RE: Why you should not go to medical school

[Dr. Bob Doe]

Hi SDNers
So I read this article about reasons not to go into medicine and I formed some pretty strong opinions, and instead of commenting on it (not enough space in comment box) I decided to see what people in the field thought hence SDN.

The link: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/abinaz...go-to-medical-school-a-gleefully-biased-rant/

SPOILER WARNING: It's gonna be a long thread, I am an ignorant naïve pre-med who has not even started med school yet but the author is someone who has, I don't know if this is allowed on SDN, what the author says in the article is 99% true but I believe it's all about perspective.

#1) Author's Reason

1) You will lose all the friends you had before medicine.
You think I’m kidding here. No, I’m not: I mean it in the most literal sense possible. I had a friend in UCLA Med School who lived 12min away, and I saw her once — in three years (UPDATE: twice in 4 years). I saw her more often when she lived in Boston and I was in LA, no foolin’.
Here’s the deal: you’ll be so caught up with taking classes, studying for exams, doing ward rotations, taking care of too many patients as a resident, trying to squeeze in a meal or an extra hour of sleep, that your entire life pre-medicine will be relegated to some nether, dust-gathering corner of your mind. Docs and med students don’t make it to their college reunions because who can take a whole weekend off? Unthinkable.
And so those old friends will simply drift away because of said temporal and physical restrictions, to be replaced by your medical compadres, whom you have no choice but to see every day. Which brings us to…

#2) My rebuttal
I am a pre-med student right now, although my work load is considerably smaller than a med student or practicing physician, I only see my closest friends from middle school and up three times a year, which is just fine with us and we remain really close despite my work load. It helps to have friends who have jobs, school and responsibilities as well. Plus with all the social media and forms of communication nowadays it isn't hard getting in touch or scheduling one weekend off every other month to hang out. I'm sure this will get harder in med school and residency but childhood friends have a tendency to drift away when you get into adulthood regardless if you become a doctor or a farmer.

#2) Author
2) You will have difficulty sustaining a relationship and will probably break up with or divorce your current significant other during training.
For the same reasons enumerated above, you just won’t have time for quality time, kid. Any time you do have will be spent catching up on that microbiology lecture, cramming for the Boards, getting some sleep after overnight call and just doing the basic housekeeping of keeping a Homo medicus upright and functioning. When it’s a choice between having a meal or getting some sleep after being up for 36 hrs vs. spending quality time with your sig-o, which one wins, buddy? I know he/she’s great and all, but a relationship is a luxury that your pared-down, elemental, bottom-of-the-Maslow-pyramid existence won’t be able to afford. Unless you’ve found some total saint who’s willing to care for your burned-out carapace every day for 6-8 years without complaint or expectation of immediate reward (and yes, these people do exist, and yes, they will feel massively entitled after the 8 years because of the enormous sacrifice they’ve put in, etc etc).

#2) My rebuttal
I got nothing, I can't really relate or give my two cents cause I've never been in a relationship or in love, nor do I plan to anytime soon.

#3 Author
3) You will spend the best years of your life as a sleep-deprived, underpaid slave. I will state here without proof that the years between 22 and 35, being a time of good health, taut skin, generally idealistic worldview, firm buttocks, trim physique, ability to legally acquire intoxicating substances, having the income to acquire such substances, high liver capacity for processing said substances, and optimal sexual function, are the Best Years of Your Life. And if you enter the medical profession during this golden interval, you will run around like a headless chicken trying to appease various superiors in the guise of professor, intern, resident, chief resident, attending, and department head, depending on your phase of devolution — all the while skipping sleep every fourth day or so and getting paid about minimum wage ($35k-$45k/yr for 80-100 hrs/wk of work) or paying through the nose (med school costing about $40-80k/yr). Granted, any job these days involves hierarchy and superiors, but none of them keep you in such penury for so long. Speaking of penury…

#3) My rebuttal
Here we go again with the whole best years of your life thing again. The belief that 22-35 are the best years of your life because you're young and can buy/do harmful substances that don't harm your body is kind of a backwards belief. Why is it that society says we have to live a certain lifestyle when we are a certain age? I'm 20 and I HATE those things, I'm sure other kids my age love them as equally as I hate them, but even those kids have work, school and responsibilities. Why can't I spend my twenties in an environment with people of my similar tastes and ambition, learning about stuff that I freakin love!!!! and will use in the future. Why can't one light a cigar or get totally wrecked from time to time in med school or residency? You are allot four weeks off each year. The thinking that the best years are behind you and wasted effect everyone not just doctors and it's a very poisonous ideology, imagine the good and fun you can achieve by pushing yourself each year to surpass yourself the previous year. BTW: no matter which field you're in you're always gonna have horrible, jerky superiors I learned that this summer with my first "real" job.

#4) Author
4) You will get yourself a job of dubious remuneration.
For the amount of training you put in and the amount of blood, sweat and tears medicine extracts from you (I’m not being metaphorical here), you should be getting paid an absurd amount of money as soon as you finish residency. And by ‘absurd’, I mean ‘at least a third of what a soulless investment banker makes, who saves no lives, produces nothing of social worth, and is basically a federally-subsidized gambler’ (but that’s a whole different rant, ahem).
I mean, you’re in your mid-thirties. You put in 4 years of med school, and at least 4 years of residency (up to 8 if you’re a surgeon). You even did a fellowship and got paid a pittance while doing that. And for all the good you’re doing humanity — you are healing people, for gods sakes — you should get paid more than some spreadsheet jockey shifting around numbers, some lawyer defending tobacco companies or some consultant maximizing a client’s shareholder value, whatever the hell that means.
Right? Wrong. For the same time spent out of college, your I-banking, lawyering and consulting buddies are making 2-5 times as much as you are. At my tenth college reunion, friends who had gone into finance were near retirement and talking about their 10-acre parcel in Aspen, while 80% of my doctor classmates were still in residency, with an average debt of $100,000 and a salary of $40,000.

