Rate the schools

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - DO' started by JET, Jun 30, 1999.

  1. JET

    JET New Member

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    Has there ever been an impartial rating of the different Osteo schools? Any opinions out there? Of course any kind of rating should be taken with a grain of salt. Nevertheless, I would really dig it if someone with some chutzpah would give me their opinion on which are the best schools. And try to be impartial, no rah rah for my school boo for yours.
     
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  3. DO DUDE

    DO DUDE Senior Member

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    The only "ratings" I'm aware of are those recently published in the US News and World Report "Best Graduate Schools" issue. There were several DO schools listed in the medical schools section under primary care. Other than that it's really up to you to gather your own information about the schools and decide which one would most fit your personal goals.

    [This message has been edited by DO DUDE (edited June 30, 1999).]
     
  4. DoctorDre

    DoctorDre Junior Member

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    I believe that these types of lists should not be used as the SOLE means of differentiating one medical school from another school. However, if ratings help to spur an applicant's investigation into the characteristics of schools which appeal to them and engender a thoughful choice of schools, then I am all for ratings. This ratings system was not intended to anger those protective of their school reputations, although I am open to critisism when it is well prepared. I based my ratings on my personal impression (I am a 3rd-year osteopathic medical student) of the following factors at each school:
    a) academic classroom reputation
    b) clinical/hospital affiliations and their repuations.
    c) board score averages for the COMLEX
    d) admissions selectivity
    e) geographic location (subjective)
    f) college policies regarding elective out-time
    g) established program vs. newer program
    h) strength of local/affiliated OPTI
    i) research dollars (public and private)
    j) facilities and educational resources
    k) class size
    i) other factors which I deemed important but don't feel like listing anymore.

    Here are my ratings of the top-15 osteopathic medical schools (top 2 with reasons):
    1) MSU-COM
    positives: best hospital affiliations, loation in the most DO friendly state, established program, strongest OPTI, average-above average research dollars, excellent academic reputation, admissions selectivity, modearte size of class, high board scores on Part II, part of a larger public university and funded by the state.
    negatives: out-time policies, location in a cold state, average board scores on Part I.
    2) CCOM
    positives: some good hospital affiliations, loation in a DO friendly state, one of most established programs, excellent academic reputation, admissions selectivity, moderate size of class, good board scores on Part I and II.
    negatives: out-time policies, location in a cold state, weak OPTI, some hospital affiliations are questionable with choice a problem at times.
    3) PCOM (tie)
    3) KCOM (tie)
    3) UHS-COM (tie)
    6) OU-COM
    7) NYCOM
    8) NSU-COM
    9) UMDNJ-SOM
    10) UOMHS/COMS
    11) UNECOM
    12) WU-COMP
    13) UNTHSC
    14) WVCOM
    15) OSU-COM

     
  5. jdaasbo

    jdaasbo Senior Member

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    Just a comment,

    I like your listing of things to consider when looking at the various schools, but i am curious about what you mean by "out-time policies". If you are referring to elective time, CCOM has six months of electives in the fourth year. Let me know.

    Johan Aasbo
    MSII CCOM
     
  6. mr russon

    mr russon Member

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    Ans what makes you the " Authority" , in rating the osteopathic schools? Please! I hightly doubt your top 15 list is as accurate as would the same list presented by David Letterman!!! So please keep your trivial remarks and rankings to yourself, especially when there is little or no evidence to back it up.
     
  7. DoctorDre

    DoctorDre Junior Member

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    I do not claim to be an "authority", but rather an informed observer of osteopathic schools.

    In reply to djaasbo, I was informed by CCOM that they allow their students 4 months of out-time electives during their 4-th year. If that is incorrect, then it should probably be removed as a negative.

    In reply to mr russon, you seem to have some hostility regarding the ratings I prepared. If you disagree with the rating, please provide your rationale, without insult, if you are able.
     
  8. libuser

    libuser Junior Member

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    DoctorDre,

    You obviously go to MSU-COM! You have to admit that your results are very biased. Hardly can you make a generalization for ratings of medical schools. This is only "your" list of preferred schools. Are you that knowlegable about all these schools? Hardly!! How can you really rate schools if you don't even know anything about them. Have you spent time at each of these schools, to really rate them 1-15!!??!! How did you choose between rating a school 9 or 13?? How?? What facts did you use to do this??
     
