools throughout this nation. It's also not for overachieving administrators and attendings to try and raise existing standards because, although the current curriculum produces students that are competent and well rounded, it doesn't meet their own personal overachievement standards.

Being in a position of power doesn't mean taking advantage of people who have no freedom of choice in the matter. It doesn't mean that because you had no friends in high school that you have to force students into being your friend if they want a good grade. It doesn't mean that you force students into doing 1000 hours of new patient write-ups because that's what you personally needed to do in order to master the H&P; some students actually can pick up these skills without seeing 500 cases of hypertension (this also goes for making students see 50,000 fake patient encounters). It doesn't mean that people who look athletic are automatically disrespectful; being an athlete and being fit doesn't mean they are going to beat you up like the football quarterback did back in junior high. Being good looking also doesn't mean that a student automatically thinks they're better than you; this isn't like prom where you were stood up by the prom king.

And let's talk about perspective and humility. Being an attending, administrator, or clerkship director doesn't mean you are jesus christ or the second coming of sliced bread. Outside of the hospital you are nobody, just like the rest of us. The person pumping your gas doesn't give two hoots of an owl that you are a maladjusted individual who oversees an entire minion of medical servants; they just want a good tip. You're not "cooler than the prom queen" now that you're clerkship director so be humble and treat ALL people how you would want to be treated; don't turn into the person you hated simply because now you have the means to do so.

This is just the tip of the an iceberg, but please, to those students out there that are considering academics: For the love of everything holy and for the sanity of all secure/well-adjusted medical students that will follow you, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE check your baggage at the door and keep your preconceived (and often ignorant) judgments at home where they belong.

Thanks, and remember that knowing is half the battle.

-b

Nice rant. Articulated better than I. However, it's like spitting into the wind. The system self perpetuates and selects for those emotional midgets because they will study and work hard like robots for the possibility of accolades and being better than the next guy. I can tell you're evolving, and part of the evolution process is accepting life on life's terms and that means that medicine will always be full of hopeless pyschological cripples. You only have you and you only have today and IMHO there really isn't enough time to rent space in your brain to the defectives . . .

Good luck.

 

[typeB-md]

you are as arrogant as the very people you judge. if anything, their attitude towards you are a reflection of your dislike of people like them.

get over your sense of entitlement. every dingus wants the other dingus to take the high road

you are the new breed of medical student that wants all the reward with little of the effort. if that's your attitude, you're going to end up like my dumb ass pediatrician...it wasn't after encountering this absolute disgrace to medicine that I developed such a disgust for bottom-feeder doctors.

medicine is a serious field. you have the lives of other people in your hand. many people have had their quality of life ruined by doctors who are absolutely content with their mediocrity. these *******es handout psychosomatic/idiopathic diagnoses by the dozens....but hey atleast they have time to shop for new shoes and go the baseball game while their patients are banging their heads in frustration for answers.

accept the great responsibility that comes with being a doctor. you have willingly accepted it the minute you signed on the dotted line. medicine is a higher calling, and definitely on a higher pedestal than many other careers out there. it requires sacrifice and a dedication to be the best you can be. you don't need to study 18 hours a day, but you do need to put in your hours.

you're just lazy and shifting the blame on to your attending and clerkship directors and their apparent character flaws. everyone is defective but you. you have a serious superiority complex in the way you belittle others and falsely/uncompassionately assume their behavior is a manifestation of their undeniable inferiority.

seriously, the entire world isn't jealous of your perfection and on a mission to make your life miserable as a result.

if anything, youre just jealous of the equally ******ed gunners since theyre being rewarded for their objective hardwork. if they want to give up their life for that, then let them.

don't worry about what others do. you pay the price you want to and get the outcome that fits you.

i'm sure i want all reward with little effort. in fact, i didn't do any work to get to where i am right now.

it's easy to see that you're a mindless drone who buys into the current medical education nonsense about needing to master every subject or else someone is going to die. when you prove to me that a plastic surgeon needs to Honor biochemistry, histology, family med, peds, psych, and ob/gyn in order to be a great surgeon, then maybe i'll listen to you. until then, keep the trap shut and get back to unselfishlessly slaving away for some institution; they'll make sure to give you a nice christmas bonus if you exceed quota.

 

[smq123]

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE check your baggage at the door and keep your preconceived (and often ignorant) judgments at home where they belong.

Wow. This is truly wonderful, excellent advice. I think that we should all follow this...including you.

I know that this is a rant, but it's a rant that was brought on by your own preconceived judgements of clerkship directors and attendings. For example, not everyone who makes AOA is a socially maladjusted jerkwad. The 3rd years at my school who were just elected to AOA are the nicest, most considerate and sincerely helpful people you'll ever meet.

This is a rant against all former insecure and overachieving medical students who are now attendings, clerkship directions, and course administrators. They are the reason why medical school is about as fun as having you face kicked in with an iron shoe lined with fire ants holding miniature bottles of hydrochloric acid.

You must have been really sheltered and coddled during your pre-med school existence. You mean to say that you've never run into power-happy, socially maladjusted a-holes outside of med school?!? You've never met the sadistic sales clerk who enjoys making customers' lives a little more miserable? The security guard in the airport who gives you a hard time about your laptop just because he's bored? Or the biochem lab TA who decides that, just because you misspelled the name of an enzyme, that you deserve a B+? If you haven't learned it before now - suck it up and deal with it. Yes, the system could be better, and no, students don't deserve to be made miserable just on a clerkship director's whim. But your rant isn't going to make things better.

 

[lil pook]

Nice rant. Articulated better than I. However, it's like spitting into the wind. The system self perpetuates and selects for those emotional midgets because they will study and work hard like robots for the possibility of accolades and being better than the next guy. I can tell you're evolving, and part of the evolution process is accepting life on life's terms and that means that medicine will always be full of hopeless pyschological cripples. You only have you and you only have today and IMHO there really isn't enough time to rent space in your brain to the defectives . . .

Good luck.

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