#4) Me
This is an example of martyrdom. I mean with all the sacrifices, and pain and struggle you knew you were going into when you voluntarily signed up for med school you should be a millionaire right? First off stop comparing yourself to other people there are chefs who make more money than doctors, to each his own. Starting salary for a physician in primary care right out of residency is about 100K. The median income of the average Joe in America is 50K, most cannot even hope to reach 100K income in their lifetime. Albeit we have debt in the 200K's, but so do vets, attorneys and some attain 200K debt from four years of college. Yet vets don't have the same earning potential as say an anesthesiologist or even primary care doc. Army, Navy and air force service mean and women don't have the earning potential as physicians and in my own opinion they do the real sacrifice and get less respect.

#5) Author
You will have a job of exceptionally high liability exposure

#5) Me
True.

#6) Author
You will endanger your health and long-term well-being.

#6) Me
True

#7) Author
You will not have time to care for patients as well as you want to
#7)Me
I got nothing.

#8) Author
You will start to dislike patients — and by extension, people in general
#8) Me
I don't know about patients but I dislike the author

#9) People who do not even know you will start to dislike you
Me: With all the angry comments I'll get I find this to be already true and I'm not even a doctor

#10) You’re not helping people nearly as much as you think.
Me: I'm sure this could be true

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[lmn]

#1. I think you overestimate the time you will have in the later years of med school and throughout residency, sure you can get off some time, but it's very sporadic and generally you'll need that time to take care of all the things everyone has to do (but for which everyone else has more time to do), if you've ever worked even a 60-70+hr/wk job you will know simple things like getting groceries and running errands is extremely tough because the rest of the world doesn't operate around the clock and plenty of things close at 5-8pm, earlier than you get off every day. This isn't even mentioning the fact that you will want that precious time to spend with a SO or your family by then, as well as just wanting to rest and relax, you'll definitely want that after you've been clocking 80hr/weeks for the past month+. Sure you will get chances to see your friends, but combine in their busy life schedules (as you get out of college and older and older, you'll see how much harder this gets as people progress professionally along with starting families) along with yours, and it isn't going to be often. Sure this happens to a good number of careers, but you will be very difficult to keep up with old friends, and you'll likely lose touch with many. *I will say I don't consider this the biggest deal in the entire world, most friends come and go, but you always make new ones, and you'll always have a core set of true friends that you can be separated from for long periods of time and still be close with well when you can.

#3. Wait until you graduate college, I don't think this is something you can really appreciate as an undergrad. After you are out of college and everyone is working for a few years and starting to make money, your friends will be doing well financially, saving money, buying homes, travelling the world, sampling all the great things in life with their money and spare time, as well as starting their families. All extremely wonderful and fulfilling things that you will be missing out on for many more years - it doesn't have to be drunken partying/abusing your body, although in your 20's-30's you can definitely explore, travel, and experience things in ways that will be hard to do by the time you'll graduate med school/residency, repay loans, and be able to finance trips and find time to take them. We all go into med school because it's a passion and something we love, but you are very clearly missing out on so many of the awesome things your friends will be doing (you'll really see this once you graduate/get into med school)

Yes, med school/the career of a physician is filled with great sacrifices, you are really committing a huge portion of your life to this endeavor, but hopefully you're doing it for the right reasons and that you'll get through it all to find that is completely worth all those sacrifices and missing out on so many awesome things that your friends will be doing.

 

[WillburCobb]

I came across this a while ago. The guy who wrote it is a jaded, opinionated, sensationalist. Check out his other work if you want proof. Some of his points are valid, but his reasoning is very, very skewed.

 

[deanthedream17]

Regardless of how you feel about this you don't have any grounds to write this. You're a premed. You have not lived life and gone through the grind. Essentially all the doctors I have spoken to have told me they were very idealistic about medicine when they first entered it, but that changed one they realized how it really operated and when they looked back on what they sacrificed.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

#1. I think you overestimate the time you will have in the later years of med school and throughout residency, sure you can get off some time, but it's very sporadic and generally you'll need that time to take care of all the things everyone has to do (but for which everyone else has more time to do), if you've ever worked even a 60-70+hr/wk job you will know simple things like getting groceries and running errands is extremely tough because the rest of the world doesn't operate around the clock and plenty of things close at 5-8pm, earlier than you get off every day. This isn't even mentioning the fact that you will want that precious time to spend with a SO or your family by then, as well as just wanting to rest and relax, you'll definitely want that after you've been clocking 80hr/weeks for the past month+. Sure you will get chances to see your friends, but combine in their busy life schedules (as you get out of college and older and older, you'll see how much harder this gets as people progress professionally along with starting families) along with yours, and it isn't going to be often. Sure this happens to a good number of careers, but you will be very difficult to keep up with old friends, and you'll likely lose touch with many. *I will say I don't consider this the biggest deal in the entire world, most friends come and go, but you always make new ones, and you'll always have a core set of true friends that you can be separated from for long periods of time and still be close with well when you can.

#3. Wait until you graduate college, I don't think this is something you can really appreciate as an undergrad. After you are out of college and everyone is working for a few years and starting to make money, your friends will be doing well financially, saving money, buying homes, travelling the world, sampling all the great things in life with their money and spare time, as well as starting their families. All extremely wonderful and fulfilling things that you will be missing out on for many more years - it doesn't have to be drunken partying/abusing your body, although in your 20's-30's you can definitely explore, travel, and experience things in ways that will be hard to do by the time you'll graduate med school/residency, repay loans, and be able to finance trips and find time to take them. We all go into med school because it's a passion and something we love, but you are very clearly missing out on so many of the awesome things your friends will be doing (you'll really see this once you graduate/get into med school)

Yes, med school/the career of a physician is filled with great sacrifices, you are really committing a huge portion of your life to this endeavor, but hopefully you're doing it for the right reasons and that you'll get through it all to find that is completely worth all those sacrifices and missing out on so many awesome things that your friends will be doing.