  9. KB

    KB Junior Member

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    Relax, people! The original poster asked someone to do exactly what DoctorDre did. I don't see anywhere where he/she claimed to be an authority on all schools. DoctorDre even stated that his rankings are based on his personal impressions.

    It would help all of us who are in the early stages of the application process if other people would post their impressions/rankings of the schools, like the original poster asked. Who cares if they are just opinions? We're all smart enough to realize that. But input about the various schools will help us in our decision making. As was stated earlier, rankings will help spur additional investigation into the various schools, which is a good thing.

    KB
     
  10. jdaasbo

    jdaasbo Senior Member

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    I agree, this is one man's response to a question that was posed. If anyone else has particular impressions of schools, go ahead and be constructive and post your observations.
     
  11. edgar

    edgar Senior Member

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    Johan,

    Just out of curiosity, isn't the 6 months of elective time in the fourth year a problem in applying for residencies? I thought the interview/match process occurs in the first half of the 4th year, so if you are doing electives at that time the grades/evaluations won't be ready until after the match. I'm just wondering, a DO told me that it is better to have most of your elective time completed before the match.

    EDGAR
     
  12. edgar

    edgar Senior Member

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    Just another note. I wonder if residency directors (especially of ACGME programs) care to even rate the perceived quality of DO programs. I remember prefontaine mentioning that all DO students are lumped in a pile anyways, and it appears that some residency directors know little or nothing about osteopathic medicine or our training.

    EDGAR
     
  13. DoctorDre

    DoctorDre Junior Member

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    Elective out-time (time away from a primary affiliate of your school) is limited at some schools. Out-time is an opportunity for students to do rotations at hospitals which they are considering for internship/residency. In my opinion, elective out-time is of the greatest value when it occurs prior to October of the 4th year. This timing allows for a program to have knowledge of your abilities prior to receiving their match rank forms for osteopathic internship. This may be less of a factor for those students who are not planning to do an AOA-approved internship. Also, I believe residency directors consider the quality of the osteopathic medical school as a factor, albeit a minor one in the scheme of factors considered important. For example, if you are applying to a residency program in Phillidelphia, I believe that a student who attended PCOM has an advantage over a student who attended OU-COM even if both students did a rotation in the department to which they are applying. I believe that this factor becomes even more significant in a school which requires students to select a primary hospital for 3rd year rotations. Students at the primary hospital hold a tactical advantage over students from elsewhere because residency directors are often faithful to their "own."
     
  14. edgar

    edgar Senior Member

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    Dr Dre,

    Thanks for the information. I believe what you say is accurate, because if you do your rotations at a base hospital where you'd like to do your residency you definitely get more exposure to residency directors. Sometimes it even goes as far as if you go to medical school in a certain region or city, you get first priority for rotations at non-school affiliated hospitals. I heard from a doctor (DO) that COMP students get first priority for osteopathic schools at many of the UCs and private med school hospitals in California. This was a major factor in my selection of COMP, plus the UCs/Stanford, etc. are very familiar with our students and graduates because many of us do residencies in California. Thanks for the tip, I think COMP evenly spreads out out-rotations in the 3rd and 4th years.

    EDGAR
     
  15. jdaasbo

    jdaasbo Senior Member

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    I am not exactly sure how the elective months are spread out in the fourth year. I believe that there is a good deal of choice and perhaps even some luck involved in when you have electives. There are also selective rotations, however. For instance, you must do a total of 16 weeks of surgery at CCOM (including some sub specialties of your choice). Some of those 16 weeks are selective in that the school gives you the option of arranging where you do that rotation.

    You want to do your audition rotations in the summer and early fall i believe. therefore it would be beneficial to have some (or a majority, but probably not all) of your electives in the beginning of your fourth year. AOA match day is in early january and ACGME match day is the second or third wednesday of march. I believe your residency rank sheet (ROLIC i believe it is called) is due in November (a rough guess) in the case of the ACGME match. I have no idea when it is due for the AOA match.

    I also believe that there is a home city advantage: ie NYCOM students ending up at NYC residencies, PCOM students ending up at Philly residencies. Medicine is a small world and you end up knowing the people who do the same job as you for your particular city.
     
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  17. av8r

    av8r Junior Member

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    So DoctorDre, you ranked OSU-COM last, huh.

