Realistic Chance at Top 20 or so...?

[MisterJon]

3.7 gpa w/ community college
38O MCAT

Here's my ECs:

Shadowing
Research

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[Don15]

you have a 3.77 and a 38 on the MCAT. I dont know why you're worried...

 

[bannie22]

zero clinical volunteering.

zero admission prospect.

get that, and you will get in.

 

[MiniMoo]

My impressions right off the bat: your total lack of clinical volunteering needs to be remedied (shadowing is in its own category). Also only one summer of research may be fine for most schools, but may not be enough for a Top 20 research institution.

Is the 3.77 GPA including all the As, Bs, and Cs you received in community college? What's your BCPM?

 

[MisterJon]

,,,,,,,,

 

[MiniMoo]

Yes, the 3.77 is including my CC grades. Sorry, not sure what BCPM means?

Biology, Chemistry, Physics, and Math. When applying to medical schools, they will look at your overall GPA as well as your BCPM (aka science GPA). Both matter.

Could you give me a rough estimate of the # of hours I will need? I forgot to mention I am planning on starting volunteer work at a clinic tomorrow, and my goal is to get in about 5 hours a week for the next 9 weeks or so...

I would say 100-150 hours over a year is on the lower side of average. Not sure how well your application will be received with only 45 hours of clinical experience.

 

[MisterJon]

,,,,,

 

[DrBowtie]

You'll probably get interviews. At that point it is kind of a crapshoot to get accepted.
From my experience, you gotta have that "unique" factor to push you over the waitlist to acceptance hump in the top 20.

 

[MisterJon]

I see. Well in that case, would being top 10% of my class @ a state school with good board scores be "just as good" as a top 20?

Basically I want to be a neurosurgeon (I'm not saying this with 100% authority, I know things could easily change when I'm actually in med school), but I just want to give myself the best possible chance of reaching my goals.

 

[DrBowtie]

Thinking you will be top 10% is quite presumptuous. Med school is more about work ethic than intelligence and you'll be surprised at the amount of people who literally study 24/7 with zero interests outside of medicine.

Just apply broadly and choose your best option. Until then you're getting ahead of yourself.

 

[J ROD]

I see. Well in that case, would being top 10% of my class @ a state school with good board scores be "just as good" as a top 20?

Basically I want to be a neurosurgeon (I'm not saying this with 100% authority, I know things could easily change when I'm actually in med school), but I just want to give myself the best possible chance of reaching my goals. Plus I can see myself doing research. I watched a pretty awesome special on 60 minutes where researchers were using extracellular matrix from pigs to help heal battle wounds of Iraq veterans. I think doing something like that would be ****ing awesome.

you can still get there.....

For top schools you will need to get alot more clinical experience.....

 

[mdeast]

How do you shadow anyone for 120 hours?!?! That's like 4 hours a week for 30 weeks. Are you sure your defining shadowing as the correct thing?

 

[bannie22]

Thinking you will be top 10% is quite presumptuous. Med school is more about work ethic than intelligence and you'll be surprised at the amount of people who literally study 24/7 with zero interests outside of medicine.

Just apply broadly and choose your best option. Until then you're getting ahead of yourself.

and i thought i was done with that after convocation...

i guess the interviews dont necessarily weed them all out huh?

 

[dokein]

Plus I can see myself doing research [because] I watched a pretty awesome special on 60 minutes.

 

[Morsetlis]

How do you shadow anyone for 120 hours?!?! That's like 4 hours a week for 30 weeks. Are you sure your defining shadowing as the correct thing?

Do rounds + pop in every single case in the clinic. That's about 15 hours in two days a week for me, over like 10+ weeks.

 

[mdeast]

Do rounds + pop in every single case in the clinic. That's about 15 hours in two days a week for me, over like 10+ weeks.

That just seems like super overkill to me. Shadowing is meant to get a taste of what a specialty is like (at least at the pre-med stage). Attending rounds isn't very useful (time and time again) unless you have extensive medical knowledge...you won't understand what most of the students/resident/attendings are even talking about. Medicine is a foreign language if you haven't been through med school. I did do a 2-week, extended shadowing gig as undergrad...which amounted to 80 hours. But, that was mainly to get me used to the idea of the sort of jobs that residents do, the time schedules they work on, the pace of a hospital. It was everyday, and 8 hours/day for 2 weeks straight. I did a ton of shadowing, but to be honest...just sitting in a room during a consultation and having no real participation in it gets old, pretty fast. You just won't get too much out of it unless you have a doc who's very into teaching you (and not the residents and med students he has to take care of).

To the OP, i'd suggest trying to get a clinical or clinically related gig that's more patient involved. I've done the ER hospital volunteer thing...and can assure you those programs can be hit or miss in the meaningfulness of what you'll be doing.

My favorite pre-med "patient" activity is one I started last year: I work 5 hours/week as a counselor at a free HIV testing center...where I get to interview patients, talk to them about safe sex/disease, perform tests, give them results. I think that's taught me how to interact with patients (and really ridiculous patients at that) more than anything else. All of my interviewers seemed pretty impressed by it. Few other places give you a chance to talk to a convict turned prostitute, 14 year old girl and grandmother, and male to female transexual in one afternoon as a pre-med.

 

[Morsetlis]

zero clinical volunteering.

zero admission prospect.

get that, and you will get in.

I completely agree 100%.

 

[Catalystik]

OP, top schools aim to train future leaders in medicine. Beyond great numbers you haven't told us anything that suggests you have that potential.