Lmn, Thanks for catching something I missed. I will also say I don't consider starting families, owning homes and going on family vacations the biggest thing in the world, YET, until I actually commit to one person and mature I'm sure my feelings will change.

 

[WillburCobb]

Regardless of how you feel about this you don't have any grounds to write this. You're a premed. You have not lived life and gone through the grind. Essentially all the doctors I have spoken to have told me they were very idealistic about medicine when they first entered it, but that changed one they realized how it really operated and when they looked back on what they sacrificed.

Is this at me or OP?

 

[HappyFeet14]

The author sounds like a naive, bitter, person who has just gone through a retrospection episode only to find out that medicine isn't all the yachts, babes, and millions he had thought it was. I feel that if those who choose to pursue a career in medicine prepare themselves and come to terms with the sacrifices they are going to make (though only somewhat; nothing prepares for the actuality) and prepare those around them for those sacrifices, then the blow will be less significant. If, at the end of the day, you can look at the wealth of sacrifice before and behind you and still remain passionate about pursuing medicine, then that is a good place to be. The author was obviously not aboard that train.

EDIT: For clarification, by author I meant the author of the blog, not the OP.

 

[deanthedream17]

Is this at me or OP?

I think OP? Whoever said they were a premed and then rationalized why all the problems about medical school and medicine doesn't apply to them.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

I think OP? Whoever said they were a premed and then rationalized why all the problems about medical school and medicine doesn't apply to them.

I did say the author was 99% right, didn't I? And that most of the points she made were true. I'm not so naïve that I'll wake each and everyday thanking the heavens I'm a doctor.

 

[WillburCobb]

I think OP? Whoever said they were a premed and then rationalized why all the problems about medical school and medicine doesn't apply to them.

Ah, gotcha.

 

[mimelim]

I am probably one of the most gung-ho posters on SDN regarding working your ass off in medical school and residency and the potential upside of going into medicine. (see this as an example: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/3rd-year-unwritten-rules.1075823/#post-15308554), and yes, this guy is cynical and woefully ignorant of what other fields are really like, both in training, likelyhood of success and how much work others have to put in to do well. But, he does have many good points.

It doesn't make you a bad person to not be very altruistic. But, I think it makes the practice of medicine and the training required much harder. If you don't get pleasure/enjoyment out of helping people, the day just gets that much harder, because honestly that is one of the big edges that medicine has over everything else. We make a difference in people's lives and health. You certainly don't have to have this quality (many don't) to survive medical training, but it just isn't worth it in the end for most if you don't.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

The author sounds like a naive, bitter, person who has just gone through a retrospection episode only to find out that medicine isn't all the yachts, babes, and millions he had thought it was. I feel that if those who choose to pursue a career in medicine prepare themselves and come to terms with the sacrifices they are going to make (though only somewhat; nothing prepares for the actuality) and prepare those around them for those sacrifices, then the blow will be less significant. If, at the end of the day, you can look at the wealth of sacrifice before and behind you and still remain passionate about pursuing medicine, then that is a good place to be. The author was obviously not aboard that train.

EDIT: For clarification, by author I meant the author of the blog, not the OP.

Thank You. That' what I was getting at. It's all perspective and if passion outweighs sacrifice (after knowing and coming to terms with them all) then go for it.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

Regardless of how you feel about this you don't have any grounds to write this. You're a premed. You have not lived life and gone through the grind. Essentially all the doctors I have spoken to have told me they were very idealistic about medicine when they first entered it, but that changed one they realized how it really operated and when they looked back on what they sacrificed.

I know haven't gone through this which is why I'm asking others who may have. I'm trying to make a conscientious choice in spite of all the hardship and all the sacrifice.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

I am probably one of the most gung-ho posters on SDN regarding working your ass off in medical school and residency and the potential upside of going into medicine. (see this as an example: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/3rd-year-unwritten-rules.1075823/#post-15308554), and yes, this guy is cynical and woefully ignorant of what other fields are really like, both in training, likelyhood of success and how much work others have to put in to do well. But, he does have many good points.

It doesn't make you a bad person to not be very altruistic. But, I think it makes the practice of medicine and the training required much harder. If you don't get pleasure/enjoyment out of helping people, the day just gets that much harder, because honestly that is one of the big edges that medicine has over everything else. We make a difference in people's lives and health. You certainly don't have to have this quality (many don't) to survive medical training, but it just isn't worth it in the end for most if you don't.

Is this at me or the author?

 

[BrCo]

Honestly, if you're going into medicine for all the wrong reasons you'll most likely end up miserable.

Personally I can see the validity in some of the authors arguments because I have an s/o in med school. I definitely would've underestimated the truth to some of those statements if I didn't see it first hand.

Even so, I'd still pursue medicine even if I have to make great personal sacrifices. I've seen older physicians have issues with our generation of students trying to pursue medicine merely for a "lifestyle". Medicine isn't a lifestyle friendly career. If your primary concern is to have a cush lifestyle go into venture capitalism and high finance.

 

[mimelim]

Is this at me or the author?

Was just my thoughts on the topic . I agree that the author is a bit dramatic, but there is a fair amount of truth in what he says.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

Honestly, if you're going into medicine for all the wrong reasons you'll most likely end up miserable.

Personally I can see the validity in some of the authors arguments because I have an s/o in med school. I definitely would've underestimated the truth to some of those statements if I didn't see it first hand.

Even so, I'd still pursue medicine even if I have to make great personal sacrifices. I've seen older physicians have issues with our generation of students trying to pursue medicine merely for a "lifestyle". Medicine isn't a lifestyle friendly career. If your primary concern is to have a cush lifestyle go into venture capitalism and high finance.