    Well let me set you streight! First, we has superior fasilitys. Wile we may not have no kadavers to disect, The frogs we use is very compearable to humens. 3rd, our mcat scores is good and getting gooder. Mine was an 8 (total). Forth, We got great rotation opportunitys. We share them with our vet students. and rotate thru some of the most prostegeous farms in the kountry. We sumtimz work on humens, and sumtimz they is even naked!

    So DoctorDre smarty pants, you is now informed, and if you keep putting my skool down, I am going to make a voodoo doll of you in my voodoo class (that is one of our first year classes) and stik a kouple of pens in yer backside. That'll teech you!

    Seriously, Why did you rank OSU-COM last? Was it because you heard I was accepted there or what.
     
  18. DO DUDE

    DO DUDE Senior Member

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    Take heart! 4 schools were left UNRANKED!
     
  19. DoctorDre

    DoctorDre Junior Member

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    av8r,
    I stand corrected. Your school clearly has superior MCAT scores (I got a 7 total), excellent electives (voodoo, etc.) and top-notch field experience (Cow-tipping 101). I must be as ignorant as some have suggested to have not ranked your school higher. Seriously, one of my recommendations for medical school was written by a DO graduate of OSU-COM and I have a great deal of respect for him and your school, despite its #15 ranking on my personal list.
     
  20. Sheon

    Sheon Senior Member

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    It is a good thing to know how others would rank the schools (particularly if you know why they ranked them as they did). i am sure someone has ranked the DO schools before (at least in their minds). I would be curious as to what others think, and why.

    Thank you DoctorDre.
     
  21. edgar

    edgar Senior Member

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    I think it is very difficult to rank DO schools without bringing in subjective criteria. Many of the "highly regarded" DO schools (such as PCOM, CCOM, UHS-COM) have better academic reputations because they have been around forever (I believe PCOM turned 100 this year) and have graduated droves of doctors who have made names for themselves. I personally think PCOM should be rated higher, since some very high profile DO's have come out of there and they have a good reputation with residencies (both allopathic and osteopathic).

    Some people may value research above all else, and so UNTHSC/TCOM would rank #1 on that list, followed by MSUCOM, OUCOM, UMDNJ, OSUCOM, since these are state-supported osteopathic medical schools which run PhD programs in addition to medical programs.

    If you ask my opinion, your gut feeling for the school should take precedence over any perceived ranking. What's the use if you go to the most prestigious medical school and absolutely hate the school environment and the cirriculum? As you go to interviews, an untangible emotional component to choosing a medical school will heavily influence your decision to matriculate. I totally agree with the folks who have said in the past that it is good to pick the school that is best for you, and don't worry so much about attending a "name brand" school.

    Good luck,

    EDGAR
     
  22. JET

    JET New Member

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    Thank you everyone for your replies. Especially Dr. Dre, I found your list very interesting and helpful.
    JET
     
  23. Max

    Max Junior Member

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    I agree with Edgar. I was accepted at PCOM and LECOM, but chose PCSOM (Pikeville), the newest DO school. I prefer a small town and my family is less than 2 hours away. I have to admit that I often question my decision, mostly due to the headaches associated with a new school. This includes constant schedule changes, professor turnover, limited rotation sites, etc. But overall I think the school is doing a very good job and I'm extremely happy with my fellow classmates. If an applicant is mainly concerned with prestige then they shouldn't go to DO school to begin with.
     
  24. mr russon

    mr russon Member

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    just curious MAx, why you choose not to attend LECOM? Any specific reasons? Woule like to just hear your honest opinion of the school I am headed there this fall.
     
  25. Max

    Max Junior Member

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    Mr Russon:

    I was very impressed with LECOM, especially the faculty (ie: Drs Sexton, Glines, etc.). I know they got off to a rough start, low board scores their first year, but I believe they now have somewhere near a 97% pass rate. I enjoyed my interview there the most and chose a different school for personal reasons. And other than the winters, I think it's a great school.
     
  26. Sheon

    Sheon Senior Member

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    I'm not sure why subjective data is seen as insignificant. If someone has a subjective opinion about something it can still be useful if the person tells why they have that view.

    I just want to hear what people have to say about the different schools (particularly PCOM and NYCOM).
     