Even your state school will expect clinical experience, community service, and some among the leadership, teaching, and research categories. What about hobbies, sports, and artistic endeavors to make yourself look well rounded and interesting? Did you do anything besides study and a summer or research? I'm glad you got a good amount of shadowing in, at least.

 

[88pich14]

You don't necessarily need 150 hours of clinical volunteering to be competitive. I volunteered in a hospital for two summers totaling about 80 hours and didn't have any problem. You have some shadowing experience and are starting to volunteer in a clinic now. I think this in addition to your summer clinical volunteering gig should be sufficient. Just be sure you can explain why you want to be a doctor in your ps.

I think you may have a problem with your lack of any significant research or leadership experience. Adcoms use these as indicators of your potential to become a leader in medicine, and the top 20 schools want to produce leaders in science and medicine, not simply future private practice docs.

 

[MisterJon]

OP, top schools aim to train future leaders in medicine. Beyond great numbers you haven't told us anything that suggests you have that potential.

Even your state school will expect clinical experience, community service, and some among the leadership, teaching, and research categories. What about hobbies, sports, and artistic endeavors to make yourself look well rounded and interesting? Did you do anything besides study and a summer or research? I'm glad you got a good amount of shadowing in, at least.

I guess I am just not understanding how shadowing is not the same as "clinical." Regardless, I should be getting 300 hours of clinical experience this summer (paid, though) and I'm starting volunteering at a clinic for the uninsured this week.

 

[Catalystik]

Shadowing is a passive observership. You are not helping the patient. You are not providing a community service. You are there to see what the day to day life of a physician entails. You are there to gain familiarity with a physician role.

Clinical experience requires that you interact with sick people. You engage them in conversation. You help them. You become at ease with them. You are focused on the patient, not on the doctor.

The experiences you plan are great. Are you planning to apply after your complete the planned hours so they can all be on your application?

Nonmedical community service is also highly valued. Put the food bank volunteerism on your application too. It may be the sole reason you get an acceptance despite the last minute clinical experience. And include the running. Try to let your passion for the activity come out in your description.

 

[MiniMoo]

I guess I am just not understanding how shadowing is not the same as "clinical." Regardless, I should be getting 300 hours of clinical experience this summer (paid, though) and I'm starting volunteering at a clinic for the uninsured this week.

That's great that you're addressing the weaknesses in your app. Keep in mind, though, that the number of hours you have by the time you apply is what your application is going to be primary judged on.

 

[alibai3ah]

Yes, the 3.77 is including my CC grades. Sorry, not sure what BCPM means?



Could you give me a rough estimate of the # of hours I will need? I forgot to mention I am planning on starting volunteer work at a clinic tomorrow, and my goal is to get in about 5 hours a week for the next 9 weeks or so...

Your EC's are on the weak side..... I think you will have a very hard time getting into a Top 20.

I don't mean to come in a bad way. You have the numbers, but that doesn't mean anything. All I see is a smart guy who shows little interest for medicine.

Research - how long was your research? what was your role? if it was only for one summer that is too short... You need at least a year or two.

Clinical- shadowing is nothing, try volunteering at free clinics or community health centers. Show a real committment, which is what these schools look for.

Again I personally would take off an extra year to soup of your EC's, if you REALLY want Top 20. Otherwise, I'm sure you'd be fine at your state schools.

 

[MisterJon]

Clinical experience requires that you interact with sick people. You engage them in conversation. You help them. You become at ease with them. You are focused on the patient, not on the doctor.

Can I count some of my shadowing hours as clinical, then? I spent 40 hours a week for 3 weeks at a doctor's office, going into the exam room with the doctor, and I did actually frequently talk to patients + sometimes I would help hold down cerebral palsy patients so they could get botox injections for spasticity.

Thank-you everyone for your help. Next year, I plan to research all year + more volunteering but it will be too late for my app this summer. I just really, really don't want to take a full year off. I would cut off one of my toes with a rusty butter knife if I could even start med school in the fall, instead of another year here...

Are you planning to apply after your complete the planned hours so they can all be on your application?

Keep in mind, though, that the number of hours you have by the time you apply is what your application is going to be primary judged on.

That's the problem, my app will only show the ~45 clinical hours I get this semester.

 

[MiniMoo]

Can I count some of my shadowing hours as clinical, then? I spent 40 hours a week for 3 weeks at a doctor's office, going into the exam room with the doctor, and I did actually frequently talk to patients + sometimes I would help hold down cerebral palsy patients so they could get botox injections for spasticity.

That still just sounds like shadowing to me. You're following the doctor around, assisting him/her in some procedures, but overall your main purpose there is to see what the physician does daily. Clinical experience would be spent on your own, up close and personal with sick people -- reading to them, feeding them, talking to their families, playing games with kids who are in the hospital for chemo treatments, helping nurses change diapers/bed pans/bedding, washing the feet of diabetic patients with ulcers, spending hours holding sick babies in the nicu, educating new mothers in the hospital about breastfeeding, spending time with hospice patients by their bedside, etc. These are just examples, but you get the idea.

 

[MisterJon]

^I see. Well, hopefully my 45 hours will pull me through ha. I guess I could always apply, see how it goes, and if I need to try again the next cycle...makes me extremely depressed even thinking about doing that though. If I don't stay busy + feel like I'm accomplishing something worthwhile I go insane.

 

[Morsetlis]

Instead of putting total hours just put an estimate of total running hours (10/week for example) and say that you'll commit to providing 200 hours by the end of the year 2010, or something. True, it's weaker than if you've actually done it, but still...

 

[indianjatt]

and i thought i was done with that after convocation...

i guess the interviews dont necessarily weed them all out huh?

Nope, they all no life preparing for their interviews 24/7.