You and the author both are both unaware of how hard other fields are as well. The only lifestyle profession out there is being an heir to a millionaire family other than that you've got to put in work and sacrifice. You should see how much hours investment bankers work it's disheartening.

 

[Falconclaw]

Yeah, I read this a while ago. I'm only a pre-med student, so my own experience obviously doesn't answer this question at all, but this just doesn't jive with the doctors and med students that I know. A lot of the med students do have good friends in med school and some degree of free time (although less than undergrad). And yeah, people in finance will on average make more money than people in medicine, but doctors do pretty damn well, and their jobs are a lot more interesting than the vast majority of cubicle jobs.
So while this person is obviously extremely bitter, I certainly don't think every (is a he a resident?) is like that. All the commenters seem to agree with him, but there's probably a lot of response bias there, since they would've found that post by using negative search terms about medicine.

 

[medschoolmyname]

The author sounds to me like a whining *****. Just say med school ain't for you and move on.

 

[BlackBox]

Regardless of how you feel about this you don't have any grounds to write this. You're a premed. You have not lived life and gone through the grind. Essentially all the doctors I have spoken to have told me they were very idealistic about medicine when they first entered it, but that changed one they realized how it really operated and when they looked back on what they sacrificed.

Oh boy

He/she can write about what he/she thinks all they want (1st Amend and all that). They don't have to be correct (although opinions are just that), but they can say what they want.

 

[BrCo]

You and the author both are both unaware of how hard other fields are as well. The only lifestyle profession out there is being an heir to a millionaire family other than that you've got to put in work and sacrifice. You should see how much hours investment bankers work it's disheartening.

Yes, you are right. Venture capitalism is by no means an easy lifestyle and I have little appreciation for what that path truly contains. I think though that if you want to chase money, chase money, but medicine is definitely not the route to be traveling if your primary concern is $$$ and high living.

 

[deanthedream17]

Oh boy

He/she can write about what he/she thinks all they want (1st Amend and all that). They don't have to be correct (although opinions are just that), but they can say what they want.

.

 

[listener23]

People who do not even know you will start to dislike you
Me: With all the angry comments I'll get I find this to be already true and I'm not even a doctor

I think in general people just don't like premeds, if you make it to medical school maybe they'll lighten up....

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

Yeah, I read this a while ago. I'm only a pre-med student, so my own experience obviously doesn't answer this question at all, but this just doesn't jive with the doctors and med students that I know. A lot of the med students do have good friends in med school and some degree of free time (although less than undergrad). And yeah, people in finance will on average make more money than people in medicine, but doctors do pretty damn well, and their jobs are a lot more interesting than the vast majority of cubicle jobs.
So while this person is obviously extremely bitter, I certainly don't think every (is a he a resident?) is like that. All the commenters seem to agree with him, but there's probably a lot of response bias there, since they would've found that post by using negative search terms about medicine.

The author opted to not practice medicine anymore. I'm just a premed too but a lot of the people I spoke to and on sdn seem to agree it's true. And you know what that's just fine with me, it's better to know now than later.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

I think in general people just don't like premeds, but maybe if you make it to medical school maybe they'll lighten up....

Who cares what people think? Live your life. Haters goin hate.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

Yeah dude you tell him. Go live in lala land. At least OP showed they are capable of understanding their opinion might be naive and subject to be changed.

Bro you know that comment was directed at you right.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

Thank you everyone for all your feedback. No one yet has said the author was wrong as expected but they didn't seem to have too big a problem with it or they just have a more positive outlook.

 

[NickNaylor]

I am probably one of the most gung-ho posters on SDN regarding working your ass off in medical school and residency and the potential upside of going into medicine. (see this as an example: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/3rd-year-unwritten-rules.1075823/#post-15308554), and yes, this guy is cynical and woefully ignorant of what other fields are really like, both in training, likelyhood of success and how much work others have to put in to do well. But, he does have many good points.

It doesn't make you a bad person to not be very altruistic. But, I think it makes the practice of medicine and the training required much harder. If you don't get pleasure/enjoyment out of helping people, the day just gets that much harder, because honestly that is one of the big edges that medicine has over everything else. We make a difference in people's lives and health. You certainly don't have to have this quality (many don't) to survive medical training, but it just isn't worth it in the end for most if you don't.

I think this is really a key point that is difficult to appreciate until you start to experience the grind a bit. I couldn't imagine having the motivation to get through med school much less residency without getting some kind of intrinsic satisfaction out of the work. It would just be too tempting to do... just about anything else.

 

[masaraksh]

I think this is really a key point that is difficult to appreciate until you start to experience the grind a bit. I couldn't imagine having the motivation to get through med school much less residency without getting some kind of intrinsic satisfaction out of the work. It would just be too tempting to do... just about anything else.

Do you agree that non-trads, applicants from lower SES families, or applicants who have a decent amount of work experience in low/mid level thankless jobs are less likely to develop the feelings that the author writes. Such experiences/background really make one appreciate the job doctors have and what it affords. Also, there people will more likely simply understand that 'you have to work hard to get ahead'

 

[yankeebeckham]

With all due respect, I think it's a little bit funny for the OP to critique this physician's perspective of why being a doctor isn't everything she dreamed it would be before even getting into medical school! Yes, being a physician is an absolute privilege, but until you have woken up at 3am in the morning to go to work, or been cussed out by patients, or worked several weeks without a day off, or worked for 36 hours in a row, you don't understand that there are elements of the job that just absolutely suck, and suck hard. To respond to point 8--there will be patients you dislike and there will be days you dislike humanity. That's the reality of the grind of the situation.
When I first applied to medical school, I envisioned myself going from room to room, being super excited, saving lives. Now that I'm in the field, there are some moments of excitment, but there's a lot more of hard work, a lot of busy work, and a crap ton of BS. Would I still go into medicine know what I knowing now? Probably. But until you're in the field, you don't realize how accurate that article is. You just can't. Hold onto you enthusiasm as long as you can, but you'll realize that as you control less and less of your life, it gets harder and harder to do so. But then as you re-emerge from your training, while you've lost some naivety and idealism, you get some of the joy and enthusiasm back.