  27. jdaasbo

    jdaasbo Senior Member

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    I interviewed at both PCOM and NYCOM. Here is my feedback on these two.

    NYCOM: strongest feeling was it was way too overcrowded. Facilities were outdated and cramped. Library was terrible. The school has the reputation of turning out well trained physicians and I was told there that the 3rd and 4th year are the schools strength (in terms of clinical hands on stuff at their wealth of inner city hospitals). Another thing i did not like was that most of their faculty were MDs. Many of their department chairs at their hospitals were MDs. Though there certainly is nothing wrong with this is terms of educational quality, if I am going to get a DO degree, I want the majority of my professors and mentors to be DOs. The area the school is in is attractive but expensive.

    PCOM: PCOM has just as many students in each class as NYCOM, but has much better and larger facilities. They have their own hospital on campus (though it is now owned by Tenet HC, formerly Allegheny-as thus has some financial problems). This is one of the few DO schools to have any clinical facility on its campus-I think this is a real plus. They also have a large building for actuall doctors offices (ie clinical faculty for the school). I have heard that their OM dept. is not that great (of variable concern). Their library is adequate and they are building a new building on campus. They also have a reasonably good bookstore on campus. No on-campus housing (same for NYCOM).

    Both are good schools, but I would pick PCOM if I had the choice.

    Johan
     
  28. NewDoc

    NewDoc New Member

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    I too want to impartially rank the schools. Here is my list. From Last to First.

    15) MSU-COM
    14) CCOM
    13) PCOM
    12) KCOM
    11) UHS-COM
    10) OU-COM
    9) NYCOM
    8) NSU-COM
    7) UMDNJ-SOM
    6) UOMHS/COMS
    5) UNECOM
    4) WU-COMP
    3) UNTHSC
    2) WVCOM
    1) OSU-COM

    Like Dr. Dre, My criteria are based upon several scientific factors and formulations that I compounded in a 3-D XYZ database and used a reverse algorythmn anti-gravity method to produce the most impartial list ever created on the planet.
    Factors: female student attractiveness, my own familiarity with the schools. If I'm from the south, I certaintly know everything about the schools from the north, my expert status as a medical student.

    As far as the other four schools, it is to my knowledge that you are all so low on the ratings scale that you are on a separate list of International Schools of the Antarctic Continent. Please visit their web-site at www.myschool.issucky.com.

    Please don't ask us to rank schools. We don't have a clue. How about posters that are in school give the positives and maybe honestly give a couple of negatives? That may be the only thing we are an expert on.
     
  29. JET

    JET New Member

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    I'm sorry, New Doc, I didn't mean to hurt your feelings.
     
  30. DOGBOY2

    DOGBOY2 Junior Member

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    I recently had a chance to talk to two residency directors at major teaching hospitals in NYC who are family friends and asked them about DO schools and their impressions. Opposite to what I have heard here, they don't lump all DO schools together at least these two don't. They only mentioned the top and bottom. Top was:
    NYCOM
    CCOM
    PCOM
    Those three they said were far and away the best.

    Bottom
    NOVA
    PIKEVILLE
    WEST VIRGINIA

    AGain this is only two peoples opinions but they are residency directors. Make of it what you will.
     
  31. DO DUDE

    DO DUDE Senior Member

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    NOVA and WVSOM? Both of these schools were ranked by US News as top primary care schools...additionally, Nova is the only DO school to receive the AMSA Paul R. Wright Excellence in Medical Education Award....

    Strange.
     
  32. drusso

    Physician Moderator Emeritus Lifetime Donor Classifieds Approved

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    ...and Pikesville hasn't even graduated a class yet!! How could someone judge the quality of a school that hasn't graduated a class yet?? By the way, my very impartial list says that UNTHSC and MSU-COM both tie for #1

    [​IMG]
     
  33. prefontaine

    prefontaine Senior Member

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    The AMSA Paul R. Wright award is a joke. The way it is continually brought up on this BB, you would think Nova won the frickin' Nobel peace prize. There was nothing objective in the decision to give it to them. It was purely PC.

    Perhaps Nova and WVSOM ranked so highly in the USNews primary care report as a result of their grads inability to obtain residencies in anything BUT primary care.

    From my observations, the upper tier DO schools are probably PCOM, TCOM and Kirksville (no particular order).
    MSU would be up there, except their required clinical sites are weak. CCOM is overrated.