 

[lmn]

With all due respect, I think it's a little bit funny for the OP to critique this physician's perspective of why being a doctor isn't everything she dreamed it would be before even getting into medical school! Yes, being a physician is an absolute privilege, but until you have woken up at 3am in the morning to go to work, or been cussed out by patients, or worked several weeks without a day off, or worked for 36 hours in a row, you don't understand that there are elements of the job that just absolutely suck, and suck hard. To respond to point 8--there will be patients you dislike and there will be days you dislike humanity. That's the reality of the grind of the situation.
When I first applied to medical school, I envisioned myself going from room to room, being super excited, saving lives. Now that I'm in the field, there are some moments of excitment, but there's a lot more of hard work, a lot of busy work, a crap ton of BS. Would I still go into medicine know what I know now? Probably. But until you're in the field, you don't realize how accurate that article is. You just can't. Hold onto you enthusiasm as long as you can, but you'll realize that as you control less and less of your life, it gets harder and harder to do so. But then as you re-emerge from your training, while you've lost some naivety and idealism, you get some of the joy and enthusiasm back.

I agree, I think it is ok to speculate that you will feel differently for particular reasons, but to dispute him and criticize him, someone who has gone through the entire process and lived it without doing it yourself is unfair imo. I don't think you have a right to say you won't lose your friends, or you won't feel like you are losing the best years of your life (especially when you aren't even at those years yet), or that life won't feel like a martyrdom for all the work you put in and all the crap you have to deal with. You may have hopes of why you won't feel this way, or plans on how you will try to keep your friends, but you haven't lived it and done it, you don't have the slightest clue if it will work or you won't end up at least feeling a bit that way. I don't mean at all that this author may not have a jaded outlook, or one that is less common, but I think it is unfair to criticize and say how you won't have those feelings, or those sufferings, when you haven't walked the walk.

 

[circulus vitios]

Most of these can be mitigated by matching into reasonable specialties i.e. not surgery or IM. You want to be a slave for and spend 80 hours a week in the hospital then be my guest -- just realize that there will be no great payoff and that your patients won't care when you're dead.

 

[NickNaylor]

Do you agree that non-trads, applicants from lower SES families, or applicants who have a decent amount of work experience in low/mid level thankless jobs are less likely to develop the feelings that the author writes. Such experiences/background really make one appreciate the job doctors have and what it affords. Also, there people will more likely simply understand that 'you have to work hard to get ahead'

Maybe but not necessarily. My best friend is a URM from a blue collar family who did his fair share of hard work when he was growing up. He worked with his dad starting in middle school and had a job as soon as he turned 16. We met up a few months ago, and his opinion was that while the work of medicine is not necessarily strenuous in the same ways that that experience was, its orders of magnitude more stressful and, on the whole, a greater beat down than, say, mindless manual labor.

Take that for what you will. Anecdotes are anecdotes, but there's one for your consideration.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

I think this is really a key point that is difficult to appreciate until you start to experience the grind a bit. I couldn't imagine having the motivation to get through med school much less residency without getting some kind of intrinsic satisfaction out of the work. It would just be too tempting to do... just about anything else.

Do you agree that non-trads, applicants from lower SES families, or applicants who have a decent amount of work experience in low/mid level thankless jobs are less likely to develop the feelings that the author writes. Such experiences/background really make one appreciate the job doctors have and what it affords. Also, there people will more likely simply understand that 'you have to work hard to get ahead'

I'd like to know that too.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

Most of these can be mitigated by matching into reasonable specialties i.e. not surgery or IM. You want to be a slave for and spend 80 hours a week in the hospital then be my guest -- just realize that there will be no great payoff and that your patients won't care when you're dead.

Two questions 1) aside from the "lifestyle" specialties I.e rads and anesthesiology what are the more reasonable specialties ? 2) how much control over your schedule do you have after residency?

 

[circulus vitios]

Two questions 1) aside from the "lifestyle" specialties I.e rads and anesthesiology what are the more reasonable specialties ? 2) how much control over your schedule do you have after residency?

radiology, does not include interventional radiology
dermatology
ophthalmology
PM&R
FM
occupational medicine
radiation oncology
pathology if you're ok with an abysmal job market
heme/onc, but the downside is 3 years of IM
allergy, same downside as heme/onc
EM if you don't mind swing shift and working some holidays
psychiatry
anesthesiology can be lifestyle oriented depending on where you work
sleep medicine (sub-specialty of IM, anesthesia, and neurology)
pain medicine (sub-specialty of PM&R, anesthesia, and neurology)

I've heard surgeons say you have a lot of control over your lifestyle after residency but I don't believe it. You're going to work whatever the hospital executive/hiring partner/practice owner/etc. wants you to work.

 

[WhittyPsyche]

Do you agree that non-trads, applicants from lower SES families, or applicants who have a decent amount of work experience in low/mid level thankless jobs are less likely to develop the feelings that the author writes. Such experiences/background really make one appreciate the job doctors have and what it affords. Also, there people will more likely simply understand that 'you have to work hard to get ahead'

That's my thoughts exactly.

As someone who had worked 50hr weeks in addition to fulltime school and raising a family this article doesn't faze me in the slightest. Obviously the experience isn't exactly the same but the implication that working hard, a lot, and getting paid little is somehow the most soul crushing experience is absurd.

Anyone who had done their fair share of research before choosing a career path knows the average income in residency, knows the average work hours, knows that even after it all the salary won't have you vacation on yachts in the south of France. The arguments made seem to be quite obvious but not deterring to anyone who made a sound decision in the first place. The only shock value here is for naive, sheltered kids. I mean am I the only one that doesn't have some ridiculous idealistic view of medicine as curing patients left and right with my blessed hands all while partying during school and training, and spending beacoup bucks as an attending?

Your life does not end because you became a doctor. I think it's dramatic. Especially the monetary comparisons... Shows a great deal of ignorance about the finance world. I mean it's not even a logical argument to compare a venture capitalist with a hospitalist. Besides, plenty other fields work as many hours, have to lighten their social life and such. It's not exclusive to medicine.. I don't see why anyone would think it is. The average MBA isn't a millionaire, not even close, nor is the average JD, and by far not the average PhD.

 

[Aharon1010]

In all reality though, welcome to how tough medicine is.

 

[mimelim]

That's my thoughts exactly.

As someone who had worked 50hr weeks in addition to fulltime school and raising a family this article doesn't faze me in the slightest. Obviously the experience isn't exactly the same but the implication that working hard, a lot, and getting paid little is somehow the most soul crushing experience is absurd.

Anyone who had done their fair share of research before choosing a career path knows the average income in residency, knows the average work hours, knows that even after it all the salary won't have you vacation on yachts in the south of France. The arguments made seem to be quite obvious but not deterring to anyone who made a sound decision in the first place. The only shock value here is for naive, sheltered kids. I mean am I the only one that doesn't have some ridiculous idealistic view of medicine as curing patients left and right with my blessed hands all while partying during school and training, and spending beacoup bucks as an attending?

Your life does not end because you became a doctor. I think it's dramatic. Especially the monetary comparisons... Shows a great deal of ignorance about the finance world. I mean it's not even a logical argument to compare a venture capitalist with a hospitalist. Besides, plenty other fields work as many hours, have to lighten their social life and such. It's not exclusive to medicine.. I don't see why anyone would think it is. The average MBA isn't a millionaire, not even close, nor is the average JD, and by far not the average PhD.

I think @NickNaylor hit the nail on the head. Just because you know the numbers and the work hours doesn't mean that you appreciate the toll that it will have on you, especially after years of doing it.

 

[AndyQC]

I'll comment on a few of these.

My wife is now in her second year of residency. We've been together since before she started medical school, so I've been on the outside looking in for quite some time now and have a vague idea of what students can expect.

#1 - "You will lose all the friends you had before medicine." Patently false. You will not be able to go out partying with your college friends every weekend, but most people I know have had no problem maintaining friendships through medical school and residency. E-mail and Facebook make it pretty easy to keep in touch.

#2 - "Difficulty sustaining a relationship." Any high-stress situation makes it difficult to sustain a relationship. However, I know many couples who met during medical school. Several of them are married now. If you find the right person, it's easy to make it work.

#6 - "You will endanger your health and well-being." Of course there are some occupational hazards associated with a career in medicine. According to this study, though, physicians tend to be no less healthy than average.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11020591

#8 - "You will start to dislike patients - and, by extension, people in general." I hate to say it, but I have noticed that my wife and her co-residents tend to be a bit irritable. But, at present, they're working a large number of hours for a small amount of money. I expect to see them all have sunnier dispositions after residency.

Just my two cents. Nothing I have seen over the past several years has scared me away from applying to medical school. The author does have some valid points, but many of the doctors and residents I know feel that the good outweighs the bad.

 

[La Presse]

Look up "reasons not to go to grad school."

 

[yankeebeckham]

Agree with NickNaylor and Mimelin. I also wouldn't underestimate the stress of an extremely hierarchically system. When you graduate from college, you will have spent the formative years of your life being one the smartest people in any situation. Once you enter medicine, pretty much everyone around you is just as brilliant (which is exciting) and you start at the bottom of a very established hierarchy. People generally don't care what you think, but they will get upset with you if an immense amount of work doesn't get done according to their standards and the precise standards vary from senior to senior and staff to staff, which can be very stressful.

In terms of control of your life after residency, it depends on the type of setting you choose. What is your specialty? Are you going to work in academic medicine or for a private practice? Are you going to be a partner in the practice or are you going to work for someone else? It makes a huge difference. There's no blanket statement.

 

[yankeebeckham]

What's interesting though, is that everyone with "pre-medical" as their status is saying the author is crazy and full of it and that can't possibly be true. Or I'm going to work so hard that it's not going to happen to me. Or I have some insider knowledge and I know better. A everyone who has "medical student" or "physician" as their status is saying some variation on the the theme that we felt the same way before medical school, but as soon as we got some experience on the wards, we can understand where the author is coming from, and there is some truth to what she says. So instead of dismissing this article outright, it would be wise to see what you can learn from it. I keep running into pre-med students who say things like, well, "I may not be in medical school, but I get up before class to work out, so I know exactly what it' **** to wake up early." Unless you're there, you just can't know, which is not your fault. But you also can't fault the people who are there for the way they feel about it.

I think medical school is challenging, but I know it's nothing compared to residency. And I can't even imagine what that will be like until I get there. I see residents who don't spend as much time as I do with patients (I typically carry 3-4, they have a whole service) so they interrupt patients more and they have less patience than I do when it comes to a difficult interaction. They tend to exhibit a little more graveyard humor than I do because they're more stressed than I am. Sometimes they've forgotten more general knowledge than I have that's outside of their specialty because they're not applying it and I'm still at the point in my career when I'm getting home 3 hours before the residents and using that time to study. So instead of being like, oh those residents are stupid, jaded, impatient people, I totally understand the situation in understanding that I can't really understand the situation until I'm in their shoes. And then in a year and a half when I'm in their shoes, I will not be surprised if I find myself under the same pressures and acting the same way. I just think you need a little more humility in telling these physicians who actually have experience who are working extremely hard and finding the career to be difficult (which it is--medicine is not easy), that this isn't going to happen to you and that they are wrong for feeling they way to do before you've stepped foot in the arena. If you get into medical school, you can be the nicest, most competent doc in the world--that doesn't keep some dingus patient who doesn't want to be there from telling you F-off at 3 o'clock in the morning. And then your supervising doc yelling at you at 7 o'clock in the morning for getting a lousy history because you patient refused to talk to you and you couldn't get in touch with his family. A lot of the stress you'll face is completely out of your control.