    UNECOM is my personal favorite, so I will keep it in a separate category.

    The bottom tier, again in no particular order: Nova, LECOM and WVSOM. My picks are based on years of observation, insider information and personal prejudice.
     
  34. alfredoatlas

    alfredoatlas Member

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    I have watched with great disgust as prefontaine has beguiled and belittle others as if he were anointed some kind of expert. Let me tell you something sir, begrudging a school because in you unworthy opinion you feel high primary care graduates is a indication of ability is ludicrous. If you bothered to read the U.S. News & World Report you would have seen these institutions had extremely prestigious company. By the way how if you are such an expert have not given any accolades to OUCOM. OUCOM is certainly one of the wealthiest schools, certainly has the most clerkship opportunities with 14 hospitals with the option of easily accessible outside clerkships such as the Cleveland clinic, and is a part of a major university allowing for a wide variety of high level research. In addition, OUCOM is on the cutting edge of medical education constantly researching and revamping it's cirrocumuli to better educate it's students. It is interesting how your constantly critiquing eyes missed all of this.

    [This message has been edited by alfredoatlas (edited July 09, 1999).]
     
  35. SD

    SD Senior Member

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    Hey. Can anyone tell me why West VA rates so low?? Does it have being in such a small town? Thanks in advance...

    [This message has been edited by SD (edited July 09, 1999).]
     
  36. prefontaine

    prefontaine Senior Member

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    alfred, have you considered anger therapy and spelling lessons? If not, you should, because your post makes you seem like one upset, ******ed hillbilly.

    When I think of major universities, eg UC/Berkeley, Stanford, Penn, Michigan, etc, OU quickly comes to mind. Right. You must be in appalachia if you believe that. OU is a middle tier DO school that primarily gets attention because the dean is the sister of Diana Ross. The clerkship sites are mediocre to pathetic and often barely able to stay open as a result of financial incompetence, eg Grandview.

    BTW, I attended OU and am a resident in primary care, so I am probably far more qualified than you.

    WV ranks low due to poor board scores, nepotism, corruption and the generally low quality of the students that they accept, ie southerners with poor verbal and social skills (and missing teeth). The habit of their instructors shagging their students doesn't add much to their reputation, though the member of the anatomy staff that was jailed for having sex with his daughter(s) did.
     
  37. Ponyboy

    Ponyboy Senior Member

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    A note about the US News rankings: WVCOM, NSUCOM and UNECOM ranked in the top 50 primary care schools because a large percentage of their graduates entered into primary care fields. The percentage of graduates entering into primary care is worth about 30% of the rankings. That's why those schools are in there, not because of their academic reputation or their reputation among residency directors. If you look at the rankings by residency directors (which is probably the most important ranking, because that's what we're trying to get--a good residency), you'll find that WVCOM, NSUCOM and UNECOM rank pretty poorly. They're all in the 100th to 124th range (out of about 145 medical schools in the US).

    Also, I think that the Gourmann report once had a ranking of the osteopathic schools in an earlier report. It's not in the current report but it might be in the 6th one.
     
  38. jdaasbo

    jdaasbo Senior Member

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    in defense of NSUCOM, i have met a few grads of that school and they have been better than excellent doctors. I have also seen their grads at Yale in anesthesia, Johns Hopkins in anesthesia and IM (and on faculty there), UMass in EM, The Lahey Clinic (ie. Tufts), and at St. Vincents in Manhattan in IM. I have not specifically sought out their grads so i know of only a few, but i am confident that they have no problem doing whatever they want to.

     
  39. Nik

    Nik Member

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    To prefontaine-

    Why do you put UNECOM in its own special category? Where do you think it ranks among other DO schools?
     
  40. Ponyboy

    Ponyboy Senior Member

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    Just about anyone can place in Anes. Less than 30% of all anes. residency spots are filled. That being said, I wouldn't judge a school to be competitive by the number of grads they can put into high profile Anes. residencies.
    Residency directors are actively recruiting as many people as they can for Anes. residencies because no one wants to go into that field anymore. With the lessening numbers of surgeries performed and the increasing number of nurse-anesthesiologists, physician anesthesiologists are going to have a hard time finding employment once they finish their residency.



    [This message has been edited by Ponyboy (edited July 10, 1999).]
     

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