 

[Dr. Bob Doe]

radiology, does not include interventional radiology
dermatology
ophthalmology
PM&R
FM
occupational medicine
radiation oncology
pathology if you're ok with an abysmal job market
heme/onc, but the downside is 3 years of IM
allergy, same downside as heme/onc
EM if you don't mind swing shift and working some holidays
psychiatry
anesthesiology can be lifestyle oriented depending on where you work
sleep medicine (sub-specialty of IM, anesthesia, and neurology)
pain medicine (sub-specialty of PM&R, anesthesia, and neurology)

I've heard surgeons say you have a lot of control over your lifestyle after residency but I don't believe it. You're going to work whatever the hospital executive/hiring partner/practice owner/etc. wants you to work.

What about general neurology, peds subspecialties and critical care medicine?

 

[DermViser]

The author sounds like a naive, bitter, person who has just gone through a retrospection episode only to find out that medicine isn't all the yachts, babes, and millions he had thought it was.

You're foolish if you think that is what the author was thinking.

 

[DermViser]

Hi SDNers
So I read this article about reasons not to go into medicine and I formed some pretty strong opinions, and instead of commenting on it (not enough space in comment box) I decided to see what people in the field thought hence SDN.

The link: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/abinaz...go-to-medical-school-a-gleefully-biased-rant/

SPOILER WARNING: It's gonna be a long thread, I am an ignorant naïve pre-med who has not even started med school yet but the author is someone who has, I don't know if this is allowed on SDN, what the author says in the article is 99% true but I believe it's all about perspective.

#1) Author's Reason

1) You will lose all the friends you had before medicine.
You think I’m kidding here. No, I’m not: I mean it in the most literal sense possible. I had a friend in UCLA Med School who lived 12min away, and I saw her once — in three years (UPDATE: twice in 4 years). I saw her more often when she lived in Boston and I was in LA, no foolin’.
Here’s the deal: you’ll be so caught up with taking classes, studying for exams, doing ward rotations, taking care of too many patients as a resident, trying to squeeze in a meal or an extra hour of sleep, that your entire life pre-medicine will be relegated to some nether, dust-gathering corner of your mind. Docs and med students don’t make it to their college reunions because who can take a whole weekend off? Unthinkable.
And so those old friends will simply drift away because of said temporal and physical restrictions, to be replaced by your medical compadres, whom you have no choice but to see every day. Which brings us to…

#2) My rebuttal
I am a pre-med student right now, although my work load is considerably smaller than a med student or practicing physician, I only see my closest friends from middle school and up three times a year, which is just fine with us and we remain really close despite my work load. It helps to have friends who have jobs, school and responsibilities as well. Plus with all the social media and forms of communication nowadays it isn't hard getting in touch or scheduling one weekend off every other month to hang out. I'm sure this will get harder in med school and residency but childhood friends have a tendency to drift away when you get into adulthood regardless if you become a doctor or a farmer.

#2) Author
2) You will have difficulty sustaining a relationship and will probably break up with or divorce your current significant other during training.
For the same reasons enumerated above, you just won’t have time for quality time, kid. Any time you do have will be spent catching up on that microbiology lecture, cramming for the Boards, getting some sleep after overnight call and just doing the basic housekeeping of keeping a Homo medicus upright and functioning. When it’s a choice between having a meal or getting some sleep after being up for 36 hrs vs. spending quality time with your sig-o, which one wins, buddy? I know he/she’s great and all, but a relationship is a luxury that your pared-down, elemental, bottom-of-the-Maslow-pyramid existence won’t be able to afford. Unless you’ve found some total saint who’s willing to care for your burned-out carapace every day for 6-8 years without complaint or expectation of immediate reward (and yes, these people do exist, and yes, they will feel massively entitled after the 8 years because of the enormous sacrifice they’ve put in, etc etc).

#2) My rebuttal
I got nothing, I can't really relate or give my two cents cause I've never been in a relationship or in love, nor do I plan to anytime soon.

#3 Author
3) You will spend the best years of your life as a sleep-deprived, underpaid slave. I will state here without proof that the years between 22 and 35, being a time of good health, taut skin, generally idealistic worldview, firm buttocks, trim physique, ability to legally acquire intoxicating substances, having the income to acquire such substances, high liver capacity for processing said substances, and optimal sexual function, are the Best Years of Your Life. And if you enter the medical profession during this golden interval, you will run around like a headless chicken trying to appease various superiors in the guise of professor, intern, resident, chief resident, attending, and department head, depending on your phase of devolution — all the while skipping sleep every fourth day or so and getting paid about minimum wage ($35k-$45k/yr for 80-100 hrs/wk of work) or paying through the nose (med school costing about $40-80k/yr). Granted, any job these days involves hierarchy and superiors, but none of them keep you in such penury for so long. Speaking of penury…

#3) My rebuttal
Here we go again with the whole best years of your life thing again. The belief that 22-35 are the best years of your life because you're young and can buy/do harmful substances that don't harm your body is kind of a backwards belief. Why is it that society says we have to live a certain lifestyle when we are a certain age? I'm 20 and I HATE those things, I'm sure other kids my age love them as equally as I hate them, but even those kids have work, school and responsibilities. Why can't I spend my twenties in an environment with people of my similar tastes and ambition, learning about stuff that I freakin love!!!! and will use in the future. Why can't one light a cigar or get totally wrecked from time to time in med school or residency? You are allot four weeks off each year. The thinking that the best years are behind you and wasted effect everyone not just doctors and it's a very poisonous ideology, imagine the good and fun you can achieve by pushing yourself each year to surpass yourself the previous year. BTW: no matter which field you're in you're always gonna have horrible, jerky superiors I learned that this summer with my first "real" job.

#4) Author
4) You will get yourself a job of dubious remuneration.
For the amount of training you put in and the amount of blood, sweat and tears medicine extracts from you (I’m not being metaphorical here), you should be getting paid an absurd amount of money as soon as you finish residency. And by ‘absurd’, I mean ‘at least a third of what a soulless investment banker makes, who saves no lives, produces nothing of social worth, and is basically a federally-subsidized gambler’ (but that’s a whole different rant, ahem).
I mean, you’re in your mid-thirties. You put in 4 years of med school, and at least 4 years of residency (up to 8 if you’re a surgeon). You even did a fellowship and got paid a pittance while doing that. And for all the good you’re doing humanity — you are healing people, for gods sakes — you should get paid more than some spreadsheet jockey shifting around numbers, some lawyer defending tobacco companies or some consultant maximizing a client’s shareholder value, whatever the hell that means.
Right? Wrong. For the same time spent out of college, your I-banking, lawyering and consulting buddies are making 2-5 times as much as you are. At my tenth college reunion, friends who had gone into finance were near retirement and talking about their 10-acre parcel in Aspen, while 80% of my doctor classmates were still in residency, with an average debt of $100,000 and a salary of $40,000.

#4) Me
This is an example of martyrdom. I mean with all the sacrifices, and pain and struggle you knew you were going into when you voluntarily signed up for med school you should be a millionaire right? First off stop comparing yourself to other people there are chefs who make more money than doctors, to each his own. Starting salary for a physician in primary care right out of residency is about 100K. The median income of the average Joe in America is 50K, most cannot even hope to reach 100K income in their lifetime. Albeit we have debt in the 200K's, but so do vets, attorneys and some attain 200K debt from four years of college. Yet vets don't have the same earning potential as say an anesthesiologist or even primary care doc. Army, Navy and air force service mean and women don't have the earning potential as physicians and in my own opinion they do the real sacrifice and get less respect.

#5) Author
You will have a job of exceptionally high liability exposure

#5) Me
True.

#6) Author
You will endanger your health and long-term well-being.

#6) Me
True

#7) Author
You will not have time to care for patients as well as you want to
#7)Me
I got nothing.

#8) Author
You will start to dislike patients — and by extension, people in general
#8) Me
I don't know about patients but I dislike the author

#9) People who do not even know you will start to dislike you
Me: With all the angry comments I'll get I find this to be already true and I'm not even a doctor

#10) You’re not helping people nearly as much as you think.
Me: I'm sure this could be true

As a premed, who has yet to experience med school, you sound foolish.

 

[DermViser]

What's interesting though, is that everyone with "pre-medical" as their status is saying the author is crazy and full of it and that can't possibly be true. Or I'm going to work so hard that it's not going to happen to me. Or I have some insider knowledge and I know better. A everyone who has "medical student" or "physician" as their status is saying some variation on the the theme that we felt the same way before medical school, but as soon as we got some experience on the wards, we can understand where the author is coming from, and there is some truth to what she says. So instead of dismissing this article outright, it would be wise to see what you can learn from it. I keep running into pre-med students who say things like, well, "I may not be in medical school, but I get up before class to work out, so I know exactly what it' **** to wake up early." Unless you're there, you just can't know, which is not your fault. But you also can't fault the people who are there for the way they feel about it.

You forget, you're on SDN, where premeds know everything.

 

[circulus vitios]

What about general neurology, peds subspecialties and critical care medicine?

I really don't know much about neurology or critical care. Peds sub-specialty depends on what you're looking at. I imagine peds cardiology and surgery are awful while peds derm, endo, etc. are good.

 

[username456789]

I was definitely one of those working class heroes who thought being a nontrad and of somewhat humble beginnings meant I was going to be immune to the cynicism all these residents/attending were expressing (despite being a natural born cynic anyway).

Believe me when I say, many (if not most) of you will succumb to it in some way, shape, or form. Hell, I'm in one of the "best" specialties out there and much of what the author says resonate with me. I entered medical school thinking "I don't care what specialty I end up in . . . any type of medicine excites me and I'd be thrilled with FM/IM. As it stands now, if I wasn't in Derm (or a similar field), I may very well be regretting my decision to go to medical school. I still love medicine in general and all of the science and whatnot, but there is a ton of BS involved with becoming a practicing clinician. Some of it is institutionally-implemented, some of it is patient-induced, but it all wears on you just the same.

Medicine is still a good career, and can be very fulfilling both personally/professionally and financially. But many of you are likely woefully underprepared for what you'll find on the other side of that MCAT.

Caveat emptor.

 

[NickNaylor]

I was definitely one of those working class heroes who thought being a nontrad and of somewhat humble beginnings meant I was going to be immune to the cynicism all these residents/attending were expressing (despite being a natural born cynic anyway).

Believe me when I say, many (if not most) of you will succumb to it in some way, shape, or form. Hell, I'm in one of the "best" specialties out there and much of what the author says resonate with me. I entered medical school thinking "I don't care what specialty I end up in . . . any type of medicine excites me and I'd be thrilled with FM/IM. As it stands now, if I wasn't in Derm (or a similar field), I may very well be regretting my decision to go to medical school. I still love medicine in general and all of the science and whatnot, but there is a ton of BS involved with becoming a practicing clinician. Some of it is institutionally-implemented, some of it is patient-induced, but it all wears on you just the same.

Medicine is still a good career, and can be very fulfilling both personally/professionally and financially. But many of you are likely woefully underprepared for what you'll find on the other side of that MCAT.

Caveat emptor.

He's a witch! Buuuuurrrrnnnn hiiiimmmmm!